This is a long thread so I haven't read it all yet. I wanted to get this out.
Years ago my wife and I announced to her parents she was pregnant. We were fresh from the gulag and thus broke. The pregnancy was unplanned and we were busy putting our lives together (and still are). Well, her father (an innie) asked to see if this is really what we wanted, that we knew things would be more difficult, and that abortion is an option.
My wife and I had already decided to keep him. My wife was unsure at first and let me know that as "the man" if I wanted to abort, she'd go ahead and do it. (Fortunately) I felt uncomfortable with the whole abortion idea and decided we'd go ahead with the pregnancy despite all the added difficulty to our situation.
Here we were being adults (me, my wife and her parents) sitting around making an important decision based on our beliefs. Abortion is not murder and therefore an option. Well we've had the baby since then and everything is okay.
Until, on another thread I asked if vpw and lcm had any little bastards running around due to their hobbies. Someone reminded me of the abortion doctrine.
I felt sick. There's a good possibility that the abortion doctrine of twi is a result of making an excuse to cover up previous affairs. And now people are basing their decisions on that. Why else would someone yell every third service that "abortion is not murder"?
Nothing was wrong with my wife's health. A pregnancy wouldn't kill her. But we were talking about a fetus or embryo like were making a decision to buy a car.
Whether or not God equates a fetus or embryo to a human being, I don't know. But the idea that these types of decisions are based on the twisted cover-up thinking of an egotist who thinks he deserve excessive amounts of a$$, well, that's just gross.
Just wanted to bring this one back up to the top, in response to the recent decision to block the partial birth abortion ban.<BR><BR>It's disgusting, isn't it? <BR><BR>U.S. District Judge Phyllis Hamilton's ruling agrees with abortion rights activists that a woman's right to choose is paramount, and that it is therefore "irrelevant" whether a fetus suffers pain, as abortion foes contend.<BR><BR>That second part is ridiculous. Can anything be more barbaric than sucking out a baby's brains before they're born? First or second trimester is one thing, but partial birth is so devilish.<BR><BR>I agree with TWI's teaching on this, which has been that 1-2 trimester abortion is not murder, but 3rd is a no-no, so I'm glad twi at least had/has the good sense to teach folks to oppose that barbaric procedure.
So. . .If the fetus in near the third trimester, but not quite, mom's not sure, maybe still in the second trimester. . .then what? Do we start examining fluids? What does the Word say on that?
Thank you for resurrecting an old thread of mine. Your continued posts are appreciated. :)
...
Whether or not God equates a fetus or embryo to a human being, I don't know. But the idea that these types of decisions are based on the twisted cover-up thinking of an egotist who thinks he deserve excessive amounts of a$$, well, that's just gross.
F.U. twi
Hard to prove that the teaching was all motivated by something that self-serving...
So. . .If the fetus in near the third trimester, but not quite, mom's not sure, maybe still in the second trimester. . .then what? Do we start examining fluids? What does the Word say on that?
Haven't seen any scripture on this; if you find any let me know. I defer to my own common horse sense and believe it is a crime to abort a child that can live outside the womb.
Hard to prove that the teaching was all motivated by something that self-serving...
Why else would someone yell every third service that "abortion is not murder"?
Really, lcm would yell about this as much as JC not God or dead not alive stuff. It didn't necessarly apply to the teachings goal (if there was one). Why would he do that? Why would this get him so worked up? If someone believed abortion is murder, I could understand them getting upset. Why lcm? Nobody was murdered. Calm down dude.
Does anyone know if vpw was as or nearly fanatical about this subject? When was there a beginning to this teaching? (I'm still digging through the other threads)
Wierwille taught, as early as the PFAL class, that life begins with the first breath and ends with the last. That was the foundation for the various paramutations that evolved over the years. As with many things he taught, he had a tendency to take a complex issue and reduce it to utter simplicity. Then, to compound the issue, he made cynical remarks about anyone who couldn't see how "simple" the answer was. The implication was often that if you don't see the simplicity you must not have reached a high enough level of spiritual maturity. Take your pick of examples: adultery, abortion, mental illness, cancer, poverty, etc. The answer was always "get them into the PFAL class so they can see the simplicity for themselves".
Consider ,if you will, the much heralded "green card" used to enroll students for PFAL. It really doesn't matter that someone may jump in and point out that they personally received this promise or that. The point is that this "magical class" reduced the answers to lifes' crucial issues to one simple Bible class. Does that mean that there was nothing of value to be found in the class? No,in my opinion, but it also doesn't mean that everything in life can be reduced to some cut and dry, pat solution.
