i have asked if this turned into a support group for the sorrow and regret from an abortion apparently it has ok then TWO issues are in this thread now. Also your points were written by me several pages ago about the fornication issues in twi. I do get the fact intimidation was used in twi and as i said intimidation and insult are used in this very thread . yes it is a bad thing when that happens . ok we agree and your just saying what I said about 7 pages ago.
again clarify , I agree people went wow that did not realize some of the doctrine twi taught and had to learn it far away from home in financial straits under pressure and often was forced to leave the field due to circumstances that they may not see coming due to ignorance about twi or what it taught. Rascal ws it not the Wow field not corps this incident happened to you?
I always assumed by the time a person decided to go into the corps , they knew twi they knew the word was what was the most important and they knew enough dealings with the leaders to realize it was a totaly serious commintment, and they certainly no doubt knew what pfal was all about.
oldiesman and mj412, because I find things in amongst your words that I agree with completely I continue to read you both in respect to my learning from you. However some of things you both say make my brain hurt and this is one of those.
Where does it say she will have a greater fruit basket, golden necklace or "whatever" if she chooses to abort an unborn child? Their belief system means nothing if not founded on how a child can thwart the actions of a servant of God towards Him! Yes it is their set of rules in order to be a part of the training. Yes it is their right to have rules. Yes many have gone through the training with no horror stories to tell. Yes it is...on and on. BUT whether you believe it murder or not makes no difference! Where does it say she needs to abort in order to serve God greater and not be hindered?
We are talking about a group that stands on the mountain top and proclaims all that they do and live is according the "rightly divided" Word. It is their claim, not mine!
Im sorry you do not have a good relationship with your uncle Rascal.
but no it doesnt sound like me to much I have had large huge amounts of responsibility in my life and have taken very good care of myself and others. Im proud of that no doubt.
I can say Im sorry easy ,and mean it when Im sorry and I sometimes am! and I can forgive myself and others for the human condition we all live in .
where mental health would take you? no clue what your talking about here but I know today if a person must battle depression and negative thoughts of guilt and shame that tend to stop a productive happy life medicine and help is available so life can get better. my sister and a dear friend both take pills to help them cope with some of the difficult times they faced in life and inability to cope, both now seek a positive path of good choices .
just an option at times you sound so angry Rascal and it is a fact anger in females is often manifests itself as depression .
You have asked me to not "badger" you yet then you write posts that adrress me personaly and then claim im bothering you when I respond . which way would you like rascal?
I do not think the bible states any such thing . I never heard any of those terms in twi fruit basket necklace whatever....
Rascal is claiming she was told something to that effect in consel with another way believer. she would be the one to comment on what Bible verse they may or may not have used concerning her problem.
my only input is the fact the way believes it IS the word when they say a pregnancy is not a life so abortion can be an option in the case of an unwanted pregnancy without any consideration of murder or sin. it is taught in the foundational class of PFAL>
On the wow field you live in a house that shares money , time and life and can work only part time so a child would be an extra burden to succeed in the goal of running classes , although I do know of folks who went wow with as many as five children .
In the corpes you ask other believers to financial support you to give you money to live and pay your tuition another child would mean an increase in money need for those things also time off for having the baby etc. It would make it more difficult and time consuming. I know people who had to leave the corps because of a sick child and to much time off taking care of her,, it is classes and a infant is time comsuming not to metion any health factors that may come up etc.
Remember Mrs Weirwille was able to leave her infant child for many months when they went to India, the way leaders where very serious about what was a priority in life and set an example that it ws indeed the pfal class and teaching others about the news they had.
Who`s angry and doesn`t leave a productive life??? Geeze
Don`thave a good relationship with my uncle???roflmao ...you intimate I am nuts.... consistantly have accused me of misrepresenting the facts.... completely misrepresent my posts........but you are sorry that
I don`t have a good relationship with my uncle??? (I am nuts about him...he is my favoritebtw)
I can address you and it is possible for you to address me in return without attacks mj....
It is also possible to be very angry over the betrayal from those we trusted ... there were so many outragious acts perpetrated on us and those we loved.....sheeshe...it is wierd to me how anybody is NOT to offended by these sanctimonious fools who dared claim that they spoke for the almighty God.
