Not long before I bailed, we were invited to take a live version of the class. Apparently, now (or at least then) the wc sit there and read the silly-bus to you! OMG, how much fun that would be! Zzz.... That is what passes for a "live" class now in TWI.
For one thing, you almost had to have a grounding in PFAL for it to make even a minimal amount of sense. Another is, as was mentioned, the screaming confrontation starts the first session. Why would a new person want to subject themself to that? For a "foundational" class, it assumes a pretty high level of committment.
The pseudo-science in there is pretty wacky: the quick dividing of the continents by frozen methane under the ocean (or something like that), the complete misrepresentation of the Big Bang and the salt water womb around the universe would drive off anyone with a high school education.
The whole "Face of the Deep" thing was pretty interesting. Even if you believe that the bible to be literally true in it's physical description of the cosmos, Martindale screws it all up. The most fun I had while an "undercover innie" back in 2001 was when I was asked to teach the "Face of the Deep" segment at fellowship one night. I ignored his syllabus and taught it straight from the bible and came up with a radically different version than Martindale did. What was amazing was that I had several people come up to me and say that they never understood that segment until I explained it!!!! -->
I mentioned on another thread about the lesbian devil segment. I worked that section for over a year and proved that Martindale's conclusions were incorrect. The definitions that he gave for words was demonstrably wrong, and his conclusions were not supported by his supposed evidense.
When I presented all of this to my region coordinator, who was teaching the class live (i.e. reading the syllabus) he said "You may not be able to document his conclusions, but it has to be right because of what we know about homosexuality".
quote: Geologically - it took MILLIONS and MILLIONS of years for the the continental drift to occur -
Hope R -- I do not believe in the millions and millions theory. Nor do I believe in what you are saying is in the WAP class (though I have never taken it).
I do believe that a "literal" 24 hour day is feasible, when "day" and "night" are mentioned in the Word.
If God is God --- why would it take millions of years to "evolve" to the point where we are now? Wh not in 6 days?? -->
LCM apparently needed the world to confirm his revelation. Remember how he was so excited about athletes of the spirit after seeing that movie 'Stayin' Alive'?
While this theory is valid, LCM teaches that the continents were split "in the days of Peleg" (he gets this from Genesis 10:25)! Geologically - it took MILLIONS and MILLIONS of years for the the continental drift to occur - yet LCM says that the bible teaches that it happened in a few years - "... for in his days was the earth divided".
I always thought the 'in his (Peleg's) days was the earth divided' referred to in chapter 11 where all the EARTH was of one language, etc. The geneology given in chapter 11 says Peleg was born 101 yrs after the flood if I did my math right, so 'earth divided' could mean the confounding of their speech.
I'm with dmiller on the part that God could do something like that on that big of a scale that wouldn't take millions of years. It would also explain how those Indians got to North America before Columbus did...or the Vikings.
I agree with Word Wolf on this as I have a differing theory about the splitting of the continents, and the cause of the flood, which can be discussed in the doctrinal forum.
As for the WAP class, ALL of this is completely new to me, and I'd like to hear more about it since I never had the displeasure of taking it.
The main focus of the WAP class was, well, no surprise..............
the teacher!!!!!!!!!
PFAL did the will teach you how things, ever notice that WAP was read and read? Not that reading is bad, just if you are to read and read the chances of ever really examining and seeing the class content is wrong is greatly reduced!
WAP was the worst case of self promotion, ie: I am MOGFOT! Follow me!!!!!!
Thank God I was never be exposed to ubiquitous hidden meaning of WAP. Anyone want to become the next pariah of all truth given to the humble Okie? Somewhere between the rants, cursing and spitting the pure undefiled Word of God...ya think?
Loy-the ultimate master of piffle and just look what it did for him.
I never had the class. But when Ralph came out after the POP and Scheonhiet papers He ran a video of Craigs' teaching.
Maybe one on "Athletes of the Spirit". LCM would talk for around four minutes linking non-sense together. Ralph would pause the tape and say, "Who knows what he just said?"
Nobody did. Then Ralph would say because it does not make sense. It is designed to make you feel stupid.
"GEE, LCM must really be advanced as I cannot even grasp what he says because I am so lowly."
