But it doesn't mean there were no trimester demarcations, and I have provided written proof of same. I'll be happy to email a copy of the magazine to anyone who wants one.
I. FETAL CIRCULATORY ANATOMY AND REMNANTS AFTER BIRTH (Fig. 29.19, 29.20, pp. 1088-1089 [986-987]) These can be seen on the fetal pig and on the illustrations. The foramen ovale is seen on the illustration only (*). Observe the boldfaced remnant structures on the heart models and torso liver model also.
A. Placenta (Fig. 29.5, p. 1067 [29.4, p. 965]) Observe the illustrations.
The placenta is a vascular organ, genetically part maternal and part fetal. It enables maternal and fetal blood to flow close by one another, separated only by permeable membranes. Maternal and fetal blood does not mix, but the placenta allows for exchange of oxygen and carbon dioxide; the fetal lungs are nonfunctional. It is a source of nutrients to the fetus, and it removes wastes. It provides maternal antibodies to the fetus. In effect, the placenta serves as the lungs, digestive system, kidneys, and immune system of the fetus. It is also a major source of reproductive and other hormones during the pregnancy.
B. Fetal blood flow (Fig. 29.19, p.1088 [986]) Trace these pathways on the illustration. 75
1. Oxygenated blood flows from the placenta via the umbilical vein in the umbilical cord.
2. Red blood from the umbilical vein enters the ductus venosus which within the liver joins the inferior vena cava. It mixes with “blue” blood within the vena cava. From this point the blood that oxygenates the fetal tissues is mixed blood. However, the fetal hemoglobin is able to pick up oxygen at a lower P02.
3. The lungs are collapsed and nonfunctional; they receive only enough blood for their own growth. Most of the blood bypasses the lungs in one of two ways:
a. The ductus arteriosus is a short, wide artery that connects the pulmonary trunk artery with the aorta. This allows most blood to bypass the lungs, although some blood still enters the right and left pulmonary arteries. There is considerable resistance to blood flow into the lungs because they are collapsed.
b. Before birth, the pressure in the right heart is higher than the pressure in the left heart. Because of this, the one-way valve, the foramen ovale, lets blood bypass the lungs by going from the right atrium to the left atrium.
4. Mixed arterial blood flows through the same arteries as in the adult to oxygenate the tissues. Used, “blue” blood leaves via the same veins as in the adult and enters the superior or inferior vena cava.
5. Mixed blood in the internal iliac arteries is sent out the two umbilical arteries through the umbilical cord to the placenta, where it becomes red, oxygenated blood. It also picks up nutrients and releases wastes.
6. The umbilical vein carries red blood from the placenta back to the fetus.
C. Birth and the stimuli for the first breath:
1. The sudden cooling as the child is born triggers the "gasp" reflex.
2. Hypoxia and hypercapnia may occur during the birth.
3. The breathing rhythm is immediate or begins after brief delay due to increased hypoxia. Delays of eight minutes are maximum tolerable. 76
D. The first breaths
Much extra effort is needed for the first breath. The child can produce more than twice the effort needed. Normal compliance (ease of inflation) is established about 40 minutes after birth.
III. CIRCULATORY READJUSTMENTS AFTER BIRTH (Fig. 29.20, p. 1089 [987])
A. Since blood no longer circulates in the placenta, blood volume in the child increases, causing increased pressure in the left ventricle, left atrium, and aorta.
B. Pulmonary resistance decreases five times as the lungs expand with air, because the blood vessels are less compressed. Also the extra O2 causes vasodilation within the lungs. This decreases the pulmonary blood pressure, right atrial and right ventricular pressures.
C. Foramen ovale closure: This one-way valve between left and right atria closes because due to the increase in left heart pressure and the decrease in right heart pressure as outlined above. (It only allowed right to left blood flow before birth.) This occurs immediately, but it grows closed and becomes the fossa ovalis within months or years (or occasionally not at all).
D. Closure of the ductus arteriosus: The smooth muscle wall of the ductus arteriosus constricts due to the higher O2 availability, and closes fully within one to eight days. Within one to four months, it is replaced with fibrous tissue. It persists for life as the ligamentum arteriosus.
