quote: Saying there was no choice, is a lie. Or a misrepresentation. Or an exaggeration. Or Victim Mentality Propaganda. Whatever you call it, I don't buy it.
Oldies -- if I were to hold you at gunpoint, and say something like "your money, or your life", you would have a choice.
If I were to hold you at gunpoint and say something like "step into speeding traffic, or else", you would have a choice.
And if I were to handcuff you, and toss you into a lake saying "sink, or swim", again you would have a choice.
The two "constants" in these hypothetical situations are the fact that either way you suffer harm, but _you have a choice_.
You say that a "choice" was offered to those women, yet I see it as a choice that is as "desirable" as the ones I am postulating here, for you. -->
If I were to be confronted by "church" authority for being a lying, drunk, thief that needs to "clean up his act" before resuming fellowship with that church, that would be a "choice" I could live with.
That is NOT the case that Rascal, and others have stated here. The "choice" offered to them was indeed a "choice", but either way they went would be a lose/lose situation, therefore not a _viable choice_ at all. They were told to "sink or swim", and given the coercion that twi used to protect those in the upper echelons, it was the same as if a gun were held to their heads.
Now I am curious as to why you got kicked out, since you stated you did not live up to the standards expected. Hmmmm??? I am guessing that whatever you did, it did not include the murder of an innocent life, so I guess that makes you less of a sinner, eh?
I wasn't going to say anything here, but I hate to see you ride rough-shod over Rascal, and spout ignorant, hurtful words that are in no way Godly, or edifying.
I said it in another thread about lcm, but these words can apply to you too, if you do not repent from these attacks. And that is---
"Your words are coming from the south end of a north bound horse."
God, and Jesus Christ are in the business of forgiveness. Sign up today. :)-->
It may read better to say it was not a requirement to have an abortion to be a a believer in the way , which is how I met it to read. I have no doubt rascal or anyone was told any number of things which we chose to believe or not and that is why the grease spot forum is here.
I agree there was pressure to perform, I also know many who left to leave the corps for family issues that could not be resolved at the time they were in residence ,some went back in later when the situation did merit twi's approval once again some did not. but they were not marked and avoided for leaving the corps in the eighties anywyas it happened alot actualy.
I know of one couple that went in four different times years apart and last I knew had left again due to a sick child so I think the way had its prioritity and that was the way and most I assume knew that by the time they made the choice to go into the corps program the requirements of that program.
No I wouldnt have ever compromised my family the way I saw corps families live, but the fact some did chose to think it was what they were suppose to do is not evil and or cowardly as you say Rascal.
If it was a mistake for some as they look back well mistakes happen in life ya know and I do believe God does consider the fact most went in to try to please HIM and His Son or they went in to please the leader friends they thought they had and got disappointed .
quote:Raf, I have to be honest with you, I think she's exaggerating. I'm not calling her an out and out liar, and it's possible these things were said to her -- but I just don't believe everything she says. Period.
Oldiesman,
I can't speak for what you're feeling inside, but I can speak for your words. You're calling her a liar. Period.
Your words indicate more than "I just don't believe everything she says." You are flat-out accusing her of lying. To not see that is to not realize the power of your words.
"I was told ABC."
"I don't believe you."
You're accusing her of lying.
You have every right to do that. It's your prerogative. It's also disgusting.
quote:Originally posted by mj...
It may read better to say it was not a requirement to have an abortion to be a a believer in the way , which is how I met it to read. I have no doubt rascal or anyone was told any number of things which we chose to believe or not and that is why the grease spot forum is here.
I think that's a much better way to make your statement, mj. Thank you for clarifying.
quote: some went back in later when the situation did merit twi's approval once again some did not.
MJ -- with all due respect, "meriting twi's approval" means nothing more to me than them lowering the gun, but keeping it loaded and ready to point again.
