I think we are in agreement about much. Many times I did not feel this way with your posts. I felt somehow you were defending VPW and condemning the corps. It always baffled me as VPW is the one who "led the corps" now he did have those under him on each campus (his axe men) but it was his philosophy and his "approved research" and thinking that we were taught.
I did know him personally. After reading your response, although you and I will never know for sure, I have a feeling if you had REALLY known VPW you would not have liked him and you would have seen where "the bad corps" got much of their guidance.
you said:
quote: But try this. Picture any TWI event that you have ever attended (Not including: Emporia, HQ, LEAD, Gunnison, or Rome City) If there was 100 people in the meeting, and you saw 10 being nice to each other, helping one another, and loving. Wouldn’t it be a good probability that that 10 do not wear the title ‘corpse’.
Within the same meeting, if you could see 10 people would were hurried, on people’s cases for little things, who others were trying to avoid, and who would openly degrade and hate others, it would be a very good possibility that this second 10 people are corpse and are proud of it.
You know, because those ten (hypothetical)loving believers wanted to do more for God, they probably went into the corps and there they were striped of their dignity, individuality and, sometimes if they sold out to VP's corps program, their conscience.
Personally, I did not go in the corps so I could launch a reign of terror on people. I did not go in because I needed respect. I had a house, a converted barn "house" it was large. The kitchen was almost as large as half the house where I currently dwell. I had a job, the pay from which I have never been able to duplicate, I had a car that was only a couple years old and it ran and I had money in the bank. But I still needed Jesus. And I wanted to help others get to know that Jesus.
The "corps" was VPW's program designed for the committed. It was marketed as a great place, "The Way living in Love" where you would be learning about things like how to help people, healing and most of all love.
I wanted to dedicate myself to God and to help people. I was as dissappointed in the "corps program" as you were with the results in most of the people you met who were corps. But I did want you to know Weirwille was behind the training.
JAL was being nice to us and the BOD came down to scream at him because he was TOO nice and after all we were not in a "country club". VPW was the Prez at the time. JAL, at that time, was funny, respectful of people, and kind. Then, IMO, he wasn't
We both saw very nasty corps. Horrible empowered people. We just do not agree on how they got that way. I believe it was VPW and you, not knowing him, I guess kinda leave him out of the equation.
Galen--you were very obviously burned by corps people. Fine. However, your extrapolation out to the whole 3,4,5000 or so is unwarranted and your age and experience in life should tell you that I should not have to tell you this -- you know better. Do you want me to start disparaging U.S. armed services people with the same prejudice you are showing?? You are a better man than this and more honest so please take off the blinders you have put on...
Now, because I was in the corps, are you going to rail on what I just told you and call me evil???
And come on, gdamn it, vic was in charge--and in ways you CANNOT possibly know about, because you were not there and I, and others, was/were...
will you listen to me spout off about the Submarine Service, Galen??? will you??? really???? c'mon, get honest--you know you won't!! as my old man always said, sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander...please let me know if I need to explain that....
ex10, your comment about the blue forms made me laugh. I bet there's boxes in closets and garages all over the world that still have some of those in them.
The business about the blue forms was the most hateful of things I experienced in the Way.
Point of fact - my wife and I moved to a large Area in about 82. We had a little twig, and "twig area" which was 2 or 3 twigs depending on the month.
Anyway, for most of the first year I was either not working or working intermittently. Another guy in our twig the same thing for most of that year. There were a few others who had regular "day jobs" and between us all probably only two people with decent incomes. But we all gave what we had and sent it in and we were all pretty happy if not rich. My point, we weren't a "big money" fellowship of people.
Anyway as we got started the second year the local Area coordinator got with me to tell me some news - he'd been doing the books for the previous year and lo n behold! Our twig from the previous year was the SECOND highest ABS'ers in the entire Area, which totaled 3 branches plus our "twig area"..... ??? The highest ABS'ers was a fellowship of long standing grads who were always "# 1".