E. Closure of the ductus venosus: This liver bypass conducts blood from umbilical vein to the inferior vena cava. When umbilical blood flow ceases immediately after birth, portal blood still bypasses the liver via the ductus venosus, until the ductus venosus contracts one to three hours after birth. This forces portal blood through the liver. The cause is unknown. The ductus venosus becomes the ligamentum venosum.
F. If it is not immediately cut, the umbilical cord may pulse for a few minutes after the birth but before the placenta detaches from the uterine wall. Even if the cord is not clamped, blood leakage from the cord will stop due to a gel within it that swells upon exposure to air.
G. The lack of blood flow to the wall of the umbilical arteries and vein causes fibrosis of them. The arteries become the lateral umbilical ligaments and the vein persists as the round ligament of the liver. 77
Optional notes on the fetal circulation
1. Do you wonder why the fetus’ tissues are nourished with mixed rather than fully oxygenated blood? Here’s why: Only arterial blood is under enough pressure to leave the fetus and return to the placenta to pick up oxygen. If the arterial blood were already fully oxygenated, it could not load any more oxygen. But– only arterial blood nourishes the tissues, as is true after birth; therefore, the fetus gets mixed blood. The fetal hemoglobin compensates for this situation.
2. Patent ductus arteriosus occurs when the ductus arteriosus fails to close after birth. It must be surgically corrected.
3. A septal defect (a “hole in the heart”) occurs when either the interatrial or interventricular septum has a congenital perforation. It may or may not be related to the foramen ovale. 79
Crimes allowing for the death penalty:
1. Premeditated Murder Death Penalty Required Exodus 21:12 14, 22, 23 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
WooHOOO Bliss Knocks one right outta the Ball Park!!!!
Good one....
Not that I don`t wish with every fiber of my being that you were wrong....I would love to pretend that I didn`t do anything bad...that it was just a parasite that needed to be removed in order for me to honor my vow to God....
Oldiesman said "Interesting thought: those scriptures refer to Jesus and David.
Would you proclaim the same verses for Adolph Hitler?"
Oldies, What is YOUR problem? That is a ridiculous question. Why not comment on the ''brephos'' words used...........??? I can tell you've never been pregnant.
Are you saying we can't apply the Psalms to ourselves? :unsure:
"the fetal lungs are nonfunctional"
I know, Larry, isn't God so cool? Surpressed breathing.
If the lungs were functional in the womb, then the baby would drown! No gills, just lungs for air only. Awesome.
Thanks Rascal. I hear ya. I am so sorry for all the women ( and you) who have had to go through the bondage (mental and physical) because of wrong teaching by creeps. God knows what the deal was.
I know, Larry, isn't God so cool? Surpressed breathing.
Yes He is! Ah, suppressed breathing? That's the same as not breathing at all. I think (according to the Bible) there was a point where Adam wasn't breathing either. Was it just suppressed breathing also? I mean -- yea he had fully developed lungs and all the hardware was in place but at what point did he actually come to life?
If the lungs were functional in the womb, then the baby would drown! No gills, just lungs for air only. Awesome.
Awesome, indeed! Well, yes the lungs are made for air but until it's birth those lungs are non-functioning for the purpose they were designed for. Take away air from our lungs and guess what -- we're dead. Or are we just suppressing our breathing? ;)
Oldies, What is YOUR problem? That is a ridiculous question.
I trow not, bliss. If Mrs. Hitler thought her child's days were fashioned by God, and God was looking over him in the womb as a human being, do you think she was correct?
I don't know that Psalms applies to everyone. What about Jeffrey Dahmer, was he fearfully and wonderfully made in the womb by God? Osama Bin Ladin? Mao Zedong?
I trow not, bliss. If Mrs. Hitler thought her child's days were fashioned by God, and God was looking over him in the womb as a human being, do you think she was correct?
I don't know that Psalms applies to everyone. What about Jeffrey Dahmer, was he fearfully and wonderfully made in the womb by God? Osama Bin Ladin? Mao Zedong?
