I like how you "lay" the blame on the corps girl who seduced you rather than take responsibility for your actions. You do see how you're a fornicator, don't you, Oldiemsan? (I'm ignoring the part where you took responsibility for it, just like you ignored the part where Imbus took responsibility for her actions).
But can't you see when a leader takes advantage of the follower that is the big sin.
Yes God will hold us all accountable for our actions, but to focus on the victim and let the criminal goes free is why it so hard for women to come forward when they are raped or abused.
Get out of the Stone Age and see the world for what it is.
And take a fresh look at PFAL and see how vpw uses most of it to tear at the word to pump up his own (wink, wink) conclusions.
He sets himself up as the man of God, receives adulation and glory from his minions and then returns the favor by taking advantage of it.
quote:I like how you "lay" the blame on the corps girl who seduced you rather than take responsibility for your actions. You do see how you're a fornicator, don't you, Oldiemsan? (I'm ignoring the part where you took responsibility for it, just like you ignored the part where Imbus took responsibility for her actions).
Raf, yes I do see exactly that I committed fornication. I take responsibility for it; I made a boo boo. I guess to be honest, I take 50% responsibility; 50% was on the girl.
Well, oldiesman, do you think the "every woman in the kingdom belonged to the king" scenario was actually abused by people in TWI, or do you think the twisting of that story is an invention of the gscafe?
This was a perfectly good thread that Uncle Hairy started. It had some terrific posts, great examples the topic at hand. Then there were gut-wrenching incidents to confirm that the topic was not only relevant, but proven to be truthful.
Then it became all about Oldies. He made one stupid, mindless, heartless, uncaring, misogynistic, devilish post (more adjectives are needed, but not enough space is allowed). This threw off the whole point that was started in this thread. "TWI taught us to be abusers".
Think about what that proves! If Oldies hadn't been taught to be an abuser, he might have some compassion and empathy for imbus and what she has been through. He was obviously taught abuse somewhere along the way, or he wouldn't be so unyielding in his opinions.
Abusers have a great capacity for self deception and denial.
Abusers think that their victims deserved their abuse.
Abusers make themselves victims by blaming others -(..."even the corps girl who seduced me...").
Abusers lack awarenes of others' personal boundaries.
Abusers feel no remorse even after they recognize abusive episodes.
Abusers will never admit they have made mistakes.
Abusers accept no blame for failures.
There are more - too many to type. Just google "abusers characteristics".
Oldies has done what another poster does with threads that criticize TWI too much for their taste - he has made the topic revolve around him.
He will not change his mind about what he believes short of handwriting on the wall. No matter how it is said, no matter how much people try to reason with him - he won't believe what all of us have been trying to relate to him. Why? Because he was taught how to abuse others from TWI, just like many of us were. He just doesn't see it, and probably never will.
No reply is necessary, Oldies. I already know what you are going to say - it's really simple to figure out.
I see you have no intention of admitting that what LEADerSHIP did to my CHILDren WAS TOTally wrong on their part---
I suspect that maybe you are closer to this whole isssue in AK that you want to admit --there is something about your phraseolgy the way you write that is vaguely familier--
I amy be wrong but then again....
Anyway I now know you for what you are --someone who must blame the victims, even children, to cover and excuse your own indiscretions --just how far up in leadership were you?
quote:Raf, yes I do see exactly that I committed fornication. I take responsibility for it; I made a boo boo. I guess to be honest, I take 50% responsibility; 50% was on the girl.
Still blaming the girl, Oldiesman? Why not take responsibility for your actions? Why don't you stop blaming the girl? This is about YOU after all. You're the fornicator who won't accept responsibility for your actions. Own up and accept some responsibility!
(You know, this is stupid, right? You just said you accepted responsibility, but I'm harping on you blaming the girl. Not fair, is it, when I only read part of what you say and ignore the rest. Just like it's not fair that you ignore Imbus' remorse and instead focus in on your usurped role as her Accuser.)
I think one of the biggest abuse promoters was the arrogance. Not just that we supposedly knew more about the Bible than anybody else, but that the BEST thing we could do for someone else was to "speak the Word" to them. Instant problem resolution. Not empathize with them, not give them a helping hand, but tell them off. In love, of course!