The fetus is an appendage!? --- I forgot about that one.
Someone correct me on the what the medical community thinks.
The blood doesn't mix. Baby blood and mommy blood are separate. Always, and if it does mix, there can be problems that kill the baby.(Rh+ blood types)
Far as I know, a mucous plug holds the liquid in, technically the womb is outside just as our intestinal lining is considered outside the body. The placenta communicates between baby and mommy.
My wife explained this to me. Basically the newborn is much like it was in the womb for about 3 months after birth. A few differences but essentially an out-of-womb-like-fetus. I think she read this in a book called "Baby Wise". That got me thinking.
What's so special about the first breath? (aside from the fact it can now breath on its own, just like the first steps or words)
So is someone on a breathing machine the walking dead?
I thought all the replies were really interesting. But I have to say that regardless when a baby is really alive or not I find the ministries belief and teachings that abortions were all right (and all the rage too I might add) was terrible. I know ordained ministers who were TELLING people who wanted to keep their babies to get abortions because "the timing wasn't right".
I'd hate to be those leaders/teachers who have to stand before the Lord and explain why that particular teaching was prevelant in the ministry. It was horrible. Maybe later on they took a different stance but in the early years it was terrible.
I've only perused this thread; someday I might read it.
Perhaps the thread is more about doctrine than an individual dealing with any repercussions regarding the experience of ending life in one's womb.
But from the last couple posts, perhaps experience has been discussed as well. Some might find the following link helpful in working through the experience.
I don't even like the word abortion; it's a cold term to me, an effin' procedure. I have heard the statement "grieving an abortion." IMO, a person doesn't just grieve the abortion; s/he grieves (among other stuff) the loss of his/her unborn child, knowing s/he chose to abort that child.
Someone may have already posted something like this. If so, here it is again.
in spirt of the teaching that it was not murder because the penalty was different in the bible for causing a woman to lose fruit....
in spite of being assured that it was REQUIRED in order to honor ones vow to God...
in spite of having killed the child so as to not be found guilty of lying to God....
It is a decision force upon one by twi doctrines and enforced by it`s leaders...two decades later...in spite of having done everything according to twi doctrines to try to be pleasing to God...it has been a decision that has had life long impact....well for me...the baby didn`t get a chance at life did it? :(
I understand now that God had nothing to do with what was being required...I would think had it been God sanctioned, or a sound decision doctrinally, or spiritually.....it would have had the mark of God`s blessing from making spiritually sound choices.
I think the most adamant critics of abortion are those who have endured one, or have had to pick up the pieces of people's lives after the fact.
Der Gulag had a real simple "solution"- mark somebody with "issues" as devil possessed and simply throw them to the curb.
you didn't have the luxury to even properly mourn the death of a spouse or loved one before somebody was in your business, telling you how you oughta just get over it.
Zero tolerance policy.. in only you'd just "renew" da mind.
vic and loy didn't have to pick up the pieces. To them, abortion was just a "little" thing.
I still think they oughta be women in the next life.. if there is such a thing.
I remember when I got in der vey- MOST people were sooooo health conscious, eating natural foods, trying to adopt natural methods for health care, shunning "unnatural" types of things.. at least in the early seventies.
How in the world did we adopt a doctrine that allowed such an UNNATURAL concept?
I had a miscarriage. The doctor told me two weeks before it happened that it would and instead of doing a d & c, let it happen naturally. I prayed. I cried. I talked to my tc (wc), but you know, since it wasn’t breathing and really wasn’t a baby I had no right to feel grief and shouldn’t care. I was 3 mos along.
I condemned myself for not believing. It was all my fault, as far as I was concerned.
On the day it happened I went into labor at the grocery store. I weirded out and drove myself home 30 miles. Then I realized I needed to go to the doctor and drove 45 mi to the clinic. I was in shock or something. Hard to drive when you are in heavy labor. It didn’t cross my mind to call anyone.
When I got to the clinic and was brought to the exam room, I was bleeding profusely. I never saw so much blood in my life. Later that night I had to have an emergency d & c to stop the hemorrhaging.
And no one from twi cared. Not even my spouse, because you know, it wasn’t a baby and didn’t matter. This was 20 years ago, and every once in awhile I still feel grief, and still wonder if it was a boy or girl.
I'm at a loss for words so I'll just say that I am so sorry to hear of your experience. It takes a lot of courage to relive something like that. Thank you.
