My husband and I were specifically demanded to stop doing research in about 1996 or so. We were told to stop doing it at all, even for personal study. The only thing we were allowed to study were the books and collaterals of TWI that P*n*r*ll* set for the entire state. He had a filing system in a box that held a folder for each day of the week with a different TWI syllabus in it that you were to study on that day and they carried it with them everywhere. I remember people bearing it before them at HQ like it was the Ark of the Covenant or something as they left the OSC building....seriously.
As for any research now, you know it can't be going on for real. On their web site if you look under research, it shows photo of a couple of people sitting or standing at a conference table with impressive looking bookshelves behind them.
However what is lacking is the names and/or credentials of the people who supposedly submit this so-called "research." Ya know why?
They can't do it because they have NO ONE in that organization who has studied biblical languages at and/or graduated from a respectable accredited University with a degree in biblical studies and languages who can properly parse a pronoun.
If they DID, you KNOW they would have the information out there.
They sit on Aramaic work done by qualified people who are no longer around. Neither their own people can effectively use those works, because they don't understand and can't read and translate the script, nor can the outside relgious community buy the works because TWI will only sell them to "the household."
They had lots of well-qualified individuals with bachelors degrees, masters degrees, and PhDs in the languages, but RAN THEM OFF when these people had the integrity to NOT rubber-stamp bad work.
People like Dr. D*n McCon*ughy, Br*ce M*hone, and others who attended the University of Chicago and The Lutheran School of Theology under the world's foremost Aramaic Scholar, Dr. Arthur Voobus. People like B*b W*ssu*g, myself, and others sat at his feet. My husband studied biblical greek under Professor Wilmot at University of Chicago. There were many many others (for instance Orange Cat et al), that TWI could have utilized to do true and honest research, yet time and again, because we would not bend, were dismissed, harassed, defamed, and run off.
TWI could have had a treasure trove of help, but rejected it. Hell, I even sat through Mel Gibson's passion and did not need the subtitles even after years of not even looking at the language. Just think of what the likes of these other folks could have done for TWI if only The Way International had had the guts to allow them to do honest research.
They can't DO genuine research because they have nobody qualified to do it.
All they permit anyone to do is rehash what has already been done and God forbid you should contradict established doctrine.
Way of Redundance and Power rehashed stuff from previous years, but also had work in it from W*yn* Cl***, my husband, and myself, albeit what we submitted had certainly been distorted.
Craig had this habit of taking bits and pieces of what was given him, and taking it off on tangents. A lot of what he taught was his own ramblings and perversions and bastardizations of things other people had submitted to him.
I remember at one point VP had expressed dismay with Twig leaders going around teaching their own stuff. He didn't want anyone going off on a tangent. So he redefined research as "re-searching" that which had already been done. We were to get out the books and Way Mag and teach them in our Twigs.
Later it became mandatory to review the written materials instead of preparing a teaching. Do your Twiggies need info on eternal life? Sorry, we're on Chapter 3 in the blue book this week. Real personal. Must meet a lot of needs.
So of course TWI today does research. They all spend time "re-searching" what they already read and heard 20 times. Such a vital ministry.
I think my take on this issue is a little unique. Around 1982 I began woith closely with J... Sch....... on a chronology of the OT. Being a simple-joe believer, I wasn't allowed in the RD, but from my home God showed me great signs and miracles in this study. When the RD was busted up, JS told me directly to forget ever working for the RD of the Way, because they were heading into the toilet. I kept doing my own personal study though, and God finally showed me how it all fit together - I tried to give it to the Ministry, and all I got was "You're just a joe-believer, you can't do any research WE want to read" - I left the Way soon after, Research Ministry? NOT!!!
Catcup The good thing is you are free to publish your work now unedited and undistorted. Geeks and your appendix One Body Minded/The Balanced Walk of Love has been a blessing to lots of people. As well as his teaching ministry. Thanks for sharing him with us and all you do behind the scenes. Now if I could just get you to come out to play along with him sometime.
The Way Corps program has a research section in the training where the trainees are given a certain situation and they are challenged to come up with a way to help that person and answer their questions by using the latest Sunday teachings, Way Magazine and the collaterals. Using your own research and outside sources are not permitted.
