It's not hard to understand why any teachings from the bible/so-called advocating free s-x and open adultery wouldn't be publically taught at a Sunday Night Service or put in an Easter Way Magazine. Look at the Way dot com site. Everything's happy and perfect in WayLand according to it.
I do know of a few instances where people taught or spoke about this stuff in what they considered "closed corporation" sharings on the field, with their little enclaves of inner circle leaders. Basically they were trying to look like they knew something better, higher, more spiritual and way cooler than anyone else. They did it to advance their own interests. There's more confrontations that went on with people like that than have ever been talked about here, and not just dealing with this topic. I can think of a couple fist fights. People were terminated from their assignments, kicked out of the corps or sent packing over things like this. In fact, most of the turmoil I was ever involved with or aware of around problems in the Way Corps would make this site look like a playground. That's why for me there's a huge dichotomy between the secretive actions of some of the Way's people and this acceptanc of what they were doing amongst themselves.
Bottom line that I've come to on it looking back - if it blew up, went public, caused a stir, etc. that was one of the biggest things that made it a problem. If you could do these things and handle it, keep it secret, and no one got "hurt" (gag) then it was fine. It was the ability to keep it quiet that made it alright in other words. No harm, no foul. Plus if you knew the right people and they liked you, you might get a break. That seems to be the pattern.
But it can't be a surprise why this kind of behavior, teaching, discussion, suggestions, was reserved for situations that were conducive to manipulation. Of course it wasn't taught in open meetings except by people that were more than just dishonest but were stupid and arrogant enough to think they could get away with it on their say-so.
I asked a question trying to figure out which person you were talking about.
No you didn't. You presumed that I was talking about one of two persons that you are personally close to, and in a sly way made an implication that I resent.
quote:If no one had EVER asked the question, many people who read what you posted would have assumed it to be the honest to God Gospel truth. And would have repeated it to others.
Understandable. But I bet no one but you even had a thought at all that I could have been refering to the men you mentioned until you made and issue of it.
quote:I stand by what I said. You should have apologized for your error.
I disagree. I corrected my error which I then found out later was not the actual error. He was indeed 6th Corps and quite involved in "research" at TWI. I have since been informed that this person was heavily involved with the "research team" at TWI if not actually an officiall member. My mistake was using the term "research team" in a way different than you understand it. I owe you no apology at all.
quote:"...instead of doing so, you attacked the person who questioned it.
But I'm used to the tactic you used. It was used on me every time I questioned errors in TWI.
And I am used to the "tactic" you used as well. I attacked your method in how you asked your question. I found it condescending and pompous. I still do.
quote:You don't seem to understand that is what you were doing, Goey.
I understand that a 6th Corps TWI "Reverend" did exactly what I said he did, and that he was closely involved with research at one point at TWI. I was told that he was on the "research team" by what I believe to be a reliable source that I had no reason to doubt so I posted that as well. I am still not convinced that he was not, but I am double checking my source to make sure.
The last thing I want to do is to be inaccurate and since I have been posting here I have made every effort to be a accurate as possible. But it seems that you took my post as an intentional attack on either you husband or JS that you got quite defensive. That is undestandble I suppose. But it at was not my intent at all. And I think you knew that from the start.
quote:And on top of it, you became obstinate and rude in your subsequent post.
*yawn*
*Double yawn* back at you. Nothing personal Catcup, but I do not accept you as the final authority on squat. I do appreciate your input here, really I do, but I will probably always be a bit obstinate and rude at times. It is my nature, so don't look for any special treatment from me. You are just one poster among many.
quote:But if you REALLY want to provide a trustworthy witness, you have to be accurate, focused, and more seriously consider the rules on the front of this site.
anyway, with regard to public and private teachings.... i am trying to remember how it went for me
it seems like i first started to hear about spiritually handling deeper things from a few of the gals who undershepherded me. they weren't in the corps yet but going in.... and they hung with wierwille all the time
that's the next person i heard that kind of stuff from
so since the people who went in to the corps program were around wierwille a lot, i'm not surprised this informal doctrine was passed along big time
Tommy Strangelove - you gawt eet!!! You win the award for having an indepth Grease Spot peception and awareness!!! Your interpretation is flawless - you figured out the literal translation according to usage in the household of The Cafe!!!
And I'm sure a few guys did get "lucky" using that line on some of the more naive Corps girls.
And remember, the Sickth Corps was the first Corps that had more than 80 people in it - there were - 350+ to start off with. (Alfa knows the exact number)!