I had a miscarriage. The doctor told me two weeks before it happened that it would and instead of doing a d & c, let it happen naturally. I prayed. I cried. I talked to my tc (wc), but you know, since it wasn’t breathing and really wasn’t a baby I had no right to feel grief and shouldn’t care. I was 3 mos along.
I condemned myself for not believing. It was all my fault, as far as I was concerned.
On the day it happened I went into labor at the grocery store. I weirded out and drove myself home 30 miles. Then I realized I needed to go to the doctor and drove 45 mi to the clinic. I was in shock or something. Hard to drive when you are in heavy labor. It didn’t cross my mind to call anyone.
When I got to the clinic and was brought to the exam room, I was bleeding profusely. I never saw so much blood in my life. Later that night I had to have an emergency d & c to stop the hemorrhaging.
And no one from twi cared. Not even my spouse, because you know, it wasn’t a baby and didn’t matter. This was 20 years ago, and every once in awhile I still feel grief, and still wonder if it was a boy or girl.
Another spot - I'm so sorry you had to go through that. I had a miscarriage too and no one seemed to care. I was 2 months pregnant. You do know now that it wasn't your fault don't you? I still think of my baby too. Love you lots. Edi
Thanks yall. I think Grease Spot is about recovery and helping each other understand what happened. Being in a cult is a complicated thing. And so pervasive. And no I don't blame myself now.
I disagree with twi stance on the unborn. If it is alive, ie it is growing, it has a heartbeat, it is just plain nuts to say it isn't alive. This is just common sense and I don't need a Bible verse to prove it. I can think and do a lot of things without a Bible verse to tell me about it. I am not putting down the Bible, at all. "The only rule to faith and practise" (sp?), well that's kinda weird all by itself taken to the extreme.
I haven't read the entire thread but I will point out a few of TWI teaching on the subject that may or may not have been mentioned.
It was taught that abortion was a decision that was between a woman, God, and her minister. Note how they had to add her minister into the mix. I guess this was to have someone who could communicate God's will in the situation.
I think it was at a ROA that this was taught, maybe '94?
It was also taught that even if a baby was born but could not breathe on it's own (had to be hooked up to breathing machines), the child did not have soul life until it took it's first breath on it's own.
I have some personal experience in TWI and this topic that I will share later.
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Bolshevik
This is a long thread so I haven't read it all yet. I wanted to get this out.
Years ago my wife and I announced to her parents she was pregnant. We were fresh from the gulag and thus broke. The pregnancy was unplanned and we were busy putting our lives together (and still are). Well, her father (an innie) asked to see if this is really what we wanted, that we knew things would be more difficult, and that abortion is an option.
My wife and I had already decided to keep him. My wife was unsure at first and let me know that as "the man" if I wanted to abort, she'd go ahead and do it. (Fortunately) I felt uncomfortable with the whole abortion idea and decided we'd go ahead with the pregnancy despite all the added difficulty to our situation.
Here we were being adults (me, my wife and her parents) sitting around making an important decision based on our beliefs. Abortion is not murder and therefore an option. Well we've had the baby since then and everything is okay.
Until, on another thread I asked if vpw and lcm had any little bastards running around due to their hobbies. Someone reminded me of the abortion doctrine.
I felt sick. There's a good possibility that the abortion doctrine of twi is a result of making an excuse to cover up previous affairs. And now people are basing their decisions on that. Why else would someone yell every third service that "abortion is not murder"?
Nothing was wrong with my wife's health. A pregnancy wouldn't kill her. But we were talking about a fetus or embryo like were making a decision to buy a car.
Whether or not God equates a fetus or embryo to a human being, I don't know. But the idea that these types of decisions are based on the twisted cover-up thinking of an egotist who thinks he deserve excessive amounts of a$$, well, that's just gross.
F.U. twi
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waysider
Geeze!
I've never seen this thread before.(Not stalkin' ya, Bolshevik,honest)
(There was another thread on abortion in the doctrinal section a couple of months ago.)
I'm gonna have to go back and look at this one.
OK---That's it. I'm never going to follow you from one thread to another ever again.
HAHA-----had my fingers crossed behind my back!
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Bolshevik
So. . .If the fetus in near the third trimester, but not quite, mom's not sure, maybe still in the second trimester. . .then what? Do we start examining fluids? What does the Word say on that?
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oldiesman
Thank you for resurrecting an old thread of mine. Your continued posts are appreciated. :)
Hard to prove that the teaching was all motivated by something that self-serving...