Oh, I get it! "It is Written" means stuff twi wrote in the way rag, or collaterals, or taught on a tape.....not what "we" as older folks were taught....referring to what was written by holy men as they were inspired by God. Those are the words meant when they say..."the prevailing word in the household of our day and time"
So, now not only have they removed Jesus Christ, but also Scripture. And some folks think Scientology is weird!
If you want real research read "Reading the Bible again for the first time" by Marcus J. Borg. What he has done is stimulating,challanging and thought provoking. Research that inspires the reader to concider and think for themselves. His work makes VeePee's "research" seem unrealistic and down right childish.
"Way of Redundance and Power rehashed stuff from previous years, but also had work in it from W*yn* Cl***, my husband, and myself, albeit what we submitted had certainly been distorted.
Craig had this habit of taking bits and pieces of what was given him, and taking it off on tangents. A lot of what he taught was his own ramblings and perversions and bastardizations of things other people had submitted to him."
Catcup, would you please elaborate upon the above statement more specifically? My H sat through a repeat of "The Way of Redundance and Cower" class recently. Prior to that, I asked him if they were still teaching Martindale's idea that Eve and The Devil actually engaged in lesbian sex, thereby causing the spiritual downfall of all mankind. I pointed out that that idea, in total, makes very little sense, and contradicts everything we had been taught about the nature of spirit and the nature of flesh. I.e., "spirit is spirit, and flesh is flesh", and that it would be impossible for a spirit to actually have sex with a human being. If that were possible, it would also be feasible that God actually had "sex" with Mary in order to conceive Jesus Christ---and we all know that that possibility is emphatically refuted in all TWI (as well as all other Christian) doctrine. I actually re-read that section in the WAP class syllabus, and noted once again, the way in which scripture had to be contorted in order to reach that conclusion. It was about as clear as mud, but they nonetheless persist in maintaining this doctrine. He concedes that there is an apparent contradiction between what we had been taught and Martindale's version of "the original sin of man", but he will not concede that it might be spiritually dishonest to continue to promulgate this shakey doctrine (big surprise there,... -->)
Anyway, my question to you is: Were you and Geek on staff when this idea was being formulated? Does this explaination of "the fall of man" make sense? Or do you think it was yet again, another instance of LCM's perversions and bastardizations run amok?...That's actually three questions, isn't it?...Sorry... :D-->
After sitting throught the "Eve" section the first time, a large number of grads approached the wc running the class out of confusion. No one got it. After being told to work it, we still didn't see it.
Fast forward to first class with new people: same effect. Blank stares. Sadly, w whole bunch of segments left new students confused. Even the wc would admit privately that they still didn't see the explanation about Eve fitting. Public faces, as always, were different.
The wc teaching it start talking really fast and you can tell they hope no one asks any questions about it. They will adamantly defend it as accurate and correct, though they can't explain it and can't back it up with real research.
Does anyone remember lcm teaching it? Isn't this where he says, "Do you see it? (laugh) Well, I do." Insinuating that we have to just "take it on faith" because the mogfart said that's what it says. Sadly, that's the way most of the wc still think.
Your mention of the lust affair beteen Eve and the serpent really made me laugh. Is this for real? Did LCM really teach that non-sence? OH my... I'm saddened that not only has his seared thinking (logic) been so twisted but the delusional insight into the "SCRIPTURES" scream loudly of insanity. I'm so glad I left in 89.
imbus - not only did he teach it - he taught it as "the original sin".
Gosh - we need another topic started about the WAP class... so bizarre - I'm amazed they're still teaching it. As inaccurate as PFAL is, it looks like Shakespere compared to WAP.
When I got to the "Devil in a Blue Dress" :D--> segment of WayAP, I thought "what the f***?"
I did work it. Backwards and forwards, for a year and a half. The response I got from my region coordinator when I presented my findings to him was "Even if we can't document it, it's got to be true because of what we know about homosexuality"
I left in 87 and when I first heard about this unbelievable "Eve was a lesbian" teaching, the Dr. Pepper I was drinking shot out my nose.