If they were a Godly organization, making legitimate "demands" concerning "holy behaviour" that would be in accordance with a scriptural life-style, I could agree. But they
A) were not;
B) did not; and
C) had no clue as to what "Godly behaviour" meant.
Their skewed "morality/ covered by grace" mentality got them to the position where they were able to use their authority as a huge stick, held over those underneath them.
The example I used about a lying, drunk, thief being reprimanded shows that church authority calls ME into account for MY actions, that the church had NO part of.
Contrast that with twi, who put people into difficult situations, and then held up the bible, pfal book, whatever, and demanded for THEM to get their act together, when THEY (twi) had a huge, if not major part in getting the "miscreants" into that position in the first place.
I also know of folks who left, then went back due to various circumstances, but that is a whole different game than being told to "abort the child, or abort your twi "career".
I agree that those who entered the corps program were wanting to do their "best" for both God and Jesus Christ.
Unfortunately -- twi leadership got in the way, and turned a good thing into a shambles.
people were misled no doubt but in many circumstances in life if you can not complete the guidelines for graduation then you do not get the nut.
the pot calling the kettle black ? is that what your saying ?
lolololol hahaha I would agree and then some .
but this issue is about getting pregnate in a program where it is not going to work. folks were told or conseled to get an abortion because many thought as the way taught that a pregnancy is part of the womans own personal issue until the child takes a breath.
this was not a new flash of intimidation the way has always taught that you should not get pregnate while in res and that abortion is an option for an unwanted pregnancy.
if someone thinks it is wrong then they should not get pregnate or not comply with a program that wholly endorses what the way taught as truth or be willing to take the chance and get pregnate and leave the program for your own personal integrity and choices in life.
OK -- whatever. I never was corps, I opted for University of Life instead, and we had no guidelines about "adding" to our families while in the program.
The objective of U OF L was to learn the "Excellence Of The Way Corps Teaching" in our own homes, and put no stipulations on anything except learning the Word.
I assumed (mistakenly, I guess) that such stipulations were not placed on corps. Was there a form you had to sign saying you would remain "childless" while in residence?? If there was -- then what was leadership doing trying to get you to break that commitment, other than satisfying their own lusts?
That alone would make them more guilty than I previously suspected. Again -- they were not a Godly organization, and reguardless what kind of program they were offering, they had no right to say what God did, or did not expect, especially if they were involved in the "breaking of a covenant" as prolifically as is evidenced here.
No -- I am not the pot calling the kettle black. Just calling it as I see it. Even though "a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut", this one is out there in the wide open spaces, for all to see.
The "guilt" is NOT one-sided, though some here refuse to acknowledge that.
Sounds to me that OM and Mike should get together and compare notes on "I just love docvic" or "Why is everbody picin on me" or maybe Mike is OM in desguise or vice versa. But in defence of Mike at least he has a heart, I think oldies lost his or it turned to stone.
I too wonder why TWI would kick OM out, I mean he is likeminded with them. :o-->
I do not know the rules and regs of the corps, I know it was a big deal to "sponor" those who went in and that met they had to write and do certain things that those willing to give them money thought they should do and compliance was of course included.
It was "the word" remember? I always thought those going in the corps where intending on becoming full time ministers of the gospel and to "move the word" in other words get people born again and make twi a place they would honor and yes pledge their commintments to .
I also assumed those going into the corps realized just where twi was coming from on what was important to their life and allegence to leaders and twi was for sure a top notch priority.
I know it must have been difficult for many by the numbers of those I know that left and tried to to get back in find sponors and such. the folks I know that wanted to or went into the corps where rabid twi people and I still have little doubt they knew what it may take from their personal life, family life or anything . many spent a year or more sucking up to the LC before they went in and learned exactly what it was .
Mj..WHO are you claiming that I said was cowardly??? STOP putting words in my mouth...I never called ANYBODY cowardly or intimated that ANYBODY should have made my choice or any other....damn I have no problem with abiding with the corpes program....
