I'm not quite sure what you mean. Reagan's statement was not meant to mean that nobody else who might be pro abortion will now be born.
But it is clear that the yet to be born don't have this choice. If you asked some of these TWI people who counselled abortions if they would have liked it if somebody had counselled their mothers in like vein, I wonder what they would say?
rascal, I agree completely! By the way I choose 'fox' over 'wolf' for two reasons. 'She' whose middle name is 'Fox' is as liable as the second mog AND not wanting to use the first part of one of our fine posters screen name. ;)-->
mj412, I'm sure you've heard the saying "if only one believes it would have been worth it". Well that is a hard pill to swallow in light of twi. Yet I would agree my life though ravished was in fact also enabled in ways of godly things. Still this does not negate both the documented and the poster spoken (not counting the ones not even aware of GS) accounts.
I have forgiven! It took quite a long time for me to do so, and it required my leaving that group as the first step. But I have not forgotten nor has it lessoned their crimes one iota. I did so because I agree with part of what you said. It was required for my healing, plain and simple.
I disagree completely! It does come from the top and filters down, the top chose men and women who would follow their mandates and examples and continue downwards their ideology. But it is the responsibility of the head, again the buck stopped there!
oldiesman, as for this thread topic, I believe in freedom of choice, which includes critical consideration. I do not agree with using it as birth control. And I know experientially a child is a living thing before it takes its independent breath.
the corporate ideals here sound and excellent yet somehow in the application of how it is "suppose to be done" get twisted and all to common a bad apple of a manager or leader would run ruin for awhile. for whatever reason it takes time to repair or even be aware of all the details of what is going on and honestly is key to a well functioning anything and people just tend to not want to be honest when it comes to power and prestige and impressing one another with all its glory.
so no one really lives in a vacum of right when the direction is warped YET many left houseis a rockin and that is what speaks volumes. or got kicked out. I know God works in a way I can not understand. at all. to put ryhme and reason and calculation on situations and wide sweeping situation such as the way is merely guessing I think.
no I do not think the higher UP taught people to lie or manipulate or use or abuse one another, I think plenty came with that package already intact and some not a few bought the ticket with their own personal agenda. I just frankly do not think evil of people , I think people got caught up in something and it may have been out of control . victims indeed.
It is about isolation and ignorance and a society racked with co-dependency issues in general.
But as I got older and see the world at large and educated myself and deal with the fact it is the choice of each individual only on how they chose to live regardless of a great deal of humanity. I understand forgivness to others is the key to growing more each day. To live more to do more to open the gates of life its self.
very very few truly know the honest motives of another , or intent really in life and I dare say all have played the fool in that arena eventualy or have chosen to just stay in isolation and ignorance and never ever really experience life in all its glory .
In everything in life leaders are chosen to fill the mandates and goals set up by the organization house a rocking . I often think the cover-ups may have been a type of trying to live within a loving and forgiving attitude towards one another not so much a agreement that wrong is ok. I just do not think evil about people that way. oh yes things went wrong things go wrong but I really do disagree with some of the rather rabid fans of GS who have nothing but hate and bitterness and a sore need for revenge on a group they once all but gave their life up for. it appears to me to be slapping your own self in life and I do understand why a person would be unable to grow anymore spiritualy or in any way in life with such a mid set. hate consumes a person and eventualy destroys the ability to see any good at all.
I will say this one time as I have said it and said it.
If a person now believes abortion is murder and is a pro-life and at one time had an abortion they may have larger issues at hand to deal with on a very personal level . I have seen this group spend a large amount of effort and time trying to redeem what they believe was wrong and make sure it never happens again . Such is the course of regret sometimes.
But twi didnt make abortion legal twi did not lie about their position on how life is defined , and certainly at the corps level people knew it was an option .
planned parenthood and many DR., our law: to have the choice is supported in our culture at large to say twi is evil because they assisted a person who was complaining and seeking consel over an unwed pregnancy is NOT evil untill you put a spin that abortion is murder and any person who felt that strongly should not have been with TWI or have enough personal integrity to say no at the point they chose to disagree.
Look many did disagree with much of what twi was or became and did leave or get kicked out .
the degree you blame twi for your own personal choices in life is your own business. I am willing to take responsibility of being involved in a group that made mistakes huge mistakes, but I can not and will not say it was their responsibility to make me happy or to make solid decision for my life . If a person can "blame" anyone or anything for the state of how they live it may boil down to once again ignorance and isolation , which is a very personal journey one must undertake for their own self. yet sadly few do.
at what point did it take for someone to leave ? it varied did it not?
quote:Can we just accept that we use the word and concept of force differently? When one of the ladies says that she was "forced" to service the MOG, can those who adhere to the literal definition just shut up? I find it hard to believe that you don't know what is being referred to. On the other hand when a poster insists that we are responsible for our own actions, can we refrain from gang tackling that person, because surely we know where they are coming from?
I think what you ask might be impossible. But I see where you're coming from. :)-->
quote:I am willing to take responsibility of being involved in a group that made mistakes huge mistakes, but I can not and will not say it was their responsibility to make me happy or to make solid decision for my life
I feel similar. "The buck stops here." And if there was something I didn't like, that wouldn't be changed, I always knew where the door was and took that path at times.
quote:so no one really lives in a vacum of right when the direction is warped YET many left houseis a rockin and that is what speaks volumes. or got kicked out. I know God works in a way I can not understand. at all. to put ryhme and reason and calculation on situations and wide sweeping situation such as the way is merely guessing I think.
Merely Guessing? So what then MJ-- are folks just supposed to accept it, and burry their heads in the sand like you do? If I see a man go in a bank, shoot a guard, and take money from the teller, am I "merely guessing" that he robbed the bank? When I see him speed away am I "merely guessing" that he doesn't want to get caught. Am I "thinking evil" if I call this man a robber and warn others about him?