Which made me scratch my head. How could a bunch like us, a brand new twig in it's first year, be the second highest "givers" in that Area. It didn't make sense till I realized that apparently either we were the only ones who were stupid enough to try and share on a regular basis OR everyone else was poorer than dirt. (actually it was due to one couple for most of the year, whose husband was one of the greatest guys I've ever know and who of course was considered marginal by other Way bosses because he didn't kiss everyone's a$$ on cue).
There were several instances of those kinds of things that happened while I was in Florida - ABS, PFAL registrations, WOW registrations, twig "numbers", split. Our folks always seemed to quietly go about their business and I tried to not get in their hair...yet I always had some Wise Elder on my a$$ telling me what a lousy job I was doing because I didn't do it "the right way" or according to the Holy Rules of Behavior of the Way.
Funny looking back. I was a pretty tweezed "leader" by any standard but I saw some amazing things inbetween failing and succeeding. :)-->
"Galen--you were very obviously burned by corps people."
Only by 'active' corpse people, who were Limb Coord (LC) or LC-suckups or higher. Not by the 4 corpse people that I have known whose focus was on serving G-d and His people. As I have said through-out not ALL corpse, were neccesarily 'bad'.
"Fine. However, your extrapolation out to the whole 3,4,5000 or so is unwarranted and your age and experience in life should tell you that I should not have to tell you this -- _you know better_. Do you want me to start disparaging U.S. armed services people with the same prejudice you are showing?? You are a better man than this and more honest so please take off the blinders you have put on..."
A lot of servicemembners are bone-heads. Okay. So what.
I hear you, and I think I understand what you are saying, though I dont really think that I have such 'blinders' on.
I had thought that VPW ran a large corporation, with multiple locations, training thousands of people. Here on Greasespot Cafe, I have been corrected. He taught each corpse person individually, and each corpse grad modeled their behavior after him. Okay, fine. This was not the empression that I had, but obviously I was in error.
"Now, because I was in the corps, are you going to rail on what I just told you and call me evil???"
No where did I call ALL corpse evil, did I?
But many even here on Greasespot Cafe will agree that their were many Corpse who were very evil and mean and nasty. To say otherwise would be dis-honest, sir.
Now, wait, I have made statements about how we have ALL done wrong. And we have ALL sinned. I know that I certainly have. I was a member of a large organization, that destroyed mens lives. I was led astray and bought into what the organization was doing for many years. I re-enlisted many times. I have worked alongside of men, as we all engested and absorbed hazardous chemicals and radiation, and many of them died. Anyone who complained of medical problems, we wrote-up as malingerers, charged them with crimes, and processed them out. And then later, I defended Muslims as they bickered with and fought Christians. I have been a consenting party to leading men to die, and I have caused men to die.
"And come on, gdamn it, vic was in charge--and in ways you CANNOT possibly know about, because you were not there and I, and others, was/were..."
Okay, I will admit that he was in charge in ways that I have no idea about. WHAT??? How can I possibly agree to such a statement? If I know nothing about it, then I know nothing about it.
"will you listen to me spout off about the Submarine Service, Galen??? will you??? really???? c'mon, get honest--you know you won't!! as my old man always said, sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander...please let me know if I need to explain that...."
Take your best shot.
I think perhaps that you really dont know me, sir. I make statements about me, that to me dont give a ring of truth. If you think I am that shallow, then fine. I am being honest.
Whether goose, or sauce, or what ever, go for it, dude.
In the course of my limited exposure to TWI, I saw people act the way that they did. For me to report what they did, to say here how I saw people handle themselves, is honest. I dont see the dis-honesty in this. You do, fine.
edited to be more gentle:
I do not intend to be insulting to ALL Way Corps grads. I have not met all of them, nor do I intend to (within this life). My observations are limited to those individuals within which I have had dealings. I have been told that the majority of Way Corpse Grads were gentle kind and loving. Such has not been my observations, and I can only speak to that which I have both seen and heard. From among those Corpse of whom I have dealt, the majority of them ended as severely negative experiences. I had assumed that such was always the case with most Average Joe Believers. If anyone takes anything that I have written personally and feels insulted, I apologize. I can only speak concerning those of whom I have dealt with myself. On numerous occasions I have named Corpse Grads who have acted un-kindly and carried themselves in a manner which brought a bad name to Christianity. If you are not among those I have so named, then obviously you were never a complete idiot in your dealings with me. There were always many loving godly believers within TWI, who only wanted to worship G-d and serve others.