Ralph wrote the sentences out. They were actually not even sentences but rantings (like those nuts on the streets of LA).
We all were able to see the rantings of a mad man. I thank God for Ralph! It really helped to set me free.
I took the class 2 times and no time limits were given in any situation as to the flood, Peleg, the deep etc. Nothing was expounded upon and no threats were given to leave if we didn't like what we were hearing.
It was the advesary working in those who chose not to return or they had chosen earthly matters over God.
The syllabus was read, no questions asked, collaterals were passed out and we were told to study.
No spit..No spittle and no in-depth teaching except instruction in changing commas, periods and the meaning of words to fit their twisted understanding of God's word.
If God is God --- why would it take millions of years to "evolve" to the point where we are now? Wh not in 6 days??
The problems is that people look at a verse of scripture about something happening in a day. Then they look at a sentance from a textbook or scientific report about something happening in millions of years.
It seems to them that those statements while contradictory are equivalent at some level. So they feel justified in choosing the one they feel fits better with all their other beliefs.
But those are not equivalent statements. They come from very different places in very different contexts. Behind the bible verse are a whole lot of decisions people made about canonization, translation, archeology etc - not to mention belief.
Behind the scientific statement are a whole lot of ways of looking at facts and testing theories and research.
You can't just take one statement out of context, say "I like that one so the other I reject". They are not equivalent.
The best analogy I can think of is if I'm arguing with my teenager about why he can't come home after curfew and not liking my decision he says "You're sick, Dad!"
Then I go to my doctor for a physical and after reviewing the tests he says "You're in good health, not sick at all."
Those are not equivalent statements. They each have a context around them that I reject at my own peril.
I took it twice as well and LCM ranted and raved more than once about those who didn't agree with him - which included the students.
As far as the days of Peleg are concerned - google it - apparently LCM didn't come up with that one himself. Of course, credit wasn't given to anyone else either.
Oakspear said: "Why would a new person want to subject themself to that? For a "foundational" class.....?"
I couldn't agree more. I remember when I took it I wondered how a new person would react to the teachings. PFAL might have been wrong, but at least it was "easy to be entreated". We may have been under VP's spell - but we all felt pretty durn good while sitting through the class for the first time - we were "blessed".
The WAP class? Yikes! If I were a newbie, with half a brain, I'd be dazed and confused about half the teachings, not to mention LCM's tirades. Even the old stuff like administrations, body, soul & spirit and "the God-breathed word" were taken apart and made more complicated than my attention span was willing to endure.
Then there was a teaching about the pyramids, which I never bothered to check out because it was so not worth looking into, IMO. It was stuff from Bullinger - and I don't think LCM even understood it.
But when he taught the original sin was lesbian sex - that just about floored me. I wondered about the grads who were sitting in that class along with me and what they thought. Did they actually believe that? Of course, at the time, you didn't dare question the MOG or his teachings - at least not in my area (don't know about LLP's).
Sadie, are you referring to your experience in live teachings? I specifically remember Craig saying the things that Hope remembers from the taped class with him teaching it.
Do you really think that the devil was working in people who did not return or are you being sarcastic? I'm having a hard time reading the tone of voice in your post.
Oh, I almsot forgot, he covers abortion in WayAP also!
Without arguing about scientific theories vs. biblical literalism, what Martindale did was usually to ridicule his misunderstanding of a scientific theory, not the theory itself. Sure, God could do whatever he wants, no argument here, but LCM would act like he was informed on these matters, yet wasn't.
quote:But when he taught the original sin was lesbian sex - that just about floored me.
I never took WAP, and never quite got the lesbian sex deal. I mean, why emphasize only a lesbian aspect; if the Devil manifests as a female and has sex with Adam as well, that wasn't lesbian sex, was it? Could it be that the lesbian teaching was more about getting back at Donna and Rosalie for possibly being more than friends, or am I totally off the wall?
IMHO, and if what various people have told me over the years is true, LCM was really into threesomes long before he taught WAP. Sure would be interesting to know how his warped little mind came up with the original sin being lesbian sex thing. Sure would make a great case study for Abnormal Psych.
