I know that VPW targeted people with sexual abuse to be able to sexually abuse them himself. The means to discover the abuse was manifest in things like "Birth to the corps" papers. People would bare their souls then be called into the coach to be "healed" of their pasts only to have Moggie fondle them....
Many specifics with common threads.... Abuse, using people and destroying lives..
However, in my situation, yeah, I WAS raised in the Cleaver family, the Catholic version. Around the time I was getting involved in TWI, we had a family tragedy, the details of which I don't want to go into. But, my entire Catholic family (parents and grandparents included, as well as aunts, uncles, cousins) got inovolved with TWI. And I know of other families like us.
The main attraction for us, was the idea that we could find answers in the bible. That we could read, understand, find comfort, etc. This was a novel idea for us Catholics. We liked the home/family fellowship, praying together, studying together and things like that. We came together as a family, instead of being split apart like so many were.
It took a while, but once we saw the hypocrisy of the organization, and that many of the ideas promoted by TWI, as in the "law of believing," among others, just plain didn't work, we left. All of us. It's as simple as that, really, for me. And most of my family members were not corps people, or leaders of any kind in TWI. They simply enjoyed the fellowship. (Of course, they had great people like Al Poole, and Sudo among others in their fellowship.)
So the experience was a really positive one for the most part, for us. If I (and a couple of other family members) hadn't gone in the corps and seen some stuff up close and personal, we would've remained blissfully ignorant of the sordid underbelly of the organization. At least til the Poop anyway. :D--> Then, it became obvious there were megaproblems, and everybody left and went to church.
I think there were lots of other families like us. I know of a few. But then again, there were people who became alienated from their families, and got all whacked out. Go figure.
The experience was so varied, for so many. I think it's foolish to make to many generalizations, and assume that there's one answer for everybody. Not that anyone is doing that....
quote:I think it's foolish to make to many generalizations, and assume that there's one answer for everybody. Not that anyone is doing that....
Of course with my post right above yours talking in "general" terms it surely does seem to be directed at my post so I would like to respond. I am glad you shared your story as that represents a group I did not...
I was answering her question of how we "the questioning baby boomers" got to a point where we stopped questioning.
I am sure there are some other general answers for groups I did not represent. As I said, I was trying to answer some general reasons why "the questioning baby boomers" stopped asking questions.
I am sure the nice families of that era had some general things that brought them into TWI as do the addicts or those seeking deliverance from disease.
So, just for the record these are some general things I saw, I am not claiming them to be all the general reasons. Then, as I said, there were very specific things, if I went into all of them it would have to be each person giving their story. It would be impossible to do that.
And a big YES to
quote: The main attraction for us, was the idea that we could find answers in the bible. That we could read, understand, find comfort, etc. This was a novel idea for us Catholics. We liked the home/family fellowship, praying together, studying together and things like that. We came together as a family, instead of being split apart like so many were.
There were whole families just looking for answers, a way to understand the Bible and comfort. Funny, but a lot of them were Catholics or whole Catholic families. I am glad you added that. :)-->
I believe for me, that my failure to question and investigate was due, in part, to my affection and bonds to the individuals within TWI. I really enjoyed their company and I knew that to push the subject would alienate me from these people.
Now I find myself very wary of relationships. Especially of anyone who wants me to go to church/organization meeting with them. Red flags seem to pop up regularly. I am begininging to wonder if all these red flags are real or just imagined.
MY3cents really put it togerther for you. Its a journey within, to find out why. Alot of the topics at GS handle your question in different ways. Read all that you can and what resinates with you, put in your pocket. With time it will come together for you. But most importantly is...be kind to yourself. For years I beat myself up for being so valnerable. Then I realized TWI kept me alive when I was at my wits end. That's MY story. So take your time and enjoy the fellowship of GS along the way.
When I first left I could not be involved with anyone. IT became crazy. An old gal pal from TWI wanted to get together and I could not even handle that...
I kept thinking if we meet at a stop sign in separate cars, pointed in different directions then I might be able to speak with her through our open windows.
Commitments killed me. Anything where I had to "sit" in a class almost made me freeze at the door.
It is a journey to yourself.
But when you initially poised your question, I pictured you in the gang with whom I hung. We were always questioning things. We questioned authority, the war, why the stars seemed to hang in the sky, the possibilities were endless… Of course, much like the cast of that 70’s show much discussion was held around “billows of smoke” as we were searching. We did not want to end up like our parents, we could identify with Carly Simon’s “stayed in bed all morning just to past the time… There’s something wrong here there can be no denying…” Or in many Dylan tunes. When the Beatles went on their search and left behind the pop sound of “Eight days of Week” for the more physcodellic sounds of “Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds”… We the generation of the late 60’s and early 70’s were a questioning, rebellious group.
The specifics of how we wound up on this “magical mystery tour” maybe different but the bottom line was we were all looking for something and thought we may have found it in TWI.
Why, once we got in did we stop asking questions? Intimidation, fear, we bought into the Moggie, obedience, fear, not wanting to loose friendships, not wanting to be the trouble maker – on and on the list goes….
The important thing to do is to find yourself again, love yourself and heal.
My3Cents told my story for me, he was in Rye, I was in the San Francisco Bay area.
I was 14 in 1971 when I went to my first twi fellowship, THE WAY PRESENTS in Oakland, 15 by the time I got involved whole heartedly in fellowships (they weren't even called twigs yet.)
