You seem unable to discuss this topic without bringing other's possible flaws into it. Why is that? Why can't you leave Weirwille by himself and allowed this to be explored? Seems like a WHOLE lot of redirectin' goin' on here.
JustThinking,
This isn't just about how Wierwille acted but alludes to the alleged mentality of the participants. You don't see that? It's insulting to hear some of these things that comment on my alleged mentality, or my alleged victim status.
"The narcissist is the guru at the center..."
Yeah, if you put VP at the center of your involvement, he was at the center. If you didn't, he wasn't.
"The often involuntary members of the narcissist's mini-cult inhabit a twilight zone of his own construction"
So we're controlled, brainwashed zombies then?
"He imposes on them a shared psychosis, replete with persecutory delusions..."
I don't need someone's psychobabble, telling me all about my "psychosis"...
If this link doesn't make you sit up and make the connection between VPW/LCM and Narcissistic Personality Disorder, I don't know what else will:
Cult of the Narcissist
Check it out -- it is worth it. And I did NOT tell him about The Way International.
----------------------------------------
The original topic with no mention of victim mentality. The very first response was yours introducing the idea. You seem to be the sole person trying very hard to veer it away from VP/LCM's behavior to why people let him be that way. Why someone does or does not allow that won't change the fact that this description in most everyone's view here seems to fit.
I can see a manipulative, self-centered distructive personality targeting young or impressionable people and using them for their own purposes. Why a 15 year-old girl (for example) is unable to spot a trained predator in no changes the fact that he is one. And, yes, I do think a young teen is a fitting example because I met quite a few people who got into TWI-1 at a very young age. By your logic we should also give a pass to those who seduce young women into drugs or prostitution. Are they just mindless zombies too? No, just tricked or manipulated.
Your posts constantly deal with the person hurt. Have you ever said either way if you feel this description of their behavior fits this? Not that I've read.
"It's insulting to hear some of these things that comment on my alleged mentality, or my alleged victim status."
Oldie, who is commenting on this other than you? Everyone else seems to be discussing the original topic which was whether or not this fits the behavior of VPW and LCM.
i don't mind that oldies has a different experience
but oldies, your comments on insults, is insulting, to me ;)-->
ps. if i had been 15 instead of 18 (a stupid abused 18), would i get more slack about how veepee was a predator ?
yeah let's give WIERWILLE the slack -- he even knew my background (from ME). what a guy. what a loving fatherly figure minister. oops sorry for my victim mindset....
it doesn't take a "victims" mentality to be affected by A person with Narcissistic Personality Disorder like VPW or LCM.
quote: Dr. Wierwille wasn't at the center of TWI in my TWI world
How disengenuous --just exactly who do you think was giving the directions for "your TWI world" ??
THe teachings
the songs
the organizations
The Rules
the Assignments
TWI was .headed by VP or LCM depending when you were in, that's who
THe evil flowed from the top down--You apparently got lucky and missed the evil--
I was a saved Christian before I joined so the evil that was done to me and mine far outweighed any benefits.
ANd even if You received all the good you claim to have --you seem unwilling to face the fact that the good you received was at the cost of your brothers and sisters in CHrist who were done evil.
For you To try and claim that any benefits you or others received negates the incredible evil that was perpetuated on others leaves me in a state of horrified wonderment
quote:Dr. Wierwille wasn't at the center of TWI in my TWI world...my involvement and commitment wasn't to him... He was the teacher, yes, but he wasn't the sustenance that kept me going. I suppose it's possible some folks can make that kind of commitment to a man, and VP in particular; but that's up to the mind set of those making the decision. I think it's insulting to suggest all of us fell in that same boat.
Focusing ONLY on the victim is supposed to do that. The hurt and emotion it stirs up is one of the best ways to change the direction of the conversation. That way you react to the hurtful statement and get away from the original point. VERY old trick. Sorry it got used on folks like you.