And if they didn't get all fixed right away, we walked away from them. They were "tripped out." They were "off the Word." We were soooo much better than they. No wonder everyone was afraid to admit to any problems. Who wanted to be lectured to when they were in the midst of suffering?
In the gospels, however, it was said of Jesus that his "bowels moved" for people. That speaks to me. He felt so strongly for people and their troubles, his guts churned. He listened to them, he partied with them, he cried with them. Sounds messy. Sounds wonderful.
Oh Shazzy! Arrogance! One of the worst side-effects of being in TWI. In certain areas, especially religion, I'm still not over it - but I'm trying.
As far as abuse goes- yeah - I guess abuse breeds the arrogance. The more someone abuses others, the more arrogant they become about what they can get away with. I know VP was arrogant, but *in my opinion* LCM had it down pat!
At least VP faked humility. Craiggers lauded himself, his teachings, his dancing, his golf swing, his (fill in the blank) to the sky! Gosh - it sorta reminds me of Donald Trump now that I think about it. Trump says things like "my apartment is the most elegant apartment in NYC" or "Mara-Lago is the most beautiful country club in the United States" and "My golf course is the best golf course anywhere in the world"!
We know the Donald is full of himself - and we can laugh at him. But when LCM or any of our so-called leaders told us how wonderful they were (or their wives, kids, dogs, etc.) - we believed it! Why? Because their arrogance flowed down to us. Our leaders were the best in the world. Our ministry was the only ministry to have God's word since the first Century. Our MOG saw snow in July!!!!
And the Corps soaked it all up! People who were already arrogant when they went into the program learned that abuse was perfectly okay if you were "on the Word". We weren't just taught, we learned by example.
Yes, we were taught arrogance and abuse. They really do go hand in hand.
How dare anyone criticize the MOG's actions - he is without reproach! Abusive - naw - you just can't handle it. You're spiritually immature! Remember - feelings come and go. Emotions are only "icing on the cake" of life. Control your emotions - don't let things "get" to you. Get the weakness out of your life!!!
Man - I can almost hear it in my head (oops - I must be possessed!).
And you're right, Jesus probably empathized better than anyone who ever lived. He knew when people were hungry, hurt, tired, sad - and even better - he knew what to do for them. TWI didn't even have a clue.
Many of us were never sexually abused in TWI, but we were abused in many, many other ways. I had my self-esteem torn from me to the point where I thought I couldn't do anything right. I could never be good enough. I was so smashed down by my leaders that any confidence I had in the abilities I may have shown in the past was gone. Poof. Destroyed.
It's like if you kept telling your kids over and over and over again that they're under-achievers, that they have no talent, half a brain and are ugly - how do you think they would they turn out? How long do you think it would take until they were affected by your words? Not long, trust me. You never have to raise a hand to them - or even raise your voice. But you would be considered abusive just the same.
I would venture to say that more of us who were in TWI suffered that kind of abuse than anything else. Those of us not in the "inner circle" of abusers weren't left alone. There was always someone around to berate us! *sigh*
Bingo! And it looks like Oldies is the textbook case of being the model student of Power For Abusive Living. -->
OM,
Face it chief! Any attempts at disguising your true motive for your posts: the whitewashing of the reputation of your preciousssssss master Wierwille, is so transparent, its pathetic.
PFAL is long dead. If you can't learn truth and positive living significantly from any other source other than Wierwille's PFAL, then you are in a pathetic situation indeed.
:P-->
And you do owe Imbus an apology. Frankly, if this was my message board, your a** would be banned until you did make that apology --- publically. But hey, that's me.
But I do thank you for reminding me why I'm glad that I am no longer part of TWI.
“Re:"I dont recall ever seeing anyone clean anyone else's house,"
”Geeze, what ministry were you in? I remember "volunteering" to clean the limb home in Washington starting back in 1975. Also got roped into it while in Alabama a few years later, and knew of people doing it CONSTANTLY. It was de rigueur in WayWorld, anywhere I lived...”
I have spoken with Bonnie to see what she recalls.
