Most pro-choice people would tell you they believe third trimester abortions/partial birth abortions are a no-no............UNLESS the mother's health/life is at stake. Additionally most doctors will ONLY perform this proceedure if the mother's health/life is at stake. We don't need TWI to do that job and besides TWI's price tag is way too high.
quote:Honest question: where does TWI teach this? I don't recall them ever distinguishing by trimester. I recall them saying that before the baby takes its first breath, it is not a living being. But I don't recall the distinction for which you are praising them. Could you clarify or point out where this was taught?
Your question is a good one and for someone who really wants to know what twi teaches on this, it should be clarified. I thought the teaching was in one of the "By the Way" articles, but I see now it's not. I do remember a teaching (in written form) where they wrote that if the fetus can live outside the mother's womb (on its own) then it's breathing and therefore a living soul. Since that can happen in the third trimester, that would knock out partial birth.
Perhaps we can hear from someone presently in twi to verify or not verify. I'd like to know myself. What I saw was written perhaps over 20 years ago ... who knows, they may have changed that too ...
Actually, what TWI taught as far as when life begins is when the baby takes its first breath, then thats when life begins, according to the 'Gospel' of TWI. They use the example of when God gave Adam breath, and then "he became a living soul", not before.
And definitely, they clearly used the 'pro-choice', so-called 'scriptural' position in a very 'cover-your-a**' manner.
Oldies ...I beg to differ Twi taught us women whom were pregnant at an *incovenient* time.... that abortion right and was necessary up untill to the first breath after birth WAS acceptable....none of this third trimester junk.
The TRICK was ...not letting it get that first breath...thus partial birth was acceptable and noble if it was done in order so mom could finish her spiritual *duties*.
I know a couple of women who were *counceled* that their abortion after 6 months was still ok ...just as long as the baby wasn`t allowed to take that first breath.
I know that we were taught that the fetus ..untill it took it`s first breath ...no matter how old even at 9 months....that it was still considered a parasite because it was dependant upon it`s mother/host.
The fetus wasn`t alive till first breath because oxygen carried the life into the blood...well D`uh .... the fetus has oxygen in it`s blood BEFORE birth as well ...it just comes through the mother...
Actually, what TWI taught as far as when life begins is when the baby takes its first breath, then thats when life begins, according to the 'Gospel' of TWI. They use the example of when God gave Adam breath, and then "he became a living soul", not before.
Garth that is what I was taught as well.
quote:Posted by rascal:
The fetus wasn`t alive till first breath because oxygen carried the life into the blood...well D`uh .... the fetus has oxygen in it`s blood BEFORE birth as well ...it just comes through the mother...
rascal I bought the first breath thing even though I had considered what you just posted. I allowed myself to be convinced it still meant the baby's breath independent of the mother's oxygen supplied. After all who was I to beg to differ with the two MOG. Gee whiz!
Satan has fairly well suceeded in dividing the church on a mute point in the Bible. The "pro-life" people do very little for children who are already born and have needs.
Hmmmmmmm.....I think this judgement you have made night just be wrong. Of course, I dont have any black and white stats as to how many "pro-life" ( or "pro-choice") people are so nasty to the children already born. But, since you have included everyone... "The 'pro-life' people"...that doesn't matter.
The fetus wasn`t alive till first breath because oxygen carried the life into the blood...well D`uh .... the fetus has oxygen in it`s blood BEFORE birth as well ...it just comes through the mother...
Gee, Rascal, you mean that wasn't a dormant nonliving entity kicking around in there?
Not to deny the fact that I sure had the easy part of things, but on a couple of occasions during our four together, I actually did feel those kicks...or were they punches? I know it's a big difference...like taking a punch from Ali in his prime with or without a couple of queen size mattresses seperating us. But it was enough to know that there was someone in there not just lying around dormantly waiting to come out.
To me, The Way’s take on abortion is a diversion. They try to get the focus on whether or not abortion is murder rather than whether or not abortion is godly.
On the contrary, it seems from testimony that they DID focus on the godly aspect. Note Rascal's testimony above (but after lovematters post)... if abortion was advised, as Rascal testified, so that mom could better perform her spiritual duties, then what more godly justification is there?
There of course would be a serious clash if this godly reason involved the taking of a life, thus the first breath doctrine.