OM,
To be balanced, people do bear responsibility for their own lives. HOWEVER, many laws recognize the, sometimes greater, responsibility of the person in charge. If I run a pharmaceutical company and sell a dangerous product, some people will be fooled because there is a level of trust there. When their loved ones drop dead, they realize it's deadly. However, it would be cruel to somehow put blame on the victim. They were unaware of the potential harm. I think someone knowingly doing something harmful is another story.
There was a time when the general population had a level of respect for ordained ministers. If a person misuses that trust for harm, that person bears the lion's share of the responsibility for his or her own misdeeds. The legal idea of "caveat emptor" or buyer beware has it's limits. If I build a product, I bear responsbility for obvious negligence. Using something like a ministry to twist the Bible to justify your desire to prey on women, in my mind, is a serious breach of the public trust. I fail to see how innocent teens can be somehow be blamed for this.
"The narcissist is the guru at the center of the cult." Well, Wierwille certainly was the MOG at the center of his organization. He chose people to be on his BOT that would be his yes-men. He taught his staff, clergy, and corps to jump without asking how high, and that a suggestion was tantamount to an order. LCM was the same, but without a BOT to back him to the hilt.
If he wasn't at the center of YOUR life, then fine. That's not what the article is talking about.
Is this the paragraph that has your panties in a knot?
quote:The - often involuntary - members of the narcissist's mini-cult inhabit a twilight zone of his own construction. He imposes on them a shared psychosis, replete with persecutory delusions, "enemies", mythical narratives, and apocalyptic scenarios if he is flouted.
Now remember, the article is actually about how a narcissistic head of a FAMILY is like a cult leader. Here's how I saw that section of the article in relation to TWI.
"involuntary members," like the CHILDREN
"twilight zone" -- a make-believe reality, a web of lies
"persecutory delusions, 'enemies,' mythical narratives" -- the trilateral commission, the commies, the government, the deprogrammers, the press, all out to get us; the law of believing. don't speak things out loud or the devil will hear it and steal it, etc.
"apocalyptic scenarios" -- greasespots by midnight (that was LCM's statement)
Sorry if you took it wrong, Oldies, but it was never my intent to say that we were all zombies without a brain in our heads. I was 15 when I first took PFAL. Wierwille was not at the center of my personal life, either. He stepped directly into the center of my life by making a pretty arbitrary decision about where I was to live, many years later. It was ultimately my decision to follow his advice or not. As far as he was concerned, his word was God's Word on the subject. I followed it. It was wrong. When I told him so, respectfully, he insulted me. Buh bye, Vic.
His decision cost him little. It cost me a lot. But like I said, it was my decision to make. God help those who had made deeper commitments, figuring they were serving God by serving such a narcissist.
OM... I think you're having a challange accepting responcibility for your part in this Cult thing. I sence you do not like to acknowledge your valnerability to a system that was not so honest or forth right. Hey, we all got duped and that is o.k.
It's about Wierwille and Martindale and their behavior paterns. Paterns that were documented and observed first hand by those very close to them. And this is the the same kind of behavior that is common to most all Guru's and cult leaders.
Maybe you don't want to admit that you were involved with a cult. Maybe it is too much for you to handle. Well neither did I for quite some time. Like you, I was not one of the glassy-eyed VPW/LCM followers. So what? - Not everyone was, and no one is really suggesting such that I can see. But there were quite a few glassy-eyed followers, and I think you know that.
Oldies, it's really not so bad owning up to being involved with a cult. That in no way negates your "hunger for truth" or the good you received while involved or the good you may have done. That stands separate.
However, your hunger for truth and the benefits you received or the good you did does not wash away VPW's narcissism nor does it relieve TWI from being a cult. He was still narcissistic and TWI was still a cult (from very early on IMO.)
If you had as much desire for the truth(facts) about TWI and VPW as you say you have for the Word, then I suspect you would be singing a little different song.
Oldies...I have no comment on your posts in this thread...if you haven't been enlightened by the previous posts, then mine would probably fare no better in persuading you.
Shaz...thanks for the link...it really hits the nail on the head. Wierwille and martindale are perfect examples of this type of person.