I remember thinking at the time that this was possibly another projection of the extreme insecurity he feels about his own sexual orientation, or he was smoking crack.
In either case, he had no business standing in front of other people, pretending to be anything other than the moron that he was.
I's almost beyond belief that twi still doles out the same sophmoric diatribe from a defrocked minister who was disgraced in public. I never took this "class" and am curious as to how he "biblically" explained how the serpent took the form of a homosexual woman. Did he just say, "take my word for it?"
He did teach about Lilith, but it was in context of degrading and poking fun at some other religion that believes in her. He did also basically say that we have to take his word for it (Eve and the devil as a lesbian) if we can't see what he taught.
I'll look this week-end and see what the notes in my syllabus say. He used a lot of the words in those verses as hominyms (spelling?) -
Example: "good for the eyes" with "eyes" being some Hebrew word that also means "fountain" as in the fountain of juices flowing from a woman's privates or something along those lines.
I'm so confused... how could Eve have been a lesbian? ...wasn't she the only woman? I'm not real familiar with how the lesbian thing works, but don't you need at least TWO women?
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Catcup
My husband and I were specifically demanded to stop doing research in about 1996 or so. We were told to stop doing it at all, even for personal study. The only thing we were allowed to study were the books and collaterals of TWI that P*n*r*ll* set for the entire state. He had a filing system in a box that held a folder for each day of the week with a different TWI syllabus in it that you were to study on that day and they carried it with them everywhere. I remember people bearing it before them at HQ like it was the Ark of the Covenant or something as they left the OSC building....seriously.
As for any research now, you know it can't be going on for real. On their web site if you look under research, it shows photo of a couple of people sitting or standing at a conference table with impressive looking bookshelves behind them.
However what is lacking is the names and/or credentials of the people who supposedly submit this so-called "research." Ya know why?
They can't do it because they have NO ONE in that organization who has studied biblical languages at and/or graduated from a respectable accredited University with a degree in biblical studies and languages who can properly parse a pronoun.
If they DID, you KNOW they would have the information out there.
They sit on Aramaic work done by qualified people who are no longer around. Neither their own people can effectively use those works, because they don't understand and can't read and translate the script, nor can the outside relgious community buy the works because TWI will only sell them to "the household."
They had lots of well-qualified individuals with bachelors degrees, masters degrees, and PhDs in the languages, but RAN THEM OFF when these people had the integrity to NOT rubber-stamp bad work.
People like Dr. D*n McCon*ughy, Br*ce M*hone, and others who attended the University of Chicago and The Lutheran School of Theology under the world's foremost Aramaic Scholar, Dr. Arthur Voobus. People like B*b W*ssu*g, myself, and others sat at his feet. My husband studied biblical greek under Professor Wilmot at University of Chicago. There were many many others (for instance Orange Cat et al), that TWI could have utilized to do true and honest research, yet time and again, because we would not bend, were dismissed, harassed, defamed, and run off.
TWI could have had a treasure trove of help, but rejected it. Hell, I even sat through Mel Gibson's passion and did not need the subtitles even after years of not even looking at the language. Just think of what the likes of these other folks could have done for TWI if only The Way International had had the guts to allow them to do honest research.
They can't DO genuine research because they have nobody qualified to do it.
All they permit anyone to do is rehash what has already been done and God forbid you should contradict established doctrine.
That's not RESEARCH and it's not HONEST.
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Catcup
Way of Redundance and Power rehashed stuff from previous years, but also had work in it from W*yn* Cl***, my husband, and myself, albeit what we submitted had certainly been distorted.
Craig had this habit of taking bits and pieces of what was given him, and taking it off on tangents. A lot of what he taught was his own ramblings and perversions and bastardizations of things other people had submitted to him.
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shazdancer
Dear Catcup,
I remember at one point VP had expressed dismay with Twig leaders going around teaching their own stuff. He didn't want anyone going off on a tangent. So he redefined research as "re-searching" that which had already been done. We were to get out the books and Way Mag and teach them in our Twigs.
Later it became mandatory to review the written materials instead of preparing a teaching. Do your Twiggies need info on eternal life? Sorry, we're on Chapter 3 in the blue book this week. Real personal. Must meet a lot of needs.