We were the first Corps to be away from HQ's. Our "elder" Corps - the 4th - was at HQ's as well - so we had to police ourselves.
We were the first, and maybe only Corps to have an average age of 22 (or 23?) - pretty durn young. I was 20 when I went in, but there were a few 18 year olds and one who graduated HS early to go in at 17. We didn't have too many folks who were over 30. I can't think of too many who were that old! Heck, LCM turned 27 in November of our first year in-rez.
And about 1/2 of the 6th Corps had only been involved with TWI for 3 years - or less! They took PFAL, went to the Rock, went WOW and went right in the Corps! That's 200+ people!
Because Emporia was big, and they had to fill those beds and get that labor-pool going, they allowed people in the Corps that weren't even Advanced Class grads. Some took it for the first time that May!
What does that mean? There was a great level of immaturity experientially, emotionally and spiritually - and very little supervision. VP first made LCM the Corps coordinator when the 5th Corps was in-rez. And there were only about 75-80 people in that group. This was a whole new gig for everyone.
So anything that was spread around got spread around fast! Maybe, and I'm saying maybe most people who heard it on the field believe it came from a 6th Corps teaching because we had so many people out on the field during our interim year and after we graduated. That's why Goey and a lot of people heard that particular teaching in the late 70's - we graduated in 1978.
I'm not making excuses - just providing a bit of Sickth Corps history that I wish Alfa, Ev and Catcup can and will add to. I think it gives a broader understanding of why people might believe we heard it from a podium. We didn't.
I also hear you loud and clear. I am trying to just make the point that even when attempts to uncover the garbage were done, it was quite easy to put the lid back on it. That is if you happened to be some what removed and your local WC didn’t buy the message or chose not to go against the flow, they found easy ways discredit the message and the messengers. The classic was and always will be “ I knew and worked very close to VP and never saw such activities, if this is so true why didn’t anyone stand up when he was alive?” “ Now that he is gone some of the very ones that abused their authority are using their own abuse as leverage to gain power and take over the ministry or have an instant one of their own”.
Now we know that some did try to take on VP, thanks to WayDale, and what happened to the ones that did. We also know why many didn’t speak right up when they were approached to learn to *bless the MOG*.
Goey,
What is it, you think that all WC were privy and there wasn’t one good honest decent Christian among them? Perhaps it was opposite of what you are thinking, the majority were what they claimed to be and a small select group was the underbelly of TWI.
What is it, you think that all WC were privy and there wasn’t one good honest decent Christian among them?
Grizz, Where have I in any way stated or implied such? ... Show one post of mine where I said anything like what you posted above and I will answer your question.
Until then I will simply ignore it and assume you did not read what I have written.
You apparantly have no clue as to what I think, so either my communitation skills suck or you reading comprehension skills suck ot it is a combination of the two.
Again, show me where I have said anything like, "...all WC were privy and there wasn’t one good honest decent Christian among them?"
Didn’t mean to imply you said that or implied that. I just thought that if I believed all WC knew of this twisting of the scripture, or just the 6th corps, or for that matter a distinct group that we could put our fingers on; then I would believe that in that particular group there would be no good Christians. It was just a question and that is how I came about it.
Excath,
The underbelly comment was not pointed at the abused, rather the abusers and those that aided in the abuse. It has been documented some women as well as men took part, with great *joy* in *winning* others to bless the MOGs.
...and if the 6th corps knew anything about it they didn't pass anything onto us...weren't they supposed to be our mentors?
Of course in our first res year, the teaching was Thessalonians. In any event, I never got a hint of sin justification during my corps time. It could have been the pure way I thought. :D-->
But at ROA 1978, the corps going WOW on interim year were warned rather plainly against such wrongdoings by VPW during a meeting in the woods.
Well, maybe I got a hint of it after that from fellow 8th at HQ before my untimely exit...
quote:I am trying to just make the point that even when attempts to uncover the garbage were done, it was quite easy to put the lid back on it.
Ok, now I understand what you are saying. I've never considered the whole mess from the perspective you shared. But now I see how it would be relatively easy to dismiss it all. ;)-->
It's just as confusing when abuse isn't normal, when you haven't experienced it, and it's going on all around you. And you think maybe something isn't quite right, but you can't put your finger on it. And then ya try to investigate a little, and people out and out LIE to your face. What a tangled web it was. :(-->
Well, I think it's safe to say that there was no "official" teaching to the 6th corps that made sex ok. I think it's also safe to say that there is no clear cut consensus on the "informal" teaching condoning sex. Different experiences for different folks. Undoubtedly, there was a biblical "interpretation" afoot, whispered behind closed doors by some people to justify what they were doing.