Garth and Rascal are correct. TWI teaches that a fetus is not considered a human being until after it takes its first breath. They have not changed their stand on this.
If a baby is stillborn it is not considered ever having been a baby or soul life because it never took a breath on its own. Rico M*gn*ll* taught about how the nurse weighs the baby's lungs to determine if the baby was ever alive if it is stillborn. That procedure or something related to it is the same word for I think "nephesh chai" - can't remember the spelling and I can't really remember the teaching all that well, but I remember being impressed by it at the time. :(-->
This subject was taught again at the last AC Special. Maybe someone else can pitch in on the details.
quote:Garth and Rascal are correct. TWI teaches that a fetus is not considered a human being until after it takes its first breath. They have not changed their stand on this.
Agreed. But that's not the whole take on what they said, from what I read. They said the pregnancy should be continued to term if the fetus is old enough to breath on its own, or words to that effect. Kinda strange nobody here remembers this but me...but I know I'm not imagining it, I read it and it was significant enough to remember.
I'll try to find the exact quote and where it came from ...
What they *said* to you and what they *did* to others are to entirely different things oldies...
If you were corpes in training or wow or had intentions of being either, If you became pregnant....You must have an abortion...period.
God required this of anyone who was spiritually committed...to NOT do so would be to lie to God to be a breaker of vows ....to allow a *parasite* to prevent you from completeing your commitment meant that you had allowed satan to trick you....you had let God down.
It was not just me who was held to this standard ... there was a whole teaching schpeal that was trotted out for any of us who might have considered wavering in our duty and commitment to God...the same logic the same verses...different leaders different areas....
No doubt God was absolutly delighted with our loyalty to him and commitment to HIS cause ...as he watched us demonstrate our spiritual maturity...the ultimate test of our loyalty ... as we submitted ourselves and allowed our fetus/children to be butchered in HIS name for HIS service.....
I know how proud *I* feel....in hindsight ... having given my utmost for his highest:-(
Well I will say this, ultimately it was the woman's decision what to do. Did they sign the consent forms with Uzi's pointed at their temples?
For those who think all abortion is murder, no matter what trimester, it really doesn't matter, twi's position will *always* be ungodly to them. But I thought a point should be made that twi's position wasn't that cut and dry and they were seeing the difference between 1-2 trimester and 3rd trimster.
I vaguely remember an article in way rag too about abortion not being murder. I think one of the main points was that a woman could make a proper decision not based on emotions and guilt. I was never taught abortion was the way to go-other options were promoted more than the abortion option. I never knew anyone prego while wow. The only family I knew that got prego while in rez took a leave of absence to have the baby and then went back in. But I do believe rascal and others. Seems that everyone has had different experiences.
quote:But I thought a point should be made that twi's position wasn't that cut and dry and they were seeing the difference between 1-2 trimester and 3rd trimster.
Well isn't this entertaining, NOT. For the most part I agree with Raf on this. I am against abortion and always have been with the exception of saving the mothers life although the catholics beleive in saving the baby befor the mother.
Also as to Adam.......God breathed life into him....duh..who else was around to do it? his mother? and Adam wasn't a baby he was full grown so God had to make him an helpmate, so obviously Adam was in need of sex and companionship and how else could they have babies to populate the world.
I feel so bad for those poor women who had to have abortions not to protect her life, but to protect the MOG's livelyhood.
Still I have to wonder not if but how many little Weirwille's or LCM's are alive today because the women refused to end baby's life.
quote:It was very cut and dry oldies...several posters here have verified that the same scriptures and logic were used to insist that the child be aborted.
You still had a choice, no matter what one said or thought was best.
Here's my schpeal again:
(1) Adults are responsible for their actions.
(2) Those who freely availed themselves to enter programs like wow and corps, freely submitted their will to others. One *had* to follow the program (which means following other people) to remain in it, and if that meant leaving the program to have a baby, if that's what one wanted, that's what one did. Others acted differently, according to their own choices.
(3) Adults who found those programs repugnant or unacceptable, were free to leave those programs at any time.
quote: I tend to agree with Wierwille and think the Old Testament view is more reasonable.
What do you think?
What I think is, a life is a life reguardless how young it may be. vpw had his head up his ***, and (imho) was doing nothing more than the typical CYA tactics to protect himself.
Somebody give me a verse from OT, or NT, that says it is OK to kill a living being for "convienience sake".