Gosh, it is hard to understand what a 14 year old thinks, feels, wants out of life. I think it was the ideal of a mission....something that many were called to do...but few had answered that call. I wanted to help, to make a difference, leave my world just a little bit better than I had found it.
Why did I stay? Oh, NOW THAT is a totally different question.
I always wanted to understand the bible and to know God. The Way posed as a group that could help me do both.
I was impressed at my first fellowship by the confidence of the people there, that intrigued me.
During the PFAL class Wierwille does a pretty good job of baiting the hook for those who want to understand the bible by demonstrating how to read what is written. He teaches basic keys to understanding the bible: read what is written, read the context, understand the culture, fundamentals of Greek and Hebrew.
He started out so simple and basic. It was so self-evident when you just read the bible. He built a foundation of trust early in the class and gradually, oh so subtly introduces things that are not clearly written in the "text". Before you know it definitions and whole theologies are springing from thin air, or at least from very shaky foundations. But I hardly noticed.
Mixed in with the "intellectual" approach was pure emotion: it's "Christ in you!" and ended with the crescendo of speaking in tongues out loud in that chaotic group setting. Well that just sealed my fate.
quote:What do you think was the lure for the Catholics?
For me, as I said above, I was confronted by someone who would become family and who was also raised Catholic. She ''showed'' me that everything, and I mean everything I was taught, raised with, believed in was a huge facade, a big lie! I remember my 5 year old nephew telling me: ''Jesus wasn't born on Christmas, that's a big fat lie!''
So, here I was, rebelling against Mom and Dad, questioning everything I'd ever believed was true about God, and these sweet, loving people at my first twig just seemed to understand everything I was going through. I was being accepted, something I never really had, even from my Mom and Dad. THAT was my hook! Acceptance and love.
To this day I struggle with acceptance and self confidence because, like most of us here, we were abused as children. In my case, sexually, emotionally and physically.
-"I have always wondered why I did not investigate (question) more deeply the teachings/mandates/rules I accepted, while within TWI."- NLBT
NLBT,
I also wonder why me or anybody involved just never ever or barely even conveyed a slight notion TWI's poison, and if they did, they were quickly dismissed, swept under the carpet, kicked off the field, and were torn apart with words to not associate with "them". And that's a breif summary. :)-->
There are many a wonderful reply here this your thread and I can relate to those words. I have read them all.
I was searching for the TRUTH. I was involved with Bull St. Baptist Church in Savannah, Ga. during my upbringing. Just the words Bull St. should have told me a few things the church. :D-->
Long story short, Beatles, Led, The Who, and etc... I began QUESTioning my relationship with God and the Bong and Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds. Got involved with Eastern religions, after all - Christianity is certainly "Eastern"!!! So I figured, "What's a few more under my belt?"
Zen Buddhism, Tibetion Book of the Dead, Transcendental Meditation, Bahagavid Gita (sp), Kryia Yoga and that is where I found my niche. Kryia Yoga! I was committed to the writings of Paramahansa Yogananda because he talked about the Bible. One year full of home study courses. Then I met the WOW's. Then I was told I was full of sh$t my beliefs in Kryia Yoga and was involved in devil spirits. Hmmm... I had quit smoking, quit drugs, living a healthy life style of veggies and white fish... go figure.
I figured i must turn BACK to the Bible and these people had the answers. Yepper i figured that awrity. Took the class. That was in '75. I was 21. Finally firgured a few more things... And in '95 i left and was told i was pozzezzed. Hmmm... figure that one.
In PA, almost all my classes were filled with Catholics and "cool" searchers of the era.
What do you think was the lure for the Catholics?
Poor catechesis.
I remember when I was "in," I repeatedly said, "if the denominational churches were doing their job, there would be no need for TWI." I still say that this statement is true.
To see a miracle happen right before your eyes(speaking in tongues), is pretty convincing that those teaching you--are right on!
After that noone questioned much of anything.
JESUS H. CHRIST!!! That was a MIRACLE?????? Why that's right up there with the Catholic notion that the priest changes ordinary bread and wine into the literal body and blood of Christ is a miracle, especially when there's NO MANIFESTATION that anything miraculous took place!
I've seen better miracles at a good magic show! :D-->
A 24 incher clear bong filled with ice and a couple crimpled Jamaican buds in the bowl, a bic lighter and a little Led Zep II, or say hum sum Pink Floyd while sitting on some worn old comfy couches. Well, the memories are so enticing the temptation to perform such a stream of smoke that seemed to never end why not try it again? But the legal ramifications kinda spoil the fun eh... but it didn't back then eh... hmm .... might just go to the novelty store and see what might be in store. Hey Mon, you can put your weed in here man...dig. I still have some vintage clothes from that era in primo condition (75 76). Miss them Nehru shirts. :D-->
***
But, ennyhoots, I see the "fear factor" of being introduced to TWI via "devil spirit" threats, even though I was in the most wonderful of health mental and physical, but yet that subtle slap of words a lie repeated by those WOWs via HQ, woke me up to fear that I might just be in with that crowd of Eastern religion that was not at all "Christ -Like". But after I became involved with TWI, many wondered the knowLEDGE i acquired these "false religions". Quite a dance of paradox's a mind in search. Why did I not speak up and out? Intimidated by TWI, I spoke inbetween the lines and became a facade of beliefs in my soul of heart. Another side of the coin and all that is etched within "its" production "its" manufacture of religion "its god" to dominate people in this world. In this world, this time of presence, always the present, eternity is always a present now, that does have "hope" to be sane our thoughts the "truth". But hence beware.