Maybe I should I keep my mouth shut and rationalize that God works in ways I don't understand?
quote:no I do not think the higher UP taught people to lie or manipulate or use or abuse one another, I think plenty came with that package already intact and some not a few bought the ticket with their own personal agenda. I just frankly do not think evil of people , I think people got caught up in something and it may have been out of control . victims indeed.
M&A, breaking up families,lock box, tattle-taling, coercing abortion, etc all came from the higher ups. You, like a few others here, intentionally or ignorantly missapply the biblical term of "thinking evil" to try to paint others as "thinking evil" when they speak the facts and truth about TWI and its leaders. You don't know what "thinking evil" is. Seems you have bought TWI's line on that.
"Thinking evil" is to be suspicious of others when there is no cause for suspicion. "Thinking evil" harbors suspicion with out any evidence or proof.
It is not "thinking evil" to conclude that leaders lied, coerced and manipulated when the evidence is blinding.
I was marked and avoided Goey I was hurt and so where some very very innocent members of my families hurt by the actions of others.
Yet the motive is what Im referring too the intent.
I do not think people sat up at night and plotted evil against one another for mere evil sake.
fact is bad things happened and that is why so many left or where kicked out. I can not judge folks oh facts are ok Goey just fine as we all have our story, YET the largest fact is evil happens people abuse one another and folks get hurt in life .
I do not dismiss pain but I surely would think a forum such as this may educate rather than blame.
I didnt keep my mouth shut .
and I was marked for it .
some chose to not obey a leader and left to go to another leader they thought knew even better in life.
it was sales and people bought the package and that is that. I really do not think most plotted to destroy others and others sat around with a gun to their head and said please do not hurt me.
it isnt that simple .
your first paragraph is exactly my point people want to say they had no choice and were forced to accept what they often sought as consel in twi . My point about God working in mysterious ways is the fact that much of the consel or instruction was claimed to be based on the bible and actualy was but twisted to fit the needs of the organization or person telling others what to do.
I see compliance I hear compliance in all of the above situations
Goey , all but being marked and avoided in which a person may have no choice but to do what they ask although I didnt comply and did indeed go back after a number of years .
So someone looks back and says geez I have regrets I should not have thought that way or did that... it must be the organization I was in and how they used peer pressure and any number of actions to persuade me or even an individual person. bad bad evil !!!!
Be real. one day you may wake up and realize everyone does make the choices in their life and must face the fact of the choices they made. I do not judge them or anyone about that bottom line fact.
Grease spot is a platform to scream the injustice of the way , fine and great , it stops with asking someone eles to assume responsibility for what you your own self have decided to do in life. I have said the more ignorant or isolated a person may be concerning life the more difficult this concept becomes.
followers NEED leaders Goey not the other way around and maybe we can be disappointed in the end of the game if you chose to be , but I will say no one Including LCM got away from twi without being hurt .
I can give you a practical example of what Im saying here.
I have a friend who was in great health and feeling wonderful and living a full exciting life.
she went to the dr. who said she should take a pill for a high count of cholesteral , she complied and three weeks later had a very serious side effect caused by the medicine causing her to be unable to stand or walk for the rest of her life.
she trusted her Dr., the Dr. trusted the medicine, the producer of the medicine had tested the drug as much as they thought was possible to make it safe and a positive thing for the health of those who took it.
who is to blame now?
yet the fact remains she is still in a wheel chair forever.
life is like that . the scores of horror storys about twi on ALLL levels just prove it was a mess for many and few are safe from harms way . but who did what when and how is an endless job of making judgement on those in the very same trouble or ignorance or whatever the problem may be.
if it is purely doctrine that is simple you do not think God says that .. so do not do it and leave. but that is NOT how many got hurt people where folowing people for the most part and not thinking the way they may now they are "out". who is to blame exactly?
quote: I do not think people sat up at night and plotted evil against one another for mere evil sake.
fact is bad things happened and that is why so many left or where kicked out.
and, mj, I *think* you're wrong! People were hurt, intentionally. People did sit up at night figuring out ways to get rid of people who a) knew too much b) were too independent c) were a threat and/or d) were just not liked for some reason.
There have been plenty of examples of that given here. If you want more I can give you some.
quote: Be real. one day you may wake up and realize everyone does make the choices in their life and must face the fact of the choices they made. I do not judge them or anyone about that bottom line fact.
AGAIN....NO ONE IS DENYING THAT! THAT'S NOT THE POINT! YOU GET REAL!
Just because your experience may be different from someone else's does not invalidate the other person's experience and it does not mean that it did not happen the way they say it did.
You really sound like the kool-aid drinkers, "Everyone has a choice. No one made you do so and so." Yeah, let's see, I could commit suicide or do what the local wc tells me to do......hmmmm, that's a choice alright.....and that's the way it seemed many times in twi(t)ville. But, you refuse to see it and just won't get it.
Dr W had no right telling someone what to do about their health. He and your friend must have thought he was more than he was. He used his "spirituality" to make people think he was tapped in with God. That is why your friend followed his recommendation. She trusted him; and he obviously didn't have revelation on this situation. It's that kind of thinking that got people in trouble. Too bad your friend had to find out in such a bad way. We were groomed to believe that VPW was spiritual. That is the koolaid we drank. Why would anyone think anything less until God opened their eyes???
I truly believe we were brainwashed. We drank the koolaid--"God's ministry", "Man of God", "God will bless you", "No one else has the Word like we do", "We are the elite of God"....some examples of the koolaid we were given to drink.
Thank God I have learned differently. I will never let anyone have access to my life like twit did. Thank God my wounds aren't physical. My mind and emotions are healing.
