Mj ...I think that you are dead wrong when you try to extrapolate on whether or not I can face my responsibility....I DO unequivicably accept my responsibility... believe me it came crashing down on me in blinding technicolor all to clearly years later......
What *I* hold twi accountable for is forcing me into an untenable position....do this and love God or don`t and die spiritually.
God didn`t demand I destroy that fetus...I absolutely did not want to destroy that fetus...fetus is destroyed because those that I trusted insisted that God almighty creater of the heavens and the universe REQUIRED this of me.
What I WANTED didn`t come into play because that was just 5 sences nonsense that couldn`t be trusted.
Unfortunatly it really was my concious and common sense screaming at the top of it`s might to get my attention...but good little wafer that I was ...I ran scripture through my brain to shut it out as well as the very voice of God...so that I could endure what it was God/twi required of me.
It has nothing to DO with my acceptance of responsibility...and EVERYTHING about manipulating scripture to farce someone to do that which is abhorrant to them.
The responsibility (your word not mine) would be in making a decision for your life.
your choice was to listen to what people you trusted said you should do that is the resposibility of each individual.
responsible choices are difficult to make at many stages in life and we are often blind sided by influences we trust and maybe should not have Rascal.
If you disagreed with the scripture they referenced then you could have clearly said so and made a different choice and faced different consequences .
If in time passed you have changed your ideals of what reference is right or wrong for your life it does not make twi any more wrong. You changed your mind about what you believed and feel angry you may have once believed wrongly and suffered for it.
it happens in life about many many things it is growing up getting older becoming wiser and that is what forgivness is all about.
As far as I know twi has never changed their teaching about breath life.
The fact they teach it as scripture or even as an easy avenue to make the choice for having an abortion does not take away the fact it is a medical procedure that each and every individual must make as a patient and no one else can force or sign them up for it.
Blame twi all you want it isnt hurting anyone at all mostly not them, But I do pray to God you stop blaming your own self, because your rage and pain clearly sounds as if it hurts you still.
Im not the one nor are you to keep pace with all of the evil in this world , mistakes are made everyday and folks often do 180's on subjects when given additional information that is just life.
I happen to have mellowed as I have aged but the bible has not changed in its words and the insight given on these types of matters as with many deeply personal choices truly has to be a piece filled in only by the merciful Father of us all.
Blame twi all you want it isnt hurting anyone at all mostly not them, But I do pray to God you stop blaming your own self, because your rage and pain clearly sounds as if it hurts you still.
I don't think she is doing it for me, but Rascal I think knows how big I am on testimony. I having an issue with her about testimony regarding a different subject. However, in this case, Rascal has been giving oodles of testimony about what happened to her.
Pain? Still hurting? What do you expect? But you make it sound like she is controlled or obsessed by the pain and blame. Rascal testified as to what happened to her and why, accepting both her own responsibility and telling of those in TWI who made it the "spiritual thing to do".
Okay, I don't mean to get on you too much. I guess someone giving such testimony as Rascal gives COULD be buried in blame and guilt, even though I don't see any real indication of it. I think I know enough about her to feel quite safe that she has the pain well under control. Make that very well. Better than I do, I think, in some different matters.
No, we are not best friends and lifelong buddies. But those of use who have been around for a while know her a lot better than we know most, because she has been so open and not anonymous. I AM NOT KNOCKING ANONYMOUS POSTING, for which there can be very good reasons. It is just much easier to believe and trust someone you know as a person and not just as an anonymous poster.
Oh, and if the only reason I had to post here was to "defend" Rascal, I could have saved my breath. Another thing about us both being sort of "old timers" around here (sorry for the terminology, Rascal) is that I know she doesn't need ME to speak for her. And I know you are not criticizing her personally. But your response seems to dilute her testimony, which I have found very valuable for reasons I gave above.
Aww thanks lifted, You explain things better than I do....your attempt to balance fairly....is as always apreciated.
Mj you don`t have a CLUE about how I feel ...you are reading much into my posts that is not there.....Let me set you straight.
My rage is with a group who used scripture to bully ...a group who insisted that God required me and others to murder an unborn child.
My rage is with a group who claimed that they spoke for God ...who told me the ONLY choices were love God and destroy the fetus or serve satan and eventually die anyway.