I remember taking abnormal psychology in college in the early 70's when homosexuality was still in the book. As a matter of fact my brother in law is a psychology professor and we were just talking about how it used to be taught in abnormal psch in the 70's to early 80's. Now most mainstream psych classes teach that it is quite normal. I don't remember anything being said about threesomes...perhaps it wasn't in old craig's book a KU either.
Thank Gawd I never had to endure the okies version of "Eves a lesbian, I am the great one, give me your money class" Poor Oak spent all that time "working the material" from that class only to be shot down when he showed how stupid it was.
Making this class was, no doubt, a big moment for king okie. He was replacing pfal and finally elevating himself to the position of the "teacher". He probably fantasized that all his minions would be clamoring for his approval on all they believed and did in their lives. His would be the FINAL word in any situation. Nobody would dare question the great man of gawd! And some day, sitting around the campfire, he would finally get to call all his followers..."my kids".
The man should have been dragged off the podium and had his a$$ kicked in front of everybody.
Considering that"Piffle"gave me an almost continuous headache from trying to contort my brain into correlating what was said about the Bible versus what was printed in the BIble---
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Hope R.
Where do we begin? Those of us who sat through that class a few times still don't get half the stuff LCM was teaching. And it wasn't because he was more spiritual than the rest of us... IMO - it was
JustThinking
Not long before I bailed, we were invited to take a live version of the class. Apparently, now (or at least then) the wc sit there and read the silly-bus to you! OMG, how much fun that would be! Zzz.... That is what passes for a "live" class now in TWI.
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WordWolf
I've learned here that those of you who were forced to sit thru lcm's
wap class had to sit thru lcm redefining "original sin".
If vpw's explanation-which as LEAST was not tossed at newbies in the
intro class-was odd and ill-documented,
lcm's seemed invented from whole cloth.
Apparently, his one piece of documentation consisted of a single
painting done in the Renaissance or something. (Feel free to provide
specifics.) He then spins this "explanation" about how the original sin
was some sort of sex act with the devil on the part of both Eve and Adam,
with the devil in the physical form of a woman at the time. So, it was an
"original threesome" that was the original sin of Man.
(I'm not going to speculate on lcm's fixation with threesomes at this time.)
According to you people, this pronouncement naturally results in the entire
room looking puzzled at lcm, wondering if he's lost his mind. Seeing he's
completely lost the room, lcm said "You don't see it? Too bad-I do."
In other words,
'I don't care if it makes no sense at all. Since I'm in charge, that's the
answer, and that's what you'd better be teaching.'
Seems lcm's policy was one of divine fiat. He made little effort, if any,
to actually be scriptural in his answers. He declared certain things were
true, and that others were to adopt his statements as gospel or else.
Never mind if the Bible really says what he's saying.
(Hm, that sounds vaguely familiar.)
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Oakspear
That's right Hope, where do you begin?
For one thing, you almost had to have a grounding in PFAL for it to make even a minimal amount of sense. Another is, as was mentioned, the screaming confrontation starts the first session. Why would a new person want to subject themself to that? For a "foundational" class, it assumes a pretty high level of committment.
The pseudo-science in there is pretty wacky: the quick dividing of the continents by frozen methane under the ocean (or something like that), the complete misrepresentation of the Big Bang and the salt water womb around the universe would drive off anyone with a high school education.
The whole "Face of the Deep" thing was pretty interesting. Even if you believe that the bible to be literally true in it's physical description of the cosmos, Martindale screws it all up. The most fun I had while an "undercover innie" back in 2001 was when I was asked to teach the "Face of the Deep" segment at fellowship one night. I ignored his syllabus and taught it straight from the bible and came up with a radically different version than Martindale did. What was amazing was that I had several people come up to me and say that they never understood that segment until I explained it!!!!
-->
I mentioned on another thread about the lesbian devil segment. I worked that section for over a year and proved that Martindale's conclusions were incorrect. The definitions that he gave for words was demonstrably wrong, and his conclusions were not supported by his supposed evidense.
When I presented all of this to my region coordinator, who was teaching the class live (i.e. reading the syllabus) he said "You may not be able to document his conclusions, but it has to be right because of what we know about homosexuality".
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dmiller
Hope R -- I do not believe in the millions and millions theory. Nor do I believe in what you are saying is in the WAP class (though I have never taken it).