That is a far cry from being
depressed needing drugs....andnot having a great life.
All of those excellent reasons for NOT allowing pregnancy in the corpes wow field were NOT what was taught....
Again mj....It was TAUGHT that GOD demanded that we abort these children...leaving the wow field leaving the way corpes because of refusal to abort was letting Satan win...
THAT is not the same thing at all as the reasons you are giving to justify their demands for complete loyalty to God and his ministry.
As I said chosing to discontinue service and training was an option only if you wished to die spiritually....
p.s....I think mrs. w leaving her infant for three months to travel to India was atrocious....I think she was the first victim of twi leadership pressure....but you are right..it WAS held up as an exemplary example of putting God first....
Just because TWI teaches that abortion is not murder does not mean they have the right to require it - no matter how subtly or overtly - of anyone.
Just because someone signs up for WOW, WC or anything else does not mean they have the big picture or fully know what they are getting themselves into. To assume that makes an @$$....well you know the saying.
Just because other people left or made a different decision when placed in the same situation does not invalidate either decision.
Just because someone thinks they have all the answers does not make those answers correct. I agree with whoever said better to keep your mouth shut....than remove all doubt.
Posted by MJ (Punctuation corrected by me for readabiliy)
quote:My only input is the fact the way believes it IS the word when they say a pregnancy is not a life.
So abortion can be an option in the case
of an unwanted pregnancy without any
consideration of murder or sin.
The fact that TWI or any institution or person believes something to be THE Word does not mean that it is The Word or that folks should blindly accept it and act on it without any considerations. This applies not only to abortion but anything else that a group teaches. But that still does not adresss the entire issue.
Assume for a moment that abortion is not a sin.
Then a married woman gets pregnant while participating in a Way Program like WOW or the Way Corps. It was not necessarily planned. Just one of those things that happens sometimes.
Now comes the TWI leader with Bible in hand (never opened though) and tells this woman that if she does not abort the fetus inside her that she does not love God, is abandoning God, is unloyal to the ministry, will loose God's protection and fellowship, and will die a spiriutal death. He tells her that her commitment to the ministry program is greater than the potential life inside of her.
Remember, we assumed that abortion is not a sin.
The fact that abortion is not a sin does not make the counsel godly, acceptable, or correct.
IT IS NOT ABOUT ABORTION BEING A SIN
It is about the coercive nature of the counsel itself. It is about being given only 2 choices (false dilemma) when there are more. It is about shaming, scaring and manipulating a person with unfounded threats of spiritual death for doing something good - bringing forth a human life. It is about a lack of respect and lack of compassion for another human being. It is pure arrogance ...
quote:Where does it say she will have a greater fruit basket, golden necklace or "whatever" if she chooses to abort an unborn child? ... Where does it say she needs to abort in order to serve God greater and not be hindered?
Nowhere. But please keep in mind we are talking about this in context of the corps commitment, the greatest form of service and honor for the twi believer. The beliefs of twi leaders who believed that the way corps commitment was paramount, godly and sacred, certainly more important than keeping a fetus from an out-of-wedlock action, said those things. I understand it, because of the belief and environment that existed.
It wasn't avaaaaaaaaail able to be a single mother in the corps, unless you went family corps. So those in that situation had 2 choices: get rid of your fruit, your personal property, abort your fetus and stay right with God and the corps, or go home, break your commitment with God and the corps, have your fruit and do your own thing.
I can see a zealous corps leader/coordinator with that rationale. ...
Not just single women...married women had to abort as well if they found themselves in this situation...twi was equal oportunity inthat department. I knew one who`s husband demanded that she do so rather than interfer with both of their corpes commitments.
quote:if no life then no killing houseis a rocking . and Imthe one not getting this ?
I get what you're saying.
twi didn't view removing a fetus (1-2 trimester) as murder, so folks reasoned the fetus was expendable. It wasn't alive, it was "potential" life. Potential life is not life. Certainly not nearly as important as one's corps commitment, which was paramount. Breaking of the corps commitment was a big, huge deal, bigger than a woman getting rid of her fruit, if it got in place of a greater fruit basket.