Kinda makes one think, doesn't it?
Ya know - this is probably more doctrinal than About the Wayish, but I have to say Oldies, I think they were fearfully and wonderfully made in the womb by God. What they chose to do with their lives after they were born is another thing entirely. Just my opinion for the two cents or so it may be worth.
Ya know - this is probably more doctrinal than About the Wayish, but I have to say Oldies, I think they were fearfully and wonderfully made in the womb by God. What they chose to do with their lives after they were born is another thing entirely. Just my opinion for the two cents or so it may be worth.
I agree with the idea that "if" they had soul life in the womb, it'd be no different than anyone else. I just question that those verses bliss used could be used to prove that there is soul life in the womb in all cases, especially the first trimester. I do think they could have been talking about themselves primarily and not necessarily about everyone else, especially the prophesy about Jesus (or was that John the Baptist?).
Way back when, I think they did believe in evil ungodly blood lines. Joshua at Jericho for example. Destroyed everyone, man woman child, even animals. If memory serves, some lines were contaminated by the Nephilim too. But that may be off track to our discussion here.
Yes He is! Ah, suppressed breathing? That's the same as not breathing at all. I think (according to the Bible) there was a point where Adam wasn't breathing either. Was it just suppressed breathing also? I mean -- yea he had fully developed lungs and all the hardware was in place but at what point did he actually come to life?
Awesome, indeed! Well, yes the lungs are made for air but until it's birth those lungs are non-functioning for the purpose they were designed for. Take away air from our lungs and guess what -- we're dead. Or are we just suppressing our breathing? ;)
Ok, I know I am not ignorant.
I know that the lungs aren't always fully developed. But, there is a point when they are done ''cooking'' in utero.
The lungs are one of the functions that cannot ''practice'' in the womb before birth because of it's environment. I don't think it has anything to do with becoming alive neccessarily.
Babies in utero, can blink, suck thumb, heart beats, respond to touch, sound, temperature.........they can practice all those things except breathing. Once we are out of the womb, if you take away our air, all our other functions stop also (obvious).
Interesting its the opposite before birth. All those functions are working, and the lungs are ''waiting''.
Hey maybe that is the key to underwater living? LOL
But it doesn't mean there were no trimester demarcations, and I have provided written proof of same. I'll be happy to email a copy of the magazine to anyone who wants one.
Through the Advanced class, there was no WIDESPREAD teaching of anything other than life
being what was between "first breath" and "last breath"-
which itself was straight out of pfal Foundational.
If someone somewhere said otherwise, that's interesting, but that means little when the entire organization
was expected to spit back the pfal answers to anything.
If you wanted to even TAKE the Advanced class, you needed to be able to regurgitate sufficient amounts
of the pfal class.
I'm sure there were a FEW people who saw this interesting article, but overwrite the answer from the pfal class?
Sorry, I was IN twi once, and that NEVER happened,
and was suppressed if it was suggested with anything.
I am well aware that the medical community uses "trimester" demarcations to measure progress of development and monitor various aspects of the health of both mother and child.
I don't have a problem with that.
As to the offer of a pdf of the magazine article, I will decline.
My reasoning is this:
Even if it has some wonderfully educational information in it, it simply does not represent the mainstream teachings and practices of TWI.
To imply that it does is erroneous.
It might be a wonderful article, I don't know.
I have nothing personal against David C. nor am I proposing that what he presented is without merit.
Even if I had the article right in front of me and agreed with it completely, it still would NOT be representative of what was commonly accepted among the membership ranks of The Way.
The heart of the issue is that the overwhelming majority of "believers" accepted the "1st breath--- last breath" idea as being the "rightly divided Word."
And why wouldn't they? It can straight out of the PFAL class which was supposed to be the epitome of the "rightly divided Word".
Well I suppose it's moot since the feds ban partial birth abortion now. It's now a matter of adhering to the law of the land. I think this is a good thing. This is expected to trickle down to all the state legislatures, in time:
My wife and I noticed when our son was born he carried some of the same habits from the womb. He kicked with the same leg, got active at the same time of day . . . neat stuff.