I do believe that a "literal" 24 hour day is feasible, when "day" and "night" are mentioned in the Word.
If God is God --- why would it take millions of years to "evolve" to the point where we are now? Wh not in 6 days??
-->
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johniam
LCM apparently needed the world to confirm his revelation. Remember how he was so excited about athletes of the spirit after seeing that movie 'Stayin' Alive'?
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johniam
quote:
While this theory is valid, LCM teaches that the continents were split "in the days of Peleg" (he gets this from Genesis 10:25)! Geologically - it took MILLIONS and MILLIONS of years for the the continental drift to occur - yet LCM says that the bible teaches that it happened in a few years - "... for in his days was the earth divided".
I always thought the 'in his (Peleg's) days was the earth divided' referred to in chapter 11 where all the EARTH was of one language, etc. The geneology given in chapter 11 says Peleg was born 101 yrs after the flood if I did my math right, so 'earth divided' could mean the confounding of their speech.
I'm with dmiller on the part that God could do something like that on that big of a scale that wouldn't take millions of years. It would also explain how those Indians got to North America before Columbus did...or the Vikings.
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WordWolf
We can discuss that in the Doctrinal forum
without derailing the thread about the evils
of wap......
:)-->
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Steve Swenton
I agree with Word Wolf on this as I have a differing theory about the splitting of the continents, and the cause of the flood, which can be discussed in the doctrinal forum.
As for the WAP class, ALL of this is completely new to me, and I'd like to hear more about it since I never had the displeasure of taking it.
Say on please...
Steve.
¥
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Grizzy
The main focus of the WAP class was, well, no surprise..............
the teacher!!!!!!!!!
PFAL did the will teach you how things, ever notice that WAP was read and read? Not that reading is bad, just if you are to read and read the chances of ever really examining and seeing the class content is wrong is greatly reduced!
WAP was the worst case of self promotion, ie: I am MOGFOT! Follow me!!!!!!
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Doze
Thank God I was never be exposed to ubiquitous hidden meaning of WAP. Anyone want to become the next pariah of all truth given to the humble Okie? Somewhere between the rants, cursing and spitting the pure undefiled Word of God...ya think?
Loy-the ultimate master of piffle and just look what it did for him.
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Dot Matrix
Hope
I never had the class. But when Ralph came out after the POP and Scheonhiet papers He ran a video of Craigs' teaching.
Maybe one on "Athletes of the Spirit". LCM would talk for around four minutes linking non-sense together. Ralph would pause the tape and say, "Who knows what he just said?"
Nobody did. Then Ralph would say because it does not make sense. It is designed to make you feel stupid.
"GEE, LCM must really be advanced as I cannot even grasp what he says because I am so lowly."
Ralph wrote the sentences out. They were actually not even sentences but rantings (like those nuts on the streets of LA).
We all were able to see the rantings of a mad man. I thank God for Ralph! It really helped to set me free.
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sadie
I took the class 2 times and no time limits were given in any situation as to the flood, Peleg, the deep etc. Nothing was expounded upon and no threats were given to leave if we didn't like what we were hearing.
It was the advesary working in those who chose not to return or they had chosen earthly matters over God.
The syllabus was read, no questions asked, collaterals were passed out and we were told to study.
No spit..No spittle and no in-depth teaching except instruction in changing commas, periods and the meaning of words to fit their twisted understanding of God's word.
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My3Cents
The problems is that people look at a verse of scripture about something happening in a day. Then they look at a sentance from a textbook or scientific report about something happening in millions of years.
It seems to them that those statements while contradictory are equivalent at some level. So they feel justified in choosing the one they feel fits better with all their other beliefs.
But those are not equivalent statements. They come from very different places in very different contexts. Behind the bible verse are a whole lot of decisions people made about canonization, translation, archeology etc - not to mention belief.
Behind the scientific statement are a whole lot of ways of looking at facts and testing theories and research.
You can't just take one statement out of context, say "I like that one so the other I reject". They are not equivalent.
The best analogy I can think of is if I'm arguing with my teenager about why he can't come home after curfew and not liking my decision he says "You're sick, Dad!"