Actually, the sexual abuse that occurred did not happen to everyone but the ones that it did happen to suffered dramatically from it. There were other types of abuse that were more common and inclusive of more people...such as losing control of their every day lives and being robbed of their homes, finances, time and right to make simple decisions that they should have been making. The old "group think mentality" that sucked everyone into a cult was abusive in it's very nature.
I think perhaps Catcup took Goeys remarks wrongly and too personal and then became hostile towards him. I agree that folks should be accurate in what they say, people's reputations are at stake. However, from what I read, Goey was as accurate or more accurate than many posts I've read here. He was speaking on the authority of what he considers a valid source...good enough for me. We are all attempting to unravel some elaborate and ugly truths here and there's bound to be a little tension at times when someone gets too "close to the fire". I'm sure that when cooler heads prevail, an appreciation of people's true intentions can be seen more clearly...Peace!
Well, I think it's safe to say that there was no "official" teaching to the 6th corps that made sex ok. I think it's also safe to say that there is no clear cut consensus on the "informal" teaching condoning sex. Different experiences for different folks. Undoubtedly, there was a biblical "interpretation" afoot, whispered behind closed doors by some people to justify what they were doing.
You're abso-frikkin-lutely right. Bullseye! That pretty much clears it up as far as the Sixth goes. Thanks. I feel better now....
I think, too, that there were probably some classic double way-speak going on and those "pure thinkers" like Lifted missed the underlying message. NOT that there were formal teachings justifying sex and such, but that there may have been sharings in groups where the innocent received one message and the underbelly/initiated and abused received another message. lcm was a master at this sort of thing.
GRIZZ, I think you've been listening to my leadership and quoting them verbatim.
How does one counter such b.s.?
Also, for the record, I had the same perception as UH of Goey's post. I have the utmost respect for both Goey and Catcup and believe this was just a mis-understanding.
I’ve been out since *99* and those lines of bs go back to when I lived in WY, left there in *92*. Nothing new under the TWI scum is there?????
Counter it, since JS and JN have been mentioned perhaps look at those two groups and where they stand on the subject of sex. Both groups have come out publically against the practice. JS’s group has written articles against the practice and the group JN associates with has members that have testified in courts and done even more than that against TWIs practices. You know that bible TWI likes to talk about so much says something about Godly sorrow leads to repentance. If a leader knew and/or partook in the putrid fruit and has not only stopped, but went public taking a *stand* against it, who deserves more respect? The group that denies any thing but a one time affair or the men that have spoken out and even testified in a court of law?
If VPW was so innocent, why does the very group he founded all but deny his existence? Look at their web site and find him! I mean come on, even Peter and Paul quoted and acknowledged men that spoke *old wine-skins*! Why can’t they bother to bring up their own founder???
But the sex scandal stuff is only one piece of the horrid puzzle. How many of us M&A’d friends or family as they were put out to pasture by TWI? How many of us did the dirty deed for the leaders and told some child of the Most High they were unworthy to *fellowship* with the remnant?
As I have posted before, when I laid in bed thinking about what a great hard @$$ I was and suddenly the thought followed that I was back to where I had started and worked so hard to get away from, I knew it was time to leave. So maybe not all were taught to be sexual perverts, however it was next to impossible to escape participation to some degree while walking in the Promised Land of the Perverts Word.......................
I have been reading and watching this thread over the past few days.
However I can't now remember all the points that have been made already, so if I repeat something already posted or don't acknowledge a previous post it simply means I don't remember it.
My impression is that something of a conclusion has been made and that conclusion has been reinforced by the last few posts on page 6 and the first on the 7th.
So I would like to add my 2cents worth in a combination of eyewitness, third-person,hearsay, and commentary.
I was only a member of the 6th corps for the first 6 or 7 months. I left Emporia in the spring of '75.
While there, I heard things that would indicate that there was a flippant attitude by leaders in the way toward sex.
And part of that attitude was in the context of "being spiritual enough"
But it was not just a handy pickup followup line developed by horny corps males.
It originated from VeePee.
After I left I heard more info that verifies that VPW originated and disseminated (no pun intended) this doctrine.
Before I describe what the witnesses say, let me describe my theory of what was happening.