I. FETAL CIRCULATORY ANATOMY AND REMNANTS AFTER BIRTH (Fig. 29.19, 29.20, pp. 1088-1089 [986-987]) These can be seen on the fetal pig and on the illustrations. The foramen ovale is seen on the illustration only (*). Observe the boldfaced remnant structures on the heart models and torso liver model also.
A. Placenta (Fig. 29.5, p. 1067 [29.4, p. 965]) Observe the illustrations.
The placenta is a vascular organ, genetically part maternal and part fetal. It enables maternal and fetal blood to flow close by one another, separated only by permeable membranes. Maternal and fetal blood does not mix, but the placenta allows for exchange of oxygen and carbon dioxide; the fetal lungs are nonfunctional. It is a source of nutrients to the fetus, and it removes wastes. It provides maternal antibodies to the fetus. In effect, the placenta serves as the lungs, digestive system, kidneys, and immune system of the fetus. It is also a major source of reproductive and other hormones during the pregnancy.
B. Fetal blood flow (Fig. 29.19, p.1088 [986]) Trace these pathways on the illustration. 75
1. Oxygenated blood flows from the placenta via the umbilical vein in the umbilical cord.
2. Red blood from the umbilical vein enters the ductus venosus which within the liver joins the inferior vena cava. It mixes with “blue” blood within the vena cava. From this point the blood that oxygenates the fetal tissues is mixed blood. However, the fetal hemoglobin is able to pick up oxygen at a lower P02.
3. The lungs are collapsed and nonfunctional; they receive only enough blood for their own growth. Most of the blood bypasses the lungs in one of two ways:
a. The ductus arteriosus is a short, wide artery that connects the pulmonary trunk artery with the aorta. This allows most blood to bypass the lungs, although some blood still enters the right and left pulmonary arteries. There is considerable resistance to blood flow into the lungs because they are collapsed.
b. Before birth, the pressure in the right heart is higher than the pressure in the left heart. Because of this, the one-way valve, the foramen ovale, lets blood bypass the lungs by going from the right atrium to the left atrium.
4. Mixed arterial blood flows through the same arteries as in the adult to oxygenate the tissues. Used, “blue” blood leaves via the same veins as in the adult and enters the superior or inferior vena cava.
5. Mixed blood in the internal iliac arteries is sent out the two umbilical arteries through the umbilical cord to the placenta, where it becomes red, oxygenated blood. It also picks up nutrients and releases wastes.
6. The umbilical vein carries red blood from the placenta back to the fetus.
C. Birth and the stimuli for the first breath:
1. The sudden cooling as the child is born triggers the "gasp" reflex.
2. Hypoxia and hypercapnia may occur during the birth.
3. The breathing rhythm is immediate or begins after brief delay due to increased hypoxia. Delays of eight minutes are maximum tolerable. 76
D. The first breaths
Much extra effort is needed for the first breath. The child can produce more than twice the effort needed. Normal compliance (ease of inflation) is established about 40 minutes after birth.
III. CIRCULATORY READJUSTMENTS AFTER BIRTH (Fig. 29.20, p. 1089 [987])
A. Since blood no longer circulates in the placenta, blood volume in the child increases, causing increased pressure in the left ventricle, left atrium, and aorta.
B. Pulmonary resistance decreases five times as the lungs expand with air, because the blood vessels are less compressed. Also the extra O2 causes vasodilation within the lungs. This decreases the pulmonary blood pressure, right atrial and right ventricular pressures.
C. Foramen ovale closure: This one-way valve between left and right atria closes because due to the increase in left heart pressure and the decrease in right heart pressure as outlined above. (It only allowed right to left blood flow before birth.) This occurs immediately, but it grows closed and becomes the fossa ovalis within months or years (or occasionally not at all).
D. Closure of the ductus arteriosus: The smooth muscle wall of the ductus arteriosus constricts due to the higher O2 availability, and closes fully within one to eight days. Within one to four months, it is replaced with fibrous tissue. It persists for life as the ligamentum arteriosus.