Rok On,
Song
a Cat Stevens tune comes to mind...
(edited because lines "_______" were too long and made the page wide... whoops... thanks (((Dot))) for making mention...
Not that further comment is needed...everyone has pretty well covered all the bases, mind-control,brainwashing techniques, the fear factor, the neediness of us for love and family, etc etc- the "feeling" of finally finding the one true way into God's good graces. I left twi, then an offshoot, when I left the abusive husband, then did not even discuss or try to find out what had become of friends, or twi. I did as of this year, 12 years later. If the leaving is recent NLBT, then you have my utmost respect and admiration, because as of the fog years of my departure, things where still somewhat sane as long as your state was not too near ohio. I am beyond sickened at the things I have discovered by "lurking" about these and other pages. Hang in there, because you post seems a bit a cry of "oh man, how did I let this happen" with a touch of despair thrown in. In my own exp. (which is all anyone really knows, maybe) I have finally gotten my act and all else together, to a degree that I am comfortable with, but after mucho work. I don't post much, but sometimes feel unable to restrain myself!
I remember how I started going to a Way fellowship. I was laid up in a hospital in traction and I read the gospels out of the Gideons Bible that was there in the drawer. And I thought..."wow this Jesus guy went through a lot of ****! I guess I don't have it that bad." But, I was looking for answers, too. So a verse in Luke kept popping back up in my mind and I was driven to understand why this was happening so the thought came to me why don't I go to one of these Twigs that I had been turning down invites to. So I went. Then teacher came out and it being her second live teaching ever started out her teaching with that exact verse from Luke. I don't even remember the rest of that teaching because I was so flabbergasted since I had told no one about that verse popping in my mind cuz they would have thought me crazy! I got goosebumps and another thought popped into my mind at that moment "well, you've been searching for me and here is the place". That's what 'hooked' me. :D-->
NewLeafBetterTree
quote:So many of the posters here at GS are questioning and investigive individuals. I think of myself the same way. I came from a culture quite counter to TWI. My politics were liberal. I had gay friends(and this was the 70's). I was curious about life and open to new ideas, but within two years I had gone 180 degrees in the other direction.
I have always wondered why I did not investigate (question) more deeply the teachings/mandates/rules I accepted, while within TWI. Really, after reading so many counter points that prove the falicy and/or plagerizy(sp?) of many of TWI's teachings/mandates/rules (that were so easy to discover), why, did I not question or investigate further, when I first took PFAL? Why, did I not question later, when the teachings/mandates/rules become more questionable? I could have; The answers were not deeply buried. Yes, you could say the internet, with all its info, exposed TWI. But many of us discovered the truth about TWI by TWI's own actions; Why did we discover the foundational error only after we left?
In my own experience when I took the PFAL class in 1980 I was 23 yrs old. Groovy days, I must admit! But,I must have taken a different one than others because if I remember correctly the first four sessions were taught so that I could read the Bible for myself and understand it better than I did before. It was empatically stated "Chapter and Verse please". These sessions were to give us many tools needed to question the rest of the sessions. I know I did. I had a blast questioning them. The law of believing as taught had to be somewhat bogus because I had a fear of getting murdered after dark whenever I was outside and it never happened. (Later suddenly delivered of that without much effort on my part. I don't even remember praying anything but the Lord's prayer at that time.) Ha! That's all I was bothered by....mostly I learned how to pray...believe. Wow...who was even teaching this at the time? No one I had access to anyway...Dr always pointed out books where he go the stuff so I never felt he was taking credit or conning me into anything. Before even taking the class I spoke in tongues the first time simply by reading The New Dynamic Church on it and praying to God all day at a park on a summer day. At session 12 I felt funny about SIT on queue and I always questioned that one.
shellon
quote: For me, personally, I questioned in plenty of time, but jumped in anyway because of love. Then before I knew what happened, that love had become a marriage and each layer got piled on top of the others and I was bound by vows and not being willing to have my daughter lose her daddy. But that's another talk show.
I think that this statement raises the point that most of us were very busy in life. We wanted it all to be 100% correct from the start cuz we didn't have time to really do any serious questioning/answering work on it ourselves. So we just took it all in as Gospel truth. My experience was that it was always presented as 'check it yourself'. After all, VPW went from Trinitarian to One God on his own by checking it out. That sort of won my trust and formed an opinion that he was no charlatan. I even took the time to read his doctoral thesis on the failure of the overseas missions represented by his denomination. He was blacklisted and therefore an underdog after that thesis which he presented before his superiors and consequently defrocked because of it (He said)But I checked the dates and they match his story. And because of this he was very careful with the ministry as it grew. He saw the potential for tyranny happening. He insisted, for instance, that no centralized address book of Twig coordinators was to be kept at HQ. He wished for no central control...but control only on the Twig/Branch level where the people had the say-so on things. HQ was only to have a 'supportive' role..such as the classes and bookstore. This is why LCM's loyalty letter was so 'devilish'. It was a power grab from HQ to control the TC's. And it was so obvious to most..can't say all unfortunately.