Specifically in 1981, A Twig Coord (the Lipholds) were moving and everyone got together to help them clean their apartment. They lived in Navy-housing and to check out of Navy-Housing the apartment needed to be cleaned spotless. The Lipholds provided beer and pizza, and we all cleaned their apartment. It is a fairly common occurrence when anyone is moved out of government housing. The host normally provides beer and pizza for all members of the working-party.
Again in 1992 timeframe, our LC was Wilson + Georgia Whitehead, they were asking around
At a Twig Coord Meeting, once for help packing someone up, and offered the beer and pizza. The Whiteheads were pretty cool as LC’s, they loaned me a TWI tape once (LCM teaching how to perform a wedding. They knew that I had done many weddings and they offered me this tape to possibly learn a ‘better’ procedure and to see TWI’s official stance on doing weddings). In 1992, the Whiteheads were replaced with a different set of Corps-grads (I don’t recall the name) when they learned that I had performed a wedding immediately before a Twig-Coord meeting they insisted that by doing weddings I was insulting the few TWI clergy, and they threw us out of TWI.
These are the only times that either I or Bonnie recall the topic of ‘house-cleaning’ (meaning cleaning someone else’s house).
The 1981 occurrence is just what sailors do to help other sailors. They may have been TCs, but we did the same for any other sailor.
The only time we heard of this among believers involving Corps was the occurrence in ‘92. The various places where we were stationed between 1981 – 1990 it was not done. And again between 1992 - 1997 we never heard of it.
I apologize for not remembering these details initaily, sometimes I need help from my wonderful wife to remind me of details of things we have done over the years.
quote:There are many examples of correction in the Bible. Take David, for instance. David was off the ball. He found beautiful Bathsheba and then had her husband shot while in the front lines of battle so that he, David, could have Bathsheba as his wife. A few people knew about the sequence of events leading to David’s marriage, but nobody had a right to say anything because David was king and every woman in the kingdom was technically the property of the king or belonged to the king." (PFAL - P86)
As the story goes in the Bible, David; 1, Coveted another man's wife. 2. Commited adultery with her. 3. Murdered her husband by sending him where he would certainly be killled so that he could marry her.
Wierwielle says that a few people knew about what happened and then claims that nobody had a right to say anything because David was King and every woman in the Kingdom was the property of the King.
If Wierwille was right and every woman in the Kingdom "belonged to the King" then David was justified in "fooling around" with Bathsheba and. Wierwille is implying that here that David as King was above both the 7th and 10th commandments. However, Wierwille was dead wrong. There nothing in scripture that suggests that King David owned the women, or that he as King was exempt from the 7th and 10th commandments.
Wierwille goes on to say:
quote:"... At that moment David recognized the truth of what Nathan was bringing from God and David said, “Well, I am sorry.” He turned to God and asked God to forgive him. Then it says in the Word of God that David was a man after God’s own heart. He was not after God’s heart when he was out fooling around with Bathsheba and having Uriah killed; no, but when he was back in line, David was a man after God’s own heart. When we rightly divide The Word and we walk in the power of it – then we are men and women after God’s own heart.(PFAL P-88)
It is interesting that Wierwille calls David's adultery "fooling around" and not the adultery that it really was. David was just privately "fooling around" with one of of the women in his Kingdom that he technically owned.
It seems that Wierwille took his own teaching here to heart. Look at it again. (Words in brackets added by me.)
"A few people [ Inner circle] knew about the sequence of events [covetousness, adultery, and murder] leading to David’s marriage, but nobody had a right to say anything [Lock Box] because David was king [Top Leader - MOG] and every woman in the kingdom was technically the property of the King or belonged to the king."
Uncanny parallel isn't it?
Wierwille was the MOG and his Kingdom was TWI. His had a inner circle that knew of his adultery but were silent - some followed his adulterous lead. His female subjects were typically Way Corps.
Thats where the parallel ends. The difference between Wierwille and David was that David repented and Wierwille didn't. Also to be fair, Wierwille didn't have anyone killed (that we know of.) But when a modern day Nathan confronted Wierwille, or if one of his female subjects refused him they were discredited ( false witness) and shamed out of the ministry.
Oldies, there is your wonderful hero and your precious PFAL ...