What I DO for the umpteenth time...have a MAJOR issue with is leadership claiming that GOD demanded this of me......Why are you turning it into something else?
Read this carefully mj....Not twi demanded this ...not leaders thought this was best...GOD demanded it...ok???? this is what I have a problem with...THEY did NOT have the right to decide that God needed me to kill this fetus.
I did leave the corpes program...wrote my letters...left the wow field to have the child...thats when the coersion began....and pressure to fullfill my commitment began...
Whether it was ordering an unwanted abortion...demanding the casting out of a disobediant child to the streets...forcing themselves sexually on women...face meltings...all was endured and complied with because we were TAUGHT that God demanded this of us...it was wrong...God needed or desired nothing of the sort.
To abuse God's people in the name of committed service for Him when He never sanctioned it and no doubt cried as He observed the abuse is incredible. Good thing for the abuser this is the grace administration.
To state your story that included an ultimatum given if you truly wanted to grow spiritually, which at times included being cut off from council from anyone else is a horrifying place to be. Only those of us who where there will every truly understand the price paid.
Does that negate the truth that some flew through their time in that ministry unscathed at all? No it does not. But it also does not give them a license to deny the ones that were not so fortunate (choice of word used to pi** off lurking eyes).
Accountability and perpetual victim mindset factor into these discussions regularly. I don't see rascal denying the first nor do I see her playing the second.
Rascal coward was your word which you may have edited out by now.
houseisa rocking I was also M@A in a scandal so I do know and you what I see where they where coming from and thank god for it.
Do I think twi was right in what they did? for Gods sake it was a cult and I have said people where used and abused in the name of God but more importantly in the name of one another which was absolutely sick and how the thing got shot to hell in the first place. to say it was all LCM or the particular leader that you chose to think was the appple of the day is being foolish all together it was a group of mind sets that applied the means to have folk compromise what they may have felt right or wrong for them.
that group includes you and me.
if you have changed your mind on the doctrine you chose to believe no kidding many have on many of the stuff sold.
but to say you didnt believe it then and where forced or did it to please a leader or your friends or what ever makes you clearly a liar to yourself and everyone eles.
quote:but to say you didnt believe it then and where forced or did it to please a leader or your friends or what ever makes you clearly a liar to yourself and everyone eles.
MJ, it's called cognitive dissonance. I said and did a lot of things I disagreed with. Yes, it was a lie, but I really thought they were right and/or that I was going to have "God's protection removed" from me if I didn't obey. I'm not saying it's right, but I'm saying it's all I knew to do and all I had the guts to do at the time. I know better now and I'm stronger now. It's not as easy as you seem to think.
it is called many many things wayward, suffering , growing up but the fact remains that is the reason grease spot flourishes.
Easy ??? assumptions are made here and the cult mind set of unity and we all must unite without understanding because we love one another is what grease excels at.
it was not easy it is still not easy I doubt it will ever be easy .
but to grow as a person I do try to stay at least honest and not allow biterness with a self righteous attitude of victim to take root. In each case a particular can blame a particular person if they so chose I do not it was a cult and to get beyond we all need to realize a cult is built on by its people and those who complied.
we grew up it is quite simple really , not easy but simple.
I never EVER called (edited to add I did call the leaders *cowards who hid behind God`s word*) one a coward ...coward was NOT *my word* mj... that is a lie...nor did I EVER intimate that ANYONE in the corpes were..... (oldies said I did but that was a complete lie and misrepresentaion of what I posted) please... reread the thread ...I don`t think you have read or understand my point at all....the ONLY editing that *I* have done is to add on to my existing post....but I suppose you will label THAT as a lie as well?
Consider What else might you have mis read or misrepresented that I have written.....not that I expect you to have the integrety or courage to apologise......anymore than oldies.