I recall an occasion when veepee was sitting with the 10th corps while others were discussing how great this "Tracker" guy, Tom Brown was. Some 8th corps had just returned from the "Tracker school" and were sharing about what a sharp guy Brown was in so many ways, etc, etc. Everybody was obviously impressed and the focus was on a story being told about how Brown snuck up on a deer or something, when all of a sudden Veepee leaps to his feet and shouts angrily, "DO YOU THINK HE COULD SNEAK UP ON ME?"...Suddenly the attention was back on wierwille, where he wanted it to be. He went on with some blather about how acute his spiritual senses were. Everybody ooohed and ahhhed and things were right again in wayworld. Scheeesh! -->
I just flashed on a WayCorps memory. We were in that room over the dining room, and all the honchos were seated in a row on that little stage before the meeting was to begin.
A female corps member on the floor two feet below them walked sideways the length of the stage in front of them. LCM yelled and screamed and bellowed about it, carrying on about no one was to ever ever walk in FRONT of the leaders like that!
Geeeesh. Seems pretty narcissistic to me now. And to think that I sat there and seriously thought to myself how to avoid "walking in front of the stage", not how insane it was for him to be yelling about it.
quote:Your posts constantly deal with the person hurt. Have you ever said either way if you feel this description of their behavior fits this?
JustThinking,
At first I was going to comment line by line on what I thought of the statements made in the article. Then on second thought, I figured not because I didn't think I wanted to be that anal-retentive about it and start a big to-do.
But the way I feel about it, there are two sides to every statement made in the article. Let me summarize my belief by saying that if one chooses to think VP and LCM as evil monsters, then it's easy for one to believe in and assent to the narcissistic theory. If not, then it's more difficult and probably unlikely one would give assent to the statements made.
quote:The original topic with no mention of victim mentality. The very first response was yours introducing the idea. You seem to be the sole person trying very hard to veer it away from VP/LCM's behavior to why people let him be that way.
It doesn't matter whether I'm the sole person giving this varying opinion or whether 10 people are -- the content and relevance of the opinion is what makes it count. Do we give our opinions based upon who agrees with us? Hope not.
Again I say, this isn't only about the actions/thoughts of VP and LCM. Just look at some of the statements and it talks about the so-called mind set of the participants and how they were victimized. That's me -- I was a participant, therefore my comments can relate and are applicable to the statements made.
My involvement was in the early 70s and I certainly don't consider myself a "victim" or a "controlled brainwashed zombie."
I do consider myself to have been a chump to have wasted so much time and effort and money on this bunch. Of course, my only reason for ever getting into this and staying in it was to hold on to a relationship, so I probably bring a different perspective than most here.
My only personal contact with Wierwille was to shake his hand twice at the ROA, and once during his one visit to North Carolina while I was in. You didn't have to be personally in his presence to see that it was always about him. I could see that from the first couple of months.
He was "the man of God" and there can only be one, kind of like the Highlander. Now I admit I don't remember VP ever saying that about himself, but I sure heard others say it over and over and over again. If you think VP couldn't have put a stop to that with one word, you are living in the twilight zone. If he didn't believe it himself, he sure enjoyed having everybody else believe it.
I took my mom to some twi thing that featured VP, I can't remember what now, but I sure remember what she said:
"They seem to be worshipping a man, not God."
Being a good little wayfer at the time, I said, "Oh, no. It's all about the Word."
Yeah, right.
It HAD to be all about VP, of course, because as we all know, God spoke to him audibly and told him He would teach him the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century. Also, twi's indoctrination course, pfal, was way too important to trust mere mortals to teach. It had to be VP on film.
quote:The narcissist claims to be infallible, superior, talented, skillful, omnipotent, and omniscient. He often lies and confabulates to support these unfounded claims. Within his cult, he expects awe, admiration, adulation, and constant attention commensurate with his outlandish stories and assertions. He reinterprets reality to fit his fantasies.
That sounds like it was written with V.P. Wierwille in mind.
Never saw anyone who could talk so much and say so little. Still no answer after four paragraphs in the last post alone! Just the politically correct, non-answer "two sides to every story." Too much.