I'm still waiting for any citation of twi actually saying 3rd trimester was off-limits, or even a second person who heard this, for that matter.
I do think fear motivation is always wrong. In that light, I'm sorry we all had to endure that at one point or another. I think another one of mj's points is that fear motivation is all over ... I agree with that too ... it wasn't just present in twi, it's part of life and part of being with other human beings.
Techniically true, but twi raised it to an art form, and piled it on with thick shovels. Christian organizations are NOT supposed to use fear as a bludgeon over the Christians. Most churches do NOT do this. Why? They understand that men of God ought not to do these things. No, nobody's perfect, but most groups require better of their leaders, that they be better servants.
quote:I have to correct myself. Fear motivation isn't ALWAYS wrong. Remember the stowry of the young child who was told by its mother to stay away from the stove, otherwise you'll get burned? That's fear motivation. So I guess it does exist for a purpose sometimes.
I disagree with you OM. Telling a child to stay away from the stove doesn't usually cause them to be scared of the stove. They usually learn to say "hot" every time they are around one. Fear motivation causes torment in people. Telling someone to abort their child or disappoint God in their commitment is terrible. Telling someone leaving twi will cause them to die is terrible. I know I lived that fear, and it was nothing like my mom telling me to stay away from a hot stove or to not go out and get drunk when I was a teenager. I knew my mom had MY best interest in mind.
I believe abortion is a terrible thing. I don't know at this time where I stand on whether it is murder or not because I still have that verse in Genesis waving around in my mind. And that verse only means what I learned in twi about it. Shame.
Why is having a baby so bad even if you conceived it in the worse case scenario???? A life can be born in to this world, and it can have the opportunity to love God, see His grace and mercy. People have babies unexpectedly every hour of every day, and people learn to see the joy in the situation. I don't understand why twi had to be so treacherous on this issue. Damn, I hope those dummies in Ohio learn a thing or two from us on this issue. But then again R*c* M*gn*ll* taught about it at their last ACS. Glad I didn't drink THAT koolaid.
You know...if GOD were as all hot & bothered about the "Way Korps COMMITMENT™" as the leadership was, don't you think He could have altered the mother's ovulation time juuuust enough for it to avoid all those debbil-spurt sperm? I mean, it's obvious He knows HOW to do it, (*cough*Jesus, Mary*cough*) so how dare He screw with the all-important COMMITMENT™? After all, those Corpsling ladies had all these people,er spiritual partners, praying for, er, believing with them to fulfill their COMMITMENT™, so He should have been FORCED to deliver up on the receiving, cuz we all know it's a Law™...
Or didn't He get that memo from Der Reichstag, er, the Way Corps Office?
Geez, no wonder the ministry went into the crapper. The Way Korps develops this Perfect Training Program For Gin-U-Wine Godlyish-ness, and the Creator of the Universe has to come along and fork the whole thing up!
Way to go, God. If You hadn't dropped the ball, The Way would be Uber Die Welt, er, Over The World™ today!
Gee, thanks, God. Thanks a whole LOT...*
Zix
(*In the wonderful and powerful name of Jesus Christ!)
I am fairly certain there was a time when the order of the "lift list" had "the work of the ministry" before your children. Does anyone remember this, or was it a bad dream I had? IF I am correct, there would be no wonder as to how it could have been conceived. And this exceeded the way corps training program, it was held as the example ministry wide.
I never was wow or corpes I only know of what many many of the folks I introduced to twi tell me so that is why I say I think or I asume. peopel I know very well told me. but i never would do any of those commintments myself>
Im glad your not angry Rascal and your post about your uncle sounded like you do not like him very much carry on .
was twi consel bad? come on I again assumed most at grease spot would think that !! haha of course there is no need to keep telling me that. but I do not think it was not just concerning the issue of abortion I think all things where taken over the top on making sure the ministry was first and foremeost.
I remeber having to pray for "open doors " because the leaders where getting to bogged down with the "work' administration and such of the ministry and not enough time was available for running classes and such.
house: I remember when I was in that those Official Lift List™ sheets had a long list of people to pray & SIT for, but "Yourself" was at the very bottom.