----
VPW had two (if not more) specific doctrines about "sex" and "fornication". One was private one was public.
The private one was not "delivered" to all the corps.
The public one was.
The justification for differing doctrines was in the "spiritual enough to handle what I am about to tell you" category.
(Makes you want to barf, doesn't it?)
The entire concept of the corpse was "spiritual training" that was obtained by "living with the man of god (or the Teacher)"
So if you heard the "inner", private teaching you were really in the inner circle, you were spiritual enough to realize that there was no "spiritual difference" between the flesh on your nose and the flesh around those "nether" regions.
---
There were at least a couple of 5th corp "repeaters" (dropouts?) that were in residence with the 6th.
One was a very attractive female.
On one of the very few times I had the pleasure of talking to her she told me about how DR had taught them (I assume the 5th corpse) that there was no spiritual difference in the flesh on her nose and certain other parts of her body.
-----
Chances are if you were an attractive lady in the corps and you were around at the right time and your resistance to sex was not anticipated then you would end up being "taught" the doctrine and the "practice" by the teacher.
-----
After I left the corps (but not TWI till 3 years later) I heard of many women who were tricked or gradually taught to "bless the man of god" with sex.
There were 4th corps women who besides providing these services to the mog, recruited and delivered other lovely young women to VPW, as well as to other "leaders".
I think that the JXXX LXXX letter in the eighties discusses some of this.
--------
Between my exit from the corps and my exit from the way itself I heard firsthand from a6th corps grad how she was essentially coerced into having sex with VPW. And that many other women had been as well. Some I knew and there were corroberating (sic) events in their lives that fit with what I was being told.
When it came to sex, some leaders from 74, 75, 76 were talking often about the "whatsever is not of faith, is sin" crap.
I was in the 15th corps and it was an unwritten,unspoken accecptance that having sex with the MOG was o.k.(If you could handle it)
I know of two of my corps sisters that had this type of relationship with the BOT. One was an eX-hooker from N.Y and the other was well-endowed.
This type of unspoken doctrine originated in PFAL. When it was taught that King David could have any women in the kingdom and that his "sin" was having Urriah murdered, it set a non-verbal open door on the subject. After all David was choosen of God and even the prophet Nathan was at risk of death for speaking up about it. (V.PE interpretation) This type of crap puts in the mind of the young beleiver that sex was o.k for the MOG to have anyone he chooses and only God can reprove that man.
I too know by experiance this crap. One of the most loving men I knew at H.Q, I blew. He had a wife and two kids and was on the Pres. cabinate and/or was head of a dept.
How did I get to this mind set that nothing was sacrad, but only the word of God. How did I get to the place that my own self respect takes a back seat when it comes to MOG and his needs. Where did this .... come from? Well for me I believe it started with PFAL.
This is the first time I have spoken anything about this and it is frightening. Frightening because I am not a slut and wanted more than anything to be a WOG. I wanted to be a spiritual women and I believed at the time it was my obligation. Reflecting back I am sad and grieve my loss of spiritual innocence.
The entire area of non-verbals has not really been discussed at great length.
the ploys, the leverage, the looks, the inuendos
we have said a lot, but I think a lot more can be said about the non-verbals
if you havent taken the time to greive---Make the time sometime....
I know I grieved for several mnths...really into the years--it took me about 2 years to really be feeling normal (I say that with tongue in cheek too) again---I left on May 31, 2000.
(((((Imbus)))) I am SO sorry for what was stolen from you :-(
It is just AWFULL when it dawns on you the magnitude of betrayal at these *Godly* mens hands.... our pure desire to serve God and grow....that honerable goal...was hijacked and twisted by selfish people who saw it as an oportunity to *get* some...
Though never approached sexually....I can relate to the desire to want to be the best wog...the striving to be *spiritual* enough...*mature* enough to *handle* these *higher* biblical* truths...
Putting aside personal likes/dislikes/...shutting down that small voice inside....to achieve that growth...that never quite achieved ...oh so elusive acceptability to God....this is what God needs of you...this is what God expects of you if you want to grow....God says this is ok...
We shut down ourselves.....only to find out later that we were nothing more than an ends to get a need *met*...bahhh
I hope there IS justice in this life or the next....I hope that the rat b-stards that masqueraded as men of God ... the ones who used that status .... the trust built in God and scripture to manipulate folks into servicing their base desires...using their *biblical* knowledge as that tool to manilpulate...as their justification for callouse misuse of their brothers and sisters...
