I think you really hit on something big, when you mentioned the "consistency" factor in the way corps. The way corps experience was not "consistent" for those of us who went through it, neither were the results of the training "consistent."
One of the reasons for this, I think, was that there were so many of us who had varying degrees of life's experience, different talents and abilities, areas of interest, etc. Yet, we were not treated as individuals, but one giant mass, that was supposed to march perfectly in step to the same cadence, no matter what.
Heck, even in college there is some latitude in what you can study, depending on your individual interests, goals, talents, etc. You have your own individual curriculum, and determine your own destiny, to a point.
But in the way corps, none of that was taken into consideration, IMO. If you didn't fit a certain "mold," then nobody knew what to do with you too much. So pressure was applied to "conform." And the "image" or the "mold" kept changing, according to who happened to be "in charge."
Individuality was really a threat. And I think it got progressively worse as time went on, especially after the "splintering" of TWI.
your heart and understanding is so pure and healing:
ie "Their view is just as valid as anybody elses. Sigh.....We all need to sort out our past for ourselves, and we don't have to all feel the same way about everything, or else we're right back in the cult"
Thank you for being you.
and by the way whose pic-the cute woman- that shows up with all your posts
A little boy touches a hot stove and burns his hand. Did he get anything "good" out of the experience? Of course he did. He learned not to touch a hot stove again, which is a valuble learning lesson.
In that sense, I did learn something from my corps experience. Thanks to the corruption and deception of so-called twi leaders, I now have a fully functionable bull.... meter.
Perhaps having mud fights and sitting around a campfire, singing Kumbiya validates the experience for some of you, but for me, it falls short. When I consider that we were dealing with very important life issues, I cannot easily overlook the fact that these people were lying in God's name.
quote:I honestly do not think that I could be the person that I now am without the corps.
Speaking from a Spiritual Partner's viewpoint, I like Research Geek's attitude. I hate to think all that spiritual partnership money went to total waste.
not a TOTAL scam... I learned some stuff and made some friends... I don't know, I might have learned that same stuff and made those friends anyway...
I think regardless of your mindset going in, very few came away "fully satisfied"...
It wasn't so bad for me, not perfect but not a TOTAL scam... but then again, I wasn't a young woman either... and the fact that all that crap was going on "behind the scenes" kind of poops the whole thing up for me in hindsight...
I do treasure some of the memories (those not taken by my advanced case of CRS)... and there are some I can do without...
Yes I was sleep deprived, worked like a dog, treated less than a son of God should be treated, BUT I did learn some wonderful, good information and experience. It is also a place that I met my wonderful husband. I believe that God worked in the situation to help me learn and grow. I believe that the corpse was the best thing available for me at that time to help me grow and learn. I have to fight to keep from being bitter sometimes, but I remain thankful for the good that I have learned. If I would have been one of those unfortunate ladies to have been abused, I'm sure that my opinions would have been quite different and I would probably not speak kindly in any way toward TWI. I pray that there is sweet justice for the abused ladies. For any of the abusers that are still alive, I pray that justice comes very swift.For the abusers that are deceased, I believe that God will not let it go unpunished. I pray for great healing for all victims.IMHO
If it was all so totally rotten, how come the Ninth Corps thread has over a hundred pages to it? Seems like some wonderful friendships were made in the Ninth, as I know that they were in the Tenth and so many of the others...My wife is from the Seventh, and I am thankful that I was in The Way so I could have met her and had four wonderful children by her...
well Jonny the Linguist... that's because many of us in the 9th corps were (and are) certifiably insane (kinda like Crazy Eddie's prices)... none of the other corps threads are like that one... "they" won't let you use that in your test group...
But ya know... there is a feeling that I've run into a lot in my 20+ years out... and that is that there is rarely anything I run into (mental or physical obstacle) that I don't think I can overcome... because we were pushed so hard... I've found myself through the years going "that's nothing, I've pushed myself harder before"... know what I mean?
but like I said above, I wasn't a young woman and didn't know about a lot of stuff back then...
Yeah, like I told one gal a bit back on this thread, I was pretty shocked to hear of the predatory .... by the upper mucky mucks.
But yes, even though we coulda learned some of the same stuff in let's say the USMC, or Navy or Army, we learned it in the Way Corps, and it has worked for me...
But, somebody did play pretty music on the harmonica for ya!