Let me say again...I have the deepest respect for those who cared enough about God to put their lives on the line....I understand the desire to love and serve God to the point that you put your whole life aside....THAT isn`t cowardly....it takes a lot of guts
Whether I made the right choice and or wrong or whether other peoples choices who were in the same position ...whether they were right or wrong....the right of twi to enforce their rules.....none of these is at issue.
It was the fact that they enforced those rules with the teaching that God required this ..GOD didn`t ask...REQUIRED....compliance(wish I could highlight this)
It wasn`t a choice of leaving because I made a mistake and could no longer follow the rules...it was you are breaking your vow to God and HE will be ....ed...and you will suffer horrendous consequences.
It was easy to decline to participate in the way corpes or wow program...however..when I was brought back and badgered about how not only was I lying to twi...but God ...and how he delt with vow breakers.....thats when all of those other pressures and teachings were brought into play...
Dissapoint twi...live in shame for unfinished commitments were things that I could handle...and was going too ..Going against God himself ...after all I felt he had done was
What RIGHT did THEY have to say to us *you do these things because God requires it*??
All of these things you accuse me of mj...does not change one whit twi`s teaching about fetus...I still don`t understand how my current personal beliefs...my remorse.. or my personal story even comes into play.....
quote:I did leave the corpes program...wrote my letters...left the wow field to have the child...thats when the coersion began....and pressure to fullfill my commitment began...
And all this time, what I thought you were complaining about, was being bullied and coerced into getting an abortion when you really didn't want to. So you had the child after all?
Nope ... I was found and *invited* to spend some time with the lc`s closing some matters...which I did..when it was pointed out that if I had the child I would be a vow breaker...a liar that God would be mad....annanias and saphira were brought up a lot...that if I disobeyed leaderships` recomendation that I would become stiff necked...several biblical accounte of how God delt with stiff necked people...How God expected me to keep my promise....along with all of the other reasons it was not a life there for ok...(it took a whole weekend at the lc`s house) I came to my senses and was driven to the abortion clinic a week later by the bc...I ran away the first time....but then was brought back to the lc`s for a little more *instruction* .....though I did not want to ....my fear of dissapointing God was greater than my desire to protect the child.
So anyway...2nd time I came to my senses...bucked up...grew some back bone...I had my bc`s there for *support*...I quelled the panic and shame with sit and running scriptures through my mind so that I wouldn`t think about what was happening or how horribly wrong I felt and panic and flee
Like I said...NOW I was spiritually worthey...I was welcomed back onto the wow field...completed my app year in the corpes...was considered quite the little duolos...yep!@
My leaders were proud...dignity was restored...I am sure that God was impressed with my level of commitment.....satans plot to prevent me from a life time of service to God and the way ministry was foiled....what was the destruction of a *parasite* compaired to all of that???
we must always remember when lecturing and preaching to folks, that it's important to 'point' with your palm open, all fingers pointing away... so as not to point any fingers back at yourself...
Oldies, for someone who has gone on record as seeing abortion as the taking of a human life (I believe that is accurate, correct me if I am wrong).....why does rascal's testimony not horrify you?
Ya know, as I have stated in the past, as as a few may be aware of, I am real picky about testimony. Second and third hand stories of this or that happened to so-and-so, such happened to so many people, or even presumed first hand accounts by completely anonymous sources don't often impress me. I do respect that there can be excellent personal reasons for not telling all, such as the horror of living through the event again in front of everyone, but it doesnt help the believability.
THEREFORE, when someone is so open and detailed in their account, as Rascal has been, even to the point of answering your last question in detail, despite the tone of doubt you expressed in asking it.....I accept that testimony.
Recently, on another thread, you asked a question that looked to me very reasonable to ask, and yet a certain poster came down on you, not just calling it a "stupid question", but the stupid question that "takes the cake", pretty much stating that you were an idiot even to ask it. See my response on the "Patton" thread, currently on page two of this forum as I post.