Outandabout,
My flashback is an incident which made it into a thread a few months back. ROA 91 or 92 where some poor soul made the mistake of giving a suggestion to the MOGs on stage during a TC meeting. OMG, you would have thought he was a criminal! They started screaming at him about how NO ONE gives the Man of God direction, etc. Yikes. They didn't argue with his suggestion but bellowed about how he shouldn't even think to consider giving THEM a suggestion. But I'm sure this never happened during VP's reign. ;-)
My favorite though is VPW's infamous direction to not put his name on the auditorium Um... we use your farm on Weirwille road, in a ministry with a whole bunch of your relatives in senior positions... No, no personal influence here. I'm sure he HATED the idea. ;-)
The more I think about it, it's hard to see ANYTHING that wasn't all about VP. His motorcycle, His plane, etc. (Caps were on purpose, btw)
quote:ANd even if You received all the good you claim to have --you seem unwilling to face the fact that the good you received was at the cost of your brothers and sisters in CHrist who were done evil. ... For you To try and claim that any benefits you or others received negates the incredible evil that was perpetuated on others ...
MO
MO,
I think saying to someone that the good they received from a religious organization was at the cost of those who were done evil, is trying to make them feel ashamed at their experience, and that it matters little. It's like, let's just focus on all the evil works and forget the good because all that matters is the evil works perpetrated in the past. Would you like to apply that to LDS? How about Roman Catholicism?
And when did I ever claim that my godly experiences negated the evil ones? On the contrary, I think the opposite is more the case -- it seems folks like you claim the evil negates the good. Folks will decide for themselves how they choose to think on that.
It is clear that when faced with first hand reports of things done in TWI or with personal feelings of other posters your response is invariably to cloud the issue and ignore the hearts of your fellow posters.
It isn't your steadfast support of your beliefs that is the problem it is your total inability to have any compassion for the pain/hurt of your fellow posters. You may very well feel compassion/empathy/understanding for the rest of us , but it sure doesn't manifest itself in your posts
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JustThinking
Maybe we could just start a list of examples of potentially narcissistic behavior?
I'll start:
Way Magazine covers (How many was he on? Or maybe it would be easier to list those where he was absent?)
Research books written by supposed research teams but he's the only author listed?
I have a lengthy list but I'll share time.
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oldiesman
JustThinking,
This isn't just about how Wierwille acted but alludes to the alleged mentality of the participants. You don't see that? It's insulting to hear some of these things that comment on my alleged mentality, or my alleged victim status.
"The narcissist is the guru at the center..."
Yeah, if you put VP at the center of your involvement, he was at the center. If you didn't, he wasn't.
"The often involuntary members of the narcissist's mini-cult inhabit a twilight zone of his own construction"
So we're controlled, brainwashed zombies then?
"He imposes on them a shared psychosis, replete with persecutory delusions..."
I don't need someone's psychobabble, telling me all about my "psychosis"...
Do you understand where I'm coming from?
I could give you more examples if you wish...
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excathedra
"How to be a Narcissistic Source Toady Suck-up
Serving your narcissist well"
at:
http://md.cultabuse.com/Narcissism.htm
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JustThinking
OM,
-------------------------------------
If this link doesn't make you sit up and make the connection between VPW/LCM and Narcissistic Personality Disorder, I don't know what else will:
Cult of the Narcissist
Check it out -- it is worth it. And I did NOT tell him about The Way International.
----------------------------------------
The original topic with no mention of victim mentality. The very first response was yours introducing the idea. You seem to be the sole person trying very hard to veer it away from VP/LCM's behavior to why people let him be that way. Why someone does or does not allow that won't change the fact that this description in most everyone's view here seems to fit.
I can see a manipulative, self-centered distructive personality targeting young or impressionable people and using them for their own purposes. Why a 15 year-old girl (for example) is unable to spot a trained predator in no changes the fact that he is one. And, yes, I do think a young teen is a fitting example because I met quite a few people who got into TWI-1 at a very young age. By your logic we should also give a pass to those who seduce young women into drugs or prostitution. Are they just mindless zombies too? No, just tricked or manipulated.