I no longer consider the Bible to be authoritative, but I’ll write from a Biblical perspective.
Agree with TWI’s take or not, there is a Biblical basis for the belief that abortion is not murder. There is no Biblical basis for a belief that abortion of a healthy fetus is not wrong, though there may be some leeway for truly free-will abortions, in some instances. There is certainly no Biblical basis for a belief that aborting a healthy fetus is the RIGHT thing to do, in order to fulfill a commitment to God. The sort of “counsel” given to rascal was definitely contrary to many CLEAR passages of the Bible and to its overall message. Pressuring someone to abort a wanted fetus, whether or not that pressure qualifies as coercion or force, is anti-Biblical. Beyond that, it’s contrary to almost any imaginable ethical standard that values human life and normal human desires. I think it’s just plain despicable.
Assuming a pregnancy to be the result of consensual intercourse, there are different scenarios to consider. In none of them would pressuring a woman to abort her pregnancy be Biblically correct. If the woman were married, then ANY Christian “leader” should counsel her to view the pregnancy as a blessing and to do whatever she could to ensure the wellbeing of her fetus and her child, from that point all the way to adulthood, and even beyond. If the woman were single, the desired next step would be for she and the father to marry. That would have been required by law in the Old Testament and expected, if not required, in most societies since then. Assuming that both the mother and father were Christians and reasonably capable people, it would be the only Biblically acceptable counsel a Christian minister could give. If the woman were single and would not be marrying the father, for whatever reason, then the most Biblical advice would be to either raise the child herself or to offer it to a Christian couple for adoption. Regarding the possibility of abortion, the only thing that would even conceivably be supported by the Bible would be to note it as a choice, counsel the woman of the possibility that she would regret such a choice for the rest of her life, and offer to be supportive of whatever she would choose.
Biblically, becoming pregnant is not a “screw-up.” For a married woman, it is a blessing. For a single woman, the screw-up would be sexual activity outside of marriage. Either way, the proper response by a “leader” or “minister” would not be to pressure the woman to have an abortion.
Oldiesman & mj412,
The choice presented to rascal was to do God’s will by getting an abortion or to break a vow to God, walk away from Him and His protection, and face consequences that could include death. The point is not that the choice was “real” or believable now, but that it was very real and believable to her at the time.
BTW, being "not murder" is not a justification for anything. Beating someone up is not murder. Stealing someone's life savings is not murder. Rape is not murder.
quote:There is certainly no Biblical basis for a belief that aborting a healthy fetus is the RIGHT thing to do, in order to fulfill a commitment to God. The sort of “counsel” given to rascal was definitely contrary to many CLEAR passages of the Bible and to its overall message. Pressuring someone to abort a wanted fetus, whether or not that pressure qualifies as coercion or force, is anti-Biblical. Beyond that, it’s contrary to almost any imaginable ethical standard that values human life and normal human desires. I think it’s just plain despicable.
Let me try to respond to this from another angle, a perspective that I think mj412 was trying to make all along, and one that takes most everything rascal said into account. This is a crude example, but I do this to get the point across.
In the context of way world, the way corps program is the greatest commitment of service one can make. Its the word the word and nothing but the word, and in twi-world, movement of that word was paramount. The way corps was the vehicle to move that word, so the way corps was the most important thing. It was the ultimate in godliness.
A woman who makes a commitment to go corps, has made one of the most godly commitments there is. A commitment to move the Word, in the greatest way available. But something happens. She gets pregnant, and that pregnancy interferes with her corps commitment.
Along comes a corps leader, who has been taught all long that a pregnancy, a fetus, is "her fruit". He doesn't really care about her fruit. Let's look at it as a bag of jewels. "Her" bag of jewels.
So the corps leader says to the corps volunteer, "you need to get rid of that bag of jewels", because its keeping you from your corps commitment. "Don't allow that bag of jewels to stop you from receiving a greater treasure, that of your commitment and service to God." Keeping that bag of jewels is being selfish. Get rid of that bag of jewels...God will bless you if you keep your commitment to Him.
So was it evil intent to look at it that the corps leader was forcing, coercing, pressurizing the corps volunteer to abandon their own personal bag of jewels, for a greater treasure, the greatest treasure of twi? I don't think so. It's all a question of one perspective having a higher urgency, a higher importance, than another. Crude as that may seem now.
I was watching tv last night and there was a "Practice" episode that I previously recorded. On it was about Rebecca getting hurt because of a bomb being blown up in the office. Rebecca gets rushed to emergency, on her death bed. The doctor wants to give Rebecca a blood transfusion, to keep her alive. Rebecca's mother, a Jehovah's Witness, says "no", Rebecca is a Jehovah's Witness and she wouldn't want a blood transfusion. "But Rebecca will probably die if Rebecca doesn't get one", Bobby says. The mother still says no, it's more important to carry out what she thinks is God will, even though that probably will result in Rebecca's death.
Was the mother committing evil? Not according to her religious belief, which was more important, and took precedence.
"Intent". I think that's been mj412's point all along.
The choice presented to rascal was to do God’s will by getting an abortion or to break a vow to God, walk away from Him and His protection, and face consequences that could include death. The point is not that the choice was “real” or believable now, but that it was very real and believable to her at the time.`
that was the choice given to many many folks and that is why many left or where thrown out long gone.
quote:My point about God working in mysterious ways is the fact that much of the consel or instruction was claimed to be based on the bible and actualy was but twisted to fit the needs of the organization or person telling others what to do.
And that is what is know as "evil" And it was intentionally done at the top. It has nothing at all to do with "God working in mysterious ways". - It has to do with folks parading as Christian leaders while they spit in Gods face and destroy his people for their own gain.
quote:Be real. one day you may wake up and realize everyone does make the choices in their life and must face the fact of the choices they made. I do not judge them or anyone about that bottom line fact.