To say that TWI brainwashed people and conned and manipulated in the early days is unfounded and this is why. It couldn't happen with so many individuals involved to pull something like that off. I say that when the staff were afraid to speak up so as not to lose their comfy jobs with benefits is when things went unchecked by most. Doctor feared this would happen. When I went into the Corps I did so not for my glory (although that was a motivation for others) but to have the time to continue questioning and fine-tuning my knowledge. I had access to the library which carried almost everything by anybody who ever wrote about the Bible or Denominations and also had every Sunday teaching and every Way Corps research paper written. That proved easily enough to me that 'questioning' was encouraged greatly by the ministry and body of leaders. By my last year in the Corps (1987) they had pretty much shut down the Research Dept because of the blatant errors of Athletes of the Spirit. Someone obviously was speaking up...but too little too late seems to be the best comment on that.
I also had the privilege of sitting through Dr's Advance Class, as 'transcriptor' several times and the overwhelming encouragement by him to search the scriptures to improve on his work was there. Perhaps viewing it so often made it more obvious to me. The one blatant problem I saw was in the idea of 'excellor sessions' which were hit and miss because no one is going to manifest power by rote or because its on the class schedule, but I digress. Later, I had the experience of ministering instant healing to an elderly man who had a heart attack while riding his moped. I simply approached him with a heart of compassion and used Jesus' name as I was taught in the Advanced Class. If VPW was a charlatan later is another fact but, that charlatan's teaching saved that man's life for my hands were there but so was our Lord because of it.
So I thank God that I had the time to study the Word in an indepth fashion. The biggest problems I saw arising was as old as the hills. We are all individuals. If you have 3 people witness an accident...you'll have 3 different versions of what happened. I believe that is true here. I loved the ROA and other gatherings....not so much for the family atmosphere although I loved that too. But, for all the times spent just sitting with a total stranger by a camp fire or somewhere and totally empathize with them or them with me and we could pray about something together with our own love and believing to God the Father directly. Awesome! Not to say that doesn't happen in other ministries...thank God it does. But for me.....Who taught me to do that? Dr Wierwille did anyways. Who taught me it was "The Word, the Word, the Word; and nothing but the Word"? That doesn't sound like the rhetoric one gets from those trying to con people. Now, if Dr was a Bible salesman...perhaps I would have walked away! Besides...we don't seem to complain much when our TV sets are oozing out brainwash techniques to buy their products or to vote for them or the teachers hounding our kids to nag the parents over 2nd-hand smoke...I certainly am not discounting some of the awful things that has happened to people. I feel it deeply being a fellow member of the One Body of Christ. Thank God that our hearts can be healed.
But,I think we are over thinking some of this and its mostly tainted with our hurt. People cause us hurt don't they? Not whole ministries or whole groups. Individual people hurt us...whoever they are.
The original Way Tree was set up much like our political system in the US is supposed to work. For the people, by the people, of the people. The people are what screwed up the Way. Dr's original thoughts were to 'protect' the people so those that were closest to the Trustees had the responsibility to confront and reprove. In principle that should work but when people are afraid to then it stops working right. People are human...they are going to be afraid...Every single congregation of believers ever and presently in operation all have the same potential to screw up and as history proves...it ALWAYS happens. Why? That is the real question and the real answer is because the devil is 'the god of this world' who blinds the minds. We have forgotten to blame Satan and we have played right into his hand by blaming people. "...for we wrestle not against flesh and blood" It is a challenge not to let the Adversary get us playing on the flesh and blood level. Yes, people that hurt other people should be held accountable. Again, I truly feel for the hurt people have gone through.
Let's face it...we are getting hurt all the time by people...whether its the ministry of people or people at work or in society...its still people. And we grow cautious and wiser through experience. But, we needn't be defeated by that. Remember it says "lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you". This is what is our enemy now...bitterness.
God through Jesus Christ went through great pains to teach us about 'forgiveness'. There is no marriage or relationship today anywhere that would survive without forgiveness. We are practicing it all the time. Can we excercise our spiritual right and command to forgive these individuals from our past? So, that we might move on in love and sensitivity towards others? I know I'm preaching to the choir..but it still should be said again and again until we drive out everyone whose still in pain and full of rage over someone else's devilishness. Let God judge that person so we can be free of bitterness.
I also took a little class by Walter Cummins called the Renewed Mind. I remember in that class a little exercise that was taught..."On Guard" and 'prove all things; hold fast to that which is good'. Or are we holding fast to those things that are evil? Sure many things needed to be rightly divided about VPs classes but at least it was the 'best' being taught at the time by people who 'questioned' their denominational teaching. This is why we were taught that we were "the best"..."that God has in our day and time" is the rest of that quote. and it was because no one had so far attempted what Dr did...question.
I think of it like this. Einstein spent his life coming up with E=MC squared. Now a younger person can learn that and spend his yrs building further upon that. Why can't we hold fast to that which is good and build on it with all thankfulness that we got something accurate to build upon? Its the same teaching on prayer I learned that works to get me through the hurt that was received not only from the ministry but from all the other hurts that the rest of the world seems to have no qualms about dishing out...thank God.
I know I have rambled here...but I too have been stirred by these postings. Every joint supplieth...I see people like leaking cisterns here with water mixed with the mud of anger and bitterness. As a joint or member I am stirred to help encourage you to take Father's prescription to clean us by just going to the pure waters of the fountainhead to rid ourselves of the bitter waters.
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Specifically?
I know that VPW targeted people with sexual abuse to be able to sexually abuse them himself. The means to discover the abuse was manifest in things like "Birth to the corps" papers. People would bare their souls then be called into the coach to be "healed" of their pasts only to have Moggie fondle them....