JL
Yes they did! :D-->
But even my LEAD experience turned into a fiasco. When I got back, I was ONCE AGAIN called to JL's office. He read my LEAD appraisal and told me that I was accused of lying during LEAD. :o-->
Yes, one of those wonderful fearless LEAD leaders wrote that I had said I needed to go to bathroom while we were hicking and that that was just an excuse I had made to have a rest break.
Of course JAL believed them and not me. -->
Just another chapter in my way corpse
experience!
The Way Corps ... Welcome to the land of the annally retentive! :D-->
There seems to be what I always have suspected...quite a difference in experiences between those of us who were in residence in the 70s...and those who were in from the late 80z through the 90s. Especially in the good times, the extra-curricular activities, the getting away with things (which even a quiet person like me was able to be a participant), and the regulation of and the accounting for each minute of the day. I have a hunch that in much more recent years, you couldn't get have fun doing a lot of things that I and others in my time did.
For me, one thing that was valuable (which I carry to this day) was the fitness and health thing. That includes the eating. Yes, the in residence corps meals at Emporia in the 70s was not an all you can eat thing. Most (me included) could have eaten more at most meals. Frankly I don't think that was a bad habit to get into. Perhaps it seems a better habit for me now, in my 50s. But I think it was a goos start.
Funny, I never lost any weight though, despite the running and work. I did have a fellow 8th corps Indy buddy and lightbearers partner who lost a hundred pounds and looked much better for it (some of you fellow oldie 6th and 8th may remember the famed General Patton).
On the other hand, another person I knew at Indy who went into the 6th corps (and who i joined for a while at Emporia when I went into the 8th) GAINED weight in residence...she told me once she had never before eaten as regularly as she did before the corps.
And, I think the quality of the food was good. It sure wasn't a diet of Big Macs, Whoppers, monster burgers, and cheesecake.
What does it mean? Okay, that's another debate with perhaps much different answers. But when I hear someone talk about the in residence corps diet as if it ere a starvation diet, and as if the corps people came though it emaciated and unfit, it sharply decreases, to me anyway, the authority and believability of the rest of their testimony.
By the way, I would be interested in being enlightened as to what the corps diet has been like in later years from some of you younger and more recent ex-corps.
well johnny, we just don't see eye-to-eye and i suppose i deserved your reply....
the hairy guy seems more "real" in his outlook to me
i am not trying to dismiss you like you're not a real person
to me, you sound more like a fraternity brother, that's all.
do i sound ....ed off and bitter? sometimes i am, sometimes i'm not. being ....ed on was not fun and i think the way corps experience did ME a lot of damage
as far as the 9th corps thread goes, they are some of the loveliest folks i've ever known
No Excathedra, your last post was not insulting. I don't really know what a "frat guy" would be like. You mean like an "Animal House" guy? John Belushi?
Look, I grew up lazy and spoiled, and when I wanted my room to be cleaned up, I would just wait long enough until my Mom would get disgusted enough to do it herself. That's small example of my "spoiledness". Also, I was a lousy student, got bad grades from kindygarden on, and finally ended up as a stoner/dropout in '73 in my sophomore year. When I went into the Corps, I went in specifically to be challenged in work habits, Bible study habits, attention to detail type habits, and the physical training type habits. I also wanted to be able to stand up in front of a crowd and be able to teach the Bible and not be "ascaird".
When they asked us to move from one end of the campus to the other just as we were settling in to our first dormitory residence, I looked at it as agood training exercise to switch my "mental gears". When they would say; "ok you all be out on the circle drive in your sweats in ten minutes" when I thought that I was soon going to be drifting off to sleep, even though it was a change of my plans, I looked at it as good training. It certainly didn't hurt me that is for sure.
When I had to write my research paper (wouldn't you know I wrote it on the "work ethic" as found in the Bible), it was the hardest bit of academic anything I ever did in my entire life. And I had alot more time to do it than the two weeks mentioned by Danny. It was victory for me, the stoner/loser that I had once been. Sorry if this doesn't sit well with you folks, but I am not going to lie and say that "it sucked" just so I can fit in with the crowd. We all had different experiences.
Rascal said;
quote: Maybe if the powers that be hadn`t treated many so badly JL....ex and others wouldn`t have a valid REASON for not appreciating the *party* that you enjoyed.