If someone calls you an idiot...or if someone calls you a liar when you are giving testimony about what happened to you personally...it is quite a personal attack. Or were you there? Whate makes it more interesting is your apparent stand on the abortion issue, and whether or not someone agrees with you on that, it is surprising that you don't seem to see horror in what Rascal testified as to what she went through.
quote:Oldies, for someone who has gone on record as seeing abortion as the taking of a human life (I believe that is accurate, correct me if I am wrong).....why does rascal's testimony not horrify you?
I believe partial birth abortion is the taking of a human life and even borders on infanticide. I quoted from Dave Craley's editorial, and "I think" Craley's view also was twi's predominant view on it. As far as rascal's posts, nothing more to say and don't wish to comment any further.
If someone has something more to add on topic I'd be happy to respond, otherwise I think this thread has run its course.
First of all, rascal, that is a devastating testimony. I am literally heartbroken for you.
Abortion is the one guilt in my life that always seem to keep coming back at me. I seek & receive forgiveness, but it is a regret that "keeps on giving", so to speak. I'm slackjawed at the callousness of some.
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mj412
It may read better to say it was not a requirement to have an abortion to be a a believer in the way , which is how I met it to read. I have no doubt rascal or anyone was told any number of things which we chose to believe or not and that is why the grease spot forum is here.
I agree there was pressure to perform, I also know many who left to leave the corps for family issues that could not be resolved at the time they were in residence ,some went back in later when the situation did merit twi's approval once again some did not. but they were not marked and avoided for leaving the corps in the eighties anywyas it happened alot actualy.
I know of one couple that went in four different times years apart and last I knew had left again due to a sick child so I think the way had its prioritity and that was the way and most I assume knew that by the time they made the choice to go into the corps program the requirements of that program.
No I wouldnt have ever compromised my family the way I saw corps families live, but the fact some did chose to think it was what they were suppose to do is not evil and or cowardly as you say Rascal.
If it was a mistake for some as they look back well mistakes happen in life ya know and I do believe God does consider the fact most went in to try to please HIM and His Son or they went in to please the leader friends they thought they had and got disappointed .
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Raf
Oldiesman,
I can't speak for what you're feeling inside, but I can speak for your words. You're calling her a liar. Period.
Your words indicate more than "I just don't believe everything she says." You are flat-out accusing her of lying. To not see that is to not realize the power of your words.
"I was told ABC."
"I don't believe you."
You're accusing her of lying.
You have every right to do that. It's your prerogative. It's also disgusting.
I think that's a much better way to make your statement, mj. Thank you for clarifying.
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dmiller
MJ -- with all due respect, "meriting twi's approval" means nothing more to me than them lowering the gun, but keeping it loaded and ready to point again.
If they were a Godly organization, making legitimate "demands" concerning "holy behaviour" that would be in accordance with a scriptural life-style, I could agree. But they
A) were not;
B) did not; and
C) had no clue as to what "Godly behaviour" meant.
Their skewed "morality/ covered by grace" mentality got them to the position where they were able to use their authority as a huge stick, held over those underneath them.
The example I used about a lying, drunk, thief being reprimanded shows that church authority calls ME into account for MY actions, that the church had NO part of.
Contrast that with twi, who put people into difficult situations, and then held up the bible, pfal book, whatever, and demanded for THEM to get their act together, when THEY (twi) had a huge, if not major part in getting the "miscreants" into that position in the first place.
I also know of folks who left, then went back due to various circumstances, but that is a whole different game than being told to "abort the child, or abort your twi "career".
I agree that those who entered the corps program were wanting to do their "best" for both God and Jesus Christ.
Unfortunately -- twi leadership got in the way, and turned a good thing into a shambles.