Then I go to my doctor for a physical and after reviewing the tests he says "You're in good health, not sick at all."
Those are not equivalent statements. They each have a context around them that I reject at my own peril.
I know this was a bit off topic. Sorry.
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Zshot
This thread makes me glad that I got out of twi before this "class" came out...
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Hope R.
Sadie - did you take the class on video or live?
I took it twice as well and LCM ranted and raved more than once about those who didn't agree with him - which included the students.
As far as the days of Peleg are concerned - google it - apparently LCM didn't come up with that one himself. Of course, credit wasn't given to anyone else either.
Oakspear said: "Why would a new person want to subject themself to that? For a "foundational" class.....?"
I couldn't agree more. I remember when I took it I wondered how a new person would react to the teachings. PFAL might have been wrong, but at least it was "easy to be entreated". We may have been under VP's spell - but we all felt pretty durn good while sitting through the class for the first time - we were "blessed".
The WAP class? Yikes! If I were a newbie, with half a brain, I'd be dazed and confused about half the teachings, not to mention LCM's tirades. Even the old stuff like administrations, body, soul & spirit and "the God-breathed word" were taken apart and made more complicated than my attention span was willing to endure.
Then there was a teaching about the pyramids, which I never bothered to check out because it was so not worth looking into, IMO. It was stuff from Bullinger - and I don't think LCM even understood it.
But when he taught the original sin was lesbian sex - that just about floored me. I wondered about the grads who were sitting in that class along with me and what they thought. Did they actually believe that? Of course, at the time, you didn't dare question the MOG or his teachings - at least not in my area (don't know about LLP's).
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WaywardWayfer
Sadie, are you referring to your experience in live teachings? I specifically remember Craig saying the things that Hope remembers from the taped class with him teaching it.
Do you really think that the devil was working in people who did not return or are you being sarcastic? I'm having a hard time reading the tone of voice in your post.
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Oakspear
Oh, I almsot forgot, he covers abortion in WayAP also!
Without arguing about scientific theories vs. biblical literalism, what Martindale did was usually to ridicule his misunderstanding of a scientific theory, not the theory itself. Sure, God could do whatever he wants, no argument here, but LCM would act like he was informed on these matters, yet wasn't.
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oldiesman
I never took WAP, and never quite got the lesbian sex deal. I mean, why emphasize only a lesbian aspect; if the Devil manifests as a female and has sex with Adam as well, that wasn't lesbian sex, was it? Could it be that the lesbian teaching was more about getting back at Donna and Rosalie for possibly being more than friends, or am I totally off the wall?
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ex10
IMHO, and if what various people have told me over the years is true, LCM was really into threesomes long before he taught WAP. Sure would be interesting to know how his warped little mind came up with the original sin being lesbian sex thing. Sure would make a great case study for Abnormal Psych.
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Doze
I remember taking abnormal psychology in college in the early 70's when homosexuality was still in the book. As a matter of fact my brother in law is a psychology professor and we were just talking about how it used to be taught in abnormal psch in the 70's to early 80's. Now most mainstream psych classes teach that it is quite normal. I don't remember anything being said about threesomes...perhaps it wasn't in old craig's book a KU either.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Thank Gawd I never had to endure the okies version of "Eves a lesbian, I am the great one, give me your money class" Poor Oak spent all that time "working the material" from that class only to be shot down when he showed how stupid it was.
Making this class was, no doubt, a big moment for king okie. He was replacing pfal and finally elevating himself to the position of the "teacher". He probably fantasized that all his minions would be clamoring for his approval on all they believed and did in their lives. His would be the FINAL word in any situation. Nobody would dare question the great man of gawd! And some day, sitting around the campfire, he would finally get to call all his followers..."my kids".
The man should have been dragged off the podium and had his a$$ kicked in front of everybody.
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templelady
Considering that"Piffle"gave me an almost continuous headache from trying to contort my brain into correlating what was said about the Bible versus what was printed in the BIble---
I am so thankful I was Spared WAP--
You all have my sympathy
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johniam
Ex10: Didn't LCM have a BA in Psychology?
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ex10
john
I always thought his degree was in English. But I don't know for sure. If it was psych, I don't think it's done him much good.
-->
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