Where have I ever said that people don't make choices and aren't responsible for those choices? What I won't do though is whitewash the obvious evil in TWI as just bad choices. Pointing out obvioulsy evil actions of those who knowingly and willingly twist the Word of God for personal gain or "for the ministry" is not "judgement". What bible are using ?
quote:I do not dismiss pain but I surely would think a forum such as this may educate rather than blame.
There's that "blame" word again. It usually goes aong with "judgement" and "bitterness." You mistakenly see holding TWI and it leaders accountable for their actions as "blame" and "judgement". It is not unusual for some misguided folks to misrepresent the exposing of abuse and evil as "blame" and "judgement".
GS does a good job of educating folks about the harm and abuse that was intentioally dished out in TWI. However, your form of "education" sees speaking out against and exposing the abuse and evil in TWI as as "blame" and "judgment". Then you label folks that disagree with your "educated" misrepresentations as being ignorant. I'll kindly pass on your form of education.
quote:"... I will say no one Including LCM got away from twi without being hurt."
Poor Craig ... sniff, sniff. Now who shall we "blame" for that?
quote: I do not think people sat up at night and plotted evil against one another for mere evil sake.
fact is bad things happened and that is why so many left or where kicked out.
and, mj, I *think* you're wrong! People were hurt, intentionally. People did sit up at night figuring out ways to _get rid of_ people who a) knew too much b) were too independent c) were a threat and/or d) were just not liked for some reason.
There have been plenty of examples of that given here. If you want more I can give you some.
quote: Be real. one day you may wake up and realize everyone does make the choices in their life and must face the fact of the choices they made. I do not judge them or anyone about that bottom line fact.
_AGAIN....NO ONE IS DENYING THAT! THAT'S NOT THE POINT! YOU _GET REAL!__
Just because your experience may be different from someone else's does not invalidate the other person's experience and it does not mean that it did not happen the way they say it did.
You really sound like the kool-aid drinkers, "Everyone has a choice. No one _made_ you do so and so." Yeah, let's see, I could commit suicide or do what the local wc tells me to do......hmmmm, that's a choice alright.....and that's the way it seemed many times in twi(t)ville. But, you refuse to see it an
I think the twi experience was very common for many and I think people experience the situations they claim Im not deny that.
If your mental state is at a level you may need to commint suicide or do what a church leader states you should I also see several options or choices.
!) you need expert mental health help.
2) your sought the leaders or the wc for answers.
3) they tried to help you the best way they could with very little genuine skills in dealing with the complex mental health issues many came to them with. they may have even conseled you to leave the group to get professional help for your issues of suicide and drepression.
4) you chose to go with what they thought was going to work in your life and then spend the rest of your life on the internet blaming them for not having the ability to help you.
or
you realized you needed more concentrated or serious help in life and sought professional care concerning your issues in life.
why it had to be with suffering is the very mystery I was referring to.
Long gone
I am not prepared to fight the bible fight about whether abortion is right or wrong I have said all along that is a personal choice that most feel very strongly about one way or the other.
or they have changed their minds on what they believed and now feel differently .
I hear you say you do not think twi should bibly consel abortion.
ok great. but they did and probably still do , and people heeded their consel . that does not make the consel EVIL.
If you believe abortion is EVIL that is another topic and one that has raged on for many decades in our countries courts, in our hospitals,churches etc.in political circles etc. and not one I care to get into .
yet at this point in time abortion or conseling a person to have an abortion is not illegal .
If a person felt as strongly about pro-life abortion issues and had the measure of intelligence and reasoning you have from whatever source and convinced they knew how they felt about it then they would not seek consel would they now?
It was just plain evil for twi leaders to represent abortion as God`s requirement.
For those who accuse me of weanie ing out of my accountability....I accepted my the responsibility of *screwing up*...big time...I knew that pregnancy onthe wow field was unacceptable... I left didn`t even ask if I could stay...I knew that my sin was beyond fixing......I wrote my letter excusing myself from service in the corpes...as I knew that I was no longer worthey or qualified to continue...there was no doubt in my mind that I had sinned was spiritual slime...and would suffer the consequences...but I was prepared...with head up and shoulders back to take it on the chin...cause I knew that it was I and nobody else who had *blown* it
I was deeply shamed ...btw up to this point it was very foreign behavior for me in 8 yrs of twi involvement...but accepted my shame....the consequences of my actions...
I left with the intentions of marrying the father....
That was not acceptable however....I was brought back and *educated* as to my responsibilities...I must not break my vow to God....period for any reason...to do so would be to suffer grave consequences...
I don`t understand what my lack of morality ...my obviously debilitated mental state...or current religious belief has anything to do with the egregious act of twi leaders in declaring that God demanded I abort this child....and had it been just me...I might have considered it just one incident of bad councel....however I have found through the years...that it was the standard teaching in these situations....
And don`t kid yourselves....it happened to the married couples in the corpes as well....and then sometimes, not only did wife have leadership pressure but her husband as well ... insisting that she comply....lest both their spiritual lives be ruines.....
I do not understand why you mj and oldies are hasseling me over what they taught....
Nothing that you guys have brought up in your attempt to cast aspersions on my veracity...my obvious mental deficiancies or my poor personal morals (incidentallY instilled BY twi) at the time.....I don`t see how that in ANY way negates or changes the vileness of these guys posing as christian leaders demanding these things and others in God`s name.....