Thanks for the sarcasm on the word "party" Rascal, but ya know, I never said that I doubted you and Ex's valid reasons for not liking your time spent in the Corps. I have simply said that I had gotten good things from MY experience in the Way Corps. And, I had lots of fun too! For me it was not a waste of my youth. I refuse to look at it that way because so many of the things that I use in life that have made me successful are things I learned during those years.
I was very fortunate to have been overlooked as a big shot leader which very well could have led me closer to the ugliness and the abuse, but it happened as it did. But when I hear people saying that we had bad sleep deprivation, not enough food and that we worked like slaves or whatever, sorry, but during the time I was "in" it was tough, but I don't see it as abuse, and it was good for me and many others with whom I still communicate.
But let me put it on record again. I am sorry that you and Excathedra and Uncle Hairy suffered such abuse. Your situation was different than mine, and my situation was good for me.
I've had this discussion with a few people I've met on GS, so I'll add it to this thread and in no way mean to de-rail it...
Isn't it posssible, if not probable, that some of the good things we learned in the Way Corps couldn't and/or wouldn't have been learned elsewhere?
If I had gone to college, or into the Peace Corps, or gotten a job in the mail room at IBM or some other large company - wouldn't I have learned how to study, help others and work hard? Perhaps I could have learned those things quicker had I not gone into the Corps and done something else.
We can play "what if" forever - but the fact is that the Corps program doesn't hold a patent on the benefits some of us may have received from it.
I could have taken a public speaking course at a community college and gotten credit for it! Or I could even have taken the Dale Carnegie class directly from that company.
Would I have learned many of the good things I picked up in-rez? I honestly believe I would have. I've met so many people my age who never heard of TWI who have worked hard to get where they are. They're moral and ethical and smart, too. Many of them have to travel 3 or 4 days a week as part of their jobs. Some have been transferred because of changes in the companies they work for. In the world today, that's not uncommon - and people have learned to be flexible if they want to keep their jobs.
And what about the military? That's another extreme, I guess. But I think some of the people I met in-rez would have been better off doing 4 years in uniform instead of 4 years in the Way Corps. At least they'd have GI benefits and some college tuition to look forward to instead of not being qualified to do much of anything.
Another point I just thought of is that, other than washing windows, did anyone out there learn a skill or a trade in the Corps they're using today to earn a living? Most of the folks I knew with skills and abilities in-rez had them before they went into the program.
Jonny - it didn't totally suck for me - but I'm not going to laud the program as if it was something so unique that I couldn't have gained the knowledge and skills elsewhere.
Living means learning if one is willing to learn. I refuse to regret those years, but won't fool myself into thinking that there was no other way to get where I am today without having gone through the Corps.
(Not bitter - just trying to look through glasses other than my usual rose colored ones).
I don't think Jonny was saying he couldn't have gained the knowledge elsewhere. I think the key...for HIM (not necessarily someone else in particular) may be that perhaps he WOULDN'T have gained the knowledge elsewhere. For example, there are oodles of places one can do academic research and writing. And, many might gasp at the thought of comparing Way Corps research to this or that university. But, according to Jonny's testimony, the corps did benefit him in that way. Perhaps it is the same for the other things Jonny says he learned in the corps that have helped make him successful.
If Jonny does not deny someone else's testimony about their unpleasant experiences...and I think he has made it clear that he doesn't...then I don't think giving his own testimony about the things that have helped him that he learned in the corps is looking through rose colored glasses.
When I started this thread I was honestly curious about what everyone thought about their corps experience. I didn't expect the same answers from everyone and I sure didn't get the same answers, and that's a good thing.
I have no argument with those who found it a valuble experience. I enjoy the debate from both points of view, but honestly, there's no need for anyone to feel defensive about their position. I suspect that you're all really fine people.
About the food...all I said was that my rations were cut in half. It WAS healthier food than what I was used to and the reduced portions were healthier for me too. Between the food and the running, I was in fabulous shape. I went into the corps weighing 190 and came out at 155. Today I am about 180...too many cheeseburgers and beer.
The truth of the matter is that I could have gotten the same results following Jack LaLaine instead of veepee wierwille...and saved a lot of money in the process.
I keep hearing about all the great friendships and even marriages that came about as a result of being in the corps. That's really swell but doesn't really have anything to do with the corps training itself. If you met your spouse or good friend while serving time in prison, perhaps you could expound on the value of your prison experience as well.