It was expected that we the twigites would clean the LIMB/BRANCH home. I did it once with most of the other ANchorage Women. Then it was a once a year thing.
I was in the kitchen--what quickly became clear to all of us is that other than the living room and guest bathroom (Fellowship areas) the house hadn't been cleaned since that last time twigites were drafted. THe cupboards were literaly black with spilled food and grime ,took steelwool to get it off. THe Jenn Air range grease resevoir was full and overflowing in puddles to the floor and seeping under the stove --amazing the whole thing hadn't caught on fire.
THe rest of the house was in similar condition.
We cleaned the house and there must have been a lot of woman voicing their gripes to their husbands. Because suddenly it became a monthly thing and Everyone else's housekeeping skills became an issue.
Mind you there was never a thank you for the 10+ hours put in by a group of 15-20 women just a increased scrutiny about our own houses cleanliness.
4:45 PM TC: I need you to bring 3 dozen homeade cookies to the meeting tonight at the limb.
MO: you're calling me less than an hour before the event , an event I might add that I barred from, and expect me to drop everything to make cookies!!!!
TC: I'm giving you and opportunity to Bless the believers. YOu need to be here by 5:50 for the meeting.
MO: so what you are saying is that suddenly I'm good enough to come to the meeting I was barred from because you need cookies?? Have your wife make them
NOise in back ground HUSBAND: I'am on the way to get you --you best be ready to go--I have so and so coming to watch the kids.
MO: I don't....
HUSBAND: if you know whats godo for you you'll be ready--bad enough we are going to have to bring store bought cookies because as usual your lack of meekness left you unprepared.
HAnds phone to TC: You really need to work on YOur believing MO--You should just be so blessed that you are given this opportunity to bless this household.
SO I end up yelling at crying angry children because their little hearts are broken that they again miss a chance to be with Mommy alone...of course given waht happened it is the Alone with Mommy concept that really scared the powers that be....
In all seriousness I have deleted probably a full page in total from this and the other posts to you. You're not worth the effort to type it. Really.
Here's the deal.
God is not happy with the job you're doing. He certainly does not approve of your behavior.
Seriously. When you feel like harming others, go somewhere else. When you feel like helping and healing, come here. And leave your blame cards somewhere else.
I'm always a day late and a dollar short, Grizzy! If I'd waited to go in, I could have been a king?????? Figures, my luck. :(--> Craig definitely knew how to build a better machine alright. Kings! I guess that was the problem with the gays in the Way. No queens! Kings only here!!!
Although wasn't it taught that the whole deal with the kings in the O.T. was that God never wanted Kings to rule over His people, but that's what they wanted so He tried to make it work? Second will of God stuff. Second best, "good" but not the best? Wasn't that the teaching? How'd he reconcile that? Old Wineskin!! (slap my butt and call me Judy!) Now I get it!
TWI didn't force us to be abusers, but it taught us as surely as an abusive parent teaches the children he or she abuses to be abusers themselves.
Sure, on some level we all, or most of us anyway, figured it out and became model citizens :D-->, but what vestiges remained?
I have to make a conscious effort every day to not lead as the TWI leaders did, by yelling and intimidation. I don't wake up in the morning and say "Gee, I'm going to verbally abuse and coerce my employees into doing my will", I know that doing things that way is wrong,a nd certainly counterproductive, but the habit is still there to be overcome, the instinct is still there to be reasoned away.
I don't recall anyone ever sitting me down and overtly teaching me that abusing people at any level was the good and godly way to treat the "believers", but the example that was set taught the lesson just as clearly.
What about the "good ol' days" of the so-called TWI-1? I see at least one poster here learned well the lesson of "blame the victim" that was around even before the spit 'n' slobber of "The Brow" Martindale's reign.
There was good in PFAL, there was even good things taught during the Martindale era, but there were teachings seeded throughout that class that were the groundwork for future abuses.
Hell yes it was taught by VP. At PFAL live in 77 the camera person took the camera off of VP (maybe) for a second and he in front of thousands and thousands berated that person talked to them and us like we were dogs. I'm the man of god (not mine) you took the camera off me. Everone of us should of got up and left at that time. It was a lesson on abuse big time.