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socks
It's not hard to understand why any teachings from the bible/so-called advocating free s-x and open adultery wouldn't be publically taught at a Sunday Night Service or put in an Easter Way Magazine. Look at the Way dot com site. Everything's happy and perfect in WayLand according to it.
I do know of a few instances where people taught or spoke about this stuff in what they considered "closed corporation" sharings on the field, with their little enclaves of inner circle leaders. Basically they were trying to look like they knew something better, higher, more spiritual and way cooler than anyone else. They did it to advance their own interests. There's more confrontations that went on with people like that than have ever been talked about here, and not just dealing with this topic. I can think of a couple fist fights. People were terminated from their assignments, kicked out of the corps or sent packing over things like this. In fact, most of the turmoil I was ever involved with or aware of around problems in the Way Corps would make this site look like a playground. That's why for me there's a huge dichotomy between the secretive actions of some of the Way's people and this acceptanc of what they were doing amongst themselves.
Bottom line that I've come to on it looking back - if it blew up, went public, caused a stir, etc. that was one of the biggest things that made it a problem. If you could do these things and handle it, keep it secret, and no one got "hurt" (gag) then it was fine. It was the ability to keep it quiet that made it alright in other words. No harm, no foul. Plus if you knew the right people and they liked you, you might get a break. That seems to be the pattern.
But it can't be a surprise why this kind of behavior, teaching, discussion, suggestions, was reserved for situations that were conducive to manipulation. Of course it wasn't taught in open meetings except by people that were more than just dishonest but were stupid and arrogant enough to think they could get away with it on their say-so.
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Goey
No you didn't. You presumed that I was talking about one of two persons that you are personally close to, and in a sly way made an implication that I resent.
Understandable. But I bet no one but you even had a thought at all that I could have been refering to the men you mentioned until you made and issue of it.I disagree. I corrected my error which I then found out later was not the actual error. He was indeed 6th Corps and quite involved in "research" at TWI. I have since been informed that this person was heavily involved with the "research team" at TWI if not actually an officiall member. My mistake was using the term "research team" in a way different than you understand it. I owe you no apology at all.
And I am used to the "tactic" you used as well. I attacked your method in how you asked your question. I found it condescending and pompous. I still do.I understand that a 6th Corps TWI "Reverend" did exactly what I said he did, and that he was closely involved with research at one point at TWI. I was told that he was on the "research team" by what I believe to be a reliable source that I had no reason to doubt so I posted that as well. I am still not convinced that he was not, but I am double checking my source to make sure.
The last thing I want to do is to be inaccurate and since I have been posting here I have made every effort to be a accurate as possible. But it seems that you took my post as an intentional attack on either you husband or JS that you got quite defensive. That is undestandble I suppose. But it at was not my intent at all. And I think you knew that from the start.
*Double yawn* back at you. Nothing personal Catcup, but I do not accept you as the final authority on squat. I do appreciate your input here, really I do, but I will probably always be a bit obstinate and rude at times. It is my nature, so don't look for any special treatment from me. You are just one poster among many.
I agree and have made every effort to do so.
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excathedra
I think
really sometimes i do
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excathedra
anyway, with regard to public and private teachings.... i am trying to remember how it went for me
it seems like i first started to hear about spiritually handling deeper things from a few of the gals who undershepherded me. they weren't in the corps yet but going in.... and they hung with wierwille all the time
that's the next person i heard that kind of stuff from
so since the people who went in to the corps program were around wierwille a lot, i'm not surprised this informal doctrine was passed along big time
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Hope R.
Tommy Strangelove - you gawt eet!!! You win the award for having an indepth Grease Spot peception and awareness!!! Your interpretation is flawless - you figured out the literal translation according to usage in the household of The Cafe!!!
And I'm sure a few guys did get "lucky" using that line on some of the more naive Corps girls.
And remember, the Sickth Corps was the first Corps that had more than 80 people in it - there were - 350+ to start off with. (Alfa knows the exact number)!
We were the first Corps to be away from HQ's. Our "elder" Corps - the 4th - was at HQ's as well - so we had to police ourselves.
We were the first, and maybe only Corps to have an average age of 22 (or 23?) - pretty durn young. I was 20 when I went in, but there were a few 18 year olds and one who graduated HS early to go in at 17. We didn't have too many folks who were over 30. I can't think of too many who were that old! Heck, LCM turned 27 in November of our first year in-rez.