Once again, om proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is emotionally disabled. He's got no sense of empathy whatsoever.
I would not be one little bit surprised if you have never been in a long-term relationship with a woman. Any woman.
And once again om sidetracks the thread to make sure that Everyone! Hears! His! Point! Of! View! which has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic at hand.
It's as if we were talking about red flowers, and OM pipes up (again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again) that "dangit! there are yellow flowers too!"
You were free to leave...only if you didn`t mind being posessed/contaminated spiritually.....no longer worthy to be in the presence of God OR his people due to your depravity.
Suuure you could leave the wow field/way corpes ...but at the cost of everything and everyone you held dear....shoot you were going to let a little ole *parasite* interfere with your duty to God/household/family????
Where was your commitment? where was your love for God? You owed him so much...and yet you were willing to be branded a vow breaker ...heed satans trickery in being talked out of your commitment ...when all that was needed was a simple sterile little procedure to make everything magically *all right* again??????
Sides..if you DO go against God`s will and carry this child ...it will be deformed or posessed because God wont be with you any more.
Cannot convey the contempt ...the scorn dripping tone that this was all conveyed with...
Second thoughts?? it`s satan stealing the word from you...
Shoot I actually fled from the first *appt* but was *counceled* to return....mustn`t let satan distract me with 2nd thoughts....or allow myself to be swayed by 5 senses *feelings* ...upset? feeling desperate..that it was wrong? shoot just speak in tongues and do scripture retemories....can only think one thought at a time ya know??? this time I was accompanied by a couple of leaders to make sure I didn`t chicken out.... n then was rewarded with a big weekend at the lc`s home afterward to celebrate my spiritual maturity in making the *Godly* dedcision....man wasn`t *I* special.
Steve, I don't think you're paying much attention. My response was to rascal, who's the one who sidetracked my comment on twi's supposed (yet to be proven) partial birth belief.
The real issue here is what exactly did TWI teach on the subject, ... not alleged corps coercion experiences, which is a sidetrack.
quote:Once again, om proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is emotionally disabled. He's got no sense of empathy whatsoever.
What does me having or not having empathy, or being emotionally disabled or not, have to do with this thread's topic?
You accuse me of sidetracking, then go and do thou likewise ...
SIDETRACKED?????? ALLEGED???? I told you what IS taught in twi to ladies who found themselves in my uneviable position.......and have been backed up in my account byby several posters on more than one occasion who were taught the same thing!
This isn`t some vague memory of some teaching I once read somewhere oldies...I am relating to you life and death decisions that I/we were bullied into making WITH the scriptural gobbeldy gook provided that was used to ensure obediance.
This IS What twi taught....whatever you may remember was the pap that they fed to those who weren`t *spiritual* enough to handle the greater *truths*.
I am SO proud of the *stand* that I took for God...why, I think there oughtta be a special crown for my willing obedience...don`t cha think?
OM, maybe VP taught what you said but I don't remember it. What I do remember is LCM and the teaching in his era which jives with what everyone else is saying....unless it actually breathes by itself it is not alive and not considered a human being.
Perhaps LCM had some untimely news that required he specify to the degree that he did. You look for your notes and I'll look for mine.
Wayward was correct about TWI's teaching on breath-life.
The teaching about abortion was never taught from a pulpit in the early years. It was word of mouth for the most part - or a grad night subject - after the teaching! (sorta like that Romans 14 teaching about condemnation & sin).
It took LCM to make it very, very public. In segment 10 of the WAP class "The Human Body" he teaches that:
"...God breathed into Adam's nostrils the breath of life. He would not be considered a living soul until the breath of life went into operation."
He also states that an unborn fetus is life in the woman's body, much like an arm or a leg - it's an appendage of the human body - attached. There is no life until that child is born and breathes on its own.
It isn't in the syllabus - but I remember him prefacing this teaching with a statement that basically said that abortion was not murder.
Having said that - I agree with whoever said that abortion shouldn't be used as a form of birth control. I'm pro-choice, not pro-abortion. There is a difference.
To you men who are discussing this - your experience is quite limited. Having been pregnant twice, I can assure you that in the 3rd or 4th month of pregnancy, when a baby starts moving around and kicking your insides - you know it's alive! That baby would not be viable if it was born at that time whether you call it mis-carriage or premature birth (aren't they the same thing, really?).