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Raf
I like how you "lay" the blame on the corps girl who seduced you rather than take responsibility for your actions. You do see how you're a fornicator, don't you, Oldiemsan? (I'm ignoring the part where you took responsibility for it, just like you ignored the part where Imbus took responsibility for her actions).
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oldiesman
Yes. And I do so without using PFAL as the catalyst.
Yes.
Yes.
I agree.
I think we mostly have agreement here, def 59.
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def59
Om
But can't you see when a leader takes advantage of the follower that is the big sin.
Yes God will hold us all accountable for our actions, but to focus on the victim and let the criminal goes free is why it so hard for women to come forward when they are raped or abused.
Get out of the Stone Age and see the world for what it is.
And take a fresh look at PFAL and see how vpw uses most of it to tear at the word to pump up his own (wink, wink) conclusions.
He sets himself up as the man of God, receives adulation and glory from his minions and then returns the favor by taking advantage of it.
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oldiesman
Raf, yes I do see exactly that I committed fornication. I take responsibility for it; I made a boo boo. I guess to be honest, I take 50% responsibility; 50% was on the girl.
NONE, on PFAL.
Have a great evening, I'm done for now.
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Raf
Well, oldiesman, do you think the "every woman in the kingdom belonged to the king" scenario was actually abused by people in TWI, or do you think the twisting of that story is an invention of the gscafe?
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excathedra
thank you imbus, hugs hugs hugs and more hugs
ps. to nobody in particular, there is so much more to some of this discussion than bible and twi
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Hope R.
This was a perfectly good thread that Uncle Hairy started. It had some terrific posts, great examples the topic at hand. Then there were gut-wrenching incidents to confirm that the topic was not only relevant, but proven to be truthful.
Then it became all about Oldies. He made one stupid, mindless, heartless, uncaring, misogynistic, devilish post (more adjectives are needed, but not enough space is allowed). This threw off the whole point that was started in this thread. "TWI taught us to be abusers".
Think about what that proves! If Oldies hadn't been taught to be an abuser, he might have some compassion and empathy for imbus and what she has been through. He was obviously taught abuse somewhere along the way, or he wouldn't be so unyielding in his opinions.
Abusers have a great capacity for self deception and denial.
Abusers think that their victims deserved their abuse.
Abusers make themselves victims by blaming others -(..."even the corps girl who seduced me...").
Abusers lack awarenes of others' personal boundaries.
Abusers feel no remorse even after they recognize abusive episodes.
Abusers will never admit they have made mistakes.
Abusers accept no blame for failures.
There are more - too many to type. Just google "abusers characteristics".
Oldies has done what another poster does with threads that criticize TWI too much for their taste - he has made the topic revolve around him.
He will not change his mind about what he believes short of handwriting on the wall. No matter how it is said, no matter how much people try to reason with him - he won't believe what all of us have been trying to relate to him. Why? Because he was taught how to abuse others from TWI, just like many of us were. He just doesn't see it, and probably never will.
No reply is necessary, Oldies. I already know what you are going to say - it's really simple to figure out.
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templelady
OLdiesman,
I see you have no intention of admitting that what LEADerSHIP did to my CHILDren WAS TOTally wrong on their part---
I suspect that maybe you are closer to this whole isssue in AK that you want to admit --there is something about your phraseolgy the way you write that is vaguely familier--
I amy be wrong but then again....
Anyway I now know you for what you are --someone who must blame the victims, even children, to cover and excuse your own indiscretions --just how far up in leadership were you?
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Raf
Still blaming the girl, Oldiesman? Why not take responsibility for your actions? Why don't you stop blaming the girl? This is about YOU after all. You're the fornicator who won't accept responsibility for your actions. Own up and accept some responsibility!
(You know, this is stupid, right? You just said you accepted responsibility, but I'm harping on you blaming the girl. Not fair, is it, when I only read part of what you say and ignore the rest. Just like it's not fair that you ignore Imbus' remorse and instead focus in on your usurped role as her Accuser.)
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alfakat
There is none so blind as those who will NOT to see......