I am not speaking for Socks, but for myself, a corps grad.
I understand the point he is trying to make. You revere the teachings of VPW but revile (so to speak) his students.
The way corps is and was.....a group of people, from opposite parts of the country, opposite countries of the world. Different educational backgrounds, financial stratas, goals and most of all....PERSONAL SPACE.
We came together for training, training for a lifetime of christian service. Our motives were as varied as our personalities. I PERSONALLY do not know that anyone that I knew or was friends with went into the way corps for any reason other than we wanted to be trained for a lifetime of christian service.
THAT SAID......I totally agree that lots of us were total SCREW UPS, total IDIOTS, total LOOSERS and totally devoid of spiritual judgement and or/spiritual concern for others. ON the other hand, there were PLENTY OF US that were just IDIOTS. We THOUGHT we were being trained for a LIFETIME OF CHRISTIAN SERVICE but we were WRONG.
I am not gonna make a blanket apology for all of the idiots that went thru and graduated from the way corps...that is their cross to bear.
But please, when please listen and consider what Socks says....he and his wife..they leave a legacy of WHAT IT COULD HAVE BEEN in their wake. He isn't wrong.......at least not in this matter. He is speaking for many more of us than even he knows.
quote: The business about the blue forms was the most hateful of things I experienced in the Way.
Exactly, socks. Because "success" was measured in dollar amounts and numbers of people.
My husband and I learned that the hard way. The "business" of "a lifetime of Christian service" always came first. Never mind that there were people in our branch who had incredible need, financial, emotional, physical, etc. It always boiled down to numbers of people in classes, and money.
Once we realized this, we decided that we were NOT cut out to be "leaders," in the sense that the corporation demanded. So we opted out, and refused to take any more "corps assignments," that involved doing anything more than running a twig. It was the only HONEST thing we felt like we could do.
Others chose different paths, but I'm here to tell ya, that they HAD TO SELL OUT to the business side of "the ministry," if they wanted to be an "important somebody." Hence, the not so pleasant experience of Galen and others.
". . . I PERSONALLY do not know that anyone that I knew or was friends with went into the way corps for any reason other than we wanted to be trained for a lifetime of christian service."
A noble purpose.
"I am not gonna make a blanket apology for all of the idiots that went thru and graduated from the way corps...that is their cross to bear."
I dont think that I have ever asked, nor even implied that you should.
"But please, when please listen and consider what Socks says....he and his wife..they leave a legacy of WHAT IT COULD HAVE BEEN in their wake. He isn't wrong.......at least not in this matter. He is speaking for many more of us than even he knows."
Very well.
edited to be more gentle:
I do not intend to be insulting to ALL Way Corps grads. I have not met all of them, nor do I intend to (within this life). My observations are limited to those individuals within which I have had dealings. I have been told that the majority of Way Corpse Grads were gentle kind and loving. Such has not been my observations, and I can only speak to that which I have both seen and heard. From among those Corpse of whom I have dealt, the majority of them ended as severely negative experiences. I had assumed that such was always the case with most Average Joe Believers. If anyone takes anything that I have written personally and feels insulted, I apologize. I can only speak concerning those of whom I have dealt with myself. On numerous occasions I have named Corpse Grads who have acted un-kindly and carried themselves in a manner which brought a bad name to Christianity. If you are not among those I have so named, then obviously you were never a complete idiot in your dealings with me. There were always many loving godly believers within TWI, who only wanted to worship G-d and serve others.
"Galen: I said what I said. You are tarring with a wide brush. Period."
Very well.
"Find the word shallow in what I said. I said you don't know what went on and you speak like you do. Period."
I dont know, what 'training' you wen through. I have said this before and will likely say it again. I dont think that I ever did say that I was there.
I can however still speak for what I saw and how I was treated. If that offends you, it is truly bad. Does your mirror image offend you? Does the image of old photograghs offend you as well? I am sorry.
"I WILL NOT speak to the Submarine Service; THAT is my WHOLE point, capiche???? I was not there where you were-- how could I??"