Many specifics with common threads.... Abuse, using people and destroying lives..
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ex10
Good observations, Dot.
However, in my situation, yeah, I WAS raised in the Cleaver family, the Catholic version. Around the time I was getting involved in TWI, we had a family tragedy, the details of which I don't want to go into. But, my entire Catholic family (parents and grandparents included, as well as aunts, uncles, cousins) got inovolved with TWI. And I know of other families like us.
The main attraction for us, was the idea that we could find answers in the bible. That we could read, understand, find comfort, etc. This was a novel idea for us Catholics. We liked the home/family fellowship, praying together, studying together and things like that. We came together as a family, instead of being split apart like so many were.
It took a while, but once we saw the hypocrisy of the organization, and that many of the ideas promoted by TWI, as in the "law of believing," among others, just plain didn't work, we left. All of us. It's as simple as that, really, for me. And most of my family members were not corps people, or leaders of any kind in TWI. They simply enjoyed the fellowship. (Of course, they had great people like Al Poole, and Sudo among others in their fellowship.)
So the experience was a really positive one for the most part, for us. If I (and a couple of other family members) hadn't gone in the corps and seen some stuff up close and personal, we would've remained blissfully ignorant of the sordid underbelly of the organization. At least til the Poop anyway.
:D--> Then, it became obvious there were megaproblems, and everybody left and went to church.
I think there were lots of other families like us. I know of a few. But then again, there were people who became alienated from their families, and got all whacked out. Go figure.
The experience was so varied, for so many. I think it's foolish to make to many generalizations, and assume that there's one answer for everybody. Not that anyone is doing that....
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Dot Matrix
Of course with my post right above yours talking in "general" terms it surely does seem to be directed at my post so I would like to respond. I am glad you shared your story as that represents a group I did not...
I was answering her question of how we "the questioning baby boomers" got to a point where we stopped questioning.
I am sure there are some other general answers for groups I did not represent. As I said, I was trying to answer some general reasons why "the questioning baby boomers" stopped asking questions.
I am sure the nice families of that era had some general things that brought them into TWI as do the addicts or those seeking deliverance from disease.
So, just for the record these are some general things I saw, I am not claiming them to be all the general reasons. Then, as I said, there were very specific things, if I went into all of them it would have to be each person giving their story. It would be impossible to do that.
And a big YES to
There were whole families just looking for answers, a way to understand the Bible and comfort. Funny, but a lot of them were Catholics or whole Catholic families. I am glad you added that.
:)-->
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ex10
gotcha, Dot.
;)-->
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Dot Matrix
In PA, almost all my classes were filled with Catholics and "cool" searchers of the era.
What do you think was the lure for the Catholics?
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NewLeafBetterTree
Many good and interesting responses.
I believe for me, that my failure to question and investigate was due, in part, to my affection and bonds to the individuals within TWI. I really enjoyed their company and I knew that to push the subject would alienate me from these people.
Now I find myself very wary of relationships. Especially of anyone who wants me to go to church/organization meeting with them. Red flags seem to pop up regularly. I am begininging to wonder if all these red flags are real or just imagined.
NewLeaf
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imbus
Leaf,
MY3cents really put it togerther for you. Its a journey within, to find out why. Alot of the topics at GS handle your question in different ways. Read all that you can and what resinates with you, put in your pocket. With time it will come together for you. But most importantly is...be kind to yourself. For years I beat myself up for being so valnerable. Then I realized TWI kept me alive when I was at my wits end. That's MY story. So take your time and enjoy the fellowship of GS along the way.
WELCOME
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Dot Matrix
Leaf
When I first left I could not be involved with anyone. IT became crazy. An old gal pal from TWI wanted to get together and I could not even handle that...
I kept thinking if we meet at a stop sign in separate cars, pointed in different directions then I might be able to speak with her through our open windows.
Commitments killed me. Anything where I had to "sit" in a class almost made me freeze at the door.
It is a journey to yourself.
But when you initially poised your question, I pictured you in the gang with whom I hung. We were always questioning things. We questioned authority, the war, why the stars seemed to hang in the sky, the possibilities were endless… Of course, much like the cast of that 70’s show much discussion was held around “billows of smoke” as we were searching. We did not want to end up like our parents, we could identify with Carly Simon’s “stayed in bed all morning just to past the time… There’s something wrong here there can be no denying…” Or in many Dylan tunes. When the Beatles went on their search and left behind the pop sound of “Eight days of Week” for the more physcodellic sounds of “Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds”… We the generation of the late 60’s and early 70’s were a questioning, rebellious group.
The specifics of how we wound up on this “magical mystery tour” maybe different but the bottom line was we were all looking for something and thought we may have found it in TWI.
Why, once we got in did we stop asking questions? Intimidation, fear, we bought into the Moggie, obedience, fear, not wanting to loose friendships, not wanting to be the trouble maker – on and on the list goes….
The important thing to do is to find yourself again, love yourself and heal.
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imbus
Well said Dot!
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Radar OReilly
My3Cents told my story for me, he was in Rye, I was in the San Francisco Bay area.
I was 14 in 1971 when I went to my first twi fellowship, THE WAY PRESENTS in Oakland, 15 by the time I got involved whole heartedly in fellowships (they weren't even called twigs yet.)