I see true courage mj and oldies...as when you finally look at the sin in your life...and acknowledge it in all its hideousness....rather than pretending it was all ok because My or their *hearts* were in the right place...its THEN that you begin to accept responsibility for the harm caused.......to understand your accountability...and humbly ask for forgiveness....all the while knowing that though forgiven....you can never truly *fix* the harm that you have done...but become adamant in your resolve to try to become as giving/good a person as is possible...to try to make the world in some measure a little better place maybe attempting to give back what you in your foolishness have taken away....
oh boy aint that THE TRUTH!!!!! and then some . and depending on your ability to sperate yourself from the cult and at what point the line was drawn for your own life is when ther"situations" hit the fan .
It was a sale and I bought it .
Rascal relax just a little bit this is not all about you, it is simply a thread on a ex-way forum.
you do not have to make a defense stance in this discussion if you chose not too.
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mj:
I'm not quite sure what you mean. Reagan's statement was not meant to mean that nobody else who might be pro abortion will now be born.
But it is clear that the yet to be born don't have this choice. If you asked some of these TWI people who counselled abortions if they would have liked it if somebody had counselled their mothers in like vein, I wonder what they would say?
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houseisarockin
rascal, I agree completely! By the way I choose 'fox' over 'wolf' for two reasons. 'She' whose middle name is 'Fox' is as liable as the second mog AND not wanting to use the first part of one of our fine posters screen name.
;)-->
mj412, I'm sure you've heard the saying "if only one believes it would have been worth it". Well that is a hard pill to swallow in light of twi. Yet I would agree my life though ravished was in fact also enabled in ways of godly things. Still this does not negate both the documented and the poster spoken (not counting the ones not even aware of GS) accounts.
I have forgiven! It took quite a long time for me to do so, and it required my leaving that group as the first step. But I have not forgotten nor has it lessoned their crimes one iota. I did so because I agree with part of what you said. It was required for my healing, plain and simple.
I disagree completely! It does come from the top and filters down, the top chose men and women who would follow their mandates and examples and continue downwards their ideology. But it is the responsibility of the head, again the buck stopped there!
oldiesman, as for this thread topic, I believe in freedom of choice, which includes critical consideration. I do not agree with using it as birth control. And I know experientially a child is a living thing before it takes its independent breath.
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mj412
I once worked for a very large company.
the corporate ideals here sound and excellent yet somehow in the application of how it is "suppose to be done" get twisted and all to common a bad apple of a manager or leader would run ruin for awhile. for whatever reason it takes time to repair or even be aware of all the details of what is going on and honestly is key to a well functioning anything and people just tend to not want to be honest when it comes to power and prestige and impressing one another with all its glory.
so no one really lives in a vacum of right when the direction is warped YET many left houseis a rockin and that is what speaks volumes. or got kicked out. I know God works in a way I can not understand. at all. to put ryhme and reason and calculation on situations and wide sweeping situation such as the way is merely guessing I think.
no I do not think the higher UP taught people to lie or manipulate or use or abuse one another, I think plenty came with that package already intact and some not a few bought the ticket with their own personal agenda. I just frankly do not think evil of people , I think people got caught up in something and it may have been out of control . victims indeed.
It is about isolation and ignorance and a society racked with co-dependency issues in general.
But as I got older and see the world at large and educated myself and deal with the fact it is the choice of each individual only on how they chose to live regardless of a great deal of humanity. I understand forgivness to others is the key to growing more each day. To live more to do more to open the gates of life its self.
very very few truly know the honest motives of another , or intent really in life and I dare say all have played the fool in that arena eventualy or have chosen to just stay in isolation and ignorance and never ever really experience life in all its glory .
In everything in life leaders are chosen to fill the mandates and goals set up by the organization house a rocking . I often think the cover-ups may have been a type of trying to live within a loving and forgiving attitude towards one another not so much a agreement that wrong is ok. I just do not think evil about people that way. oh yes things went wrong things go wrong but I really do disagree with some of the rather rabid fans of GS who have nothing but hate and bitterness and a sore need for revenge on a group they once all but gave their life up for. it appears to me to be slapping your own self in life and I do understand why a person would be unable to grow anymore spiritualy or in any way in life with such a mid set. hate consumes a person and eventualy destroys the ability to see any good at all.
I will say this one time as I have said it and said it.
If a person now believes abortion is murder and is a pro-life and at one time had an abortion they may have larger issues at hand to deal with on a very personal level . I have seen this group spend a large amount of effort and time trying to redeem what they believe was wrong and make sure it never happens again . Such is the course of regret sometimes.
But twi didnt make abortion legal twi did not lie about their position on how life is defined , and certainly at the corps level people knew it was an option .
planned parenthood and many DR., our law: to have the choice is supported in our culture at large to say twi is evil because they assisted a person who was complaining and seeking consel over an unwed pregnancy is NOT evil untill you put a spin that abortion is murder and any person who felt that strongly should not have been with TWI or have enough personal integrity to say no at the point they chose to disagree.
Look many did disagree with much of what twi was or became and did leave or get kicked out .
the degree you blame twi for your own personal choices in life is your own business. I am willing to take responsibility of being involved in a group that made mistakes huge mistakes, but I can not and will not say it was their responsibility to make me happy or to make solid decision for my life . If a person can "blame" anyone or anything for the state of how they live it may boil down to once again ignorance and isolation , which is a very personal journey one must undertake for their own self. yet sadly few do.
at what point did it take for someone to leave ? it varied did it not?
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oldiesman
Oakspear
I think what you ask might be impossible. But I see where you're coming from.Link to comment
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oldiesman
mj412
I feel similar. "The buck stops here." And if there was something I didn't like, that wouldn't be changed, I always knew where the door was and took that path at times.