E. Closure of the ductus venosus: This liver bypass conducts blood from umbilical vein to the inferior vena cava. When umbilical blood flow ceases immediately after birth, portal blood still bypasses the liver via the ductus venosus, until the ductus venosus contracts one to three hours after birth. This forces portal blood through the liver. The cause is unknown. The ductus venosus becomes the ligamentum venosum.
F. If it is not immediately cut, the umbilical cord may pulse for a few minutes after the birth but before the placenta detaches from the uterine wall. Even if the cord is not clamped, blood leakage from the cord will stop due to a gel within it that swells upon exposure to air.
G. The lack of blood flow to the wall of the umbilical arteries and vein causes fibrosis of them. The arteries become the lateral umbilical ligaments and the vein persists as the round ligament of the liver. 77
Optional notes on the fetal circulation
1. Do you wonder why the fetus’ tissues are nourished with mixed rather than fully oxygenated blood? Here’s why: Only arterial blood is under enough pressure to leave the fetus and return to the placenta to pick up oxygen. If the arterial blood were already fully oxygenated, it could not load any more oxygen. But– only arterial blood nourishes the tissues, as is true after birth; therefore, the fetus gets mixed blood. The fetal hemoglobin compensates for this situation.
2. Patent ductus arteriosus occurs when the ductus arteriosus fails to close after birth. It must be surgically corrected.
3. A septal defect (a “hole in the heart”) occurs when either the interatrial or interventricular septum has a congenital perforation. It may or may not be related to the foramen ovale. 79
Crimes allowing for the death penalty:
. . .
Great evidence for intelligent design eh? Especially the differences between fetal and adult hemoglobin.
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oldiesman
But it doesn't mean there were no trimester demarcations, and I have provided written proof of same. I'll be happy to email a copy of the magazine to anyone who wants one.
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bliss
Here is what I found interesting the other day when studying the word ''babe'' in the New Testament. Not sure if it was mentioned before.
The new testament uses the Greek word brephos for both an UNBORN and Newborn infant.
When pregnant Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptist, met Mary, the brephos within her leapt for joy (Luke 1:41).
Later, Mary wrapped her brephos (Jesus) in swaddling clothes and laid Him in a manger. (Luke 2:7)
hummmmmm????? :blink:
Seems it was a baby already in God's eyes.
Funny, the Way seemed to miss this important word when they screamed ''appendage'' at us all the time.
You covered me in my mother's womb.
I will praise You, for I am
fearfully and wonderfully made.............
My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret....
And in Your book they
were all written,
The days fashioned for me.
Psalm 139:13-16
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oldiesman
Interesting thought: those scriptures refer to Jesus and David.
Would you proclaim the same verses for Adolph Hitler?
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Larry N Moore
FETAL CIRCULATION
I. FETAL CIRCULATORY ANATOMY AND REMNANTS AFTER BIRTH (Fig. 29.19, 29.20, pp. 1088-1089 [986-987]) These can be seen on the fetal pig and on the illustrations. The foramen ovale is seen on the illustration only (*). Observe the boldfaced remnant structures on the heart models and torso liver model also.
FETAL STRUCTURE REMNANT AFTER BIRTH
Umbilical vessels
Umbilical arteries (2) Lateral umbilical ligaments
Umbilical vein (1) Round ligament of the liver
Umbilical cord Umbilicus
Bypasses of the lungs
Ductus arteriosus Ligamentum arteriosus
Foramen ovale* Fossa ovalis
Bypass of the liver
Ductus venosus Ligamentum venosum
II. THE FETAL CIRCULATION
A. Placenta (Fig. 29.5, p. 1067 [29.4, p. 965]) Observe the illustrations.
The placenta is a vascular organ, genetically part maternal and part fetal. It enables maternal and fetal blood to flow close by one another, separated only by permeable membranes. Maternal and fetal blood does not mix, but the placenta allows for exchange of oxygen and carbon dioxide; the fetal lungs are nonfunctional. It is a source of nutrients to the fetus, and it removes wastes. It provides maternal antibodies to the fetus. In effect, the placenta serves as the lungs, digestive system, kidneys, and immune system of the fetus. It is also a major source of reproductive and other hormones during the pregnancy.