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mj412
people were misled no doubt but in many circumstances in life if you can not complete the guidelines for graduation then you do not get the nut.
the pot calling the kettle black ? is that what your saying ?
lolololol hahaha I would agree and then some .
but this issue is about getting pregnate in a program where it is not going to work. folks were told or conseled to get an abortion because many thought as the way taught that a pregnancy is part of the womans own personal issue until the child takes a breath.
this was not a new flash of intimidation the way has always taught that you should not get pregnate while in res and that abortion is an option for an unwanted pregnancy.
if someone thinks it is wrong then they should not get pregnate or not comply with a program that wholly endorses what the way taught as truth or be willing to take the chance and get pregnate and leave the program for your own personal integrity and choices in life.
many did .
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dmiller
OK -- whatever. I never was corps, I opted for University of Life instead, and we had no guidelines about "adding" to our families while in the program.
The objective of U OF L was to learn the "Excellence Of The Way Corps Teaching" in our own homes, and put no stipulations on anything except learning the Word.
I assumed (mistakenly, I guess) that such stipulations were not placed on corps. Was there a form you had to sign saying you would remain "childless" while in residence?? If there was -- then what was leadership doing trying to get you to break that commitment, other than satisfying their own lusts?
That alone would make them more guilty than I previously suspected. Again -- they were not a Godly organization, and reguardless what kind of program they were offering, they had no right to say what God did, or did not expect, especially if they were involved in the "breaking of a covenant" as prolifically as is evidenced here.
No -- I am not the pot calling the kettle black. Just calling it as I see it. Even though "a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut", this one is out there in the wide open spaces, for all to see.
The "guilt" is NOT one-sided, though some here refuse to acknowledge that.
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wyteduv58
I too wonder why TWI would kick OM out, I mean he is likeminded with them.
:o-->
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dmiller
Wyte -- Maybe Oldies will tell us, though I doubt it.
Actually -- I don't care.
:)-->
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mj412
I do not know the rules and regs of the corps, I know it was a big deal to "sponor" those who went in and that met they had to write and do certain things that those willing to give them money thought they should do and compliance was of course included.
It was "the word" remember? I always thought those going in the corps where intending on becoming full time ministers of the gospel and to "move the word" in other words get people born again and make twi a place they would honor and yes pledge their commintments to .
I also assumed those going into the corps realized just where twi was coming from on what was important to their life and allegence to leaders and twi was for sure a top notch priority.
I know it must have been difficult for many by the numbers of those I know that left and tried to to get back in find sponors and such. the folks I know that wanted to or went into the corps where rabid twi people and I still have little doubt they knew what it may take from their personal life, family life or anything . many spent a year or more sucking up to the LC before they went in and learned exactly what it was .
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rascal
Mj..WHO are you claiming that I said was cowardly??? STOP putting words in my mouth...I never called ANYBODY cowardly or intimated that ANYBODY should have made my choice or any other....damn I have no problem with abiding with the corpes program....
What I DO for the umpteenth time...have a MAJOR issue with is leadership claiming that GOD demanded this of me......Why are you turning it into something else?
Read this carefully mj....Not twi demanded this ...not leaders thought this was best...GOD demanded it...ok???? this is what I have a problem with...THEY did NOT have the right to decide that God needed me to kill this fetus.
I did leave the corpes program...wrote my letters...left the wow field to have the child...thats when the coersion began....and pressure to fullfill my commitment began...
Whether it was ordering an unwanted abortion...demanding the casting out of a disobediant child to the streets...forcing themselves sexually on women...face meltings...all was endured and complied with because we were TAUGHT that God demanded this of us...it was wrong...God needed or desired nothing of the sort.
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houseisarockin
To abuse God's people in the name of committed service for Him when He never sanctioned it and no doubt cried as He observed the abuse is incredible. Good thing for the abuser this is the grace administration.
To state your story that included an ultimatum given if you truly wanted to grow spiritually, which at times included being cut off from council from anyone else is a horrifying place to be. Only those of us who where there will every truly understand the price paid.