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Goey
MJ,
Merely Guessing? So what then MJ-- are folks just supposed to accept it, and burry their heads in the sand like you do? If I see a man go in a bank, shoot a guard, and take money from the teller, am I "merely guessing" that he robbed the bank? When I see him speed away am I "merely guessing" that he doesn't want to get caught. Am I "thinking evil" if I call this man a robber and warn others about him?
Maybe I should I keep my mouth shut and rationalize that God works in ways I don't understand?
M&A, breaking up families,lock box, tattle-taling, coercing abortion, etc all came from the higher ups. You, like a few others here, intentionally or ignorantly missapply the biblical term of "thinking evil" to try to paint others as "thinking evil" when they speak the facts and truth about TWI and its leaders. You don't know what "thinking evil" is. Seems you have bought TWI's line on that."Thinking evil" is to be suspicious of others when there is no cause for suspicion. "Thinking evil" harbors suspicion with out any evidence or proof.
It is not "thinking evil" to conclude that leaders lied, coerced and manipulated when the evidence is blinding.
There is plenty of evidence.
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mj412
I was marked and avoided Goey I was hurt and so where some very very innocent members of my families hurt by the actions of others.
Yet the motive is what Im referring too the intent.
I do not think people sat up at night and plotted evil against one another for mere evil sake.
fact is bad things happened and that is why so many left or where kicked out. I can not judge folks oh facts are ok Goey just fine as we all have our story, YET the largest fact is evil happens people abuse one another and folks get hurt in life .
I do not dismiss pain but I surely would think a forum such as this may educate rather than blame.
I didnt keep my mouth shut .
and I was marked for it .
some chose to not obey a leader and left to go to another leader they thought knew even better in life.
it was sales and people bought the package and that is that. I really do not think most plotted to destroy others and others sat around with a gun to their head and said please do not hurt me.
it isnt that simple .
your first paragraph is exactly my point people want to say they had no choice and were forced to accept what they often sought as consel in twi . My point about God working in mysterious ways is the fact that much of the consel or instruction was claimed to be based on the bible and actualy was but twisted to fit the needs of the organization or person telling others what to do.
I see compliance I hear compliance in all of the above situations
Goey , all but being marked and avoided in which a person may have no choice but to do what they ask although I didnt comply and did indeed go back after a number of years .
So someone looks back and says geez I have regrets I should not have thought that way or did that... it must be the organization I was in and how they used peer pressure and any number of actions to persuade me or even an individual person. bad bad evil !!!!
Be real. one day you may wake up and realize everyone does make the choices in their life and must face the fact of the choices they made. I do not judge them or anyone about that bottom line fact.
Grease spot is a platform to scream the injustice of the way , fine and great , it stops with asking someone eles to assume responsibility for what you your own self have decided to do in life. I have said the more ignorant or isolated a person may be concerning life the more difficult this concept becomes.
followers NEED leaders Goey not the other way around and maybe we can be disappointed in the end of the game if you chose to be , but I will say no one Including LCM got away from twi without being hurt .
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mj412
I can give you a practical example of what Im saying here.
I have a friend who was in great health and feeling wonderful and living a full exciting life.
she went to the dr. who said she should take a pill for a high count of cholesteral , she complied and three weeks later had a very serious side effect caused by the medicine causing her to be unable to stand or walk for the rest of her life.
she trusted her Dr., the Dr. trusted the medicine, the producer of the medicine had tested the drug as much as they thought was possible to make it safe and a positive thing for the health of those who took it.
who is to blame now?
yet the fact remains she is still in a wheel chair forever.
life is like that . the scores of horror storys about twi on ALLL levels just prove it was a mess for many and few are safe from harms way . but who did what when and how is an endless job of making judgement on those in the very same trouble or ignorance or whatever the problem may be.
if it is purely doctrine that is simple you do not think God says that .. so do not do it and leave. but that is NOT how many got hurt people where folowing people for the most part and not thinking the way they may now they are "out". who is to blame exactly?
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insurgent
and, mj, I *think* you're wrong! People were hurt, intentionally. People did sit up at night figuring out ways to get rid of people who a) knew too much b) were too independent c) were a threat and/or d) were just not liked for some reason.
There have been plenty of examples of that given here. If you want more I can give you some.
AGAIN....NO ONE IS DENYING THAT! THAT'S NOT THE POINT! YOU GET REAL!
Just because your experience may be different from someone else's does not invalidate the other person's experience and it does not mean that it did not happen the way they say it did.
You really sound like the kool-aid drinkers, "Everyone has a choice. No one made you do so and so." Yeah, let's see, I could commit suicide or do what the local wc tells me to do......hmmmm, that's a choice alright.....and that's the way it seemed many times in twi(t)ville. But, you refuse to see it and just won't get it.
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Nottawayfer
MJ,
Dr W had no right telling someone what to do about their health. He and your friend must have thought he was more than he was. He used his "spirituality" to make people think he was tapped in with God. That is why your friend followed his recommendation. She trusted him; and he obviously didn't have revelation on this situation. It's that kind of thinking that got people in trouble. Too bad your friend had to find out in such a bad way. We were groomed to believe that VPW was spiritual. That is the koolaid we drank. Why would anyone think anything less until God opened their eyes???
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Nottawayfer
I truly believe we were brainwashed. We drank the koolaid--"God's ministry", "Man of God", "God will bless you", "No one else has the Word like we do", "We are the elite of God"....some examples of the koolaid we were given to drink.
Thank God I have learned differently. I will never let anyone have access to my life like twit did. Thank God my wounds aren't physical. My mind and emotions are healing.
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LG
I no longer consider the Bible to be authoritative, but I’ll write from a Biblical perspective.