What they taught was NOT the *bibles words or insight* Gawd..........
It blows my mind that you would classify coerced abortion as such and use that as a reason to say that it was ok.,....and that I need to get over it....that you are even defending such a group by pointing your finger at me.....just blows my mind...yeah I am culpable...no doubt about it....I live with it...this isn`t something that can ever be *fixed* or righted....or will go away...my guilt is permanent ..I can`t go back and make that baby *live* again. I can only attempt to be a better person for the rest of my life....but this is about what THEY taught and did in GOD`S name and it was HEINOUS!
thanks for your support, and your words of wisdom!
Raf said:
quote:Prove it.
Ha! I found the quote. It didn't come straight from TWI, but a TWI believer who started his own magazine.
In 1984/85 there was a magazine called "Free Spirit -- New Light For American Culture" -- (ISSN 0740 2333) published quarterly by season by Free Spirit Publishers, David C. Craley, publisher and editor. As I recall, this was a magazine that contained articles about different topics, all applying God's Word to cultural issues. Articles on business, health, education, art, photography, music, literature...etc.., all with the word-in-culture theme.
So I can't say it came from TWI and was wrong there. On the other side of the coin, David Craley was an established TWI believer in that time period, and judging from all the articles in that magazine, all written by established TWI believers such as Elena Whiteside, Cathy Crawley, Carolyn M. Rawlins, M.D., Alison Freeland, Sue Pierce, Ted Ferrell, Grace Bliss, Sue Pierce, Dennis McGee, Ellie Wilson, etc.., and judging from twi's much desired one-mind mindset, one may assume that this editorial could have been TWI's teaching on the subject or at least written with their blessing. But I guess it's ultimately up to the reader to decide for themselves.
I think Craley's editorial is sound and reasonable, and gives a slightly different viewpoint than rascal's portrayal of the satan-serving murder-promoting spittle-spewing bad-breath-in-your-face fire-breathing twi bully, forcing you to get an abortion or else mandate.
Quoted below is the editorial, with the paragraph I spoke about previously in bold:
quote:Editorial Commentary
Abortion -- Is It Murder?
Few statements could be more emotionally charged, especially in these days of the ERA movement, pro-life, right-to-life, anti-abortion, pro-abortion, and public discussions of Church vs. State, than the statement that "abortion is murder."
Some agree, some disagree. The subjects of sex, marriage, birth control, abortion, divorce, etc., etc., are interesting to read about and discuss. Yet the Biblical ethics involved have been so muddied that most people will never have accurate answers. Unless people go to the Word of God for understanding, they will have their diverse opinions and accept whatever ideas society decides to hand them.
For those of us who believe that the Word of God is the will of God, we must ask, "What does the Bible say on the subject?"
Genesis 2:7 states: "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." It was then, at the moment that God put in man "the breath of life," that man became "a living soul," an alive human being. When "the breath of life" ceases, man is a dead soul, a dead person. God's Word does not say that man becomes a living soul when he is formed, but when he takes his first breath.
The potential to life, the potential for a fetus to become "a living soul," must be separated from life itself. The time of conception and the development of the fetus in the womb is simply the potential toward human life, according to the Word of God. The "breath of life" is the first breath after the baby is born.
From the Biblical point of view it is logical to conclude that an abortion should not be performed so late that there is the possibility that the fetus could live outside the womb. From this standpoint, the pregnancy should be continued to term.
Another section of scripture adds more light on the subject. Exodus 21:12 states that "He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death." The Biblical standard for murder is the punishment of death. Then in Exodus 21:22 we read: "If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine." Logically, if the punishment for murder is death and "abortion is murder," then the punishment for causing a woman to miscarry should be death. But, Biblically, it isn't. The punishment is a fine. The Bible calls the woman's fetus "her fruit." A fine in the Old Testament was almost exclusively punishment for stealing. Causing a woman to have a miscarriage was like stealing her blessing.
The Bible calls children a blessing: "Lo, children are an heritage of the Lord: and the fruit of the womb is his reward . . . Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them" (Psalms 127:3 and 5). Sometimes because of special circumstances this is not the case. Personal decisions must be made. Moreover, our sexually permissive society results in the question of abortion being a common dilemma.