Does that negate the truth that some flew through their time in that ministry unscathed at all? No it does not. But it also does not give them a license to deny the ones that were not so fortunate (choice of word used to pi** off lurking eyes).
Accountability and perpetual victim mindset factor into these discussions regularly. I don't see rascal denying the first nor do I see her playing the second.
For what it's worth!
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mj412
Rascal coward was your word which you may have edited out by now.
houseisa rocking I was also M@A in a scandal so I do know and you what I see where they where coming from and thank god for it.
Do I think twi was right in what they did? for Gods sake it was a cult and I have said people where used and abused in the name of God but more importantly in the name of one another which was absolutely sick and how the thing got shot to hell in the first place. to say it was all LCM or the particular leader that you chose to think was the appple of the day is being foolish all together it was a group of mind sets that applied the means to have folk compromise what they may have felt right or wrong for them.
that group includes you and me.
if you have changed your mind on the doctrine you chose to believe no kidding many have on many of the stuff sold.
but to say you didnt believe it then and where forced or did it to please a leader or your friends or what ever makes you clearly a liar to yourself and everyone eles.
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WaywardWayfer
MJ, it's called cognitive dissonance. I said and did a lot of things I disagreed with. Yes, it was a lie, but I really thought they were right and/or that I was going to have "God's protection removed" from me if I didn't obey. I'm not saying it's right, but I'm saying it's all I knew to do and all I had the guts to do at the time. I know better now and I'm stronger now. It's not as easy as you seem to think.
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mj412
it is called many many things wayward, suffering , growing up but the fact remains that is the reason grease spot flourishes.
Easy ??? assumptions are made here and the cult mind set of unity and we all must unite without understanding because we love one another is what grease excels at.
it was not easy it is still not easy I doubt it will ever be easy .
but to grow as a person I do try to stay at least honest and not allow biterness with a self righteous attitude of victim to take root. In each case a particular can blame a particular person if they so chose I do not it was a cult and to get beyond we all need to realize a cult is built on by its people and those who complied.
we grew up it is quite simple really , not easy but simple.
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rascal
I never EVER called (edited to add I did call the leaders *cowards who hid behind God`s word*) one a coward ...coward was NOT *my word* mj... that is a lie...nor did I EVER intimate that ANYONE in the corpes were..... (oldies said I did but that was a complete lie and misrepresentaion of what I posted) please... reread the thread ...I don`t think you have read or understand my point at all....the ONLY editing that *I* have done is to add on to my existing post....but I suppose you will label THAT as a lie as well?
Consider What else might you have mis read or misrepresented that I have written.....not that I expect you to have the integrety or courage to apologise......anymore than oldies.
Let me say again...I have the deepest respect for those who cared enough about God to put their lives on the line....I understand the desire to love and serve God to the point that you put your whole life aside....THAT isn`t cowardly....it takes a lot of guts
Whether I made the right choice and or wrong or whether other peoples choices who were in the same position ...whether they were right or wrong....the right of twi to enforce their rules.....none of these is at issue.
It was the fact that they enforced those rules with the teaching that God required this ..GOD didn`t ask...REQUIRED....compliance(wish I could highlight this)
It wasn`t a choice of leaving because I made a mistake and could no longer follow the rules...it was you are breaking your vow to God and HE will be ....ed...and you will suffer horrendous consequences.
It was easy to decline to participate in the way corpes or wow program...however..when I was brought back and badgered about how not only was I lying to twi...but God ...and how he delt with vow breakers.....thats when all of those other pressures and teachings were brought into play...
Dissapoint twi...live in shame for unfinished commitments were things that I could handle...and was going too ..Going against God himself ...after all I felt he had done was
What RIGHT did THEY have to say to us *you do these things because God requires it*??
All of these things you accuse me of mj...does not change one whit twi`s teaching about fetus...I still don`t understand how my current personal beliefs...my remorse.. or my personal story even comes into play.....