Agree with TWI’s take or not, there is a Biblical basis for the belief that abortion is not murder. There is no Biblical basis for a belief that abortion of a healthy fetus is not wrong, though there may be some leeway for truly free-will abortions, in some instances. There is certainly no Biblical basis for a belief that aborting a healthy fetus is the RIGHT thing to do, in order to fulfill a commitment to God. The sort of “counsel” given to rascal was definitely contrary to many CLEAR passages of the Bible and to its overall message. Pressuring someone to abort a wanted fetus, whether or not that pressure qualifies as coercion or force, is anti-Biblical. Beyond that, it’s contrary to almost any imaginable ethical standard that values human life and normal human desires. I think it’s just plain despicable.
Assuming a pregnancy to be the result of consensual intercourse, there are different scenarios to consider. In none of them would pressuring a woman to abort her pregnancy be Biblically correct. If the woman were married, then ANY Christian “leader” should counsel her to view the pregnancy as a blessing and to do whatever she could to ensure the wellbeing of her fetus and her child, from that point all the way to adulthood, and even beyond. If the woman were single, the desired next step would be for she and the father to marry. That would have been required by law in the Old Testament and expected, if not required, in most societies since then. Assuming that both the mother and father were Christians and reasonably capable people, it would be the only Biblically acceptable counsel a Christian minister could give. If the woman were single and would not be marrying the father, for whatever reason, then the most Biblical advice would be to either raise the child herself or to offer it to a Christian couple for adoption. Regarding the possibility of abortion, the only thing that would even conceivably be supported by the Bible would be to note it as a choice, counsel the woman of the possibility that she would regret such a choice for the rest of her life, and offer to be supportive of whatever she would choose.
Biblically, becoming pregnant is not a “screw-up.” For a married woman, it is a blessing. For a single woman, the screw-up would be sexual activity outside of marriage. Either way, the proper response by a “leader” or “minister” would not be to pressure the woman to have an abortion.
Oldiesman & mj412,
The choice presented to rascal was to do God’s will by getting an abortion or to break a vow to God, walk away from Him and His protection, and face consequences that could include death. The point is not that the choice was “real” or believable now, but that it was very real and believable to her at the time.
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LG
BTW, being "not murder" is not a justification for anything. Beating someone up is not murder. Stealing someone's life savings is not murder. Rape is not murder.
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oldiesman
Long Gone
Let me try to respond to this from another angle, a perspective that I think mj412 was trying to make all along, and one that takes most everything rascal said into account. This is a crude example, but I do this to get the point across.
In the context of way world, the way corps program is the greatest commitment of service one can make. Its the word the word and nothing but the word, and in twi-world, movement of that word was paramount. The way corps was the vehicle to move that word, so the way corps was the most important thing. It was the ultimate in godliness.
A woman who makes a commitment to go corps, has made one of the most godly commitments there is. A commitment to move the Word, in the greatest way available. But something happens. She gets pregnant, and that pregnancy interferes with her corps commitment.
Along comes a corps leader, who has been taught all long that a pregnancy, a fetus, is "her fruit". He doesn't really care about her fruit. Let's look at it as a bag of jewels. "Her" bag of jewels.
So the corps leader says to the corps volunteer, "you need to get rid of that bag of jewels", because its keeping you from your corps commitment. "Don't allow that bag of jewels to stop you from receiving a greater treasure, that of your commitment and service to God." Keeping that bag of jewels is being selfish. Get rid of that bag of jewels...God will bless you if you keep your commitment to Him.
So was it evil intent to look at it that the corps leader was forcing, coercing, pressurizing the corps volunteer to abandon their own personal bag of jewels, for a greater treasure, the greatest treasure of twi? I don't think so. It's all a question of one perspective having a higher urgency, a higher importance, than another. Crude as that may seem now.
I was watching tv last night and there was a "Practice" episode that I previously recorded. On it was about Rebecca getting hurt because of a bomb being blown up in the office. Rebecca gets rushed to emergency, on her death bed. The doctor wants to give Rebecca a blood transfusion, to keep her alive. Rebecca's mother, a Jehovah's Witness, says "no", Rebecca is a Jehovah's Witness and she wouldn't want a blood transfusion. "But Rebecca will probably die if Rebecca doesn't get one", Bobby says. The mother still says no, it's more important to carry out what she thinks is God will, even though that probably will result in Rebecca's death.
Was the mother committing evil? Not according to her religious belief, which was more important, and took precedence.
"Intent". I think that's been mj412's point all along.
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mj412
Oldiesman & mj412,
The choice presented to rascal was to do God’s will by getting an abortion or to break a vow to God, walk away from Him and His protection, and face consequences that could include death. The point is not that the choice was “real” or believable now, but that it was very real and believable to her at the time.`
that was the choice given to many many folks and that is why many left or where thrown out long gone.
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Goey
MJ,
And that is what is know as "evil" And it was intentionally done at the top. It has nothing at all to do with "God working in mysterious ways". - It has to do with folks parading as Christian leaders while they spit in Gods face and destroy his people for their own gain. Where have I ever said that people don't make choices and aren't responsible for those choices? What I won't do though is whitewash the obvious evil in TWI as just bad choices. Pointing out obvioulsy evil actions of those who knowingly and willingly twist the Word of God for personal gain or "for the ministry" is not "judgement". What bible are using ? There's that "blame" word again. It usually goes aong with "judgement" and "bitterness." You mistakenly see holding TWI and it leaders accountable for their actions as "blame" and "judgement". It is not unusual for some misguided folks to misrepresent the exposing of abuse and evil as "blame" and "judgement".GS does a good job of educating folks about the harm and abuse that was intentioally dished out in TWI. However, your form of "education" sees speaking out against and exposing the abuse and evil in TWI as as "blame" and "judgment". Then you label folks that disagree with your "educated" misrepresentations as being ignorant. I'll kindly pass on your form of education.