Because the Word of God speaks clearly on the subject of abortion, one cannot suggest that abortions should be advocated, nor can the proliferation of abortion clinics be considered anything but a shameful sign of the times. The question of abortion cannot be taken lightly because the ramifications to the individuals and family involved may be hurtful. Yet in our nation, first, foremost, constitutionally, the individual's rights must always be taken into consideration. Freedom of choice is written into the law of our land. Every woman has the right to decide to separate intercourse from reproduction.
No one can legislate morals or regulate the morality of individuals. Morality must be taught in the family unit, demonstrated to the children by the parents. Much of what is being promulgated regarding morals is simply the pretense and hypocrisy of those to whom it does not apply. A proposed constitutional amendment banning abortion, declaring that a fetus is a legal person and making any woman who had an abortion a murderer, is un-Christian, unethical, un-American and immoral.
Believers must strive to restore lost values. God's Word reveals truth -- new light for American culture -- for those who want to know.
David C. Craley
Free Spirit -- New Light For American Culture
Winter 1984
[Added below: Much gratitude to Jeff Stanley, San Antonio, TX, and to Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille's "By The Way" columns published in the St. Mary's (OH) Evening Leader for significant contributions to this editorial.]
I'd still like to hear what their take on it is, just so folks can know definitively. I think partial birth abortion borders on infanticide, so it might be worthwhile. Perhaps an innie could send them the article and ask what their take is on the paragraph about partial birth? I'll be happy to email the article to anyone in PDF format if anyone wants it.
We should contact David Craley and find out how leadership reacted to his article. It strikes me that the firsthand testimony of people who were ordered to get abortions takes precedence over the musings of an "established TWI believer" who may have been guilty of (gasp) independent thinking.
Doing some checking. Craley was apparently a "longtime" editor of The Way Magazine (which I think puts him a bit higher on the "official" scale than "established TWI believer").
Oh, and if the only reason I had to post here was to "defend" Rascal, I could have saved my breath. Another thing about us both being sort of "old timers" around here (sorry for the terminology, Rascal) is that I know she doesn't need ME to speak for her.
No disrespect to LiftedUp intended, but I like to look at it this way, instead. Rascal is perfectly capable of painting an entire house by herself, so she certainly doesn't NEED my help. Sometimes, though, it makes a job a helluva lot easier when your friends care enough to grab a brush anyway. ;)-->
I've never even met the woman, but I consider her a very dear friend solely on what we've talked about online. Perceptions can be deceiving, of course, but since perceptions are what we create in our own minds, most of the blame for any inaccuracy in them lies on US instead of the other person. I can see how some people might read what Rascal writes on this subject and form the perception that she's being hysterical or irrational. Personally, I don't believe that perception for a second. From my personal viewpoint, Rascal's got more guts than a chitlin-packing plant. Any emphatic language she uses stems more from a steely-eyed determination not to let the same bastards browbeat another woman into placing anything else before a child ever again. She has consistently and unflinchingly owned her responsibility in the matter, despite the personal sorrow involved in talking about it, solely so that no one else is in the least bit deluded into thinking TWI was some sort of mildly-strict denomination instead of a dictatorial cult. She wasn't counseled by suggestion and advice, she was ordered, period. Oh, sure, she had a "choice"--do what they said, or throw away her whole life at that point. Some choice! How anyone can dare to belittle her for what she chose galls me to the core.
Now it is possible that my perception of her is not 100% accurate either, I'm aware of that. But I do know that I trust my perception of her more than I trust my perceptions of 90% of the people on this site. So much so, in fact, that I do not hesitate for a nanosecond to stand up for her. She's got courage, determination, compassion, and a stainless-steel spine.
She does not deny her pain & sorrow, but she isn't ruled by it, either.
quote:I think Craley's editorial is sound and reasonable, and gives a slightly different viewpoint than rascal's portrayal of the satan-serving murder-promoting spittle-spewing bad-breath-in-your-face fire-breathing twi bully, forcing you to get an abortion or else mandate.
Yeah, it gives a different viewpoint OM. But like you said, "it wasn't from TWI".
You're such an antagonistic jerk sometimes. Do you sit there in front of your computer thinking of ways to discredit and attack the veracity of posters? That's sure what it seems like.