When that fetus starts moving around it's telling you "I'm alive! I'll be there soon!" It's when a baby STOPS moving that a woman starts to be concerned that the baby has died in her womb. Why? Because there is no sign of life!
So - do we say that a fetus is alive when it starts moving? Or breathing?
I think it's very personal and only the woman can determine what her choice will be. Not me, not you, not LCM or VPW, George W. Bush or the Pope.
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Oldies,
Most pro-choice people would tell you they believe third trimester abortions/partial birth abortions are a no-no............UNLESS the mother's health/life is at stake. Additionally most doctors will ONLY perform this proceedure if the mother's health/life is at stake. We don't need TWI to do that job and besides TWI's price tag is way too high.
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oldiesman
Raf
Your question is a good one and for someone who really wants to know what twi teaches on this, it should be clarified. I thought the teaching was in one of the "By the Way" articles, but I see now it's not. I do remember a teaching (in written form) where they wrote that if the fetus can live outside the mother's womb (on its own) then it's breathing and therefore a living soul. Since that can happen in the third trimester, that would knock out partial birth.Perhaps we can hear from someone presently in twi to verify or not verify. I'd like to know myself. What I saw was written perhaps over 20 years ago ... who knows, they may have changed that too ...
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GarthP2000
Actually, what TWI taught as far as when life begins is when the baby takes its first breath, then thats when life begins, according to the 'Gospel' of TWI. They use the example of when God gave Adam breath, and then "he became a living soul", not before.
And definitely, they clearly used the 'pro-choice', so-called 'scriptural' position in a very 'cover-your-a**' manner.
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rascal
Oldies ...I beg to differ Twi taught us women whom were pregnant at an *incovenient* time.... that abortion right and was necessary up untill to the first breath after birth WAS acceptable....none of this third trimester junk.
The TRICK was ...not letting it get that first breath...thus partial birth was acceptable and noble if it was done in order so mom could finish her spiritual *duties*.
I know a couple of women who were *counceled* that their abortion after 6 months was still ok ...just as long as the baby wasn`t allowed to take that first breath.
I know that we were taught that the fetus ..untill it took it`s first breath ...no matter how old even at 9 months....that it was still considered a parasite because it was dependant upon it`s mother/host.
The fetus wasn`t alive till first breath because oxygen carried the life into the blood...well D`uh .... the fetus has oxygen in it`s blood BEFORE birth as well ...it just comes through the mother...
It`s all lies...
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houseisarockin
Garth that is what I was taught as well.
rascal I bought the first breath thing even though I had considered what you just posted. I allowed myself to be convinced it still meant the baby's breath independent of the mother's oxygen supplied. After all who was I to beg to differ with the two MOG. Gee whiz!
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Lifted Up
Hmmmmmmm.....I think this judgement you have made night just be wrong. Of course, I dont have any black and white stats as to how many "pro-life" ( or "pro-choice") people are so nasty to the children already born. But, since you have included everyone... "The 'pro-life' people"...that doesn't matter.
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Lifted Up
Gee, Rascal, you mean that wasn't a dormant nonliving entity kicking around in there?
Not to deny the fact that I sure had the easy part of things, but on a couple of occasions during our four together, I actually did feel those kicks...or were they punches? I know it's a big difference...like taking a punch from Ali in his prime with or without a couple of queen size mattresses seperating us. But it was enough to know that there was someone in there not just lying around dormantly waiting to come out.
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Lifted Up
On the contrary, it seems from testimony that they DID focus on the godly aspect. Note Rascal's testimony above (but after lovematters post)... if abortion was advised, as Rascal testified, so that mom could better perform her spiritual duties, then what more godly justification is there?
There of course would be a serious clash if this godly reason involved the taking of a life, thus the first breath doctrine.
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WaywardWayfer
Garth and Rascal are correct. TWI teaches that a fetus is not considered a human being until after it takes its first breath. They have not changed their stand on this.
If a baby is stillborn it is not considered ever having been a baby or soul life because it never took a breath on its own. Rico M*gn*ll* taught about how the nurse weighs the baby's lungs to determine if the baby was ever alive if it is stillborn. That procedure or something related to it is the same word for I think "nephesh chai" - can't remember the spelling and I can't really remember the teaching all that well, but I remember being impressed by it at the time.