Sorry folks, I just can't get away from the fact that twi leaders lied to us in God's name about some pretty important stuff. To me that overshadows any incidental nicities that I may have picked up while being in residence. It's sorta like the question posed to Mrs Lincoln after her husband was assassinated at Ford theatre. "Besides the other thing that happened, Mrs Lincoln, how did you like the play?"
Lifted - I wasn't referring only to Jonny in my post. I was just wondering if anyone else had ever discussed this before. He may have sparked the thought, but he wasn't the object of it!
There are two skills that I gained while in The Way Ministry. Unfortunately, I am a very good sheetrocker and am still in demand in the building trade and at 46, can still hold my own and then some with most young buck sheetrockers. I hung lots of the rock out at Gunnison under the tuteledge of Way Builders, and continued in my growing skill at it when I graduated and went to Alaska and got my contractors license. I have continued in many other aspects of the building trade. I said "unfortunately" because it is tough work, and my shoulders are getting somewhat shot by now. But it is good honest hard work with my hands.
Also, I love to write. I first began to really love writing when we all had to write our "The Way For Me From Birth To The Corps" autobiography deal doodad. Marcia Falk read mine and told me that I had a "flare for writing" and that I should pursue it. She pointed out a number of my grammatical errors and showed me how to fix it up so it would read better. Shortly after that I wrote a fishing story about a huge Steelhead trout that I hooked byut never landed. I sent a copy to Dr. Wierwille, and he sent copies around to Johnny Townshend, Bob Ledman, LCM, and others. They all liked it, and VPW told me in a letter that he really liked my story, but that if I really wanted to be a writer, I would have to polish up on my grammer, and he suggested the book An Element of Style by Strunk and White, which is an excellent book on writing, grammar, etc.
To this day I have written many short stories and newspaper articles. The skill itself was not gained in The Way Ministry, but the inspiration occurred there and some motivation as well.
I understand what you mean, Hope about many principles being obtainable elsewhere, but there was no possible way I personally would have persued any form of college other than The Way College/Corps program, because I was as intensely comitted to the same ideals as you were: Word Over The World and all that we believed in.
And Jonny you forgot to mention that you have a good sense of humor. This can be easily seen on your Grease Spot Cafe biography. And how are your many wives doing today Jonny? And how is your 10 cow wife especially? Or was that 11 cows?
Cool, Juanny. You really do write well, at least to me and others I'm sure. The better you go, the gooder it gets.
There was a woman in the corps that I was in that had a disability, one arm that didn't work. Looking back, I never spent much time with her really, I was doing all the stuff I was doing and didn't stop a lot to think about her situation. I guess I figured with all our prayer and her believing and all that stuff, she'd be healed one day or I was "too busy". But in the meantime, she dealt with everything I did, with less.
Now I think she did it with more. She was always positive, involved, participating. A little shy like a lot of us were, but very nice. Can't ever remember hearing her complain. Looking back I think in her weakness there were little grains of iron building, taking form, shaping the person she was and would become, inside where it counts. If you don't give up you have a shot and she never gave up.
As the years go on, I see the failings that come to all of us eventually and I think of her. Where I'm able and healthy I tend to not think to much about it, but where I lack, I have to work to improve if I'm going to do what I want. She must have worked so much harder everyday than I can ever imagine. Meanwhile I moved along so easily by comparison but she was much stronger really. But in weakness, strength can be forged in unlikely ways.
For better or worse, the time in the Way Corps was like time anywhere would have been for me I think, but with some really incredible people. Most everyone I met was unique. If I had to do it over I probably would but I'd spend a lot more time getting to know everyone. More and more I can see this life has been so good, but when this one's over I won't be coming back this way again, not by the same route anyway. :)--> It's kind of corny but I'd like to have as much of all the great people I've known with me to remember and enjoy - if all the bad were burned away and all the best moments rolled in to one and handed back to me - that would be a mighty fine place to start eternity :)-->
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WordWolf
Johnny Lingo,
Congrats on getting genuine benefits from the copse.
I won't doubt your words.
However, I do question whether you got what SHOULD have been the emphasis
of the program, out of the program.
Further, from what I've seen, you would have gotten much of the same if
you signed up for the Reserves or the National Guard, and gotten paid
rather than paid them. More, various organizations teach
managerial skills" out there, professionally. I try to bring in an
expert on a subject if I can. twi always seemed to be loaded with
leadership who thought they were experts on EVERYTHING.