What you posted does not change history. What happened to Rascal happened to many. Abortion was used as birth control in TWI. Whether you like it or agree with it or not. There's nothing you can say or do to change that.
quote:You're such an antagonistic jerk sometimes. Do you sit there in front of your computer thinking of ways to discredit and attack the veracity of posters? That's sure what it seems like.
Let's try to refrain from namecalling, shall we?
Tom, simply put, I don't swallow whole some things that sound incredibly biased like some of rascal's posts, and sometimes, in those cases, attempt to present an opposing opinion. rascal's words and opinions are gospel now? Lighten up, ok?
And if you've been observant, I'm not the only one on this thread that takes the viewpoint that abortion in twi was a choice of the woman who consented to it, no matter what any leader said or suggested. I stand by that viewpoint, because I think it's factual and true.
I had more than one dear friend who had twi sponsored abortions -- and they did it only because they thought they were doing it to be better able to serve the Lord.
The devil's cruel bullying does not need to be in loud yelling and spittle-laden curses. The hateful curses can be delivered in quiet, sincere, appealing tones as well.
Early-on twi counseling was delivered with deep concern and affection, though just as hurtful and wrong as the later-on yelling and screaming stuff.
Oldiesman, I think
1. you are counting your opinion as the authority of truth and fact, although the Bible cautions us all that we can only know in part.
2. you are not considering into your equation the deception and lies which were used to coerce twi people into abortions or other wrongdoing.
From what I saw and experienced people were deceived into thinking that lies were the truth, regarding the subject of this current discussion as well as other topics.
IMHO abandoning your family and your personal life in the world were serious wrongdoings which twi people were conned into as well.
quote:From what I saw and experienced people were deceived into thinking that lies were the truth, regarding the subject of this current discussion as well as other topics.
Can you be more specific? What deception and lies involving abortion are you referring to?
quote:I had more than one dear friend who had twi sponsored abortions -- and they did it only because they thought they were doing it to be better able to serve the Lord.
Individual circumstances vary, but did it ever occur to you that maybe TWI sponsored the abortions because they wanted to offer an option to the woman involved? Give the woman a choice? Why does their (twi's) motive always have to be an evil one?
You're right OM, sorry for the name calling... but I won't back off of the inference that you sit in front of your computer thinking of ways...
quote:Tom, simply put, I don't swallow whole some things that sound incredibly biased like some of rascal's posts, and sometimes, in those cases, attempt to present an opposing opinion. rascal's words and opinions are gospel now? Lighten up, ok?
Do you think that someone having an abortion was "broadcast for all to hear"??? c'mon man... just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen... all of this was going on around you if you had your eyes open... did you shut yours on purpose? did you look the other way so as not to see? did you just believe what your friend (DEW) told you in response to your questions?
Do you really think that anyone other than the folks involved would know about the abortions? (with the exception of close friends that they needed to talk to?)... this happened a lot... there was a lot of sex going on between singles and a lot of folks were getting pregnant...
I had never heard of it with married folks, why would I? It was a private thing... but it sure fits with the rest of it...
quote:Individual circumstances vary, but did it ever occur to you that maybe TWI sponsored the abortions because they wanted to offer an option to the woman involved? Give the woman a choice? Why does their (twi's) motive always have to be an evil one?
I'm sure that happened as well OM. BUT I assure you. There were many instances similar to Rascal's, where the woman didn't want that choice... yet were coerced into it.
Why can't you see that? I don't 'know' Rascal personally. But I know women who went through exactly the same thing she did. Why can't you accept that? You can offer alternative views without attacking the veracity of the poster.
quote:I'm sure that happened as well OM. BUT I assure you. There were many instances similar to Rascal's, where the woman didn't want that choice... yet were coerced into it.
Why can't you see that? I don't 'know' Rascal personally. But I know women who went through exactly the same thing she did. Why can't you accept that? You can offer alternative views without attacking the veracity of the poster.