Immediately after POP hit, they changed the sheets and put "Yourself" at the top. Talk about a Band-Aid on a blown-off limb...
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i have asked if this turned into a support group for the sorrow and regret from an abortion apparently it has ok then TWO issues are in this thread now. Also your points were written by me several pages ago about the fornication issues in twi. I do get the fact intimidation was used in twi and as i said intimidation and insult are used in this very thread . yes it is a bad thing when that happens . ok we agree and your just saying what I said about 7 pages ago.
again clarify , I agree people went wow that did not realize some of the doctrine twi taught and had to learn it far away from home in financial straits under pressure and often was forced to leave the field due to circumstances that they may not see coming due to ignorance about twi or what it taught. Rascal ws it not the Wow field not corps this incident happened to you?
I always assumed by the time a person decided to go into the corps , they knew twi they knew the word was what was the most important and they knew enough dealings with the leaders to realize it was a totaly serious commintment, and they certainly no doubt knew what pfal was all about.
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houseisarockin
oldiesman and mj412, because I find things in amongst your words that I agree with completely I continue to read you both in respect to my learning from you. However some of things you both say make my brain hurt and this is one of those.
Where does it say she will have a greater fruit basket, golden necklace or "whatever" if she chooses to abort an unborn child? Their belief system means nothing if not founded on how a child can thwart the actions of a servant of God towards Him! Yes it is their set of rules in order to be a part of the training. Yes it is their right to have rules. Yes many have gone through the training with no horror stories to tell. Yes it is...on and on. BUT whether you believe it murder or not makes no difference! Where does it say she needs to abort in order to serve God greater and not be hindered?
We are talking about a group that stands on the mountain top and proclaims all that they do and live is according the "rightly divided" Word. It is their claim, not mine!
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mj412
Im sorry you do not have a good relationship with your uncle Rascal.
but no it doesnt sound like me to much I have had large huge amounts of responsibility in my life and have taken very good care of myself and others. Im proud of that no doubt.
I can say Im sorry easy ,and mean it when Im sorry and I sometimes am! and I can forgive myself and others for the human condition we all live in .
where mental health would take you? no clue what your talking about here but I know today if a person must battle depression and negative thoughts of guilt and shame that tend to stop a productive happy life medicine and help is available so life can get better. my sister and a dear friend both take pills to help them cope with some of the difficult times they faced in life and inability to cope, both now seek a positive path of good choices .
just an option at times you sound so angry Rascal and it is a fact anger in females is often manifests itself as depression .
You have asked me to not "badger" you yet then you write posts that adrress me personaly and then claim im bothering you when I respond . which way would you like rascal?
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mj412
housea rocking
I do not think the bible states any such thing . I never heard any of those terms in twi fruit basket necklace whatever....
Rascal is claiming she was told something to that effect in consel with another way believer. she would be the one to comment on what Bible verse they may or may not have used concerning her problem.
my only input is the fact the way believes it IS the word when they say a pregnancy is not a life so abortion can be an option in the case of an unwanted pregnancy without any consideration of murder or sin. it is taught in the foundational class of PFAL>
On the wow field you live in a house that shares money , time and life and can work only part time so a child would be an extra burden to succeed in the goal of running classes , although I do know of folks who went wow with as many as five children .
In the corpes you ask other believers to financial support you to give you money to live and pay your tuition another child would mean an increase in money need for those things also time off for having the baby etc. It would make it more difficult and time consuming. I know people who had to leave the corps because of a sick child and to much time off taking care of her,, it is classes and a infant is time comsuming not to metion any health factors that may come up etc.
Remember Mrs Weirwille was able to leave her infant child for many months when they went to India, the way leaders where very serious about what was a priority in life and set an example that it ws indeed the pfal class and teaching others about the news they had.
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rascal
Who`s angry and doesn`t leave a productive life??? Geeze
Don`thave a good relationship with my uncle???roflmao ...you intimate I am nuts.... consistantly have accused me of misrepresenting the facts.... completely misrepresent my posts........but you are sorry that
I don`t have a good relationship with my uncle??? (I am nuts about him...he is my favoritebtw)
I can address you and it is possible for you to address me in return without attacks mj....