And about 1/2 of the 6th Corps had only been involved with TWI for 3 years - or less! They took PFAL, went to the Rock, went WOW and went right in the Corps! That's 200+ people!
Because Emporia was big, and they had to fill those beds and get that labor-pool going, they allowed people in the Corps that weren't even Advanced Class grads. Some took it for the first time that May!
What does that mean? There was a great level of immaturity experientially, emotionally and spiritually - and very little supervision. VP first made LCM the Corps coordinator when the 5th Corps was in-rez. And there were only about 75-80 people in that group. This was a whole new gig for everyone.
So anything that was spread around got spread around fast! Maybe, and I'm saying maybe most people who heard it on the field believe it came from a 6th Corps teaching because we had so many people out on the field during our interim year and after we graduated. That's why Goey and a lot of people heard that particular teaching in the late 70's - we graduated in 1978.
I'm not making excuses - just providing a bit of Sickth Corps history that I wish Alfa, Ev and Catcup can and will add to. I think it gives a broader understanding of why people might believe we heard it from a podium. We didn't.
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Grizzy
Ex10,
I also hear you loud and clear. I am trying to just make the point that even when attempts to uncover the garbage were done, it was quite easy to put the lid back on it. That is if you happened to be some what removed and your local WC didn’t buy the message or chose not to go against the flow, they found easy ways discredit the message and the messengers. The classic was and always will be “ I knew and worked very close to VP and never saw such activities, if this is so true why didn’t anyone stand up when he was alive?” “ Now that he is gone some of the very ones that abused their authority are using their own abuse as leverage to gain power and take over the ministry or have an instant one of their own”.
Now we know that some did try to take on VP, thanks to WayDale, and what happened to the ones that did. We also know why many didn’t speak right up when they were approached to learn to *bless the MOG*.
Goey,
What is it, you think that all WC were privy and there wasn’t one good honest decent Christian among them? Perhaps it was opposite of what you are thinking, the majority were what they claimed to be and a small select group was the underbelly of TWI.
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Goey
Grizz posted
Grizz, Where have I in any way stated or implied such? ... Show one post of mine where I said anything like what you posted above and I will answer your question.
Until then I will simply ignore it and assume you did not read what I have written.
You apparantly have no clue as to what I think, so either my communitation skills suck or you reading comprehension skills suck ot it is a combination of the two.
Again, show me where I have said anything like, "...all WC were privy and there wasn’t one good honest decent Christian among them?"
I would like to see it.
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excathedra
i think i was in the underbelly but didn't mean to be or want to be....
it's a tough thing to explain when you have been abused before and it seems normal
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Grizzy
No Goey,
Didn’t mean to imply you said that or implied that. I just thought that if I believed all WC knew of this twisting of the scripture, or just the 6th corps, or for that matter a distinct group that we could put our fingers on; then I would believe that in that particular group there would be no good Christians. It was just a question and that is how I came about it.
Excath,
The underbelly comment was not pointed at the abused, rather the abusers and those that aided in the abuse. It has been documented some women as well as men took part, with great *joy* in *winning* others to bless the MOGs.
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Lifted Up
...and if the 6th corps knew anything about it they didn't pass anything onto us...weren't they supposed to be our mentors?
Of course in our first res year, the teaching was Thessalonians. In any event, I never got a hint of sin justification during my corps time. It could have been the pure way I thought.
:D-->
But at ROA 1978, the corps going WOW on interim year were warned rather plainly against such wrongdoings by VPW during a meeting in the woods.
Well, maybe I got a hint of it after that from fellow 8th at HQ before my untimely exit...
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excathedra
thank you grizzy
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ex10
Grizzy
Ok, now I understand what you are saying. I've never considered the whole mess from the perspective you shared. But now I see how it would be relatively easy to dismiss it all.
;)-->
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ex10
And excath
I think I know what you're saying.
It's just as confusing when abuse isn't normal, when you haven't experienced it, and it's going on all around you. And you think maybe something isn't quite right, but you can't put your finger on it. And then ya try to investigate a little, and people out and out LIE to your face. What a tangled web it was.
:(-->
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Zixar
ex10: Please check PTs, ok? Thanks!
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GrouchoMarxJr
Well, I think it's safe to say that there was no "official" teaching to the 6th corps that made sex ok. I think it's also safe to say that there is no clear cut consensus on the "informal" teaching condoning sex. Different experiences for different folks. Undoubtedly, there was a biblical "interpretation" afoot, whispered behind closed doors by some people to justify what they were doing.