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ex10
Oakspear
I think you really hit on something big, when you mentioned the "consistency" factor in the way corps. The way corps experience was not "consistent" for those of us who went through it, neither were the results of the training "consistent."
One of the reasons for this, I think, was that there were so many of us who had varying degrees of life's experience, different talents and abilities, areas of interest, etc. Yet, we were not treated as individuals, but one giant mass, that was supposed to march perfectly in step to the same cadence, no matter what.
Heck, even in college there is some latitude in what you can study, depending on your individual interests, goals, talents, etc. You have your own individual curriculum, and determine your own destiny, to a point.
But in the way corps, none of that was taken into consideration, IMO. If you didn't fit a certain "mold," then nobody knew what to do with you too much. So pressure was applied to "conform." And the "image" or the "mold" kept changing, according to who happened to be "in charge."
Individuality was really a threat. And I think it got progressively worse as time went on, especially after the "splintering" of TWI.
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J0nny Ling0
Ala P
But, somebody did play pretty music on the harmonica for ya!
JL
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Dartanian3m
EX10
your heart and understanding is so pure and healing:
ie "Their view is just as valid as anybody elses. Sigh.....We all need to sort out our past for ourselves, and we don't have to all feel the same way about everything, or else we're right back in the cult"
Thank you for being you.
and by the way whose pic-the cute woman- that shows up with all your posts
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GrouchoMarxJr
A little boy touches a hot stove and burns his hand. Did he get anything "good" out of the experience? Of course he did. He learned not to touch a hot stove again, which is a valuble learning lesson.
In that sense, I did learn something from my corps experience. Thanks to the corruption and deception of so-called twi leaders, I now have a fully functionable bull.... meter.
Perhaps having mud fights and sitting around a campfire, singing Kumbiya validates the experience for some of you, but for me, it falls short. When I consider that we were dealing with very important life issues, I cannot easily overlook the fact that these people were lying in God's name.
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oldiesman
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Tom Strange
not a TOTAL scam... I learned some stuff and made some friends... I don't know, I might have learned that same stuff and made those friends anyway...
I think regardless of your mindset going in, very few came away "fully satisfied"...
It wasn't so bad for me, not perfect but not a TOTAL scam... but then again, I wasn't a young woman either... and the fact that all that crap was going on "behind the scenes" kind of poops the whole thing up for me in hindsight...
I do treasure some of the memories (those not taken by my advanced case of CRS)... and there are some I can do without...
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gladtobeout
Yes I was sleep deprived, worked like a dog, treated less than a son of God should be treated, BUT I did learn some wonderful, good information and experience. It is also a place that I met my wonderful husband. I believe that God worked in the situation to help me learn and grow. I believe that the corpse was the best thing available for me at that time to help me grow and learn. I have to fight to keep from being bitter sometimes, but I remain thankful for the good that I have learned. If I would have been one of those unfortunate ladies to have been abused, I'm sure that my opinions would have been quite different and I would probably not speak kindly in any way toward TWI. I pray that there is sweet justice for the abused ladies. For any of the abusers that are still alive, I pray that justice comes very swift.For the abusers that are deceased, I believe that God will not let it go unpunished. I pray for great healing for all victims.IMHO
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J0nny Ling0
If it was all so totally rotten, how come the Ninth Corps thread has over a hundred pages to it? Seems like some wonderful friendships were made in the Ninth, as I know that they were in the Tenth and so many of the others...My wife is from the Seventh, and I am thankful that I was in The Way so I could have met her and had four wonderful children by her...
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J0nny Ling0
Hey your Hairiness-
You really are a smarta$$ aren't you? I never once sang Kumbyah in the Corps...
:P-->
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Tom Strange
well Jonny the Linguist... that's because many of us in the 9th corps were (and are) certifiably insane (kinda like Crazy Eddie's prices)... none of the other corps threads are like that one... "they" won't let you use that in your test group...
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Tom Strange
But ya know... there is a feeling that I've run into a lot in my 20+ years out... and that is that there is rarely anything I run into (mental or physical obstacle) that I don't think I can overcome... because we were pushed so hard... I've found myself through the years going "that's nothing, I've pushed myself harder before"... know what I mean?
but like I said above, I wasn't a young woman and didn't know about a lot of stuff back then...