Tom, I did offer the alternative view. So did mj412. If a single woman got pregnant and wanted to enter the single way corps program, she had two choices, get an abortion and enter the program, or not enter the corps program. It was not available for single women to go into the single way corps program having a baby with them. Women in that category had to make choices for themselves. It was a tough choice, given their circumstances, no question; but I suppose that's what happens when one gets pregnant out of wedlock. Bad, sad and unforeseen things happen. Maybe they thought that if a whole bunch of single women brought their babies with them, that wouldn't be good for the program or the volunteers themselves; that their priorities were different. So they didn't allow it, and those were the choices.
OM - I know three women who had abortions our FIRST year in-rez, and two who had them the last year - oh, and one on her interim. Our last year, I know of a woman in our "younger" Corps who got pregnant during her first year, left the Corps and had her baby. I don't know what became of either of them.
I'm almost certain that most of the abortions that were done while I was in-rez were all ordered and paid for by TWI. The only exception I know of was when the woman paid for it herself. The Corps Coor. knew it and she was driven to a women's clinic in another city by a fellow Corps member.
How do I know? Well, it wasn't announced, that's for sure. The women TOLD me. They were friends, sisters, looking for a shoulder to cry on or someone to validate what they'd done was the right thing to do. I don't recall what I said to most of them, but I know that, at the time, I probably told them they'd be just fine because they'd done the right thing and stayed in the Corps.
Of course, I'd take back every word of it now - hindsight is always 20/20.
Catcup, Alfakat, or anyone else who was there probably knew about some of these situations and others that I may not know about. But the incidents I heard about weren't a case of rumor or supposition - they were first hand.
Ya know oldies, I truly wish it were all a big lie...I wish it with all of my heart...I would give anything if it were all just a really bad dream......it brings me no pleasure to keep defending myself to you and others who want to excuse twi`s unpardonable evil........
Oh and by the way...how do the REST of you guys feel about your abs going to pay for womens abortions in twi? Ain`t THAT a kick in the gut when you were living on mac n cheese?
Oldies, you are taking a horrible wrong perpetrated and and trying to make it appear ok...even going so far as calling it *charitable*....YOU are defending evil...attempting to change the scenario so that twi appears blameless....YOU are whitewashing and covering for evil and belittling the consequences and those who suffered....YOU are attempting to cover for evil wrought... What kind of person are you? Never mind...it`s just a retorical question...
Folks who came to my defense...thankyou, I cannot tell you how much I apreciated your support right then...just when I get completely discouraged with perception here...or my inability to communicate ...you come to my rescue with clarification and support ...I humbly thank you.
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rascal
Mj ...I think that you are dead wrong when you try to extrapolate on whether or not I can face my responsibility....I DO unequivicably accept my responsibility... believe me it came crashing down on me in blinding technicolor all to clearly years later......
What *I* hold twi accountable for is forcing me into an untenable position....do this and love God or don`t and die spiritually.
God didn`t demand I destroy that fetus...I absolutely did not want to destroy that fetus...fetus is destroyed because those that I trusted insisted that God almighty creater of the heavens and the universe REQUIRED this of me.
What I WANTED didn`t come into play because that was just 5 sences nonsense that couldn`t be trusted.
Unfortunatly it really was my concious and common sense screaming at the top of it`s might to get my attention...but good little wafer that I was ...I ran scripture through my brain to shut it out as well as the very voice of God...so that I could endure what it was God/twi required of me.
It has nothing to DO with my acceptance of responsibility...and EVERYTHING about manipulating scripture to farce someone to do that which is abhorrant to them.
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mj412
The responsibility (your word not mine) would be in making a decision for your life.
your choice was to listen to what people you trusted said you should do that is the resposibility of each individual.
responsible choices are difficult to make at many stages in life and we are often blind sided by influences we trust and maybe should not have Rascal.
If you disagreed with the scripture they referenced then you could have clearly said so and made a different choice and faced different consequences .
If in time passed you have changed your ideals of what reference is right or wrong for your life it does not make twi any more wrong. You changed your mind about what you believed and feel angry you may have once believed wrongly and suffered for it.
it happens in life about many many things it is growing up getting older becoming wiser and that is what forgivness is all about.
As far as I know twi has never changed their teaching about breath life.
The fact they teach it as scripture or even as an easy avenue to make the choice for having an abortion does not take away the fact it is a medical procedure that each and every individual must make as a patient and no one else can force or sign them up for it.