It is also possible to be very angry over the betrayal from those we trusted ... there were so many outragious acts perpetrated on us and those we loved.....sheeshe...it is wierd to me how anybody is NOT to offended by these sanctimonious fools who dared claim that they spoke for the almighty God.
That is a far cry from being
depressed needing drugs....andnot having a great life.
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Steve!
Rascal, by now you should have figured out that mj is incredibly ignorant, and extremely proud of it.
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rascal
All of those excellent reasons for NOT allowing pregnancy in the corpes wow field were NOT what was taught....
Again mj....It was TAUGHT that GOD demanded that we abort these children...leaving the wow field leaving the way corpes because of refusal to abort was letting Satan win...
THAT is not the same thing at all as the reasons you are giving to justify their demands for complete loyalty to God and his ministry.
As I said chosing to discontinue service and training was an option only if you wished to die spiritually....
p.s....I think mrs. w leaving her infant for three months to travel to India was atrocious....I think she was the first victim of twi leadership pressure....but you are right..it WAS held up as an exemplary example of putting God first....
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WaywardWayfer
Herein lies the problem.
Just because TWI teaches that abortion is not murder does not mean they have the right to require it - no matter how subtly or overtly - of anyone.
Just because someone signs up for WOW, WC or anything else does not mean they have the big picture or fully know what they are getting themselves into. To assume that makes an @$$....well you know the saying.
Just because other people left or made a different decision when placed in the same situation does not invalidate either decision.
Just because someone thinks they have all the answers does not make those answers correct. I agree with whoever said better to keep your mouth shut....than remove all doubt.
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Goey
Posted by MJ (Punctuation corrected by me for readabiliy)
The fact that TWI or any institution or person believes something to be THE Word does not mean that it is The Word or that folks should blindly accept it and act on it without any considerations. This applies not only to abortion but anything else that a group teaches. But that still does not adresss the entire issue.
Assume for a moment that abortion is not a sin.
Then a married woman gets pregnant while participating in a Way Program like WOW or the Way Corps. It was not necessarily planned. Just one of those things that happens sometimes.
Now comes the TWI leader with Bible in hand (never opened though) and tells this woman that if she does not abort the fetus inside her that she does not love God, is abandoning God, is unloyal to the ministry, will loose God's protection and fellowship, and will die a spiriutal death. He tells her that her commitment to the ministry program is greater than the potential life inside of her.
Remember, we assumed that abortion is not a sin.
The fact that abortion is not a sin does not make the counsel godly, acceptable, or correct.
IT IS NOT ABOUT ABORTION BEING A SIN
It is about the coercive nature of the counsel itself. It is about being given only 2 choices (false dilemma) when there are more. It is about shaming, scaring and manipulating a person with unfounded threats of spiritual death for doing something good - bringing forth a human life. It is about a lack of respect and lack of compassion for another human being. It is pure arrogance ...
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oldiesman
House
Nowhere. But please keep in mind we are talking about this in context of the corps commitment, the greatest form of service and honor for the twi believer. The beliefs of twi leaders who believed that the way corps commitment was paramount, godly and sacred, certainly more important than keeping a fetus from an out-of-wedlock action, said those things. I understand it, because of the belief and environment that existed.It wasn't avaaaaaaaaail able to be a single mother in the corps, unless you went family corps. So those in that situation had 2 choices: get rid of your fruit, your personal property, abort your fetus and stay right with God and the corps, or go home, break your commitment with God and the corps, have your fruit and do your own thing.
I can see a zealous corps leader/coordinator with that rationale. ...
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rascal
Not just single women...married women had to abort as well if they found themselves in this situation...twi was equal oportunity inthat department. I knew one who`s husband demanded that she do so rather than interfer with both of their corpes commitments.
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WordWolf
Techniically true, but twi raised it to an art form, and piled it on with thick shovels. Christian organizations are NOT supposed to use fear as a bludgeon over the Christians. Most churches do NOT do this. Why? They understand that men of God ought not to do these things. No, nobody's perfect, but most groups require better of their leaders, that they be better servants.