Gosh, it is hard to understand what a 14 year old thinks, feels, wants out of life. I think it was the ideal of a mission....something that many were called to do...but few had answered that call. I wanted to help, to make a difference, leave my world just a little bit better than I had found it.
Why did I stay? Oh, NOW THAT is a totally different question.
Radar
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Oakspear
I always wanted to understand the bible and to know God. The Way posed as a group that could help me do both.
I was impressed at my first fellowship by the confidence of the people there, that intrigued me.
During the PFAL class Wierwille does a pretty good job of baiting the hook for those who want to understand the bible by demonstrating how to read what is written. He teaches basic keys to understanding the bible: read what is written, read the context, understand the culture, fundamentals of Greek and Hebrew.
He started out so simple and basic. It was so self-evident when you just read the bible. He built a foundation of trust early in the class and gradually, oh so subtly introduces things that are not clearly written in the "text". Before you know it definitions and whole theologies are springing from thin air, or at least from very shaky foundations. But I hardly noticed.
Mixed in with the "intellectual" approach was pure emotion: it's "Christ in you!" and ended with the crescendo of speaking in tongues out loud in that chaotic group setting. Well that just sealed my fate.
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jezusfreaky
Dot you said:
For me, as I said above, I was confronted by someone who would become family and who was also raised Catholic. She ''showed'' me that everything, and I mean everything I was taught, raised with, believed in was a huge facade, a big lie! I remember my 5 year old nephew telling me: ''Jesus wasn't born on Christmas, that's a big fat lie!''
So, here I was, rebelling against Mom and Dad, questioning everything I'd ever believed was true about God, and these sweet, loving people at my first twig just seemed to understand everything I was going through. I was being accepted, something I never really had, even from my Mom and Dad. THAT was my hook! Acceptance and love.
To this day I struggle with acceptance and self confidence because, like most of us here, we were abused as children. In my case, sexually, emotionally and physically.
They knew the right buttons to push, that's all.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
-"I have always wondered why I did not investigate (question) more deeply the teachings/mandates/rules I accepted, while within TWI."- NLBT
NLBT,
I also wonder why me or anybody involved just never ever or barely even conveyed a slight notion TWI's poison, and if they did, they were quickly dismissed, swept under the carpet, kicked off the field, and were torn apart with words to not associate with "them". And that's a breif summary.
:)-->
There are many a wonderful reply here this your thread and I can relate to those words. I have read them all.
I was searching for the TRUTH. I was involved with Bull St. Baptist Church in Savannah, Ga. during my upbringing. Just the words Bull St. should have told me a few things the church.
:D-->
Long story short, Beatles, Led, The Who, and etc... I began QUESTioning my relationship with God and the Bong and Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds. Got involved with Eastern religions, after all - Christianity is certainly "Eastern"!!! So I figured, "What's a few more under my belt?"
Zen Buddhism, Tibetion Book of the Dead, Transcendental Meditation, Bahagavid Gita (sp), Kryia Yoga and that is where I found my niche. Kryia Yoga! I was committed to the writings of Paramahansa Yogananda because he talked about the Bible. One year full of home study courses. Then I met the WOW's. Then I was told I was full of sh$t my beliefs in Kryia Yoga and was involved in devil spirits. Hmmm... I had quit smoking, quit drugs, living a healthy life style of veggies and white fish... go figure.
I figured i must turn BACK to the Bible and these people had the answers. Yepper i figured that awrity. Took the class. That was in '75. I was 21. Finally firgured a few more things... And in '95 i left and was told i was pozzezzed. Hmmm... figure that one.
Many a story eh Leaf!!!!!!!
QUESTion On!!!!!
Rok On!!!!!
Song
Does anybody remember laughter? Led Zep
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Dot Matrix
(((Song)))
We need to get a bong for old times sake!
Just kidding....
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markomalley
Poor catechesis.
I remember when I was "in," I repeatedly said, "if the denominational churches were doing their job, there would be no need for TWI." I still say that this statement is true.
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WordWolf
I quote what George Carlin said about his Catholic school
experience. His pastor talked the diocesis into trying out
progressive education. No sweating out grades, boys and
girls together, no uniforms, movable desks not in a row...
"In fact, there was so much classroom freedom that by 8th
grade, many of us had left the faith! They had made
questioners out of us, and they didn't really have any
answers. They always fell back on 'Well, it's a mystery.'
'Jezuz, mystery...thank you faddah...mystery (what's he
talking about?)' "
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chwester
To see a miracle happen right before your eyes(speaking in tongues), is pretty convincing that those teaching you--are right on!
After that noone questioned much of anything.
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GarthP2000
I love George Carlin's portrayal. Especially this part:
that's the best part, IMHO.
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CKnapp3
JESUS H. CHRIST!!! That was a MIRACLE?????? Why that's right up there with the Catholic notion that the priest changes ordinary bread and wine into the literal body and blood of Christ is a miracle, especially when there's NO MANIFESTATION that anything miraculous took place!
I've seen better miracles at a good magic show!
:D-->
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
"(((Song)))
We need to get a bong for old times sake!
Just kidding.... "
Dot Matrix
---
dig the 70's show!!!
Now hold on there a minute (((Miss Dot Matrix))),
A 24 incher clear bong filled with ice and a couple crimpled Jamaican buds in the bowl, a bic lighter and a little Led Zep II, or say hum sum Pink Floyd while sitting on some worn old comfy couches. Well, the memories are so enticing the temptation to perform such a stream of smoke that seemed to never end why not try it again? But the legal ramifications kinda spoil the fun eh... but it didn't back then eh... hmm .... might just go to the novelty store and see what might be in store. Hey Mon, you can put your weed in here man...dig. I still have some vintage clothes from that era in primo condition (75 76). Miss them Nehru shirts.
