quote:Can you be more specific? What deception and lies involving abortion are you referring to?
quote from kit i believe:
I had more than one dear friend who had twi sponsored abortions -- and they did it only because they thought they were doing it to be better able to serve the Lord.
**
back to oldies
Individual circumstances vary, but did it ever occur to you that maybe TWI sponsored the abortions because they wanted to offer an option to the woman involved? Give the woman a choice? Why does their (twi's) motive always have to be an evil one?
TWI's motive doesn't have to ALWAYS be evil, only when it was.... get it ?
who the hell is TWI anyway ? let's talk about wierwille and other slobmogs
and here's where you are sneaky oldiesman, "individual circumstances vary, BUT...."
quote:It was a tough choice, given their circumstances, no question; but I suppose that's what happens when one gets pregnant out of wedlock. Bad, sad and unforeseen things happen.
I guess im guessing but your saying all consel that brings God into the equation and or thoughts that He may have an opinon about a situation is evil ?
well most groups do just that in some manner Goey not just christian. that is why people go to them for consel to find out what they think God says concerning an issue .
if you think people should not offer it well ok then .
I reread your point again and think your saying folks should not use God as a threat for harm ....
ok I hear that if that is your point but Goey that is so very very common in our society and certainly not just a twi thing religous wars and murders have been a constant throughout history.
even in the bible its self God was used as a threat to harm another.
quote:And let me tell some of you women it is not only you that get hearts broken at these issues. Some us men have had our hearts broken. We morn and grive also. You dont have the corner on bad advice frome stupid devilish people.
i know that danny. and i also feel that maybe i should not lash out at oldiesman for that very reason but he tries my longsuffering patience
i was reminded though of a dear friend of mine who was married and had more than one abortion because she was so convinced by her spouse (i love him too) who was so convinced by "TWI" that the corps program was the primary will of god
they FINALLY left after she couldn't take it anymore. she wanted their baby and thank god he finally saw the light (well that might not be totally true, they both doubted themselves for YEARS that they didn't do the right thing according to god's matchless primary friggin will)
so now they suffer to THIS DAY because they gave up "potential" breath life babies.... and also because they LEFT the calling of the way corps....
quote:so now they suffer to THIS DAY because they gave up "potential" breath life babies.... and also because they LEFT the calling of the way corps....
Oh my. I am so sorry for these poor people. I hope they know now that they didn't give up on God becaus they left the stupid kork. Talk about bondage twi causes people. We all bought in to it for a time. I pray God heals their wounds from tht crappy organization.
I guess im guessing but your saying all consel that brings God into the equation and or thoughts that He may have an opinon about a situation is evil ?
How in the heck did you get that? Wrong! Read what I wrote no more no less. Stop guessing. Wasn't I plain enough?
quote:well most groups do just that in some manner Goey not just christian. that is why people go to them for consel to find out what they think God says concerning an issue.
Missing the above makes this a strawman. What most groups do is irrelevant.
quote:if you think people should not offer it well ok then.
I don't think that. Your bias seems to be getting in the way of hearing what folks are saying. Remove your blinders for just a moment and read what I actually said.
quote:I reread your point again and think your saying folks should not use God as a threat for harm ....
YES ! Finally! Dang you are thick !
quote:ok I hear that if that is your point but Goey that is so very very common in our society and certainly not just a twi thing religous wars and murders have been a constant throughout history.
Irrelevant! The fact that it was common does not justify it. Society can also be evil.
quote: even in the bible its self God was used as a threat to harm another.
The only place in the Bible that I have seen where God's people were corerced and misled and threatened in the name of God by their "leaders" was with the Phariaees. Jesus called them "vipers" and warned folks beware of their doctrine (counsel). He called them "whited sepulchers" and "hypocrites". He said their father was the devil. Sounds like their counsel was pretty evil to me ...
Edited by Goey
the whole christian gig to me goey is life or death .
ya know if you do not do this no eternal life for you etc.
that is a threat really of not being good enough or eles.
