Thanks anyway mj...but I am not uptight...NOR have I ever tried to make this thread about me...that was yours and oldies doing...I have simply attempted to relate what twi taught me about fetal life and abortion...It appears the only defense I really need is against you and oldies` assault on my integrety and character.
mj, you and om should get together, you would make a great couple - you are so much alike in your inability to relate to other people, to facts, and to reality in general.
We've got 2 ears and one mouth. That would seem to indicate that we should listen twice as much as we talk. So far you've done absolutely no listening whatsoever.
You have an astounding knack for completely missing the point. Why don't you sit back and listen for a while, instead of trying to sound intelligent? and then try and empathize with what people say, or at least try to understand it. And then maybe some of the posters here might have a little more respect for you.
because you think abortion is evil you mix in any consel concerning that as evil I understand that Goey I just do not agree .
twi taught breath life from the pfal class, as tom said maybe some didnt understand how that plays out in a pregnancy .
ok but if a person asks and finds out that is HOW twi feels about when life begins and what is considered murder or not.
AT that point a choice is on the shoulder of the person to believe it or not .
outside of twi people are given the same choice Goey IT is a CHOICE!
I understand where your coming from that abortion is murder and evil etc...
but not all believe that and twi certainly never claimed that !!!!
so the consel is not evil I repeat you think abortion is evil so the conselto have one is evil I GET IT.
but some did not and do not believe that, so the consel would NOT be considered evil any more than if it came from a dr. or a sister or a loved one . understand?
I know you feel strongly about these choices. most do Goey but the fact remains and always will twi taught differently than what you believe as truth always did from the very first class.
many believed them and did heed the consel of that teaching .
they do not think it was evil , you do . it is simply a difference of opinon Goey and as I said I will not debate the right or wrongness of how people chose to believe in this matter it is far to personal and endless really for my taste.
Actually mj...you are right this thread ISN`T about me....but about EVERY believer who was forced into an untenable situation by twi leadership in their demand for obediance in God`s name.
What I had to do in service to God pales compared to many...I know.... it is a bitter bitter pill to swallow when you realise that these choices agonizingly enacted... never were God`s will in the first place..
I say again mj....it does not matter how I feel about abortion...evil not evil fetus alive or dead....it has NO BEARING HERE!!!!
Gawd...the EVIL lies in the fact that though I was willing to take responsibility for that child .... was told that it was contrary to God`s will.
The evil ...once again ...lies in the fact that they insisted that God required this....not corpes rules...not wow field rules...not twi rules required....but GOD
Do you think God was standing by...applauding my decision?....proud of my display of commitment? s`funny but I feel like he might have been right there crying with me, as I in devastation... preformed as required.
it is but life gets better doesnt it ? for most i would say it has. and I am very thankful .
God required I do not know if you read my other post about one LC teling me to give God direct orders for my life. I was marked after I said I am not in a position to demand anything of God.
yes people clearly had egos and power trips .
but it was fed and you may not like this the power trips where fed by those laying at the feet of the leaders and begging for answers and direction from them instead of from the Lord Jesus Christ .
LOL ...yeah Life always gets better after leaving twi...so what? You think that changes the evil wrought...or dims the memory of the anguish endured? or lessens the anger leveled at the people who dared demand what was NOT theirs...in God`s name?
You STILL don't understand the point of the thread.
And it's not about looking for approval in others' eyes, but rather carrying on a conversation, and adding to it rather than pretending to and deceiving yourself in the process.
It's as if most everyone on this thread was talking about cars, and you come along and talk about Japan - well, after all, cars are made there, aren't they?
"that was the choice given to many many folks and that is why many left or where thrown out long gone."
and
"yes people clearly had egos and power trips .
but it was fed and you may not like this the power trips where fed by those laying at the feet of the leaders and begging for answers and direction from them instead of from the Lord Jesus Christ ."
I think we should just all bow down in awe at MJ's incredible ability to hold herself accountable for all her choices and to never ever point fingers at others who may have mislead her, pressured her, or emotionally blackmail her into making them.
Additionally, she had the incredible wisdom to stand her ground and never give into such things or to feed the monsters by laying at their feet.
And finally, she has the spiritual wisdom and ability to seek her answer from the one true Lord and never seek counsel from anyone else.
She is setting such a wonderful example, how dare we criticise her?
Oh? Compassion? What about compassion or understanding? Don't you remember it's The Word, The Word, and nothing but The Word and we have no friends when it comes to The Word. Emotions come and go but The Word stands strong forever.
mj, it is impossible for you to know the full weight of pain & shame for somebody who has gone through this and then realizes. later, the full weight of what she has done. Impossible. I don't understand, because I am a man. But I will tell you, as a man, that I found the weight of the shame crushing.