B. Fetal blood flow (Fig. 29.19, p.1088 [986]) Trace these pathways on the illustration. 75
1. Oxygenated blood flows from the placenta via the umbilical vein in the umbilical cord.
2. Red blood from the umbilical vein enters the ductus venosus which within the liver joins the inferior vena cava. It mixes with “blue” blood within the vena cava. From this point the blood that oxygenates the fetal tissues is mixed blood. However, the fetal hemoglobin is able to pick up oxygen at a lower P02.
3. The lungs are collapsed and nonfunctional; they receive only enough blood for their own growth. Most of the blood bypasses the lungs in one of two ways:
a. The ductus arteriosus is a short, wide artery that connects the pulmonary trunk artery with the aorta. This allows most blood to bypass the lungs, although some blood still enters the right and left pulmonary arteries. There is considerable resistance to blood flow into the lungs because they are collapsed.
b. Before birth, the pressure in the right heart is higher than the pressure in the left heart. Because of this, the one-way valve, the foramen ovale, lets blood bypass the lungs by going from the right atrium to the left atrium.
4. Mixed arterial blood flows through the same arteries as in the adult to oxygenate the tissues. Used, “blue” blood leaves via the same veins as in the adult and enters the superior or inferior vena cava.
5. Mixed blood in the internal iliac arteries is sent out the two umbilical arteries through the umbilical cord to the placenta, where it becomes red, oxygenated blood. It also picks up nutrients and releases wastes.
6. The umbilical vein carries red blood from the placenta back to the fetus.
C. Birth and the stimuli for the first breath:
1. The sudden cooling as the child is born triggers the "gasp" reflex.
2. Hypoxia and hypercapnia may occur during the birth.
3. The breathing rhythm is immediate or begins after brief delay due to increased hypoxia. Delays of eight minutes are maximum tolerable. 76
D. The first breaths
Much extra effort is needed for the first breath. The child can produce more than twice the effort needed. Normal compliance (ease of inflation) is established about 40 minutes after birth.
III. CIRCULATORY READJUSTMENTS AFTER BIRTH (Fig. 29.20, p. 1089 [987])
A. Since blood no longer circulates in the placenta, blood volume in the child increases, causing increased pressure in the left ventricle, left atrium, and aorta.
B. Pulmonary resistance decreases five times as the lungs expand with air, because the blood vessels are less compressed. Also the extra O2 causes vasodilation within the lungs. This decreases the pulmonary blood pressure, right atrial and right ventricular pressures.
C. Foramen ovale closure: This one-way valve between left and right atria closes because due to the increase in left heart pressure and the decrease in right heart pressure as outlined above. (It only allowed right to left blood flow before birth.) This occurs immediately, but it grows closed and becomes the fossa ovalis within months or years (or occasionally not at all).
D. Closure of the ductus arteriosus: The smooth muscle wall of the ductus arteriosus constricts due to the higher O2 availability, and closes fully within one to eight days. Within one to four months, it is replaced with fibrous tissue. It persists for life as the ligamentum arteriosus.
E. Closure of the ductus venosus: This liver bypass conducts blood from umbilical vein to the inferior vena cava. When umbilical blood flow ceases immediately after birth, portal blood still bypasses the liver via the ductus venosus, until the ductus venosus contracts one to three hours after birth. This forces portal blood through the liver. The cause is unknown. The ductus venosus becomes the ligamentum venosum.
F. If it is not immediately cut, the umbilical cord may pulse for a few minutes after the birth but before the placenta detaches from the uterine wall. Even if the cord is not clamped, blood leakage from the cord will stop due to a gel within it that swells upon exposure to air.