Your posts constantly deal with the person hurt. Have you ever said either way if you feel this description of their behavior fits this? Not that I've read.
"It's insulting to hear some of these things that comment on my alleged mentality, or my alleged victim status."
Oldie, who is commenting on this other than you? Everyone else seems to be discussing the original topic which was whether or not this fits the behavior of VPW and LCM.
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waterbuffalo
zshot,
Thanks for that. hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
WB
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excathedra
JustThinking, that's what i was just thinking
**
i don't mind that oldies has a different experience
but oldies, your comments on insults, is insulting, to me
;)-->
ps. if i had been 15 instead of 18 (a stupid abused 18), would i get more slack about how veepee was a predator ?
yeah let's give WIERWILLE the slack -- he even knew my background (from ME). what a guy. what a loving fatherly figure minister. oops sorry for my victim mindset....
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templelady
Oldies
Try to understand this
it doesn't take a "victims" mentality to be affected by A person with Narcissistic Personality Disorder like VPW or LCM.
How disengenuous --just exactly who do you think was giving the directions for "your TWI world" ??
THe teachings
the songs
the organizations
The Rules
the Assignments
TWI was .headed by VP or LCM depending when you were in, that's who
THe evil flowed from the top down--You apparently got lucky and missed the evil--
I was a saved Christian before I joined so the evil that was done to me and mine far outweighed any benefits.
ANd even if You received all the good you claim to have --you seem unwilling to face the fact that the good you received was at the cost of your brothers and sisters in CHrist who were done evil.
For you To try and claim that any benefits you or others received negates the incredible evil that was perpetuated on others leaves me in a state of horrified wonderment
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excathedra
i wish i had the courage to say some things mo-temple....
i get lost in the logic or the words
but you're right.... even being a young lady is not the real issue
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excathedra
okay let me put it to you this way
this makes me feel like sh itLink to comment
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templelady
EX don't you dare put yourself down
I wasn't committed to VPW ever but that is only because he made my skin crawl--- and I never met the man!
ANd I still tried to conform to his view of the world.
You at least have the excuse that you believed in the man.
What excuse to I have for trying to conform to the edicts of a man who made my skin crawl????
YOU my lovely Ex are not nor have you ever been sh it and don;t you think elsewise
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JustThinking
Ex,
Focusing ONLY on the victim is supposed to do that. The hurt and emotion it stirs up is one of the best ways to change the direction of the conversation. That way you react to the hurtful statement and get away from the original point. VERY old trick. Sorry it got used on folks like you.
OM,
To be balanced, people do bear responsibility for their own lives. HOWEVER, many laws recognize the, sometimes greater, responsibility of the person in charge. If I run a pharmaceutical company and sell a dangerous product, some people will be fooled because there is a level of trust there. When their loved ones drop dead, they realize it's deadly. However, it would be cruel to somehow put blame on the victim. They were unaware of the potential harm. I think someone knowingly doing something harmful is another story.
There was a time when the general population had a level of respect for ordained ministers. If a person misuses that trust for harm, that person bears the lion's share of the responsibility for his or her own misdeeds. The legal idea of "caveat emptor" or buyer beware has it's limits. If I build a product, I bear responsbility for obvious negligence. Using something like a ministry to twist the Bible to justify your desire to prey on women, in my mind, is a serious breach of the public trust. I fail to see how innocent teens can be somehow be blamed for this.
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excathedra
maybe if the good doctor had tried to f&**** some of you people up the a$$
ahhhhhhhh never mind
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shazdancer
Oldies,
"The narcissist is the guru at the center of the cult." Well, Wierwille certainly was the MOG at the center of his organization. He chose people to be on his BOT that would be his yes-men. He taught his staff, clergy, and corps to jump without asking how high, and that a suggestion was tantamount to an order. LCM was the same, but without a BOT to back him to the hilt.
If he wasn't at the center of YOUR life, then fine. That's not what the article is talking about.