God does pick and chose who He has called to be born again clearly.
the bible speaks alot about enemies and wars and God protecting and folks dying at the hand of the one true God.
I am not into a debate about who is killing who satan and all that i have heard enough storys bible and otherwise, but it is not a huge leap goey to teach that God does have a sense of justice and Jesus has a vengence issue his own self.
do not warp this into Im saying someone deserves to be threatened . but to say God has exspectations of His children to be pleasing to HIM is not an outrageous claim to me personly.
or to many christian or even not christian groups .
compliance is often the norm in any group or eles why belong?
how difficult that becomes for a person to cope with of course will vary . evil? I have said the twi uses the bible as a bullet and I mean what I said like a weapon to hurt another.
intimidation was used in twi, intimidation was used on this thread is it evil ? yes ok . I can agree with that and to say God said it most groups do claim their beliefs are from a God .
I personly do not believe in the busines of personal word from God to a believer from another. CES is very very keen on that . I never realized twi had gotten into it. I have been offered it and walk before something even opens the mouth to tell me what God tells them about me. It is why I left CES. It is insanity to me .
no one has or ever will be allowed to tell me what God told them I should do, if I cant hear it myself then well I do not need to hear it . end of discussion for me, I never realized twi had gotten into the personal prophet line although john lynn and John S. love it to death maybe they did back then as well in the corps.
I have no doubt people can get hurt messing with that business if they chose to believe it is God speaking through another.
I do know of a bible story about a single mom unable to feed her child and God sent somone a man not a husband tho who she gave her last bit of food to and then God supplied for her and her child all through the hard times.
I know of tons of promises He is able to supply all our needs and how folks often had quite awful circumstances and a miricle happens. my life as a single mom actualy can fit in with one of those.
I know the story about how a mom is able to forget her child of her womb yet we are graven on His palms...In Isaiah 49:15,16
Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea they may forget, Yet I will not forget thee.
Behold I have graven thee upon the palsm of my hands: thy walls are continually before me. the blue book the bible tells me so
this idea of the most difficult thing and not being able to undo it sounds like a definition of GUILT and shame to me.
I am not guilty of anything, have I regrets in life ?
yep big huge gapping regrets and wishing things could have been different.. but I can no longer live in the pastand/or get angry which often turns into serious depression for woman .
I let it go I make amends as best I can and I love people alot and allow them to love me and I enjoy every single day of my life .
we are not born into a life of guilt and shame we are taught to feel that way ya know and you can unteach yourself that program and be happy.
mj412, although I appreciate your trying to aid in my finding something, my point which I suspect you missed, is no where in the Word does it back it up. Therefore leaders had 'nothing' when thinking it appropriate to abort a child in order to fulfill a commitment to God. I do not believe in a God that would ask such a thing as to kill a child born or unborn. He did not ask it of Abraham (although he was confused as to that for a bit) and He would not ask it of someone in the way corps training either. Thus it was man's decision to lay that unbelievably cruel rap on their open hearted people.
quote:if no life then no killing houseis a rocking . and Imthe one not getting this ?
I get what you're saying.
twi didn't view removing a fetus (1-2 trimester) as murder, so folks reasoned the fetus was expendable. It wasn't alive, it was "potential" life. Potential life is not life. Certainly not nearly as important as one's corps commitment, which was paramount. Breaking of the corps commitment was a big, huge deal, bigger than a woman getting rid of her fruit, if it got in place of a greater fruit basket.
I do think fear motivation is always wrong. In that light, I'm sorry we all had to endure that at one point or another. I think another one of mj's points is that fear motivation is all over ... I agree with that too ... it wasn't just present in twi, it's part of life and part of being with other human beings.
Well that would sound nicer if twi had taught it that way oldies...but I am telling you ...twi did NOT teach the women who were pregnant that at any point the fetus was alive...NOT untill it took it`s first breath...everything hinged on first breath concept.....their whole belief system and justification for casual destruction of the unborn child was based on this concept......this was the teaching that everyone when the subject has come up that I have talked to after leaving was taught as well....I knew a girl while in....who aborted in the 6 month...it was STILL considered ok...cause it wasn`t alive yet.....shoot even my spouse and I accepted this as truth for many years after leaving as well....I found it a way convenient way to minimalise and forget what one has done.