G. The lack of blood flow to the wall of the umbilical arteries and vein causes fibrosis of them. The arteries become the lateral umbilical ligaments and the vein persists as the round ligament of the liver. 77
Optional notes on the fetal circulation
1. Do you wonder why the fetus’ tissues are nourished with mixed rather than fully oxygenated blood? Here’s why: Only arterial blood is under enough pressure to leave the fetus and return to the placenta to pick up oxygen. If the arterial blood were already fully oxygenated, it could not load any more oxygen. But– only arterial blood nourishes the tissues, as is true after birth; therefore, the fetus gets mixed blood. The fetal hemoglobin compensates for this situation.
2. Patent ductus arteriosus occurs when the ductus arteriosus fails to close after birth. It must be surgically corrected.
3. A septal defect (a “hole in the heart”) occurs when either the interatrial or interventricular septum has a congenital perforation. It may or may not be related to the foramen ovale. 79
Crimes allowing for the death penalty:
1. Premeditated Murder Death Penalty Required Exodus 21:12 14, 22, 23 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
2. Kidnapping Exodus 21:16; Deuteronomy 24:7
3. Striking or Cursing Parents Exodus 21:15; Leviticus 20:9; Proverbs 20:20;
Matthew 15:4; Mark 7:10
4. Magic and Divination Exodus 22:18
5. Bestiality Exodus 22:19; Leviticus 20:15, 16
6. Sacrificing to False Gods Exodus 22:20
7. Profaning the Sabbath Exodus 35:2; Numbers 15:32 36
8. Offering Human Sacrifice Leviticus 20:2
9. Adultery Leviticus 20:10 21; Deuteronomy 22:22
10. Incest Leviticus 20:11, 12, 14
11. Homosexuality Leviticus 20:13
12. Blasphemy Leviticus 24:11 14, 16, 23
13. False Prophecy Deuteronomy 13:1 10
14. Incorrigible Rebelliousness Deuteronomy 17:12; 21:18 21
15. Fornication Deuteronomy 22:20, 21
16. Rape of Betrothed Virgin Deuteronomy 22:23 27
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rascal
WooHOOO Bliss Knocks one right outta the Ball Park!!!!
Good one....
Not that I don`t wish with every fiber of my being that you were wrong....I would love to pretend that I didn`t do anything bad...that it was just a parasite that needed to be removed in order for me to honor my vow to God....
The implications are otherwise overwhelming.
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Larry N Moore
:)
Edited by Larry N MooreLink to comment
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bliss
Oldiesman said "Interesting thought: those scriptures refer to Jesus and David.
Would you proclaim the same verses for Adolph Hitler?"
Oldies, What is YOUR problem? That is a ridiculous question. Why not comment on the ''brephos'' words used...........??? I can tell you've never been pregnant.
Are you saying we can't apply the Psalms to ourselves? :unsure:
"the fetal lungs are nonfunctional"
I know, Larry, isn't God so cool? Surpressed breathing.
If the lungs were functional in the womb, then the baby would drown! No gills, just lungs for air only. Awesome.
Thanks Rascal. I hear ya. I am so sorry for all the women ( and you) who have had to go through the bondage (mental and physical) because of wrong teaching by creeps. God knows what the deal was.
Those babies are waiting in His arms.
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Larry N Moore
Yes He is! Ah, suppressed breathing? That's the same as not breathing at all. I think (according to the Bible) there was a point where Adam wasn't breathing either. Was it just suppressed breathing also? I mean -- yea he had fully developed lungs and all the hardware was in place but at what point did he actually come to life?
Awesome, indeed! Well, yes the lungs are made for air but until it's birth those lungs are non-functioning for the purpose they were designed for. Take away air from our lungs and guess what -- we're dead. Or are we just suppressing our breathing? ;)
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oldiesman
I trow not, bliss. If Mrs. Hitler thought her child's days were fashioned by God, and God was looking over him in the womb as a human being, do you think she was correct?
I don't know that Psalms applies to everyone. What about Jeffrey Dahmer, was he fearfully and wonderfully made in the womb by God? Osama Bin Ladin? Mao Zedong?
Kinda makes one think, doesn't it?
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Abigail
Ya know - this is probably more doctrinal than About the Wayish, but I have to say Oldies, I think they were fearfully and wonderfully made in the womb by God. What they chose to do with their lives after they were born is another thing entirely. Just my opinion for the two cents or so it may be worth.