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J0nny Ling0
Yeah, like I told one gal a bit back on this thread, I was pretty shocked to hear of the predatory .... by the upper mucky mucks.
But yes, even though we coulda learned some of the same stuff in let's say the USMC, or Navy or Army, we learned it in the Way Corps, and it has worked for me...
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A la prochaine
Yes they did!
:D-->
But even my LEAD experience turned into a fiasco. When I got back, I was ONCE AGAIN called to JL's office. He read my LEAD appraisal and told me that I was accused of lying during LEAD.
:o-->
Yes, one of those wonderful fearless LEAD leaders wrote that I had said I needed to go to bathroom while we were hicking and that that was just an excuse I had made to have a rest break.
Of course JAL believed them and not me.
-->
Just another chapter in my way corpse
experience!
The Way Corps ... Welcome to the land of the annally retentive!
:D-->
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Lifted Up
A few things I'd like to mention...
There seems to be what I always have suspected...quite a difference in experiences between those of us who were in residence in the 70s...and those who were in from the late 80z through the 90s. Especially in the good times, the extra-curricular activities, the getting away with things (which even a quiet person like me was able to be a participant), and the regulation of and the accounting for each minute of the day. I have a hunch that in much more recent years, you couldn't get have fun doing a lot of things that I and others in my time did.
For me, one thing that was valuable (which I carry to this day) was the fitness and health thing. That includes the eating. Yes, the in residence corps meals at Emporia in the 70s was not an all you can eat thing. Most (me included) could have eaten more at most meals. Frankly I don't think that was a bad habit to get into. Perhaps it seems a better habit for me now, in my 50s. But I think it was a goos start.
Funny, I never lost any weight though, despite the running and work. I did have a fellow 8th corps Indy buddy and lightbearers partner who lost a hundred pounds and looked much better for it (some of you fellow oldie 6th and 8th may remember the famed General Patton).
On the other hand, another person I knew at Indy who went into the 6th corps (and who i joined for a while at Emporia when I went into the 8th) GAINED weight in residence...she told me once she had never before eaten as regularly as she did before the corps.
And, I think the quality of the food was good. It sure wasn't a diet of Big Macs, Whoppers, monster burgers, and cheesecake.
What does it mean? Okay, that's another debate with perhaps much different answers. But when I hear someone talk about the in residence corps diet as if it ere a starvation diet, and as if the corps people came though it emaciated and unfit, it sharply decreases, to me anyway, the authority and believability of the rest of their testimony.
By the way, I would be interested in being enlightened as to what the corps diet has been like in later years from some of you younger and more recent ex-corps.
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excathedra
well johnny, we just don't see eye-to-eye and i suppose i deserved your reply....
the hairy guy seems more "real" in his outlook to me
i am not trying to dismiss you like you're not a real person
to me, you sound more like a fraternity brother, that's all.
do i sound ....ed off and bitter? sometimes i am, sometimes i'm not. being ....ed on was not fun and i think the way corps experience did ME a lot of damage
as far as the 9th corps thread goes, they are some of the loveliest folks i've ever known
and i also married a wonderful 9th corps person
i hope this post is not insulting
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J0nny Ling0
No Excathedra, your last post was not insulting. I don't really know what a "frat guy" would be like. You mean like an "Animal House" guy? John Belushi?
Look, I grew up lazy and spoiled, and when I wanted my room to be cleaned up, I would just wait long enough until my Mom would get disgusted enough to do it herself. That's small example of my "spoiledness". Also, I was a lousy student, got bad grades from kindygarden on, and finally ended up as a stoner/dropout in '73 in my sophomore year. When I went into the Corps, I went in specifically to be challenged in work habits, Bible study habits, attention to detail type habits, and the physical training type habits. I also wanted to be able to stand up in front of a crowd and be able to teach the Bible and not be "ascaird".
When they asked us to move from one end of the campus to the other just as we were settling in to our first dormitory residence, I looked at it as agood training exercise to switch my "mental gears". When they would say; "ok you all be out on the circle drive in your sweats in ten minutes" when I thought that I was soon going to be drifting off to sleep, even though it was a change of my plans, I looked at it as good training. It certainly didn't hurt me that is for sure.
When I had to write my research paper (wouldn't you know I wrote it on the "work ethic" as found in the Bible), it was the hardest bit of academic anything I ever did in my entire life. And I had alot more time to do it than the two weeks mentioned by Danny. It was victory for me, the stoner/loser that I had once been. Sorry if this doesn't sit well with you folks, but I am not going to lie and say that "it sucked" just so I can fit in with the crowd. We all had different experiences.