Which has been my point as well. It is good that we agree.
I was not in corpse training, get it?
"I find your manner offensive, Period."
That it too bad.
"You do not like that about ME, fine. Period."
I dont think that I ever said I did not like you.
Did it sound like I said something negative about you?
I dont know you, how could I have insulted you so mortally?
There were people who acted poorly, they treated others very badly. I saw it, and it brought dis-honour to Christainity. Did that include you? I have no idea. I dont know you.
If I simply speak the truth of what I have seen and done, how should it bring such offense to you, a man I dont know. You even think that I dis-like you personally.
Ooops.
edited to be more gentle:
I do not intend to be insulting to ALL Way Corps grads. I have not met all of them, nor do I intend to (within this life). My observations are limited to those individuals within which I have had dealings. I have been told that the majority of Way Corpse Grads were gentle kind and loving. Such has not been my observations, and I can only speak to that which I have both seen and heard. From among those Corpse of whom I have dealt, the majority of them ended as severely negative experiences. I had assumed that such was always the case with most Average Joe Believers. If anyone takes anything that I have written personally and feels insulted, I apologize. I can only speak concerning those of whom I have dealt with myself. On numerous occasions I have named Corpse Grads who have acted un-kindly and carried themselves in a manner which brought a bad name to Christianity. If you are not among those I have so named, then obviously you were never a complete idiot in your dealings with me. There were always many loving godly believers within TWI, who only wanted to worship G-d and serve others.
There were some really great Fellowship coordinators I had dealt with in the past that were not Corps but were better than Corps. Bruce and Debby Watkins were straight from the heart. They broke from the way around 1989 or just before that and continued fellowshipping as best they could. Bruce and Deb always gave of themselves even when times were tough. They never went after anyone to "reprove" or correct. They just spoke the Word and let us handle it from there. It seems from my experience with them that no matter what the trials they went through, they were always delivered. I can't say the same about a lot of Corps but I do wish everyone's deliverance. Does anybody know anyone else that were not Corps that seemed to have the heart meant for a ministry? I believe some people had callings, so to speak, but didn't go in the Corps. They did the Advanced Class and the WOW program and that was that. Perhaps God wanted them to stay out of the Corps. They were such terrific local leaders. I saw them literally financially bail out limb coordinators and other Way Corps who lost in life. To this day, they always kept their doors open to those who wanted to talk about the Word. Of all the people I met in the Way, they were the one's with the greatest heart that I knew.
By your own admission, the most of the corps you dealt with were at the limb or country or whatever level and you needed class materials. Do I have that right?
Just consider that these people involved in such things were not representative of the masses.
Most limbs, and countries as well (I assume) had limited resources. They tended to get pretty protective of their "stuff" and who was using it, for what purpose, etc. I'm not making excuses, just trying to point out that there were many factors involved in running PFAL classes, that maybe you aren't/weren't aware of.
There's no doubt that some corps "leaders" were jerks. But it's pretty upsetting for those of us who feel like we did our damndest for people, to be stereotyped. Surely you understand that?
Really, Galen, your reply borders on the disingenuous. Of course you insult me and others I know when you sweep with your generalities--by your count, over 100 and only 4 you find "acceptable". Nice ratio... were these your words?--"Corpse members were certainly a varied bunch. In my limited experience, the over-whelming majority of Corpse were mean nasty a$$holes." What conclusions would anyone draw from that statement??----
"I have probably seen 100 corpse over the course of 18 years, between my wife and I, we can count how many we ever knew the names of on the fingers of 2 hands, of those 4 turned out to be nice. (I am hesitant to say ‘loving’). In limb meetings, at limb offices, etc, I have seen and dealt with many more green name tag wearers, who I never knew their names, but were less friendly than a scorpion in my shorts."
If I am unfriendly, what about you??? You come off highly judgemental and prejudicial and you cannot understand why that would offend me?? You act much more dense than I have reason, by your other posts here, to believe.
""You do not like that about ME, fine. Period."
I dont think that I ever said I did not like you.
Did it sound like I said something negative about you?
I dont know you, how could I have insulted you so mortally?