Actually, the sexual abuse that occurred did not happen to everyone but the ones that it did happen to suffered dramatically from it. There were other types of abuse that were more common and inclusive of more people...such as losing control of their every day lives and being robbed of their homes, finances, time and right to make simple decisions that they should have been making. The old "group think mentality" that sucked everyone into a cult was abusive in it's very nature.
I think perhaps Catcup took Goeys remarks wrongly and too personal and then became hostile towards him. I agree that folks should be accurate in what they say, people's reputations are at stake. However, from what I read, Goey was as accurate or more accurate than many posts I've read here. He was speaking on the authority of what he considers a valid source...good enough for me. We are all attempting to unravel some elaborate and ugly truths here and there's bound to be a little tension at times when someone gets too "close to the fire". I'm sure that when cooler heads prevail, an appreciation of people's true intentions can be seen more clearly...Peace!
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Hope R.
You're abso-frikkin-lutely right. Bullseye! That pretty much clears it up as far as the Sixth goes. Thanks. I feel better now....
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Tom Strange
yeah HopeR... but you guys were nuts!
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insurgent
I think, too, that there were probably some classic double way-speak going on and those "pure thinkers" like Lifted missed the underlying message. NOT that there were formal teachings justifying sex and such, but that there may have been sharings in groups where the innocent received one message and the underbelly/initiated and abused received another message. lcm was a master at this sort of thing.
GRIZZ, I think you've been listening to my leadership and quoting them verbatim.
How does one counter such b.s.?
Also, for the record, I had the same perception as UH of Goey's post. I have the utmost respect for both Goey and Catcup and believe this was just a mis-understanding.
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washingtonweather
To some people, their silence makes it okay...even makes it go away.
I still say silence is consent.
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Grizzy
Insurgent,
I’ve been out since *99* and those lines of bs go back to when I lived in WY, left there in *92*. Nothing new under the TWI scum is there?????
Counter it, since JS and JN have been mentioned perhaps look at those two groups and where they stand on the subject of sex. Both groups have come out publically against the practice. JS’s group has written articles against the practice and the group JN associates with has members that have testified in courts and done even more than that against TWIs practices. You know that bible TWI likes to talk about so much says something about Godly sorrow leads to repentance. If a leader knew and/or partook in the putrid fruit and has not only stopped, but went public taking a *stand* against it, who deserves more respect? The group that denies any thing but a one time affair or the men that have spoken out and even testified in a court of law?
If VPW was so innocent, why does the very group he founded all but deny his existence? Look at their web site and find him! I mean come on, even Peter and Paul quoted and acknowledged men that spoke *old wine-skins*! Why can’t they bother to bring up their own founder???
But the sex scandal stuff is only one piece of the horrid puzzle. How many of us M&A’d friends or family as they were put out to pasture by TWI? How many of us did the dirty deed for the leaders and told some child of the Most High they were unworthy to *fellowship* with the remnant?
As I have posted before, when I laid in bed thinking about what a great hard @$$ I was and suddenly the thought followed that I was back to where I had started and worked so hard to get away from, I knew it was time to leave. So maybe not all were taught to be sexual perverts, however it was next to impossible to escape participation to some degree while walking in the Promised Land of the Perverts Word.......................
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Darrell Bailey
Howdy Folks,
I have been reading and watching this thread over the past few days.
However I can't now remember all the points that have been made already, so if I repeat something already posted or don't acknowledge a previous post it simply means I don't remember it.
My impression is that something of a conclusion has been made and that conclusion has been reinforced by the last few posts on page 6 and the first on the 7th.
So I would like to add my 2cents worth in a combination of eyewitness, third-person,hearsay, and commentary.
I was only a member of the 6th corps for the first 6 or 7 months. I left Emporia in the spring of '75.
While there, I heard things that would indicate that there was a flippant attitude by leaders in the way toward sex.
And part of that attitude was in the context of "being spiritual enough"
But it was not just a handy pickup followup line developed by horny corps males.
It originated from VeePee.
After I left I heard more info that verifies that VPW originated and disseminated (no pun intended) this doctrine.
Before I describe what the witnesses say, let me describe my theory of what was happening.
----
VPW had two (if not more) specific doctrines about "sex" and "fornication". One was private one was public.
The private one was not "delivered" to all the corps.
The public one was.
The justification for differing doctrines was in the "spiritual enough to handle what I am about to tell you" category.