Haven't seen any scripture on this; if you find any let me know. I defer to my own common horse sense and believe it is a crime to abort a child that can live outside the womb.
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Bolshevik
Really, lcm would yell about this as much as JC not God or dead not alive stuff. It didn't necessarly apply to the teachings goal (if there was one). Why would he do that? Why would this get him so worked up? If someone believed abortion is murder, I could understand them getting upset. Why lcm? Nobody was murdered. Calm down dude.
Does anyone know if vpw was as or nearly fanatical about this subject? When was there a beginning to this teaching? (I'm still digging through the other threads)
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waysider
Wierwille taught, as early as the PFAL class, that life begins with the first breath and ends with the last. That was the foundation for the various paramutations that evolved over the years. As with many things he taught, he had a tendency to take a complex issue and reduce it to utter simplicity. Then, to compound the issue, he made cynical remarks about anyone who couldn't see how "simple" the answer was. The implication was often that if you don't see the simplicity you must not have reached a high enough level of spiritual maturity. Take your pick of examples: adultery, abortion, mental illness, cancer, poverty, etc. The answer was always "get them into the PFAL class so they can see the simplicity for themselves".
Consider ,if you will, the much heralded "green card" used to enroll students for PFAL. It really doesn't matter that someone may jump in and point out that they personally received this promise or that. The point is that this "magical class" reduced the answers to lifes' crucial issues to one simple Bible class. Does that mean that there was nothing of value to be found in the class? No,in my opinion, but it also doesn't mean that everything in life can be reduced to some cut and dry, pat solution.
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Danny
Oldies let me break it to you everything that vee pee did was self serving.
He was not God he was not Jesus Christ he wasn't even a DR.
He was a scam a lier and a thief.
Why would in Gods good name I would think anything he taught would be true?
And you never being married and never being faced with real life issues in this subject
How can you tell me what is it like to know what a life changing choice would be like?
I have had to make some hard ones in this area.
When you lay a baby to its final resting place maybe you might get a hint a faint light
of what a decision like this is all about. When you have shed a million tears and have
seen the dark night of the soul then maybe you might look at things a little different.
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Bolshevik
Danny,
I offer my deepest condolences. Sorry to hear that.
Love,
Bolshevik's wife.
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coolchef
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{danny}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
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Bolshevik
The fetus is an appendage!? --- I forgot about that one.
Someone correct me on the what the medical community thinks.
The blood doesn't mix. Baby blood and mommy blood are separate. Always, and if it does mix, there can be problems that kill the baby.(Rh+ blood types)
Far as I know, a mucous plug holds the liquid in, technically the womb is outside just as our intestinal lining is considered outside the body. The placenta communicates between baby and mommy.
Appendage!?
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Bolshevik
Anyone heard of the "Fourth Trimester?"
My wife explained this to me. Basically the newborn is much like it was in the womb for about 3 months after birth. A few differences but essentially an out-of-womb-like-fetus. I think she read this in a book called "Baby Wise". That got me thinking.
What's so special about the first breath? (aside from the fact it can now breath on its own, just like the first steps or words)
So is someone on a breathing machine the walking dead?
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Edi
I thought all the replies were really interesting. But I have to say that regardless when a baby is really alive or not I find the ministries belief and teachings that abortions were all right (and all the rage too I might add) was terrible. I know ordained ministers who were TELLING people who wanted to keep their babies to get abortions because "the timing wasn't right".
I'd hate to be those leaders/teachers who have to stand before the Lord and explain why that particular teaching was prevelant in the ministry. It was horrible. Maybe later on they took a different stance but in the early years it was terrible.
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I Love Bagpipes
I've only perused this thread; someday I might read it.
Perhaps the thread is more about doctrine than an individual dealing with any repercussions regarding the experience of ending life in one's womb.
But from the last couple posts, perhaps experience has been discussed as well. Some might find the following link helpful in working through the experience.
I don't even like the word abortion; it's a cold term to me, an effin' procedure. I have heard the statement "grieving an abortion." IMO, a person doesn't just grieve the abortion; s/he grieves (among other stuff) the loss of his/her unborn child, knowing s/he chose to abort that child.
Someone may have already posted something like this. If so, here it is again.
A link:
http://www.afterabortion.org/healing/index.htm
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rascal
I just know that in spite of twi teachings....
in spite of it not having breathed...
in spirt of the teaching that it was not murder because the penalty was different in the bible for causing a woman to lose fruit....
in spite of being assured that it was REQUIRED in order to honor ones vow to God...
in spite of having killed the child so as to not be found guilty of lying to God....