There were people who acted poorly, they treated others very badly. I saw it, and it brought dis-honour to Christainity. Did that include you? I have no idea. I dont know you.
If I simply speak the truth of what I have seen and done, how should it bring such offense to you, a man I dont know. You even think that I dis-like you personally.
Ooops."---- My statement was suppositional, based upon YOUR prior statement--ya know, all korks are a-holes, mean, nasty, dog-kickers, whatever...I figured you would most likely be lumping me in there, considering YOUR over 100 to 4 ratio, in YOUR OWN stated experience. Did I mis-read you ?? ....
or are YOU mis-reading me, lumping me in with your prior experience?? not to mention many friends of mine over the years, who also don't fit your stereotype....
here is another statement of yours, Galen--thanks for thinking that I "might" be human--no pre-judice there...sheeesh
"I could agree with that summation.
I dont recall ever being within a twig that was led by a corpse person, but I do recall hearing that there were some corpse who were just Twig-coordinators. On the few occassions that I was traveling and found myself in a 'heavily populated area' (meaning a city with dozens of corpse living in it), it did seem that the 'lower' corpse were much nicer and could even possibly be considered human. Almost as human as a regular beleiver.
So it would be a reasonable idea that the 'nasty / evil / boot-licking / a$$hole' characteristics may have been painted on thicker as a person climbed higher up the ladder."
But many even here on Greasespot Cafe will agree that their were many Corpse who were very evil and mean and nasty. To say otherwise would be dis-honest, sir.
That's true, there were many.
BUT SIR, THERE WERE MANY, MANY, MANY MORE WHO WEREN'T. Yet the tone of your posts does not seem to ever allow for that.
I'm sorry you didn't get to meet many of them, you have to admit that your exposure to and involvement with TWI was "not the norm". You were on a submarine for a good part of it (from what I understand), and other times you were in the military while doing the outreach.
You also said to Alfakat:
quote:Did it sound like I said something negative about you?
YES YOU DID, WHEN YOU BLANKET LABEL THE CORPS AS EVIL, ROTTEN A$$HOLES. see Galen, Alfakat was corps, but he wasn't and evil, rotten a$$hole.
quote:There were people who acted poorly, they treated others very badly. I saw it, and it brought dis-honour to Christainity. Did that include you? I have no idea. I dont know you....
I dont know you, how could I have insulted you so mortally?
WHEN YOU BLANKET LABEL THE CORPS AS EVIL, ROTTEN A$$HOLES. Do you get it yet?
quote:I can however still speak for what I saw and how I was treated.
Then please have the courtesy when you are referencing THE CORPS as evil/bootlicking/rotten/a$$holes include the phrase "the ones I came in contact with"... please do us that courtesy.
quote:A lot of servicemembners are bone-heads. Okay. So what.
I do notice here that you use the phrase "A lot of"... THAT'S IT RIGHT THERE... DO YOU SEE IT? If you were describing the corps there you would've said "SERVICEMEMBERS ARE BONEHEADS"... but when referring to servicemembers, the military, SOMETHING NEAR TO YOUR HEART... you add the small little words "a lot of"... changes the entire meaning of what your saying... removes the blanket...
Please give us the courtesy as well.
No one knows better than we do that there were "a lot of" corps who were bad...
No one knows better than we do that there were a lot more who weren't.
COMMON COURTESY BROTHER.
AND IF YOU STILL CAN'T REALLY "SEE THAT YOU'RE DOING IT"... LOOK AT THE REACTION HERE, ARE WE ALL JUST IMAGINING IT?
"Galen, By your own admission, the most of the corps you dealt with were at the limb or country or whatever level and you needed class materials. Do I have that right?"
Absolutely.
Each different place that I was stationed or lived, I usually ran a Twig. It worked out such that breifly in '83 we were within a branch, and again in '95-'97. Though most of the we were not within any branch. Living here for a few years, then moving, over and over. We could usually find beleivers whereever we were and piece together a fellowship. But none of that had anything to do with Corpse. When we did need materials, was generally the only dealings that we had with them, usually on the Limb level.