(Makes you want to barf, doesn't it?)
The entire concept of the corpse was "spiritual training" that was obtained by "living with the man of god (or the Teacher)"
So if you heard the "inner", private teaching you were really in the inner circle, you were spiritual enough to realize that there was no "spiritual difference" between the flesh on your nose and the flesh around those "nether" regions.
---
There were at least a couple of 5th corp "repeaters" (dropouts?) that were in residence with the 6th.
One was a very attractive female.
On one of the very few times I had the pleasure of talking to her she told me about how DR had taught them (I assume the 5th corpse) that there was no spiritual difference in the flesh on her nose and certain other parts of her body.
-----
Chances are if you were an attractive lady in the corps and you were around at the right time and your resistance to sex was not anticipated then you would end up being "taught" the doctrine and the "practice" by the teacher.
-----
After I left the corps (but not TWI till 3 years later) I heard of many women who were tricked or gradually taught to "bless the man of god" with sex.
There were 4th corps women who besides providing these services to the mog, recruited and delivered other lovely young women to VPW, as well as to other "leaders".
I think that the JXXX LXXX letter in the eighties discusses some of this.
--------
Between my exit from the corps and my exit from the way itself I heard firsthand from a6th corps grad how she was essentially coerced into having sex with VPW. And that many other women had been as well. Some I knew and there were corroberating (sic) events in their lives that fit with what I was being told.
When it came to sex, some leaders from 74, 75, 76 were talking often about the "whatsever is not of faith, is sin" crap.
(Hope R. you did a wonderful post on that!)
-------
Thanks and God Bless,
DB
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imbus
I was in the 15th corps and it was an unwritten,unspoken accecptance that having sex with the MOG was o.k.(If you could handle it)
I know of two of my corps sisters that had this type of relationship with the BOT. One was an eX-hooker from N.Y and the other was well-endowed.
This type of unspoken doctrine originated in PFAL. When it was taught that King David could have any women in the kingdom and that his "sin" was having Urriah murdered, it set a non-verbal open door on the subject. After all David was choosen of God and even the prophet Nathan was at risk of death for speaking up about it. (V.PE interpretation) This type of crap puts in the mind of the young beleiver that sex was o.k for the MOG to have anyone he chooses and only God can reprove that man.
I too know by experiance this crap. One of the most loving men I knew at H.Q, I blew. He had a wife and two kids and was on the Pres. cabinate and/or was head of a dept.
How did I get to this mind set that nothing was sacrad, but only the word of God. How did I get to the place that my own self respect takes a back seat when it comes to MOG and his needs. Where did this .... come from? Well for me I believe it started with PFAL.
This is the first time I have spoken anything about this and it is frightening. Frightening because I am not a slut and wanted more than anything to be a WOG. I wanted to be a spiritual women and I believed at the time it was my obligation. Reflecting back I am sad and grieve my loss of spiritual innocence.
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washingtonweather
Thankyou imbus!!!
The entire area of non-verbals has not really been discussed at great length.
the ploys, the leverage, the looks, the inuendos
we have said a lot, but I think a lot more can be said about the non-verbals
if you havent taken the time to greive---Make the time sometime....
I know I grieved for several mnths...really into the years--it took me about 2 years to really be feeling normal (I say that with tongue in cheek too) again---I left on May 31, 2000.
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rascal
(((((Imbus)))) I am SO sorry for what was stolen from you :-(
It is just AWFULL when it dawns on you the magnitude of betrayal at these *Godly* mens hands.... our pure desire to serve God and grow....that honerable goal...was hijacked and twisted by selfish people who saw it as an oportunity to *get* some...
Though never approached sexually....I can relate to the desire to want to be the best wog...the striving to be *spiritual* enough...*mature* enough to *handle* these *higher* biblical* truths...
Putting aside personal likes/dislikes/...shutting down that small voice inside....to achieve that growth...that never quite achieved ...oh so elusive acceptability to God....this is what God needs of you...this is what God expects of you if you want to grow....God says this is ok...
We shut down ourselves.....only to find out later that we were nothing more than an ends to get a need *met*...bahhh
I hope there IS justice in this life or the next....I hope that the rat b-stards that masqueraded as men of God ... the ones who used that status .... the trust built in God and scripture to manipulate folks into servicing their base desires...using their *biblical* knowledge as that tool to manilpulate...as their justification for callouse misuse of their brothers and sisters...
What sad sorry creeps ......
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