So of course TWI today does research. They all spend time "re-searching" what they already read and heard 20 times. Such a vital ministry.
Regards,
Shaz
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diazbro
well since my earliest days with TWI I was
told that "working the word" qualified as
research hence TWI was and would always be
a research ministry on this basis. So from
my point of view TWI's concept of "research" was
never that academic but was loosely defined
to include any number of activities.
This isn't to say that the people who worked
on research staff weren't capable or serious about their work but I was always led to believe that each believer was more or less
responsible for this task...of course using
the "help" of various way publications.
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WordWolf
They ran the research dept out of town on a rail back in 1989 for refusal to
kneel before Zod. (That produced a temporary problem where they had nobody to
write stuff for the way mag, which then began using lots and lots of
illustrations as filler space in their articles.)
I had no idea there WAS anyone there as of 1990 who could do REAL research.
Of course, twi's STILL convinced they're better than all other Christians, even
though I can find better results from people who've never heard of them, their
classes, their books, or even Leonard or Stiles.
Sad, really.
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Digger
I think my take on this issue is a little unique. Around 1982 I began woith closely with J... Sch....... on a chronology of the OT. Being a simple-joe believer, I wasn't allowed in the RD, but from my home God showed me great signs and miracles in this study. When the RD was busted up, JS told me directly to forget ever working for the RD of the Way, because they were heading into the toilet. I kept doing my own personal study though, and God finally showed me how it all fit together - I tried to give it to the Ministry, and all I got was "You're just a joe-believer, you can't do any research WE want to read" - I left the Way soon after, Research Ministry? NOT!!!
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Catcup
What the academic community and what The Way International considers as true research, has always been and always will be vastly different.
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WhiteDove
Catcup The good thing is you are free to publish your work now unedited and undistorted. Geeks and your appendix One Body Minded/The Balanced Walk of Love has been a blessing to lots of people. As well as his teaching ministry. Thanks for sharing him with us and all you do behind the scenes. Now if I could just get you to come out to play along with him sometime.
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Trefor Heywood
"Study to show thyself approved unto TWI, a workman that needeth not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of the BOD.."
(2 Timothy according to usage)
-->
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JustThinking
Catcup,
Private topic for you.
JT
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simpleton
The Way Corps program has a research section in the training where the trainees are given a certain situation and they are challenged to come up with a way to help that person and answer their questions by using the latest Sunday teachings, Way Magazine and the collaterals. Using your own research and outside sources are not permitted.
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krys
Oh, I get it! "It is Written" means stuff twi wrote in the way rag, or collaterals, or taught on a tape.....not what "we" as older folks were taught....referring to what was written by holy men as they were inspired by God. Those are the words meant when they say..."the prevailing word in the household of our day and time"
So, now not only have they removed Jesus Christ, but also Scripture. And some folks think Scientology is weird!
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imbus
If you want real research read "Reading the Bible again for the first time" by Marcus J. Borg. What he has done is stimulating,challanging and thought provoking. Research that inspires the reader to concider and think for themselves. His work makes VeePee's "research" seem unrealistic and down right childish.
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Cherished Child
"Way of Redundance and Power rehashed stuff from previous years, but also had work in it from W*yn* Cl***, my husband, and myself, albeit what we submitted had certainly been distorted.
Craig had this habit of taking bits and pieces of what was given him, and taking it off on tangents. A lot of what he taught was his own ramblings and perversions and bastardizations of things other people had submitted to him."
Catcup, would you please elaborate upon the above statement more specifically? My H sat through a repeat of "The Way of Redundance and Cower" class recently. Prior to that, I asked him if they were still teaching Martindale's idea that Eve and The Devil actually engaged in lesbian sex, thereby causing the spiritual downfall of all mankind. I pointed out that that idea, in total, makes very little sense, and contradicts everything we had been taught about the nature of spirit and the nature of flesh. I.e., "spirit is spirit, and flesh is flesh", and that it would be impossible for a spirit to actually have sex with a human being. If that were possible, it would also be feasible that God actually had "sex" with Mary in order to conceive Jesus Christ---and we all know that that possibility is emphatically refuted in all TWI (as well as all other Christian) doctrine. I actually re-read that section in the WAP class syllabus, and noted once again, the way in which scripture had to be contorted in order to reach that conclusion. It was about as clear as mud, but they nonetheless persist in maintaining this doctrine. He concedes that there is an apparent contradiction between what we had been taught and Martindale's version of "the original sin of man", but he will not concede that it might be spiritually dishonest to continue to promulgate this shakey doctrine (big surprise there,...