Has anybody else ever heard the *life after the first tri* teaching?
Mj, my perception of your ideology reminds me of an Uncle I have...he does about anything he pleases......doesn`t apologise...just brightly anounces evey fifteen miniutes to anyone who will listen...*Thats ok....cause God forgives me n so do I* he annoys the fire outta everyone because he never takes any responsibility for his actions or shows any remorse for those he`s hurt....it appears to be an excuse to imbibe in any behavior he wishes.....he is a righteous feeling but very lonely man...but that`s ok because *HE forgives him*.
If thats the direction this *professional mental health* will take me... as you keep intimating some here (me) needs to seek...I`d have to say no thanks...
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excathedra
ok big fat liar here. oldies says
TWI's motive doesn't have to ALWAYS be evil, only when it was.... get it ?
who the hell is TWI anyway ? let's talk about wierwille and other slobmogs
and here's where you are sneaky oldiesman, "individual circumstances vary, BUT...."
ugh
.
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excathedra
major a s s hole alert quote
i can't even get thru that one page
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mj412
I guess im guessing but your saying all consel that brings God into the equation and or thoughts that He may have an opinon about a situation is evil ?
well most groups do just that in some manner Goey not just christian. that is why people go to them for consel to find out what they think God says concerning an issue .
if you think people should not offer it well ok then .
I reread your point again and think your saying folks should not use God as a threat for harm ....
ok I hear that if that is your point but Goey that is so very very common in our society and certainly not just a twi thing religous wars and murders have been a constant throughout history.
even in the bible its self God was used as a threat to harm another.
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excathedra
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excathedra
Edited to correct misspelling of longsuffering.
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excathedra
oh christ i can't even get through page 7
i was reminded though of a dear friend of mine who was married and had more than one abortion because she was so convinced by her spouse (i love him too) who was so convinced by "TWI" that the corps program was the primary will of god
they FINALLY left after she couldn't take it anymore. she wanted their baby and thank god he finally saw the light (well that might not be totally true, they both doubted themselves for YEARS that they didn't do the right thing according to god's matchless primary friggin will)
so now they suffer to THIS DAY because they gave up "potential" breath life babies.... and also because they LEFT the calling of the way corps....
puke
puke
puke
cult
cult
cult
.
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excathedra
i better take a break
i'll leave with this thought
intellectualizing it
and living it
are very very very different
.
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Nottawayfer
Oh my. I am so sorry for these poor people. I hope they know now that they didn't give up on God becaus they left the stupid kork. Talk about bondage twi causes people. We all bought in to it for a time. I pray God heals their wounds from tht crappy organization.
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excathedra
the most difficult thing, i believe, is that you cannot undo what was done....
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excathedra
oh longsuffer you paw
;)--> 
;)--> 
;)--> 
;)--> 
;)--> 
;)-->
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excathedra
yeah so i said i'll leave and take a break
so sue me
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Goey
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mj412
the whole christian gig to me goey is life or death .
ya know if you do not do this no eternal life for you etc.
that is a threat really of not being good enough or eles.
God does pick and chose who He has called to be born again clearly.
the bible speaks alot about enemies and wars and God protecting and folks dying at the hand of the one true God.
I am not into a debate about who is killing who satan and all that i have heard enough storys bible and otherwise, but it is not a huge leap goey to teach that God does have a sense of justice and Jesus has a vengence issue his own self.
do not warp this into Im saying someone deserves to be threatened . but to say God has exspectations of His children to be pleasing to HIM is not an outrageous claim to me personly.
or to many christian or even not christian groups .
compliance is often the norm in any group or eles why belong?
how difficult that becomes for a person to cope with of course will vary . evil? I have said the twi uses the bible as a bullet and I mean what I said like a weapon to hurt another.
intimidation was used in twi, intimidation was used on this thread is it evil ? yes ok . I can agree with that and to say God said it most groups do claim their beliefs are from a God .