Poor Craig ... sniff, sniff. Now who shall we "blame" for that?
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mj412
[or QUOTE]Originally posted by insurgent:
and, mj, I *think* you're wrong! People were hurt, intentionally. People did sit up at night figuring out ways to _get rid of_ people who a) knew too much b) were too independent c) were a threat and/or d) were just not liked for some reason.
There have been plenty of examples of that given here. If you want more I can give you some.
_AGAIN....NO ONE IS DENYING THAT! THAT'S NOT THE POINT! YOU _GET REAL!__
Just because your experience may be different from someone else's does not invalidate the other person's experience and it does not mean that it did not happen the way they say it did.
You really sound like the kool-aid drinkers, "Everyone has a choice. No one _made_ you do so and so." Yeah, let's see, I could commit suicide or do what the local wc tells me to do......hmmmm, that's a choice alright.....and that's the way it seemed many times in twi(t)ville. But, you refuse to see it an
I think the twi experience was very common for many and I think people experience the situations they claim Im not deny that.
If your mental state is at a level you may need to commint suicide or do what a church leader states you should I also see several options or choices.
!) you need expert mental health help.
2) your sought the leaders or the wc for answers.
3) they tried to help you the best way they could with very little genuine skills in dealing with the complex mental health issues many came to them with. they may have even conseled you to leave the group to get professional help for your issues of suicide and drepression.
4) you chose to go with what they thought was going to work in your life and then spend the rest of your life on the internet blaming them for not having the ability to help you.
or
you realized you needed more concentrated or serious help in life and sought professional care concerning your issues in life.
do I think twi had bullies and victims ?
yep I sure do.
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Zixar
I swear I saw that horse twitch. Hand me that two-by-four.
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mj412
being held acountable is a fine thing .
just do not forget your own self in the mix .
I do not chose to pick and chose who is more guilty of what .
it was a cult.
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Steve!
None are so blind as those that will not see.
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mj412
wafernot
yep God does indeed open the eyes .
why it had to be with suffering is the very mystery I was referring to.
Long gone
I am not prepared to fight the bible fight about whether abortion is right or wrong I have said all along that is a personal choice that most feel very strongly about one way or the other.
or they have changed their minds on what they believed and now feel differently .
I hear you say you do not think twi should bibly consel abortion.
ok great. but they did and probably still do , and people heeded their consel . that does not make the consel EVIL.
If you believe abortion is EVIL that is another topic and one that has raged on for many decades in our countries courts, in our hospitals,churches etc.in political circles etc. and not one I care to get into .
yet at this point in time abortion or conseling a person to have an abortion is not illegal .
If a person felt as strongly about pro-life abortion issues and had the measure of intelligence and reasoning you have from whatever source and convinced they knew how they felt about it then they would not seek consel would they now?
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simpleton
In TWI, it has been my experience that people receive counsel whether they ask for it or not.
The armchair quarterback always has the answers and is always eager to share. It would be so nice if hindsight wasn't the only sight that was 20/20.
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rascal
It was just plain evil for twi leaders to represent abortion as God`s requirement.
For those who accuse me of weanie ing out of my accountability....I accepted my the responsibility of *screwing up*...big time...I knew that pregnancy onthe wow field was unacceptable... I left didn`t even ask if I could stay...I knew that my sin was beyond fixing......I wrote my letter excusing myself from service in the corpes...as I knew that I was no longer worthey or qualified to continue...there was no doubt in my mind that I had sinned was spiritual slime...and would suffer the consequences...but I was prepared...with head up and shoulders back to take it on the chin...cause I knew that it was I and nobody else who had *blown* it
I was deeply shamed ...btw up to this point it was very foreign behavior for me in 8 yrs of twi involvement...but accepted my shame....the consequences of my actions...
I left with the intentions of marrying the father....
That was not acceptable however....I was brought back and *educated* as to my responsibilities...I must not break my vow to God....period for any reason...to do so would be to suffer grave consequences...
I don`t understand what my lack of morality ...my obviously debilitated mental state...or current religious belief has anything to do with the egregious act of twi leaders in declaring that God demanded I abort this child....and had it been just me...I might have considered it just one incident of bad councel....however I have found through the years...that it was the standard teaching in these situations....
And don`t kid yourselves....it happened to the married couples in the corpes as well....and then sometimes, not only did wife have leadership pressure but her husband as well ... insisting that she comply....lest both their spiritual lives be ruines.....
I do not understand why you mj and oldies are hasseling me over what they taught....
Nothing that you guys have brought up in your attempt to cast aspersions on my veracity...my obvious mental deficiancies or my poor personal morals (incidentallY instilled BY twi) at the time.....I don`t see how that in ANY way negates or changes the vileness of these guys posing as christian leaders demanding these things and others in God`s name.....
I see true courage mj and oldies...as when you finally look at the sin in your life...and acknowledge it in all its hideousness....rather than pretending it was all ok because My or their *hearts* were in the right place...its THEN that you begin to accept responsibility for the harm caused.......to understand your accountability...and humbly ask for forgiveness....all the while knowing that though forgiven....you can never truly *fix* the harm that you have done...but become adamant in your resolve to try to become as giving/good a person as is possible...to try to make the world in some measure a little better place maybe attempting to give back what you in your foolishness have taken away....
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mj412
Simpleton
oh boy aint that THE TRUTH!!!!! and then some . and depending on your ability to sperate yourself from the cult and at what point the line was drawn for your own life is when ther"situations" hit the fan .
It was a sale and I bought it .
Rascal relax just a little bit this is not all about you, it is simply a thread on a ex-way forum.
you do not have to make a defense stance in this discussion if you chose not too.
as Oak said if it isnt about you then it isnt.
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