-->)
Anyway, my question to you is: Were you and Geek on staff when this idea was being formulated? Does this explaination of "the fall of man" make sense? Or do you think it was yet again, another instance of LCM's perversions and bastardizations run amok?...That's actually three questions, isn't it?...Sorry...
:D-->
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JustThinking
CC,
After sitting throught the "Eve" section the first time, a large number of grads approached the wc running the class out of confusion. No one got it. After being told to work it, we still didn't see it.
Fast forward to first class with new people: same effect. Blank stares. Sadly, w whole bunch of segments left new students confused. Even the wc would admit privately that they still didn't see the explanation about Eve fitting. Public faces, as always, were different.
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Tom Strange
Catcup, were the subtitles given in "The Passion" pretty accurate? Just wondering what your thoughts were...
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insurgent
The wc teaching it start talking really fast and you can tell they hope no one asks any questions about it. They will adamantly defend it as accurate and correct, though they can't explain it and can't back it up with real research.
Does anyone remember lcm teaching it? Isn't this where he says, "Do you see it? (laugh) Well, I do." Insinuating that we have to just "take it on faith" because the mogfart said that's what it says. Sadly, that's the way most of the wc still think.
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imbus
Cherished Child,
Your mention of the lust affair beteen Eve and the serpent really made me laugh. Is this for real? Did LCM really teach that non-sence? OH my... I'm saddened that not only has his seared thinking (logic) been so twisted but the delusional insight into the "SCRIPTURES" scream loudly of insanity. I'm so glad I left in 89.
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Hope R.
imbus - not only did he teach it - he taught it as "the original sin".
Gosh - we need another topic started about the WAP class... so bizarre - I'm amazed they're still teaching it. As inaccurate as PFAL is, it looks like Shakespere compared to WAP.
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Oakspear
When I got to the "Devil in a Blue Dress"
:D--> segment of WayAP, I thought "what the f***?"
I did work it. Backwards and forwards, for a year and a half. The response I got from my region coordinator when I presented my findings to him was "Even if we can't document it, it's got to be true because of what we know about homosexuality"
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GrouchoMarxJr
I left in 87 and when I first heard about this unbelievable "Eve was a lesbian" teaching, the Dr. Pepper I was drinking shot out my nose.
I remember thinking at the time that this was possibly another projection of the extreme insecurity he feels about his own sexual orientation, or he was smoking crack.
In either case, he had no business standing in front of other people, pretending to be anything other than the moron that he was.
I's almost beyond belief that twi still doles out the same sophmoric diatribe from a defrocked minister who was disgraced in public. I never took this "class" and am curious as to how he "biblically" explained how the serpent took the form of a homosexual woman. Did he just say, "take my word for it?"
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Steve Swenton
Eve was a lesbian?!? I'm surprised he wasn't trying to teach the "Lilith" theory as well.
Come to think of it, if this wasn't sick, it'd be funny.
Just a thought...
Steve.
¥
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WaywardWayfer
He did teach about Lilith, but it was in context of degrading and poking fun at some other religion that believes in her. He did also basically say that we have to take his word for it (Eve and the devil as a lesbian) if we can't see what he taught.
I'll look this week-end and see what the notes in my syllabus say. He used a lot of the words in those verses as hominyms (spelling?) -
Example: "good for the eyes" with "eyes" being some Hebrew word that also means "fountain" as in the fountain of juices flowing from a woman's privates or something along those lines.
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Tom Strange
I'm so confused... how could Eve have been a lesbian? ...wasn't she the only woman? I'm not real familiar with how the lesbian thing works, but don't you need at least TWO women?
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