Is this the paragraph that has your panties in a knot?
Now remember, the article is actually about how a narcissistic head of a FAMILY is like a cult leader. Here's how I saw that section of the article in relation to TWI.Sorry if you took it wrong, Oldies, but it was never my intent to say that we were all zombies without a brain in our heads. I was 15 when I first took PFAL. Wierwille was not at the center of my personal life, either. He stepped directly into the center of my life by making a pretty arbitrary decision about where I was to live, many years later. It was ultimately my decision to follow his advice or not. As far as he was concerned, his word was God's Word on the subject. I followed it. It was wrong. When I told him so, respectfully, he insulted me. Buh bye, Vic.
His decision cost him little. It cost me a lot. But like I said, it was my decision to make. God help those who had made deeper commitments, figuring they were serving God by serving such a narcissist.
Shaz
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imbus
Well said Shaz,
OM... I think you're having a challange accepting responcibility for your part in this Cult thing. I sence you do not like to acknowledge your valnerability to a system that was not so honest or forth right. Hey, we all got duped and that is o.k.
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Goey
Oldies,
It ain't about you dude. Can't you see that?
It's about Wierwille and Martindale and their behavior paterns. Paterns that were documented and observed first hand by those very close to them. And this is the the same kind of behavior that is common to most all Guru's and cult leaders.
Maybe you don't want to admit that you were involved with a cult. Maybe it is too much for you to handle. Well neither did I for quite some time. Like you, I was not one of the glassy-eyed VPW/LCM followers. So what? - Not everyone was, and no one is really suggesting such that I can see. But there were quite a few glassy-eyed followers, and I think you know that.
Oldies, it's really not so bad owning up to being involved with a cult. That in no way negates your "hunger for truth" or the good you received while involved or the good you may have done. That stands separate.
However, your hunger for truth and the benefits you received or the good you did does not wash away VPW's narcissism nor does it relieve TWI from being a cult. He was still narcissistic and TWI was still a cult (from very early on IMO.)
If you had as much desire for the truth(facts) about TWI and VPW as you say you have for the Word, then I suspect you would be singing a little different song.
It's not about you Oldies.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Oldies...I have no comment on your posts in this thread...if you haven't been enlightened by the previous posts, then mine would probably fare no better in persuading you.
Shaz...thanks for the link...it really hits the nail on the head. Wierwille and martindale are perfect examples of this type of person.
I recall an occasion when veepee was sitting with the 10th corps while others were discussing how great this "Tracker" guy, Tom Brown was. Some 8th corps had just returned from the "Tracker school" and were sharing about what a sharp guy Brown was in so many ways, etc, etc. Everybody was obviously impressed and the focus was on a story being told about how Brown snuck up on a deer or something, when all of a sudden Veepee leaps to his feet and shouts angrily, "DO YOU THINK HE COULD SNEAK UP ON ME?"...Suddenly the attention was back on wierwille, where he wanted it to be. He went on with some blather about how acute his spiritual senses were. Everybody ooohed and ahhhed and things were right again in wayworld. Scheeesh!
-->
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excathedra
hairy what a good example of the veepee many people might not have known
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JustThinking
Now that we've spent a whole lot of time on OM's distractions...
Do any of the folks who were in during the 70s or earlier, was this the case all along? Or did this type of behavior increase as time went on?
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outandabout
I just flashed on a WayCorps memory. We were in that room over the dining room, and all the honchos were seated in a row on that little stage before the meeting was to begin.
A female corps member on the floor two feet below them walked sideways the length of the stage in front of them. LCM yelled and screamed and bellowed about it, carrying on about no one was to ever ever walk in FRONT of the leaders like that!
Geeeesh. Seems pretty narcissistic to me now. And to think that I sat there and seriously thought to myself how to avoid "walking in front of the stage", not how insane it was for him to be yelling about it.
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oldiesman
JustThinking,
At first I was going to comment line by line on what I thought of the statements made in the article. Then on second thought, I figured not because I didn't think I wanted to be that anal-retentive about it and start a big to-do.