Rascal said;
Thanks for the sarcasm on the word "party" Rascal, but ya know, I never said that I doubted you and Ex's valid reasons for not liking your time spent in the Corps. I have simply said that I had gotten good things from MY experience in the Way Corps. And, I had lots of fun too! For me it was not a waste of my youth. I refuse to look at it that way because so many of the things that I use in life that have made me successful are things I learned during those years.
I was very fortunate to have been overlooked as a big shot leader which very well could have led me closer to the ugliness and the abuse, but it happened as it did. But when I hear people saying that we had bad sleep deprivation, not enough food and that we worked like slaves or whatever, sorry, but during the time I was "in" it was tough, but I don't see it as abuse, and it was good for me and many others with whom I still communicate.
But let me put it on record again. I am sorry that you and Excathedra and Uncle Hairy suffered such abuse. Your situation was different than mine, and my situation was good for me.
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Hope R.
I've had this discussion with a few people I've met on GS, so I'll add it to this thread and in no way mean to de-rail it...
Isn't it posssible, if not probable, that some of the good things we learned in the Way Corps couldn't and/or wouldn't have been learned elsewhere?
If I had gone to college, or into the Peace Corps, or gotten a job in the mail room at IBM or some other large company - wouldn't I have learned how to study, help others and work hard? Perhaps I could have learned those things quicker had I not gone into the Corps and done something else.
We can play "what if" forever - but the fact is that the Corps program doesn't hold a patent on the benefits some of us may have received from it.
I could have taken a public speaking course at a community college and gotten credit for it! Or I could even have taken the Dale Carnegie class directly from that company.
Would I have learned many of the good things I picked up in-rez? I honestly believe I would have. I've met so many people my age who never heard of TWI who have worked hard to get where they are. They're moral and ethical and smart, too. Many of them have to travel 3 or 4 days a week as part of their jobs. Some have been transferred because of changes in the companies they work for. In the world today, that's not uncommon - and people have learned to be flexible if they want to keep their jobs.
And what about the military? That's another extreme, I guess. But I think some of the people I met in-rez would have been better off doing 4 years in uniform instead of 4 years in the Way Corps. At least they'd have GI benefits and some college tuition to look forward to instead of not being qualified to do much of anything.
Another point I just thought of is that, other than washing windows, did anyone out there learn a skill or a trade in the Corps they're using today to earn a living? Most of the folks I knew with skills and abilities in-rez had them before they went into the program.
Jonny - it didn't totally suck for me - but I'm not going to laud the program as if it was something so unique that I couldn't have gained the knowledge and skills elsewhere.
Living means learning if one is willing to learn. I refuse to regret those years, but won't fool myself into thinking that there was no other way to get where I am today without having gone through the Corps.
(Not bitter - just trying to look through glasses other than my usual rose colored ones).
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Lifted Up
I don't think Jonny was saying he couldn't have gained the knowledge elsewhere. I think the key...for HIM (not necessarily someone else in particular) may be that perhaps he WOULDN'T have gained the knowledge elsewhere. For example, there are oodles of places one can do academic research and writing. And, many might gasp at the thought of comparing Way Corps research to this or that university. But, according to Jonny's testimony, the corps did benefit him in that way. Perhaps it is the same for the other things Jonny says he learned in the corps that have helped make him successful.
If Jonny does not deny someone else's testimony about their unpleasant experiences...and I think he has made it clear that he doesn't...then I don't think giving his own testimony about the things that have helped him that he learned in the corps is looking through rose colored glasses.
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GrouchoMarxJr
When I started this thread I was honestly curious about what everyone thought about their corps experience. I didn't expect the same answers from everyone and I sure didn't get the same answers, and that's a good thing.
I have no argument with those who found it a valuble experience. I enjoy the debate from both points of view, but honestly, there's no need for anyone to feel defensive about their position. I suspect that you're all really fine people.
About the food...all I said was that my rations were cut in half. It WAS healthier food than what I was used to and the reduced portions were healthier for me too. Between the food and the running, I was in fabulous shape. I went into the corps weighing 190 and came out at 155. Today I am about 180...too many cheeseburgers and beer.