And I am a very upbeat, eternally optimistic person. Sometimes annoyingly so.
Your casual dismissal of these feelings worries me. I think you're buring many of your significant feelings behind a shrug and a smile. A base my opinion of your emotional distance and inability to relate.
Sound judgmental? Maybe so. It's what I'm seeing...
mj, you said you cried for 20 years because of being kicked out.
So which would you rather rascal had gone through - crying for 20 years for being kicked out? or enduring the pain she's had to endure due to a decision she made back then?
If your posts are any guide, you'll say "neither!".
you assume much about me yet know very little . you do not know what i have experienced in life.
as I said before if this thread and even this forum is about pity and support for victims that never want to explore why they got hurt and want to wallow in the same people pleasing andneed of the approval of others to make a positive choice in life that twi offered.
I can be of little input.
thank you for the great testimony man of a thousand names. I would only add that if a person is still dealing with negative feelings and inability to cope with incidents in life many years after the fact it may indeed be time for a professional check up on what can happen to help you overcome and enjoy life once again.
quote:because you think abortion is evil you mix in any consel concerning that as evil I understand that Goey I just do not agree
When have I ever said that I think abortion is evil? You don't understand that at all. You are presuming to know something that you do not. It's so typical of you.
quote:"...AT that point a choice is on the shoulder of the person to believe it or not .
outside of twi people are given the same choice Goey IT is a CHOICE"
It is not the same choice no matter how you try to make it so. Outside of TWI people are not generally given a choice between spiritual death in giving a life or having God's blessings in taking or preventing one that has already been conceived. People on the outside are not usually told that it is God's will for them to abort a pregnancy and if you don't God is gonna get you. Apples and oranges.
quote:I understand where your coming from that abortion is murder and evil etc...
Again you don't understand squat. I have NEVER said that abortion is murder. Never. Why do you insist on making things up about people?
My point has nothing at all to do with abortion being murder. To paint is so is very disingenous on your part. Again typical of you.
Take abortion out of the equation completely.
Any counsel for any purpose that attempts to motivate a person to do a particualar thing by the threat of the loss God's protection, spiritual death, or other such false consequences is evil. It is evil because it is coersive and motivates by fear and not genuine concern for the individual. Even if this person giving the counsel believes the counsel to be correct - it is still evil. The evil does not magically dissappear because the person giving it is sincere.
quote: so the consel is not evil I repeat you think abortion is evil so the conselto have one is evil I GET IT.
You don't get $hit MJ. You have to disingenuously misrespresent folks to make your feeble points. Repeat your lies and presumptive misrepresentations all you want.
And please will you at least for once address what I actually write and not what your seemingly seared conscience is telling you? Best I can tell you have not actually addressed one single thing that I have written.
as I said before if this thread and even this forum is about pity and support for victims
IT'S NOT
I can be of little input.
THAT MUCH IS PAINFULLY OBVIOUS
thank you for the great testimony man of a thousand names.
ANOTHER DEMONSTRATION OF YOUR OBTUSENESS. HE DIDN'T MEAN IT AS A SHOW OF SUPPORT FOR YOU
I would only add that if a person is still dealing with negative feelings and inability to cope with incidents in life many years after the fact it may indeed be time for a professional check up on what can happen to help you overcome and enjoy life once again.
I THINK I SEE SOME MARBLES ROLLING ON THE FLOOR OFF IN THE CORNER
do ya think the leaders of the outfit would have had any better luck if they would have turned people away and said no cant help you , your on your own kid.
it was a bible group Goey people wanted answers and sought answers from twi.
do I think they should have conseled any one? ha in hindsight I see the lack of awareness of the leaders and the lack of education and see what was lacking but at the time I bought the ticket and rode the ride.
I did seek advice and consel about a number of situations in my life and when what they thought no longer jived with what I thought
after many attempts and hurtful incidents I said no more listening to them .
we all did at one point.
I do not guess folks motives . I do not think all those who tried to help others in twi had evil plotting intent to harm them tho .
I think it was often just what they were taught themselves as right or wrong in life from twi.
my point is how people responded to that advice or "word" or what ever you may call was solely up to them as individuals .
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LG
Not much point in arguing with people who dodge issues, don’t understand what they read, or claim standards they don’t hold to.
rascal,
“It was just plain evil for twi leaders to represent abortion as God’s requirement.”
Yep, by any standard that values normal human desires, affections, and instincts.
“I left with the intentions of marrying the father....”
Exactly the right thing to do, by any Christian or remotely Biblical standard.