:D-->
***
But, ennyhoots, I see the "fear factor" of being introduced to TWI via "devil spirit" threats, even though I was in the most wonderful of health mental and physical, but yet that subtle slap of words a lie repeated by those WOWs via HQ, woke me up to fear that I might just be in with that crowd of Eastern religion that was not at all "Christ -Like". But after I became involved with TWI, many wondered the knowLEDGE i acquired these "false religions". Quite a dance of paradox's a mind in search. Why did I not speak up and out? Intimidated by TWI, I spoke inbetween the lines and became a facade of beliefs in my soul of heart. Another side of the coin and all that is etched within "its" production "its" manufacture of religion "its god" to dominate people in this world. In this world, this time of presence, always the present, eternity is always a present now, that does have "hope" to be sane our thoughts the "truth". But hence beware.
Rok On,
Song
a Cat Stevens tune comes to mind...
(edited because lines "_______" were too long and made the page wide... whoops... thanks (((Dot))) for making mention...
Edited by oneyedjackswild1 psLink to comment
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andreatheflorist
Not that further comment is needed...everyone has pretty well covered all the bases, mind-control,brainwashing techniques, the fear factor, the neediness of us for love and family, etc etc- the "feeling" of finally finding the one true way into God's good graces. I left twi, then an offshoot, when I left the abusive husband, then did not even discuss or try to find out what had become of friends, or twi. I did as of this year, 12 years later. If the leaving is recent NLBT, then you have my utmost respect and admiration, because as of the fog years of my departure, things where still somewhat sane as long as your state was not too near ohio. I am beyond sickened at the things I have discovered by "lurking" about these and other pages. Hang in there, because you post seems a bit a cry of "oh man, how did I let this happen" with a touch of despair thrown in. In my own exp. (which is all anyone really knows, maybe) I have finally gotten my act and all else together, to a degree that I am comfortable with, but after mucho work. I don't post much, but sometimes feel unable to restrain myself!
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Dot Matrix
Leaf and Andrea
Lots of love and good thought being sent you.
Leaf - you are not alone...
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JoeBeliever
I remember how I started going to a Way fellowship. I was laid up in a hospital in traction and I read the gospels out of the Gideons Bible that was there in the drawer. And I thought..."wow this Jesus guy went through a lot of ****! I guess I don't have it that bad." But, I was looking for answers, too. So a verse in Luke kept popping back up in my mind and I was driven to understand why this was happening so the thought came to me why don't I go to one of these Twigs that I had been turning down invites to. So I went. Then teacher came out and it being her second live teaching ever started out her teaching with that exact verse from Luke. I don't even remember the rest of that teaching because I was so flabbergasted since I had told no one about that verse popping in my mind cuz they would have thought me crazy! I got goosebumps and another thought popped into my mind at that moment "well, you've been searching for me and here is the place". That's what 'hooked' me.
:D-->
NewLeafBetterTree
In my own experience when I took the PFAL class in 1980 I was 23 yrs old. Groovy days, I must admit! But,I must have taken a different one than others because if I remember correctly the first four sessions were taught so that I could read the Bible for myself and understand it better than I did before. It was empatically stated "Chapter and Verse please". These sessions were to give us many tools needed to question the rest of the sessions. I know I did. I had a blast questioning them. The law of believing as taught had to be somewhat bogus because I had a fear of getting murdered after dark whenever I was outside and it never happened. (Later suddenly delivered of that without much effort on my part. I don't even remember praying anything but the Lord's prayer at that time.) Ha! That's all I was bothered by....mostly I learned how to pray...believe. Wow...who was even teaching this at the time? No one I had access to anyway...Dr always pointed out books where he go the stuff so I never felt he was taking credit or conning me into anything. Before even taking the class I spoke in tongues the first time simply by reading The New Dynamic Church on it and praying to God all day at a park on a summer day. At session 12 I felt funny about SIT on queue and I always questioned that one.
shellon
I think that this statement raises the point that most of us were very busy in life. We wanted it all to be 100% correct from the start cuz we didn't have time to really do any serious questioning/answering work on it ourselves. So we just took it all in as Gospel truth. My experience was that it was always presented as 'check it yourself'. After all, VPW went from Trinitarian to One God on his own by checking it out. That sort of won my trust and formed an opinion that he was no charlatan. I even took the time to read his doctoral thesis on the failure of the overseas missions represented by his denomination. He was blacklisted and therefore an underdog after that thesis which he presented before his superiors and consequently defrocked because of it (He said)But I checked the dates and they match his story. And because of this he was very careful with the ministry as it grew. He saw the potential for tyranny happening. He insisted, for instance, that no centralized address book of Twig coordinators was to be kept at HQ. He wished for no central control...but control only on the Twig/Branch level where the people had the say-so on things. HQ was only to have a 'supportive' role..such as the classes and bookstore. This is why LCM's loyalty letter was so 'devilish'. It was a power grab from HQ to control the TC's. And it was so obvious to most..can't say all unfortunately.