I personly do not believe in the busines of personal word from God to a believer from another. CES is very very keen on that . I never realized twi had gotten into it. I have been offered it and walk before something even opens the mouth to tell me what God tells them about me. It is why I left CES. It is insanity to me .
no one has or ever will be allowed to tell me what God told them I should do, if I cant hear it myself then well I do not need to hear it . end of discussion for me, I never realized twi had gotten into the personal prophet line although john lynn and John S. love it to death maybe they did back then as well in the corps.
I have no doubt people can get hurt messing with that business if they chose to believe it is God speaking through another.
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excathedra
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houseisarockin
Where in the Word does it say it is necessary for a woman to give up her unborn child in order to serve God better?
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mj412
house is a rockin I do not know of any .
I do know of a bible story about a single mom unable to feed her child and God sent somone a man not a husband tho who she gave her last bit of food to and then God supplied for her and her child all through the hard times.
I know of tons of promises He is able to supply all our needs and how folks often had quite awful circumstances and a miricle happens. my life as a single mom actualy can fit in with one of those.
I know the story about how a mom is able to forget her child of her womb yet we are graven on His palms...In Isaiah 49:15,16
Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea they may forget, Yet I will not forget thee.
Behold I have graven thee upon the palsm of my hands: thy walls are continually before me. the blue book the bible tells me so
has a taching on it .
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rascal
quote...*the most difficult thing I believe is, that you can`t undo what was done*......absolutely excathedra.
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mj412
this idea of the most difficult thing and not being able to undo it sounds like a definition of GUILT and shame to me.
I am not guilty of anything, have I regrets in life ?
yep big huge gapping regrets and wishing things could have been different.. but I can no longer live in the pastand/or get angry which often turns into serious depression for woman .
I let it go I make amends as best I can and I love people alot and allow them to love me and I enjoy every single day of my life .
we are not born into a life of guilt and shame we are taught to feel that way ya know and you can unteach yourself that program and be happy.
life is good!
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houseisarockin
mj412, although I appreciate your trying to aid in my finding something, my point which I suspect you missed, is no where in the Word does it back it up. Therefore leaders had 'nothing' when thinking it appropriate to abort a child in order to fulfill a commitment to God. I do not believe in a God that would ask such a thing as to kill a child born or unborn. He did not ask it of Abraham (although he was confused as to that for a bit) and He would not ask it of someone in the way corps training either. Thus it was man's decision to lay that unbelievably cruel rap on their open hearted people.
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mj412
houseis a rockin
twi did not believe abortion was killing anything .
it was a medical predcedure to terminate a pregnancy , life began at the moment a baby would take a breath .
if no life then no killing houseis a rocking . and Imthe one not getting this ?
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WordWolf
MJ replied "house is a rockin I do not know of any ."
(Then went on about something unrelated to the thread.)
House replied "No where in the Word does it back it up. Therefore leaders had
nothing when thinking it appropriate to abort a child in order to fulfill a
commitment to God." "Thus it was man's decision to lay that unbelievably
cruel rap on their open-hearted people."
MJ replied "twi did not believe abortion was killing anything. It was a
medical procedure to terminate a pregnancy, life began at the moment a
baby would take a breath. If no life then no killing...and I'm the one not
getting this?"
YES, MJ, you ARE the one not getting this.
First of all, as Goey spent several pages trying to get across to you,
it is evil to use the bludgeon of "Do it or God will hate you" to coerce
people to do things, no matter what the things are.
Second of all is the issue at hand of what the Bible said, what twi said,
and how twi handled it.
Look,
if a group went to you, and leaned on you to switch to only using black ink
pens "otherwise God will be displeased with you", and claimed that if you
didn't switch to black ink, "You're betraying your commitments to God",
that would be evil. (Stupid, too, but that's irrelevant.)