But the way I feel about it, there are two sides to every statement made in the article. Let me summarize my belief by saying that if one chooses to think VP and LCM as evil monsters, then it's easy for one to believe in and assent to the narcissistic theory. If not, then it's more difficult and probably unlikely one would give assent to the statements made.
It doesn't matter whether I'm the sole person giving this varying opinion or whether 10 people are -- the content and relevance of the opinion is what makes it count. Do we give our opinions based upon who agrees with us? Hope not.
Again I say, this isn't only about the actions/thoughts of VP and LCM. Just look at some of the statements and it talks about the so-called mind set of the participants and how they were victimized. That's me -- I was a participant, therefore my comments can relate and are applicable to the statements made.
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Pirate1974
My involvement was in the early 70s and I certainly don't consider myself a "victim" or a "controlled brainwashed zombie."
I do consider myself to have been a chump to have wasted so much time and effort and money on this bunch. Of course, my only reason for ever getting into this and staying in it was to hold on to a relationship, so I probably bring a different perspective than most here.
My only personal contact with Wierwille was to shake his hand twice at the ROA, and once during his one visit to North Carolina while I was in. You didn't have to be personally in his presence to see that it was always about him. I could see that from the first couple of months.
He was "the man of God" and there can only be one, kind of like the Highlander. Now I admit I don't remember VP ever saying that about himself, but I sure heard others say it over and over and over again. If you think VP couldn't have put a stop to that with one word, you are living in the twilight zone. If he didn't believe it himself, he sure enjoyed having everybody else believe it.
I took my mom to some twi thing that featured VP, I can't remember what now, but I sure remember what she said:
"They seem to be worshipping a man, not God."
Being a good little wayfer at the time, I said, "Oh, no. It's all about the Word."
Yeah, right.
It HAD to be all about VP, of course, because as we all know, God spoke to him audibly and told him He would teach him the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century. Also, twi's indoctrination course, pfal, was way too important to trust mere mortals to teach. It had to be VP on film.
That sounds like it was written with V.P. Wierwille in mind.
No comment on LCM. I was long gone by his time.
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JustThinking
OM,
Hahahahaha...
Never saw anyone who could talk so much and say so little. Still no answer after four paragraphs in the last post alone! Just the politically correct, non-answer "two sides to every story." Too much.
Outandabout,
My flashback is an incident which made it into a thread a few months back. ROA 91 or 92 where some poor soul made the mistake of giving a suggestion to the MOGs on stage during a TC meeting. OMG, you would have thought he was a criminal! They started screaming at him about how NO ONE gives the Man of God direction, etc. Yikes. They didn't argue with his suggestion but bellowed about how he shouldn't even think to consider giving THEM a suggestion. But I'm sure this never happened during VP's reign. ;-)
My favorite though is VPW's infamous direction to not put his name on the auditorium Um... we use your farm on Weirwille road, in a ministry with a whole bunch of your relatives in senior positions... No, no personal influence here. I'm sure he HATED the idea. ;-)
The more I think about it, it's hard to see ANYTHING that wasn't all about VP. His motorcycle, His plane, etc. (Caps were on purpose, btw)
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oldiesman
MO,
I think saying to someone that the good they received from a religious organization was at the cost of those who were done evil, is trying to make them feel ashamed at their experience, and that it matters little. It's like, let's just focus on all the evil works and forget the good because all that matters is the evil works perpetrated in the past. Would you like to apply that to LDS? How about Roman Catholicism?
And when did I ever claim that my godly experiences negated the evil ones? On the contrary, I think the opposite is more the case -- it seems folks like you claim the evil negates the good. Folks will decide for themselves how they choose to think on that.
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templelady
Oldie,
It is clear that when faced with first hand reports of things done in TWI or with personal feelings of other posters your response is invariably to cloud the issue and ignore the hearts of your fellow posters.
It isn't your steadfast support of your beliefs that is the problem it is your total inability to have any compassion for the pain/hurt of your fellow posters. You may very well feel compassion/empathy/understanding for the rest of us , but it sure doesn't manifest itself in your posts
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