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shazdancer
Dear Hope,
I think one of the biggest abuse promoters was the arrogance. Not just that we supposedly knew more about the Bible than anybody else, but that the BEST thing we could do for someone else was to "speak the Word" to them. Instant problem resolution. Not empathize with them, not give them a helping hand, but tell them off. In love, of course!
And if they didn't get all fixed right away, we walked away from them. They were "tripped out." They were "off the Word." We were soooo much better than they. No wonder everyone was afraid to admit to any problems. Who wanted to be lectured to when they were in the midst of suffering?
In the gospels, however, it was said of Jesus that his "bowels moved" for people. That speaks to me. He felt so strongly for people and their troubles, his guts churned. He listened to them, he partied with them, he cried with them. Sounds messy. Sounds wonderful.
Regards,
Shaz
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Hope R.
Oh Shazzy! Arrogance! One of the worst side-effects of being in TWI. In certain areas, especially religion, I'm still not over it - but I'm trying.
As far as abuse goes- yeah - I guess abuse breeds the arrogance. The more someone abuses others, the more arrogant they become about what they can get away with. I know VP was arrogant, but *in my opinion* LCM had it down pat!
At least VP faked humility. Craiggers lauded himself, his teachings, his dancing, his golf swing, his (fill in the blank) to the sky! Gosh - it sorta reminds me of Donald Trump now that I think about it. Trump says things like "my apartment is the most elegant apartment in NYC" or "Mara-Lago is the most beautiful country club in the United States" and "My golf course is the best golf course anywhere in the world"!
We know the Donald is full of himself - and we can laugh at him. But when LCM or any of our so-called leaders told us how wonderful they were (or their wives, kids, dogs, etc.) - we believed it! Why? Because their arrogance flowed down to us. Our leaders were the best in the world. Our ministry was the only ministry to have God's word since the first Century. Our MOG saw snow in July!!!!
And the Corps soaked it all up! People who were already arrogant when they went into the program learned that abuse was perfectly okay if you were "on the Word". We weren't just taught, we learned by example.
Yes, we were taught arrogance and abuse. They really do go hand in hand.
How dare anyone criticize the MOG's actions - he is without reproach! Abusive - naw - you just can't handle it. You're spiritually immature! Remember - feelings come and go. Emotions are only "icing on the cake" of life. Control your emotions - don't let things "get" to you. Get the weakness out of your life!!!
Man - I can almost hear it in my head (oops - I must be possessed!).
And you're right, Jesus probably empathized better than anyone who ever lived. He knew when people were hungry, hurt, tired, sad - and even better - he knew what to do for them. TWI didn't even have a clue.
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Hope R.
And another thing...
Many of us were never sexually abused in TWI, but we were abused in many, many other ways. I had my self-esteem torn from me to the point where I thought I couldn't do anything right. I could never be good enough. I was so smashed down by my leaders that any confidence I had in the abilities I may have shown in the past was gone. Poof. Destroyed.
It's like if you kept telling your kids over and over and over again that they're under-achievers, that they have no talent, half a brain and are ugly - how do you think they would they turn out? How long do you think it would take until they were affected by your words? Not long, trust me. You never have to raise a hand to them - or even raise your voice. But you would be considered abusive just the same.
I would venture to say that more of us who were in TWI suffered that kind of abuse than anything else. Those of us not in the "inner circle" of abusers weren't left alone. There was always someone around to berate us! *sigh*
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GarthP2000
Hope,
Bingo! And it looks like Oldies is the textbook case of being the model student of Power For Abusive Living.
-->
OM,
Face it chief! Any attempts at disguising your true motive for your posts: the whitewashing of the reputation of your preciousssssss master Wierwille, is so transparent, its pathetic.
PFAL is long dead. If you can't learn truth and positive living significantly from any other source other than Wierwille's PFAL, then you are in a pathetic situation indeed.
And you do owe Imbus an apology. Frankly, if this was my message board, your a** would be banned until you did make that apology --- publically. But hey, that's me.
But I do thank you for reminding me why I'm glad that I am no longer part of TWI.
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Galen
Geo-
“Re:"I dont recall ever seeing anyone clean anyone else's house,"
”Geeze, what ministry were you in? I remember "volunteering" to clean the limb home in Washington starting back in 1975. Also got roped into it while in Alabama a few years later, and knew of people doing it CONSTANTLY. It was de rigueur in WayWorld, anywhere I lived...”