You then have two choices, neither of them good:
A) accept coercion and switch to black ink
B) retain use of blue ink, and live with ostracism from leaders who claim
that you are displeasing God.
Yes, of course you have a choice about which course of action to take.
You can choose to be ostracized, thrown off grounds, and made a pariah. Of
course you can. However, YOU SHOULD NEVER BE PLACED IN THAT POSITION.
Leaders of God's people should not coerce or browbeat God's people in order
to get them to agree. Men of God ought not to do such things.
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WordWolf
Most Christian organizations lean a bit towards the "ounce of prevention" point
of view....
So, if you were going into the corpse or were in the corpse
(or the relative equivalent thereof)
they'd be pretty clear on "NO FOOLING AROUND!", not "NO PREGNANCIES!".
I mean, if Christians are taught and expected to adhere to Biblical standards-
and their teachers and instructors set the example-
there will BE no fooling around (sex). Or, at least, it will be majorly
discouraged, which will cut the numbers down. With no fooling around, there's no
risk of pregnancy. This saves everyone all the stress, money issues and problems
connected with even CONSIDERING abortions.
Instead, an efficient little system operated very quietly, taking women to get
abortions, counselling them to get them, and moving on.
If rationalizations and situational ethics hadn't become the order of the day,
(and leadership hadn't set the example in abusing their offices for sex)
then unwanted pregnancies would have been far rarer.
Now, that leaves us with married couples, who, we presume, ARE fooling around.
In the US, in the 20th century, avoiding pregnancy is NOT a big mystery.
If a couple doesn't want to have kids, then can easily (except for exceptions)
avoid having them. Let's say a married couple did want a kid, and the wife got
pregnant.
Why counsel her to abort the baby (or future baby) rather than carry to term?
The reasons seem to center around the convenience of the organization rather than
anything else. Further, if someone left the corpse, there was SUCH a stigma
painted on them BY corpse. So, abort this baby, or be kicked out of the corpse
and be stigmatized. That's not a sound choice, but it was the ONLY choice
offered too many people in the corpse.
Did they have a choice? By definition, yes.
It was a trick question with 2 bad options, but they could have picked either.
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oldiesman
mj412
I get what you're saying.twi didn't view removing a fetus (1-2 trimester) as murder, so folks reasoned the fetus was expendable. It wasn't alive, it was "potential" life. Potential life is not life. Certainly not nearly as important as one's corps commitment, which was paramount. Breaking of the corps commitment was a big, huge deal, bigger than a woman getting rid of her fruit, if it got in place of a greater fruit basket.
I do think fear motivation is always wrong. In that light, I'm sorry we all had to endure that at one point or another. I think another one of mj's points is that fear motivation is all over ... I agree with that too ... it wasn't just present in twi, it's part of life and part of being with other human beings.
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rascal
Well that would sound nicer if twi had taught it that way oldies...but I am telling you ...twi did NOT teach the women who were pregnant that at any point the fetus was alive...NOT untill it took it`s first breath...everything hinged on first breath concept.....their whole belief system and justification for casual destruction of the unborn child was based on this concept......this was the teaching that everyone when the subject has come up that I have talked to after leaving was taught as well....I knew a girl while in....who aborted in the 6 month...it was STILL considered ok...cause it wasn`t alive yet.....shoot even my spouse and I accepted this as truth for many years after leaving as well....I found it a way convenient way to minimalise and forget what one has done.
Has anybody else ever heard the *life after the first tri* teaching?
Mj, my perception of your ideology reminds me of an Uncle I have...he does about anything he pleases......doesn`t apologise...just brightly anounces evey fifteen miniutes to anyone who will listen...*Thats ok....cause God forgives me n so do I* he annoys the fire outta everyone because he never takes any responsibility for his actions or shows any remorse for those he`s hurt....it appears to be an excuse to imbibe in any behavior he wishes.....he is a righteous feeling but very lonely man...but that`s ok because *HE forgives him*.
If thats the direction this *professional mental health* will take me... as you keep intimating some here (me) needs to seek...I`d have to say no thanks...
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