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rascal
Thanks anyway mj...but I am not uptight...NOR have I ever tried to make this thread about me...that was yours and oldies doing...I have simply attempted to relate what twi taught me about fetal life and abortion...It appears the only defense I really need is against you and oldies` assault on my integrety and character.
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Steve!
mj, you and om should get together, you would make a great couple - you are so much alike in your inability to relate to other people, to facts, and to reality in general.
We've got 2 ears and one mouth. That would seem to indicate that we should listen twice as much as we talk. So far you've done absolutely no listening whatsoever.
You have an astounding knack for completely missing the point. Why don't you sit back and listen for a while, instead of trying to sound intelligent? and then try and empathize with what people say, or at least try to understand it. And then maybe some of the posters here might have a little more respect for you.
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mj412
because you think abortion is evil you mix in any consel concerning that as evil I understand that Goey I just do not agree .
twi taught breath life from the pfal class, as tom said maybe some didnt understand how that plays out in a pregnancy .
ok but if a person asks and finds out that is HOW twi feels about when life begins and what is considered murder or not.
AT that point a choice is on the shoulder of the person to believe it or not .
outside of twi people are given the same choice Goey IT is a CHOICE!
I understand where your coming from that abortion is murder and evil etc...
but not all believe that and twi certainly never claimed that !!!!
so the consel is not evil I repeat you think abortion is evil so the conselto have one is evil I GET IT.
but some did not and do not believe that, so the consel would NOT be considered evil any more than if it came from a dr. or a sister or a loved one . understand?
I know you feel strongly about these choices. most do Goey but the fact remains and always will twi taught differently than what you believe as truth always did from the very first class.
many believed them and did heed the consel of that teaching .
they do not think it was evil , you do . it is simply a difference of opinon Goey and as I said I will not debate the right or wrongness of how people chose to believe in this matter it is far to personal and endless really for my taste.
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rascal
Actually mj...you are right this thread ISN`T about me....but about EVERY believer who was forced into an untenable situation by twi leadership in their demand for obediance in God`s name.
What I had to do in service to God pales compared to many...I know.... it is a bitter bitter pill to swallow when you realise that these choices agonizingly enacted... never were God`s will in the first place..
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Steve!
Again, mj, you just don't get it.
As someone once said, I think it was Mark Twain, it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
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rascal
I say again mj....it does not matter how I feel about abortion...evil not evil fetus alive or dead....it has NO BEARING HERE!!!!
Gawd...the EVIL lies in the fact that though I was willing to take responsibility for that child .... was told that it was contrary to God`s will.
The evil ...once again ...lies in the fact that they insisted that God required this....not corpes rules...not wow field rules...not twi rules required....but GOD
Do you think God was standing by...applauding my decision?....proud of my display of commitment? s`funny but I feel like he might have been right there crying with me, as I in devastation... preformed as required.
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WaywardWayfer
Steve!
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mj412
yes Rascal
it is but life gets better doesnt it ? for most i would say it has. and I am very thankful .
God required I do not know if you read my other post about one LC teling me to give God direct orders for my life. I was marked after I said I am not in a position to demand anything of God.
yes people clearly had egos and power trips .
but it was fed and you may not like this the power trips where fed by those laying at the feet of the leaders and begging for answers and direction from them instead of from the Lord Jesus Christ .
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rascal
LOL ...yeah Life always gets better after leaving twi...so what? You think that changes the evil wrought...or dims the memory of the anguish endured? or lessens the anger leveled at the people who dared demand what was NOT theirs...in God`s name?
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mj412
I just chose not to blame or be angry Rascal .
I chose to find peace and good things in life , and yes that for me has changed everything .
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Steve!
Oh, mj, that is just so nice.
Why don't you go and play with bits of colored glass now, or spend time tying and untying your shoelaces for laughs?
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mj412
Steve
the approval of others and people pleasing is not something I seek at grease spot or in life .
I am simply me and that is good enough for me .
advice from others is quite worthless at times esp. when it isnt asked for . is that not the point of the thread?
but yet you still feel the need to give it. hmmm.
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Steve!
You STILL don't understand the point of the thread.
And it's not about looking for approval in others' eyes, but rather carrying on a conversation, and adding to it rather than pretending to and deceiving yourself in the process.
It's as if most everyone on this thread was talking about cars, and you come along and talk about Japan - well, after all, cars are made there, aren't they?
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TheManOfa Thousand ScreenNames
Posted by Abigail
"that was the choice given to many many folks and that is why many left or where thrown out long gone."
and
"yes people clearly had egos and power trips .
but it was fed and you may not like this the power trips where fed by those laying at the feet of the leaders and begging for answers and direction from them instead of from the Lord Jesus Christ ."