I have spoken with Bonnie to see what she recalls.
Specifically in 1981, A Twig Coord (the Lipholds) were moving and everyone got together to help them clean their apartment. They lived in Navy-housing and to check out of Navy-Housing the apartment needed to be cleaned spotless. The Lipholds provided beer and pizza, and we all cleaned their apartment. It is a fairly common occurrence when anyone is moved out of government housing. The host normally provides beer and pizza for all members of the working-party.
Again in 1992 timeframe, our LC was Wilson + Georgia Whitehead, they were asking around
At a Twig Coord Meeting, once for help packing someone up, and offered the beer and pizza. The Whiteheads were pretty cool as LC’s, they loaned me a TWI tape once (LCM teaching how to perform a wedding. They knew that I had done many weddings and they offered me this tape to possibly learn a ‘better’ procedure and to see TWI’s official stance on doing weddings). In 1992, the Whiteheads were replaced with a different set of Corps-grads (I don’t recall the name) when they learned that I had performed a wedding immediately before a Twig-Coord meeting they insisted that by doing weddings I was insulting the few TWI clergy, and they threw us out of TWI.
These are the only times that either I or Bonnie recall the topic of ‘house-cleaning’ (meaning cleaning someone else’s house).
The 1981 occurrence is just what sailors do to help other sailors. They may have been TCs, but we did the same for any other sailor.
The only time we heard of this among believers involving Corps was the occurrence in ‘92. The various places where we were stationed between 1981 – 1990 it was not done. And again between 1992 - 1997 we never heard of it.
I apologize for not remembering these details initaily, sometimes I need help from my wonderful wife to remind me of details of things we have done over the years.
:-)
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Goey
For Oldies,
From PFAL:
As the story goes in the Bible, David; 1, Coveted another man's wife. 2. Commited adultery with her. 3. Murdered her husband by sending him where he would certainly be killled so that he could marry her.Wierwielle says that a few people knew about what happened and then claims that nobody had a right to say anything because David was King and every woman in the Kingdom was the property of the King.
If Wierwille was right and every woman in the Kingdom "belonged to the King" then David was justified in "fooling around" with Bathsheba and. Wierwille is implying that here that David as King was above both the 7th and 10th commandments. However, Wierwille was dead wrong. There nothing in scripture that suggests that King David owned the women, or that he as King was exempt from the 7th and 10th commandments.
Wierwille goes on to say:
It is interesting that Wierwille calls David's adultery "fooling around" and not the adultery that it really was. David was just privately "fooling around" with one of of the women in his Kingdom that he technically owned.
It seems that Wierwille took his own teaching here to heart. Look at it again. (Words in brackets added by me.)
"A few people [ Inner circle] knew about the sequence of events [covetousness, adultery, and murder] leading to David’s marriage, but nobody had a right to say anything [Lock Box] because David was king [Top Leader - MOG] and every woman in the kingdom was technically the property of the King or belonged to the king."
Uncanny parallel isn't it?
Wierwille was the MOG and his Kingdom was TWI. His had a inner circle that knew of his adultery but were silent - some followed his adulterous lead. His female subjects were typically Way Corps.
Thats where the parallel ends. The difference between Wierwille and David was that David repented and Wierwille didn't. Also to be fair, Wierwille didn't have anyone killed (that we know of.) But when a modern day Nathan confronted Wierwille, or if one of his female subjects refused him they were discredited ( false witness) and shamed out of the ministry.
Oldies, there is your wonderful hero and your precious PFAL ...
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templelady
It was expected that we the twigites would clean the LIMB/BRANCH home. I did it once with most of the other ANchorage Women. Then it was a once a year thing.
I was in the kitchen--what quickly became clear to all of us is that other than the living room and guest bathroom (Fellowship areas) the house hadn't been cleaned since that last time twigites were drafted. THe cupboards were literaly black with spilled food and grime ,took steelwool to get it off. THe Jenn Air range grease resevoir was full and overflowing in puddles to the floor and seeping under the stove --amazing the whole thing hadn't caught on fire.