It is a decision force upon one by twi doctrines and enforced by it`s leaders...two decades later...in spite of having done everything according to twi doctrines to try to be pleasing to God...it has been a decision that has had life long impact....well for me...the baby didn`t get a chance at life did it? :(
I understand now that God had nothing to do with what was being required...I would think had it been God sanctioned, or a sound decision doctrinally, or spiritually.....it would have had the mark of God`s blessing from making spiritually sound choices.
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Ham
I think the most adamant critics of abortion are those who have endured one, or have had to pick up the pieces of people's lives after the fact.
Der Gulag had a real simple "solution"- mark somebody with "issues" as devil possessed and simply throw them to the curb.
you didn't have the luxury to even properly mourn the death of a spouse or loved one before somebody was in your business, telling you how you oughta just get over it.
Zero tolerance policy.. in only you'd just "renew" da mind.
vic and loy didn't have to pick up the pieces. To them, abortion was just a "little" thing.
I still think they oughta be women in the next life.. if there is such a thing.
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Ham
vic and loy.. hmmmph.
I think their character and "compassion" came right out of a dark character in a Hemmingway story..
sheesh.
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Ham
I remember when I got in der vey- MOST people were sooooo health conscious, eating natural foods, trying to adopt natural methods for health care, shunning "unnatural" types of things.. at least in the early seventies.
How in the world did we adopt a doctrine that allowed such an UNNATURAL concept?
It is cold, "logical", and so sterile..
Just thinking.
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another spot
Well I reckon I’ll tell my tale.
I had a miscarriage. The doctor told me two weeks before it happened that it would and instead of doing a d & c, let it happen naturally. I prayed. I cried. I talked to my tc (wc), but you know, since it wasn’t breathing and really wasn’t a baby I had no right to feel grief and shouldn’t care. I was 3 mos along.
I condemned myself for not believing. It was all my fault, as far as I was concerned.
On the day it happened I went into labor at the grocery store. I weirded out and drove myself home 30 miles. Then I realized I needed to go to the doctor and drove 45 mi to the clinic. I was in shock or something. Hard to drive when you are in heavy labor. It didn’t cross my mind to call anyone.
When I got to the clinic and was brought to the exam room, I was bleeding profusely. I never saw so much blood in my life. Later that night I had to have an emergency d & c to stop the hemorrhaging.
And no one from twi cared. Not even my spouse, because you know, it wasn’t a baby and didn’t matter. This was 20 years ago, and every once in awhile I still feel grief, and still wonder if it was a boy or girl.
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waysider
Another Spot
I'm at a loss for words so I'll just say that I am so sorry to hear of your experience. It takes a lot of courage to relive something like that. Thank you.
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Edi
Another spot - I'm so sorry you had to go through that. I had a miscarriage too and no one seemed to care. I was 2 months pregnant. You do know now that it wasn't your fault don't you? I still think of my baby too. Love you lots. Edi
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dmiller
You'll find out at the return, and YES -- it was a baby.
A living human being.
The twi *compassion* sickens me. What a "ministry", eh??? :(
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Bolshevik
Yes, I have to ask.
Reading some of these sad stories that women have been put through,
Would not God Almighty give these moms eternal fellowship with these babies? I doubt he wouldn't.
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another spot
Thanks yall. I think Grease Spot is about recovery and helping each other understand what happened. Being in a cult is a complicated thing. And so pervasive. And no I don't blame myself now.
I disagree with twi stance on the unborn. If it is alive, ie it is growing, it has a heartbeat, it is just plain nuts to say it isn't alive. This is just common sense and I don't need a Bible verse to prove it. I can think and do a lot of things without a Bible verse to tell me about it. I am not putting down the Bible, at all. "The only rule to faith and practise" (sp?), well that's kinda weird all by itself taken to the extreme.
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Through the Looking Glass
I haven't read the entire thread but I will point out a few of TWI teaching on the subject that may or may not have been mentioned.
It was taught that abortion was a decision that was between a woman, God, and her minister. Note how they had to add her minister into the mix. I guess this was to have someone who could communicate God's will in the situation.
I think it was at a ROA that this was taught, maybe '94?
It was also taught that even if a baby was born but could not breathe on it's own (had to be hooked up to breathing machines), the child did not have soul life until it took it's first breath on it's own.
I have some personal experience in TWI and this topic that I will share later.
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