The truth of the matter is that I could have gotten the same results following Jack LaLaine instead of veepee wierwille...and saved a lot of money in the process.
I keep hearing about all the great friendships and even marriages that came about as a result of being in the corps. That's really swell but doesn't really have anything to do with the corps training itself. If you met your spouse or good friend while serving time in prison, perhaps you could expound on the value of your prison experience as well.
Sorry folks, I just can't get away from the fact that twi leaders lied to us in God's name about some pretty important stuff. To me that overshadows any incidental nicities that I may have picked up while being in residence. It's sorta like the question posed to Mrs Lincoln after her husband was assassinated at Ford theatre. "Besides the other thing that happened, Mrs Lincoln, how did you like the play?"
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Hope R.
Lifted - I wasn't referring only to Jonny in my post. I was just wondering if anyone else had ever discussed this before. He may have sparked the thought, but he wasn't the object of it!
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J0nny Ling0
There are two skills that I gained while in The Way Ministry. Unfortunately, I am a very good sheetrocker and am still in demand in the building trade and at 46, can still hold my own and then some with most young buck sheetrockers. I hung lots of the rock out at Gunnison under the tuteledge of Way Builders, and continued in my growing skill at it when I graduated and went to Alaska and got my contractors license. I have continued in many other aspects of the building trade. I said "unfortunately" because it is tough work, and my shoulders are getting somewhat shot by now. But it is good honest hard work with my hands.
Also, I love to write. I first began to really love writing when we all had to write our "The Way For Me From Birth To The Corps" autobiography deal doodad. Marcia Falk read mine and told me that I had a "flare for writing" and that I should pursue it. She pointed out a number of my grammatical errors and showed me how to fix it up so it would read better. Shortly after that I wrote a fishing story about a huge Steelhead trout that I hooked byut never landed. I sent a copy to Dr. Wierwille, and he sent copies around to Johnny Townshend, Bob Ledman, LCM, and others. They all liked it, and VPW told me in a letter that he really liked my story, but that if I really wanted to be a writer, I would have to polish up on my grammer, and he suggested the book An Element of Style by Strunk and White, which is an excellent book on writing, grammar, etc.
To this day I have written many short stories and newspaper articles. The skill itself was not gained in The Way Ministry, but the inspiration occurred there and some motivation as well.
I understand what you mean, Hope about many principles being obtainable elsewhere, but there was no possible way I personally would have persued any form of college other than The Way College/Corps program, because I was as intensely comitted to the same ideals as you were: Word Over The World and all that we believed in.
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Mark Sanguinetti
And Jonny you forgot to mention that you have a good sense of humor. This can be easily seen on your Grease Spot Cafe biography. And how are your many wives doing today Jonny? And how is your 10 cow wife especially? Or was that 11 cows?
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socks
Cool, Juanny. You really do write well, at least to me and others I'm sure. The better you go, the gooder it gets.
There was a woman in the corps that I was in that had a disability, one arm that didn't work. Looking back, I never spent much time with her really, I was doing all the stuff I was doing and didn't stop a lot to think about her situation. I guess I figured with all our prayer and her believing and all that stuff, she'd be healed one day or I was "too busy". But in the meantime, she dealt with everything I did, with less.
Now I think she did it with more. She was always positive, involved, participating. A little shy like a lot of us were, but very nice. Can't ever remember hearing her complain. Looking back I think in her weakness there were little grains of iron building, taking form, shaping the person she was and would become, inside where it counts. If you don't give up you have a shot and she never gave up.
As the years go on, I see the failings that come to all of us eventually and I think of her. Where I'm able and healthy I tend to not think to much about it, but where I lack, I have to work to improve if I'm going to do what I want. She must have worked so much harder everyday than I can ever imagine. Meanwhile I moved along so easily by comparison but she was much stronger really. But in weakness, strength can be forged in unlikely ways.
For better or worse, the time in the Way Corps was like time anywhere would have been for me I think, but with some really incredible people. Most everyone I met was unique. If I had to do it over I probably would but I'd spend a lot more time getting to know everyone. More and more I can see this life has been so good, but when this one's over I won't be coming back this way again, not by the same route anyway.
:)--> It's kind of corny but I'd like to have as much of all the great people I've known with me to remember and enjoy - if all the bad were burned away and all the best moments rolled in to one and handed back to me - that would be a mighty fine place to start eternity 
:)-->
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