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oldiesman
The answer to that is pretty obvious. It can't apply to every human being who ever lived. Doesn't make sense.
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rascal
Bliss, I guess folks just don`t want the accuracy of the scriptures to get in the way of that which they desire to believe...
So WHAT if the same word for the fetus Jesus was the same word for the born Jesus???
The old adage..*My mind is made up...DON`T confuse me with the facts* would come into play here.
Thanks for understanding...I hope that you are right...but then again, I am afraid that you are....what do you say to the child that you destroyed?
Sorry just doesn`t quite seem to cover it :(
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oldiesman
I agree with the idea that "if" they had soul life in the womb, it'd be no different than anyone else. I just question that those verses bliss used could be used to prove that there is soul life in the womb in all cases, especially the first trimester. I do think they could have been talking about themselves primarily and not necessarily about everyone else, especially the prophesy about Jesus (or was that John the Baptist?).
Way back when, I think they did believe in evil ungodly blood lines. Joshua at Jericho for example. Destroyed everyone, man woman child, even animals. If memory serves, some lines were contaminated by the Nephilim too. But that may be off track to our discussion here.
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bliss
Ok, I know I am not ignorant.
I know that the lungs aren't always fully developed. But, there is a point when they are done ''cooking'' in utero.
The lungs are one of the functions that cannot ''practice'' in the womb before birth because of it's environment. I don't think it has anything to do with becoming alive neccessarily.
Babies in utero, can blink, suck thumb, heart beats, respond to touch, sound, temperature.........they can practice all those things except breathing. Once we are out of the womb, if you take away our air, all our other functions stop also (obvious).
Interesting its the opposite before birth. All those functions are working, and the lungs are ''waiting''.
Hey maybe that is the key to underwater living? LOL
Oldies, you are straining nats!
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oldiesman
I trow not. :)
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WordWolf
Through the Advanced class, there was no WIDESPREAD teaching of anything other than life
being what was between "first breath" and "last breath"-
which itself was straight out of pfal Foundational.
If someone somewhere said otherwise, that's interesting, but that means little when the entire organization
was expected to spit back the pfal answers to anything.
If you wanted to even TAKE the Advanced class, you needed to be able to regurgitate sufficient amounts
of the pfal class.
I'm sure there were a FEW people who saw this interesting article, but overwrite the answer from the pfal class?
Sorry, I was IN twi once, and that NEVER happened,
and was suppressed if it was suggested with anything.
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waysider
I am well aware that the medical community uses "trimester" demarcations to measure progress of development and monitor various aspects of the health of both mother and child.
I don't have a problem with that.
As to the offer of a pdf of the magazine article, I will decline.
My reasoning is this:
Even if it has some wonderfully educational information in it, it simply does not represent the mainstream teachings and practices of TWI.
To imply that it does is erroneous.
It might be a wonderful article, I don't know.
I have nothing personal against David C. nor am I proposing that what he presented is without merit.
Even if I had the article right in front of me and agreed with it completely, it still would NOT be representative of what was commonly accepted among the membership ranks of The Way.
The heart of the issue is that the overwhelming majority of "believers" accepted the "1st breath--- last breath" idea as being the "rightly divided Word."
And why wouldn't they? It can straight out of the PFAL class which was supposed to be the epitome of the "rightly divided Word".
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oldiesman
Well I suppose it's moot since the feds ban partial birth abortion now. It's now a matter of adhering to the law of the land. I think this is a good thing. This is expected to trickle down to all the state legislatures, in time:
PARTIAL BIRTH ABORTION ACT OF 2003
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Lifted Up
I think a lot of people outside the Way miss it as well, whether through disbelief or ignorance.
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Bolshevik
My wife and I noticed when our son was born he carried some of the same habits from the womb. He kicked with the same leg, got active at the same time of day . . . neat stuff.
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Bolshevik
Great evidence for intelligent design eh? Especially the differences between fetal and adult hemoglobin.
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waysider
Hi there, Bolski.
Nothin' new to add, really.
Just wanted to pop in and say-----
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