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mj412
One more thing Rascal
Blame twi all you want it isnt hurting anyone at all mostly not them, But I do pray to God you stop blaming your own self, because your rage and pain clearly sounds as if it hurts you still.
Im not the one nor are you to keep pace with all of the evil in this world , mistakes are made everyday and folks often do 180's on subjects when given additional information that is just life.
I happen to have mellowed as I have aged but the bible has not changed in its words and the insight given on these types of matters as with many deeply personal choices truly has to be a piece filled in only by the merciful Father of us all.
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Lifted Up
I don't think she is doing it for me, but Rascal I think knows how big I am on testimony. I having an issue with her about testimony regarding a different subject. However, in this case, Rascal has been giving oodles of testimony about what happened to her.
Pain? Still hurting? What do you expect? But you make it sound like she is controlled or obsessed by the pain and blame. Rascal testified as to what happened to her and why, accepting both her own responsibility and telling of those in TWI who made it the "spiritual thing to do".
Okay, I don't mean to get on you too much. I guess someone giving such testimony as Rascal gives COULD be buried in blame and guilt, even though I don't see any real indication of it. I think I know enough about her to feel quite safe that she has the pain well under control. Make that very well. Better than I do, I think, in some different matters.
No, we are not best friends and lifelong buddies. But those of use who have been around for a while know her a lot better than we know most, because she has been so open and not anonymous. I AM NOT KNOCKING ANONYMOUS POSTING, for which there can be very good reasons. It is just much easier to believe and trust someone you know as a person and not just as an anonymous poster.
Oh, and if the only reason I had to post here was to "defend" Rascal, I could have saved my breath. Another thing about us both being sort of "old timers" around here (sorry for the terminology, Rascal) is that I know she doesn't need ME to speak for her. And I know you are not criticizing her personally. But your response seems to dilute her testimony, which I have found very valuable for reasons I gave above.
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rascal
Aww thanks lifted, You explain things better than I do....your attempt to balance fairly....is as always apreciated.
Mj you don`t have a CLUE about how I feel ...you are reading much into my posts that is not there.....Let me set you straight.
My rage is with a group who used scripture to bully ...a group who insisted that God required me and others to murder an unborn child.
My rage is with a group who claimed that they spoke for God ...who told me the ONLY choices were love God and destroy the fetus or serve satan and eventually die anyway.
What they taught was NOT the *bibles words or insight* Gawd..........
It blows my mind that you would classify coerced abortion as such and use that as a reason to say that it was ok.,....and that I need to get over it....that you are even defending such a group by pointing your finger at me.....just blows my mind...yeah I am culpable...no doubt about it....I live with it...this isn`t something that can ever be *fixed* or righted....or will go away...my guilt is permanent ..I can`t go back and make that baby *live* again. I can only attempt to be a better person for the rest of my life....but this is about what THEY taught and did in GOD`S name and it was HEINOUS!
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oldiesman
mj412,
thanks for your support, and your words of wisdom!
Raf said:
Ha! I found the quote. It didn't come straight from TWI, but a TWI believer who started his own magazine.In 1984/85 there was a magazine called "Free Spirit -- New Light For American Culture" -- (ISSN 0740 2333) published quarterly by season by Free Spirit Publishers, David C. Craley, publisher and editor. As I recall, this was a magazine that contained articles about different topics, all applying God's Word to cultural issues. Articles on business, health, education, art, photography, music, literature...etc.., all with the word-in-culture theme.
So I can't say it came from TWI and was wrong there. On the other side of the coin, David Craley was an established TWI believer in that time period, and judging from all the articles in that magazine, all written by established TWI believers such as Elena Whiteside, Cathy Crawley, Carolyn M. Rawlins, M.D., Alison Freeland, Sue Pierce, Ted Ferrell, Grace Bliss, Sue Pierce, Dennis McGee, Ellie Wilson, etc.., and judging from twi's much desired one-mind mindset, one may assume that this editorial could have been TWI's teaching on the subject or at least written with their blessing. But I guess it's ultimately up to the reader to decide for themselves.
I think Craley's editorial is sound and reasonable, and gives a slightly different viewpoint than rascal's portrayal of the satan-serving murder-promoting spittle-spewing bad-breath-in-your-face fire-breathing twi bully, forcing you to get an abortion or else mandate.