I think we should just all bow down in awe at MJ's incredible ability to hold herself accountable for all her choices and to never ever point fingers at others who may have mislead her, pressured her, or emotionally blackmail her into making them.
Additionally, she had the incredible wisdom to stand her ground and never give into such things or to feed the monsters by laying at their feet.
And finally, she has the spiritual wisdom and ability to seek her answer from the one true Lord and never seek counsel from anyone else.
She is setting such a wonderful example, how dare we criticise her?
Oh? Compassion? What about compassion or understanding? Don't you remember it's The Word, The Word, and nothing but The Word and we have no friends when it comes to The Word. Emotions come and go but The Word stands strong forever.
-->
Edited by The Man of a Thousand Screen NamesLink to comment
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TheEvan
mj, it is impossible for you to know the full weight of pain & shame for somebody who has gone through this and then realizes. later, the full weight of what she has done. Impossible. I don't understand, because I am a man. But I will tell you, as a man, that I found the weight of the shame crushing.
And I am a very upbeat, eternally optimistic person. Sometimes annoyingly so.
Your casual dismissal of these feelings worries me. I think you're buring many of your significant feelings behind a shrug and a smile. A base my opinion of your emotional distance and inability to relate.
Sound judgmental? Maybe so. It's what I'm seeing...
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Steve!
mj, you said you cried for 20 years because of being kicked out.
So which would you rather rascal had gone through - crying for 20 years for being kicked out? or enduring the pain she's had to endure due to a decision she made back then?
If your posts are any guide, you'll say "neither!".
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mj412
the evan
you assume much about me yet know very little . you do not know what i have experienced in life.
as I said before if this thread and even this forum is about pity and support for victims that never want to explore why they got hurt and want to wallow in the same people pleasing andneed of the approval of others to make a positive choice in life that twi offered.
I can be of little input.
thank you for the great testimony man of a thousand names. I would only add that if a person is still dealing with negative feelings and inability to cope with incidents in life many years after the fact it may indeed be time for a professional check up on what can happen to help you overcome and enjoy life once again.
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mj412
cry meaning upset not feeling right about the situation searching for a peace about it..wondering distracted by it.
what rascal choses to do is only up to Rascal Steve I seldom give advice to anyone in life.
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excathedra
i'm on page 4-1/2
why are you so obsessed with "women" type issues oldies ?
oh okay, go ahead say why abortion and rape are not women issues dah dah dah, but i don't buy your motives
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Goey
It is not the same choice no matter how you try to make it so. Outside of TWI people are not generally given a choice between spiritual death in giving a life or having God's blessings in taking or preventing one that has already been conceived. People on the outside are not usually told that it is God's will for them to abort a pregnancy and if you don't God is gonna get you. Apples and oranges.
Again you don't understand squat. I have NEVER said that abortion is murder. Never. Why do you insist on making things up about people?My point has nothing at all to do with abortion being murder. To paint is so is very disingenous on your part. Again typical of you.
Take abortion out of the equation completely.
Any counsel for any purpose that attempts to motivate a person to do a particualar thing by the threat of the loss God's protection, spiritual death, or other such false consequences is evil. It is evil because it is coersive and motivates by fear and not genuine concern for the individual. Even if this person giving the counsel believes the counsel to be correct - it is still evil. The evil does not magically dissappear because the person giving it is sincere.
You don't get $hit MJ. You have to disingenuously misrespresent folks to make your feeble points. Repeat your lies and presumptive misrepresentations all you want.And please will you at least for once address what I actually write and not what your seemingly seared conscience is telling you? Best I can tell you have not actually addressed one single thing that I have written.
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Steve!
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mj412
So goey
do ya think the leaders of the outfit would have had any better luck if they would have turned people away and said no cant help you , your on your own kid.
it was a bible group Goey people wanted answers and sought answers from twi.
do I think they should have conseled any one? ha in hindsight I see the lack of awareness of the leaders and the lack of education and see what was lacking but at the time I bought the ticket and rode the ride.
I did seek advice and consel about a number of situations in my life and when what they thought no longer jived with what I thought
after many attempts and hurtful incidents I said no more listening to them .
we all did at one point.
I do not guess folks motives . I do not think all those who tried to help others in twi had evil plotting intent to harm them tho .
I think it was often just what they were taught themselves as right or wrong in life from twi.
my point is how people responded to that advice or "word" or what ever you may call was solely up to them as individuals .
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excathedra
some people's motives shine thru
i'm done with this thread for now. never made it to the end of page 4, maybe when i have the stomach for it
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