:(-->
This subject was taught again at the last AC Special. Maybe someone else can pitch in on the details.
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oldiesman
I'll try to find the exact quote and where it came from ...
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rascal
What they *said* to you and what they *did* to others are to entirely different things oldies...
If you were corpes in training or wow or had intentions of being either, If you became pregnant....You must have an abortion...period.
God required this of anyone who was spiritually committed...to NOT do so would be to lie to God to be a breaker of vows ....to allow a *parasite* to prevent you from completeing your commitment meant that you had allowed satan to trick you....you had let God down.
It was not just me who was held to this standard ... there was a whole teaching schpeal that was trotted out for any of us who might have considered wavering in our duty and commitment to God...the same logic the same verses...different leaders different areas....
No doubt God was absolutly delighted with our loyalty to him and commitment to HIS cause ...as he watched us demonstrate our spiritual maturity...the ultimate test of our loyalty ... as we submitted ourselves and allowed our fetus/children to be butchered in HIS name for HIS service.....
I know how proud *I* feel....in hindsight ... having given my utmost for his highest:-(
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oldiesman
Well I will say this, ultimately it was the woman's decision what to do. Did they sign the consent forms with Uzi's pointed at their temples?
For those who think all abortion is murder, no matter what trimester, it really doesn't matter, twi's position will *always* be ungodly to them. But I thought a point should be made that twi's position wasn't that cut and dry and they were seeing the difference between 1-2 trimester and 3rd trimster.
I'll try to find that article if I can ...
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smurfette
oldies
I vaguely remember an article in way rag too about abortion not being murder. I think one of the main points was that a woman could make a proper decision not based on emotions and guilt. I was never taught abortion was the way to go-other options were promoted more than the abortion option. I never knew anyone prego while wow. The only family I knew that got prego while in rez took a leave of absence to have the baby and then went back in. But I do believe rascal and others. Seems that everyone has had different experiences.
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Raf
Prove it.
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rascal
It was very cut and dry oldies...several posters here have verified that the same scriptures and logic were used to insist that the child be aborted.
The *uzi* held to my temple was
Shame of disobeying God ...
Shame of dissapointing God....
Fear of being *taken out* by Satan now that I was no longer in the center of God`s will.
Fear of being possessed because of being a liar ...a vow breaker and not meek to the direction of my/God`s leadership.
The ammunition in that uzi was much more terrifying than meer steel jacketed bullets :-(
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wyteduv58
Well isn't this entertaining, NOT. For the most part I agree with Raf on this. I am against abortion and always have been with the exception of saving the mothers life although the catholics beleive in saving the baby befor the mother.
Also as to Adam.......God breathed life into him....duh..who else was around to do it? his mother? and Adam wasn't a baby he was full grown so God had to make him an helpmate, so obviously Adam was in need of sex and companionship and how else could they have babies to populate the world.
I feel so bad for those poor women who had to have abortions not to protect her life, but to protect the MOG's livelyhood.
Still I have to wonder not if but how many little Weirwille's or LCM's are alive today because the women refused to end baby's life.
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oldiesman
Here's my schpeal again:
(1) Adults are responsible for their actions.
(2) Those who freely availed themselves to enter programs like wow and corps, freely submitted their will to others. One *had* to follow the program (which means following other people) to remain in it, and if that meant leaving the program to have a baby, if that's what one wanted, that's what one did. Others acted differently, according to their own choices.
(3) Adults who found those programs repugnant or unacceptable, were free to leave those programs at any time.
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dmiller
What I think is, a life is a life reguardless how young it may be. vpw had his head up his ***, and (imho) was doing nothing more than the typical CYA tactics to protect himself.
Somebody give me a verse from OT, or NT, that says it is OK to kill a living being for "convienience sake".
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Steve!
Once again, om proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is emotionally disabled. He's got no sense of empathy whatsoever.
I would not be one little bit surprised if you have never been in a long-term relationship with a woman. Any woman.
And once again om sidetracks the thread to make sure that Everyone! Hears! His! Point! Of! View! which has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic at hand.
It's as if we were talking about red flowers, and OM pipes up (again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again) that "dangit! there are yellow flowers too!"
Qu'elle simpleton.
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rascal
You were free to leave...only if you didn`t mind being posessed/contaminated spiritually.....no longer worthy to be in the presence of God OR his people due to your depravity.