Quoted below is the editorial, with the paragraph I spoke about previously in bold:
David C. CraleyFree Spirit -- New Light For American Culture
Winter 1984
[Added below: Much gratitude to Jeff Stanley, San Antonio, TX, and to Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille's "By The Way" columns published in the St. Mary's (OH) Evening Leader for significant contributions to this editorial.]
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Raf
All I needed to know.
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oldiesman
I'd still like to hear what their take on it is, just so folks can know definitively. I think partial birth abortion borders on infanticide, so it might be worthwhile. Perhaps an innie could send them the article and ask what their take is on the paragraph about partial birth? I'll be happy to email the article to anyone in PDF format if anyone wants it.
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Raf
We should contact David Craley and find out how leadership reacted to his article. It strikes me that the firsthand testimony of people who were ordered to get abortions takes precedence over the musings of an "established TWI believer" who may have been guilty of (gasp) independent thinking.
Any way of getting a hold of him?
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Raf
Doing some checking. Craley was apparently a "longtime" editor of The Way Magazine (which I think puts him a bit higher on the "official" scale than "established TWI believer").
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oldiesman
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Zixar
I've never even met the woman, but I consider her a very dear friend solely on what we've talked about online. Perceptions can be deceiving, of course, but since perceptions are what we create in our own minds, most of the blame for any inaccuracy in them lies on US instead of the other person. I can see how some people might read what Rascal writes on this subject and form the perception that she's being hysterical or irrational. Personally, I don't believe that perception for a second. From my personal viewpoint, Rascal's got more guts than a chitlin-packing plant. Any emphatic language she uses stems more from a steely-eyed determination not to let the same bastards browbeat another woman into placing anything else before a child ever again. She has consistently and unflinchingly owned her responsibility in the matter, despite the personal sorrow involved in talking about it, solely so that no one else is in the least bit deluded into thinking TWI was some sort of mildly-strict denomination instead of a dictatorial cult. She wasn't counseled by suggestion and advice, she was ordered, period. Oh, sure, she had a "choice"--do what they said, or throw away her whole life at that point. Some choice! How anyone can dare to belittle her for what she chose galls me to the core.
Now it is possible that my perception of her is not 100% accurate either, I'm aware of that. But I do know that I trust my perception of her more than I trust my perceptions of 90% of the people on this site. So much so, in fact, that I do not hesitate for a nanosecond to stand up for her. She's got courage, determination, compassion, and a stainless-steel spine.
She does not deny her pain & sorrow, but she isn't ruled by it, either.
A lot of us could learn from her example.
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Tom Strange
OM said:
Yeah, it gives a different viewpoint OM. But like you said, "it wasn't from TWI".You're such an antagonistic jerk sometimes. Do you sit there in front of your computer thinking of ways to discredit and attack the veracity of posters? That's sure what it seems like.
What you posted does not change history. What happened to Rascal happened to many. Abortion was used as birth control in TWI. Whether you like it or agree with it or not. There's nothing you can say or do to change that.
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oldiesman
Tom
Let's try to refrain from namecalling, shall we?Tom, simply put, I don't swallow whole some things that sound incredibly biased like some of rascal's posts, and sometimes, in those cases, attempt to present an opposing opinion. rascal's words and opinions are gospel now? Lighten up, ok?
And if you've been observant, I'm not the only one on this thread that takes the viewpoint that abortion in twi was a choice of the woman who consented to it, no matter what any leader said or suggested. I stand by that viewpoint, because I think it's factual and true.
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Kit Sober
Raf, thanks for posting those things. It filled in the gaps in logical thought. Sincerely,
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Kit Sober
I had more than one dear friend who had twi sponsored abortions -- and they did it only because they thought they were doing it to be better able to serve the Lord.
The devil's cruel bullying does not need to be in loud yelling and spittle-laden curses. The hateful curses can be delivered in quiet, sincere, appealing tones as well.
Early-on twi counseling was delivered with deep concern and affection, though just as hurtful and wrong as the later-on yelling and screaming stuff.
Oldiesman, I think
1. you are counting your opinion as the authority of truth and fact, although the Bible cautions us all that we can only know in part.