To say that TWI brainwashed people and conned and manipulated in the early days is unfounded and this is why. It couldn't happen with so many individuals involved to pull something like that off. I say that when the staff were afraid to speak up so as not to lose their comfy jobs with benefits is when things went unchecked by most. Doctor feared this would happen. When I went into the Corps I did so not for my glory (although that was a motivation for others) but to have the time to continue questioning and fine-tuning my knowledge. I had access to the library which carried almost everything by anybody who ever wrote about the Bible or Denominations and also had every Sunday teaching and every Way Corps research paper written. That proved easily enough to me that 'questioning' was encouraged greatly by the ministry and body of leaders. By my last year in the Corps (1987) they had pretty much shut down the Research Dept because of the blatant errors of Athletes of the Spirit. Someone obviously was speaking up...but too little too late seems to be the best comment on that.
I also had the privilege of sitting through Dr's Advance Class, as 'transcriptor' several times and the overwhelming encouragement by him to search the scriptures to improve on his work was there. Perhaps viewing it so often made it more obvious to me. The one blatant problem I saw was in the idea of 'excellor sessions' which were hit and miss because no one is going to manifest power by rote or because its on the class schedule, but I digress. Later, I had the experience of ministering instant healing to an elderly man who had a heart attack while riding his moped. I simply approached him with a heart of compassion and used Jesus' name as I was taught in the Advanced Class. If VPW was a charlatan later is another fact but, that charlatan's teaching saved that man's life for my hands were there but so was our Lord because of it.
So I thank God that I had the time to study the Word in an indepth fashion. The biggest problems I saw arising was as old as the hills. We are all individuals. If you have 3 people witness an accident...you'll have 3 different versions of what happened. I believe that is true here. I loved the ROA and other gatherings....not so much for the family atmosphere although I loved that too. But, for all the times spent just sitting with a total stranger by a camp fire or somewhere and totally empathize with them or them with me and we could pray about something together with our own love and believing to God the Father directly. Awesome! Not to say that doesn't happen in other ministries...thank God it does. But for me.....Who taught me to do that? Dr Wierwille did anyways. Who taught me it was "The Word, the Word, the Word; and nothing but the Word"? That doesn't sound like the rhetoric one gets from those trying to con people. Now, if Dr was a Bible salesman...perhaps I would have walked away! Besides...we don't seem to complain much when our TV sets are oozing out brainwash techniques to buy their products or to vote for them or the teachers hounding our kids to nag the parents over 2nd-hand smoke...I certainly am not discounting some of the awful things that has happened to people. I feel it deeply being a fellow member of the One Body of Christ. Thank God that our hearts can be healed.
But,I think we are over thinking some of this and its mostly tainted with our hurt. People cause us hurt don't they? Not whole ministries or whole groups. Individual people hurt us...whoever they are.
The original Way Tree was set up much like our political system in the US is supposed to work. For the people, by the people, of the people. The people are what screwed up the Way. Dr's original thoughts were to 'protect' the people so those that were closest to the Trustees had the responsibility to confront and reprove. In principle that should work but when people are afraid to then it stops working right. People are human...they are going to be afraid...Every single congregation of believers ever and presently in operation all have the same potential to screw up and as history proves...it ALWAYS happens. Why? That is the real question and the real answer is because the devil is 'the god of this world' who blinds the minds. We have forgotten to blame Satan and we have played right into his hand by blaming people. "...for we wrestle not against flesh and blood" It is a challenge not to let the Adversary get us playing on the flesh and blood level. Yes, people that hurt other people should be held accountable. Again, I truly feel for the hurt people have gone through.
Let's face it...we are getting hurt all the time by people...whether its the ministry of people or people at work or in society...its still people. And we grow cautious and wiser through experience. But, we needn't be defeated by that. Remember it says "lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you". This is what is our enemy now...bitterness.
God through Jesus Christ went through great pains to teach us about 'forgiveness'. There is no marriage or relationship today anywhere that would survive without forgiveness. We are practicing it all the time. Can we excercise our spiritual right and command to forgive these individuals from our past? So, that we might move on in love and sensitivity towards others? I know I'm preaching to the choir..but it still should be said again and again until we drive out everyone whose still in pain and full of rage over someone else's devilishness. Let God judge that person so we can be free of bitterness.
I also took a little class by Walter Cummins called the Renewed Mind. I remember in that class a little exercise that was taught..."On Guard" and 'prove all things; hold fast to that which is good'. Or are we holding fast to those things that are evil? Sure many things needed to be rightly divided about VPs classes but at least it was the 'best' being taught at the time by people who 'questioned' their denominational teaching. This is why we were taught that we were "the best"..."that God has in our day and time" is the rest of that quote. and it was because no one had so far attempted what Dr did...question.
I think of it like this. Einstein spent his life coming up with E=MC squared. Now a younger person can learn that and spend his yrs building further upon that. Why can't we hold fast to that which is good and build on it with all thankfulness that we got something accurate to build upon? Its the same teaching on prayer I learned that works to get me through the hurt that was received not only from the ministry but from all the other hurts that the rest of the world seems to have no qualms about dishing out...thank God.
I know I have rambled here...but I too have been stirred by these postings. Every joint supplieth...I see people like leaking cisterns here with water mixed with the mud of anger and bitterness. As a joint or member I am stirred to help encourage you to take Father's prescription to clean us by just going to the pure waters of the fountainhead to rid ourselves of the bitter waters.
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Dot Matrix
Song
I think this thing got WIDE because of the line across your page. See if taking it out can shrink this sown please. It is hard to read.
Thank you.
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