Suuure you could leave the wow field/way corpes ...but at the cost of everything and everyone you held dear....shoot you were going to let a little ole *parasite* interfere with your duty to God/household/family????
Where was your commitment? where was your love for God? You owed him so much...and yet you were willing to be branded a vow breaker ...heed satans trickery in being talked out of your commitment ...when all that was needed was a simple sterile little procedure to make everything magically *all right* again??????
Sides..if you DO go against God`s will and carry this child ...it will be deformed or posessed because God wont be with you any more.
Cannot convey the contempt ...the scorn dripping tone that this was all conveyed with...
Second thoughts?? it`s satan stealing the word from you...
Shoot I actually fled from the first *appt* but was *counceled* to return....mustn`t let satan distract me with 2nd thoughts....or allow myself to be swayed by 5 senses *feelings* ...upset? feeling desperate..that it was wrong? shoot just speak in tongues and do scripture retemories....can only think one thought at a time ya know??? this time I was accompanied by a couple of leaders to make sure I didn`t chicken out.... n then was rewarded with a big weekend at the lc`s home afterward to celebrate my spiritual maturity in making the *Godly* dedcision....man wasn`t *I* special.
I`ll bet God was so proud of me THAT day...
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oldiesman
Steve, I don't think you're paying much attention. My response was to rascal, who's the one who sidetracked my comment on twi's supposed (yet to be proven) partial birth belief.
The real issue here is what exactly did TWI teach on the subject, ... not alleged corps coercion experiences, which is a sidetrack.
What does me having or not having empathy, or being emotionally disabled or not, have to do with this thread's topic?You accuse me of sidetracking, then go and do thou likewise ...
Qu'elle simpleton. ...
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rascal
SIDETRACKED?????? ALLEGED???? I told you what IS taught in twi to ladies who found themselves in my uneviable position.......and have been backed up in my account byby several posters on more than one occasion who were taught the same thing!
This isn`t some vague memory of some teaching I once read somewhere oldies...I am relating to you life and death decisions that I/we were bullied into making WITH the scriptural gobbeldy gook provided that was used to ensure obediance.
This IS What twi taught....whatever you may remember was the pap that they fed to those who weren`t *spiritual* enough to handle the greater *truths*.
I am SO proud of the *stand* that I took for God...why, I think there oughtta be a special crown for my willing obedience...don`t cha think?
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simpleton
Okay.
;)-->
OM, maybe VP taught what you said but I don't remember it. What I do remember is LCM and the teaching in his era which jives with what everyone else is saying....unless it actually breathes by itself it is not alive and not considered a human being.
Perhaps LCM had some untimely news that required he specify to the degree that he did. You look for your notes and I'll look for mine.
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Hope R.
Wayward was correct about TWI's teaching on breath-life.
The teaching about abortion was never taught from a pulpit in the early years. It was word of mouth for the most part - or a grad night subject - after the teaching! (sorta like that Romans 14 teaching about condemnation & sin).
It took LCM to make it very, very public. In segment 10 of the WAP class "The Human Body" he teaches that:
"...God breathed into Adam's nostrils the breath of life. He would not be considered a living soul until the breath of life went into operation."
He also states that an unborn fetus is life in the woman's body, much like an arm or a leg - it's an appendage of the human body - attached. There is no life until that child is born and breathes on its own.
It isn't in the syllabus - but I remember him prefacing this teaching with a statement that basically said that abortion was not murder.
Having said that - I agree with whoever said that abortion shouldn't be used as a form of birth control. I'm pro-choice, not pro-abortion. There is a difference.
To you men who are discussing this - your experience is quite limited. Having been pregnant twice, I can assure you that in the 3rd or 4th month of pregnancy, when a baby starts moving around and kicking your insides - you know it's alive! That baby would not be viable if it was born at that time whether you call it mis-carriage or premature birth (aren't they the same thing, really?).
When that fetus starts moving around it's telling you "I'm alive! I'll be there soon!" It's when a baby STOPS moving that a woman starts to be concerned that the baby has died in her womb. Why? Because there is no sign of life!
So - do we say that a fetus is alive when it starts moving? Or breathing?
I think it's very personal and only the woman can determine what her choice will be. Not me, not you, not LCM or VPW, George W. Bush or the Pope.
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