2. you are not considering into your equation the deception and lies which were used to coerce twi people into abortions or other wrongdoing.
From what I saw and experienced people were deceived into thinking that lies were the truth, regarding the subject of this current discussion as well as other topics.
IMHO abandoning your family and your personal life in the world were serious wrongdoings which twi people were conned into as well.
Sincerely,
Kit Sober
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oldiesman
Kit Sober
Can you be more specific? What deception and lies involving abortion are you referring to?
Individual circumstances vary, but did it ever occur to you that maybe TWI sponsored the abortions because they wanted to offer an option to the woman involved? Give the woman a choice? Why does their (twi's) motive always have to be an evil one?Link to comment
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Tom Strange
You're right OM, sorry for the name calling... but I won't back off of the inference that you sit in front of your computer thinking of ways...
Do you think that someone having an abortion was "broadcast for all to hear"??? c'mon man... just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen... all of this was going on around you if you had your eyes open... did you shut yours on purpose? did you look the other way so as not to see? did you just believe what your friend (DEW) told you in response to your questions?Do you really think that anyone other than the folks involved would know about the abortions? (with the exception of close friends that they needed to talk to?)... this happened a lot... there was a lot of sex going on between singles and a lot of folks were getting pregnant...
I had never heard of it with married folks, why would I? It was a private thing... but it sure fits with the rest of it...
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Tom Strange
OM said:
I'm sure that happened as well OM. BUT I assure you. There were many instances similar to Rascal's, where the woman didn't want that choice... yet were coerced into it.Why can't you see that? I don't 'know' Rascal personally. But I know women who went through exactly the same thing she did. Why can't you accept that? You can offer alternative views without attacking the veracity of the poster.
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oldiesman
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Tom Strange
Also... this method was not only used on 'single' women.
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Hope R.
OM - I know three women who had abortions our FIRST year in-rez, and two who had them the last year - oh, and one on her interim. Our last year, I know of a woman in our "younger" Corps who got pregnant during her first year, left the Corps and had her baby. I don't know what became of either of them.
I'm almost certain that most of the abortions that were done while I was in-rez were all ordered and paid for by TWI. The only exception I know of was when the woman paid for it herself. The Corps Coor. knew it and she was driven to a women's clinic in another city by a fellow Corps member.
How do I know? Well, it wasn't announced, that's for sure. The women TOLD me. They were friends, sisters, looking for a shoulder to cry on or someone to validate what they'd done was the right thing to do. I don't recall what I said to most of them, but I know that, at the time, I probably told them they'd be just fine because they'd done the right thing and stayed in the Corps.
Of course, I'd take back every word of it now - hindsight is always 20/20.
Catcup, Alfakat, or anyone else who was there probably knew about some of these situations and others that I may not know about. But the incidents I heard about weren't a case of rumor or supposition - they were first hand.
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oldiesman
And so, what is the complaint?
TWI gave these women an opportunity to stay in the Way Corps if they wanted, after screwing up. Sounds pretty charitable to me.
March 7, 1976. I will remember that day as long as I live. That's the day I got dismissed from the 6th Corps, for screwing up.
Dismissed. Good bye. So long. Don't let the door hit your butt too hard on the way out.
And so, from my viewpoint, those women were given a choice, and they were treated decently. Opinions vary.
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rascal
Ya know oldies, I truly wish it were all a big lie...I wish it with all of my heart...I would give anything if it were all just a really bad dream......it brings me no pleasure to keep defending myself to you and others who want to excuse twi`s unpardonable evil........
Oh and by the way...how do the REST of you guys feel about your abs going to pay for womens abortions in twi? Ain`t THAT a kick in the gut when you were living on mac n cheese?
Oldies, you are taking a horrible wrong perpetrated and and trying to make it appear ok...even going so far as calling it *charitable*....YOU are defending evil...attempting to change the scenario so that twi appears blameless....YOU are whitewashing and covering for evil and belittling the consequences and those who suffered....YOU are attempting to cover for evil wrought... What kind of person are you? Never mind...it`s just a retorical question...
Folks who came to my defense...thankyou, I cannot tell you how much I apreciated your support right then...just when I get completely discouraged with perception here...or my inability to communicate ...you come to my rescue with clarification and support ...I humbly thank you.
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