THe rest of the house was in similar condition.
We cleaned the house and there must have been a lot of woman voicing their gripes to their husbands. Because suddenly it became a monthly thing and Everyone else's housekeeping skills became an issue.
Mind you there was never a thank you for the 10+ hours put in by a group of 15-20 women just a increased scrutiny about our own houses cleanliness.
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templelady
Phone Conversation
4:45 PM TC: I need you to bring 3 dozen homeade cookies to the meeting tonight at the limb.
MO: you're calling me less than an hour before the event , an event I might add that I barred from, and expect me to drop everything to make cookies!!!!
TC: I'm giving you and opportunity to Bless the believers. YOu need to be here by 5:50 for the meeting.
MO: so what you are saying is that suddenly I'm good enough to come to the meeting I was barred from because you need cookies?? Have your wife make them
NOise in back ground HUSBAND: I'am on the way to get you --you best be ready to go--I have so and so coming to watch the kids.
MO: I don't....
HUSBAND: if you know whats godo for you you'll be ready--bad enough we are going to have to bring store bought cookies because as usual your lack of meekness left you unprepared.
HAnds phone to TC: You really need to work on YOur believing MO--You should just be so blessed that you are given this opportunity to bless this household.
SO I end up yelling at crying angry children because their little hearts are broken that they again miss a chance to be with Mommy alone...of course given waht happened it is the Alone with Mommy concept that really scared the powers that be....
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Tom Strange
Ya know OM (and I am in NO WAY joking)...
In all seriousness I have deleted probably a full page in total from this and the other posts to you. You're not worth the effort to type it. Really.
Here's the deal.
God is not happy with the job you're doing. He certainly does not approve of your behavior.
Seriously. When you feel like harming others, go somewhere else. When you feel like helping and healing, come here. And leave your blame cards somewhere else.
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Grizzy
LCM taught the WC anything concerning a king in the OT could be read as written to WC...... mid to late 90's that was the WC teaching.
PFAL, all the women belonged to the king.........
LCM to the WC.............. you are the king
do we need Eienstein to find the sum???? .
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socks
I'm always a day late and a dollar short, Grizzy! If I'd waited to go in, I could have been a king?????? Figures, my luck.
:(--> Craig definitely knew how to build a better machine alright. Kings! I guess that was the problem with the gays in the Way. No queens! Kings only here!!!
Although wasn't it taught that the whole deal with the kings in the O.T. was that God never wanted Kings to rule over His people, but that's what they wanted so He tried to make it work? Second will of God stuff. Second best, "good" but not the best? Wasn't that the teaching? How'd he reconcile that? Old Wineskin!! (slap my butt and call me Judy!) Now I get it!
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Tom Strange
hey Judy! I know what you mean... now about that second session...
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Oakspear
TWI didn't force us to be abusers, but it taught us as surely as an abusive parent teaches the children he or she abuses to be abusers themselves.
Sure, on some level we all, or most of us anyway, figured it out and became model citizens
:D-->, but what vestiges remained?
I have to make a conscious effort every day to not lead as the TWI leaders did, by yelling and intimidation. I don't wake up in the morning and say "Gee, I'm going to verbally abuse and coerce my employees into doing my will", I know that doing things that way is wrong,a nd certainly counterproductive, but the habit is still there to be overcome, the instinct is still there to be reasoned away.
I don't recall anyone ever sitting me down and overtly teaching me that abusing people at any level was the good and godly way to treat the "believers", but the example that was set taught the lesson just as clearly.
What about the "good ol' days" of the so-called TWI-1? I see at least one poster here learned well the lesson of "blame the victim" that was around even before the spit 'n' slobber of "The Brow" Martindale's reign.
There was good in PFAL, there was even good things taught during the Martindale era, but there were teachings seeded throughout that class that were the groundwork for future abuses.
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Danny
Hell yes it was taught by VP. At PFAL live in 77 the camera person took the camera off of VP (maybe) for a second and he in front of thousands and thousands berated that person talked to them and us like we were dogs. I'm the man of god (not mine) you took the camera off me. Everone of us should of got up and left at that time. It was a lesson on abuse big time.
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