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oldiesman
Rascal
And all this time, what I thought you were complaining about, was being bullied and coerced into getting an abortion when you really didn't want to. So you had the child after all?Link to comment
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rascal
Nope ... I was found and *invited* to spend some time with the lc`s closing some matters...which I did..when it was pointed out that if I had the child I would be a vow breaker...a liar that God would be mad....annanias and saphira were brought up a lot...that if I disobeyed leaderships` recomendation that I would become stiff necked...several biblical accounte of how God delt with stiff necked people...How God expected me to keep my promise....along with all of the other reasons it was not a life there for ok...(it took a whole weekend at the lc`s house) I came to my senses and was driven to the abortion clinic a week later by the bc...I ran away the first time....but then was brought back to the lc`s for a little more *instruction* .....though I did not want to ....my fear of dissapointing God was greater than my desire to protect the child.
So anyway...2nd time I came to my senses...bucked up...grew some back bone...I had my bc`s there for *support*...I quelled the panic and shame with sit and running scriptures through my mind so that I wouldn`t think about what was happening or how horribly wrong I felt and panic and flee
Like I said...NOW I was spiritually worthey...I was welcomed back onto the wow field...completed my app year in the corpes...was considered quite the little duolos...yep!@
My leaders were proud...dignity was restored...I am sure that God was impressed with my level of commitment.....satans plot to prevent me from a life time of service to God and the way ministry was foiled....what was the destruction of a *parasite* compaired to all of that???
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Tom Strange
we must always remember when lecturing and preaching to folks, that it's important to 'point' with your palm open, all fingers pointing away... so as not to point any fingers back at yourself...
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Lifted Up
Oldies, for someone who has gone on record as seeing abortion as the taking of a human life (I believe that is accurate, correct me if I am wrong).....why does rascal's testimony not horrify you?
Ya know, as I have stated in the past, as as a few may be aware of, I am real picky about testimony. Second and third hand stories of this or that happened to so-and-so, such happened to so many people, or even presumed first hand accounts by completely anonymous sources don't often impress me. I do respect that there can be excellent personal reasons for not telling all, such as the horror of living through the event again in front of everyone, but it doesnt help the believability.
THEREFORE, when someone is so open and detailed in their account, as Rascal has been, even to the point of answering your last question in detail, despite the tone of doubt you expressed in asking it.....I accept that testimony.
Recently, on another thread, you asked a question that looked to me very reasonable to ask, and yet a certain poster came down on you, not just calling it a "stupid question", but the stupid question that "takes the cake", pretty much stating that you were an idiot even to ask it. See my response on the "Patton" thread, currently on page two of this forum as I post.
If someone calls you an idiot...or if someone calls you a liar when you are giving testimony about what happened to you personally...it is quite a personal attack. Or were you there? Whate makes it more interesting is your apparent stand on the abortion issue, and whether or not someone agrees with you on that, it is surprising that you don't seem to see horror in what Rascal testified as to what she went through.
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oldiesman
Lifted Up
I believe partial birth abortion is the taking of a human life and even borders on infanticide. I quoted from Dave Craley's editorial, and "I think" Craley's view also was twi's predominant view on it. As far as rascal's posts, nothing more to say and don't wish to comment any further.If someone has something more to add on topic I'd be happy to respond, otherwise I think this thread has run its course.
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TheEvan
First of all, rascal, that is a devastating testimony. I am literally heartbroken for you.
Abortion is the one guilt in my life that always seem to keep coming back at me. I seek & receive forgiveness, but it is a regret that "keeps on giving", so to speak. I'm slackjawed at the callousness of some.
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Steve!
TheEvan - I agree with your sentiment.
But neither you or I should be posting on this thread any more - om has Declared That This Thread Has Run Its Course.
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oldiesman
Isn't it interesting that threads with the most arguing, namecalling and fighting usually get the most viewings?
Folks love it.
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Tom Strange
...it's the "drive by" thing!
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