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Nottawayfer
I disagree with you OM. Telling a child to stay away from the stove doesn't usually cause them to be scared of the stove. They usually learn to say "hot" every time they are around one. Fear motivation causes torment in people. Telling someone to abort their child or disappoint God in their commitment is terrible. Telling someone leaving twi will cause them to die is terrible. I know I lived that fear, and it was nothing like my mom telling me to stay away from a hot stove or to not go out and get drunk when I was a teenager. I knew my mom had MY best interest in mind.
I believe abortion is a terrible thing. I don't know at this time where I stand on whether it is murder or not because I still have that verse in Genesis waving around in my mind. And that verse only means what I learned in twi about it. Shame.
Why is having a baby so bad even if you conceived it in the worse case scenario???? A life can be born in to this world, and it can have the opportunity to love God, see His grace and mercy. People have babies unexpectedly every hour of every day, and people learn to see the joy in the situation. I don't understand why twi had to be so treacherous on this issue. Damn, I hope those dummies in Ohio learn a thing or two from us on this issue. But then again R*c* M*gn*ll* taught about it at their last ACS. Glad I didn't drink THAT koolaid.
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Zixar
You know...if GOD were as all hot & bothered about the "Way Korps COMMITMENT™" as the leadership was, don't you think He could have altered the mother's ovulation time juuuust enough for it to avoid all those debbil-spurt sperm? I mean, it's obvious He knows HOW to do it, (*cough*Jesus, Mary*cough*) so how dare He screw with the all-important COMMITMENT™? After all, those Corpsling ladies had all these people,er spiritual partners, praying for, er, believing with them to fulfill their COMMITMENT™, so He should have been FORCED to deliver up on the receiving, cuz we all know it's a Law™...
Or didn't He get that memo from Der Reichstag, er, the Way Corps Office?
Geez, no wonder the ministry went into the crapper. The Way Korps develops this Perfect Training Program For Gin-U-Wine Godlyish-ness, and the Creator of the Universe has to come along and fork the whole thing up!
Way to go, God. If You hadn't dropped the ball, The Way would be Uber Die Welt, er, Over The World™ today!
Gee, thanks, God. Thanks a whole LOT...*
Zix
(*In the wonderful and powerful name of Jesus Christ!)
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excathedra
(((((zix)))))
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Trefor Heywood
A brilliant take on the situation Zix!
:D-->
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houseisarockin
I am fairly certain there was a time when the order of the "lift list" had "the work of the ministry" before your children. Does anyone remember this, or was it a bad dream I had? IF I am correct, there would be no wonder as to how it could have been conceived. And this exceeded the way corps training program, it was held as the example ministry wide.
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mj412
I never was wow or corpes I only know of what many many of the folks I introduced to twi tell me so that is why I say I think or I asume. peopel I know very well told me. but i never would do any of those commintments myself>
Im glad your not angry Rascal and your post about your uncle sounded like you do not like him very much carry on .
was twi consel bad? come on I again assumed most at grease spot would think that !! haha of course there is no need to keep telling me that. but I do not think it was not just concerning the issue of abortion I think all things where taken over the top on making sure the ministry was first and foremeost.
I remeber having to pray for "open doors " because the leaders where getting to bogged down with the "work' administration and such of the ministry and not enough time was available for running classes and such.
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Zixar
house: I remember when I was in that those Official Lift List™ sheets had a long list of people to pray & SIT for, but "Yourself" was at the very bottom.
Immediately after POP hit, they changed the sheets and put "Yourself" at the top. Talk about a Band-Aid on a blown-off limb...
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Tom Strange
man... you go away for a few days and look what happens!
everybody please take a snowcone, turn, and walk away very slowly....
those that have ears to hear... have heard...
:D-->
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Zixar
Cute, Tom. Inappropriate, but cute.
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Tom Strange
well Zix... you made me do it!
:D-->
the part of my post that I'd focus on is "those that have ears to hear... have heard"
...my head hurts so much just from reading others beating theirs against the brick wall...
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rascal
Anything to keep this thread going after it has been declared *run it`s course* ;-)
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excathedra
who said it ran its course ?
(((((rascal)))))
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