My understanding has been that when sent out into the 'field' most of them were sent to limbs, and they remained within the local area around that limb office. So obviously most areas in the nation where I could possibly be stationed, there was on presence of them.
"Just consider that these people involved in such things were not representative of the masses."
Okay, but wasn't that 'them'?
"Most limbs, and countries as well (I assume) had limited resources. They tended to get pretty protective of their "stuff" and who was using it, for what purpose, etc. I'm not making excuses, just trying to point out that there were many factors involved in running PFAL classes, that maybe you aren't/weren't aware of."
Okay, uh sign people-up / arrange a suitable local / coord refreshments / parking / flip-charts / tapes / send in the money / contact limb to schedule using the tapes/flip-charts.
"There's no doubt that some corps "leaders" were jerks. But it's pretty upsetting for those of us who feel like we did our damndest for people, to be stereotyped. Surely you understand that?"
I understand that some were jerks. We are in agreement, again, thank you.
On 2 occasions, I have been given 'C'-grads to be within my fellowship. Both times I was told that they were on 'in-active' list and would be Twig members and not Coords. In 1990-93, one couple was very nice, wonderful people (The Olsens). Of whom we are still in contact with. They learned their own system of ethics, largely from attending the Corps program and had huge problems with 'leadership' in the field, ethically. I learned a bit about further study of the Bible from them, and they often filled us in on 'inner-dealings' of things with-in the ministry.
The second couple (1992-93) was a lady 'C'-grad who married a non-C-grad (a sailor). Moving to Connecticut was the first time in years that she had not been surrounded with other 'C'-grads. She would complain for hours of how she missed it all. That she had been used to spending all day in contact with other 'C'-grads. She had lived with them, worked at jobs with them, met them through-out each day, and spent every evening attending fellowships with them. When they lived in Ct, she truly went through 'with-drawal's as if she had been addicted. She still traveled 90 minutes twice a week to attend 'C' night at the limb office. Each monthly bill to be paid, each shopping trip, etc, was yet another stand for G-d and oportunity for the Adversary to torment her. After about a year of that I was trasferred. My wife and I were always treated as second-class citizens by her. She openly and constantly told us that we had never acheived our true potiential, and that we could not, without first attending 'C'.
edited to be more gentle:
I do not intend to be insulting to ALL Way Corps grads. I have not met all of them, nor do I intend to (within this life). My observations are limited to those individuals within which I have had dealings. I have been told that the majority of Way Corpse Grads were gentle kind and loving. Such has not been my observations, and I can only speak to that which I have both seen and heard. From among those Corpse of whom I have dealt, the majority of them ended as severely negative experiences. I had assumed that such was always the case with most Average Joe Believers. If anyone takes anything that I have written personally and feels insulted, I apologize. I can only speak concerning those of whom I have dealt with myself. On numerous occasions I have named Corpse Grads who have acted un-kindly and carried themselves in a manner which brought a bad name to Christianity. If you are not among those I have so named, then obviously you were never a complete idiot in your dealings with me. There were always many loving godly believers within TWI, who only wanted to worship G-d and serve others.
"Really, Galen, your reply borders on the disingenuous. Of course you insult me and others I know when you sweep with your generalities--by your count, over 100 and only 4 you find "acceptable". Nice ratio... were these your words"
Certainly they were my words. Did I deal with you? somewhere, sometime? I know not.
Merely meant as a statement of fact, not insulting either way.
By all means I apologize for having offended you so personally.
"Corpse members were certainly a varied bunch. In my limited experience, the over-whelming majority of Corpse were mean nasty a$$holes." What conclusions would anyone draw from that statement??"
That the sentament of average Joe Beleiver was less than impressive.
"If I am unfriendly, what about you??? You come off highly judgemental and prejudicial and you cannot understand why that would offend me?? You act much more dense than I have reason, by your other posts here, to believe."
Fine, obviously you must recall me, and I must have been talking about you.
I am sorry for not remembering you and whatever encounter we have had. I apologize for not having a better memory of you and your stand for G-d.
There were people who acted poorly, they treated others very badly. I saw it, and it brought dis-honour to Christainity. Did that include you? I have no idea. I dont know you. If I simply speak the truth of what I have seen and done, how should it bring such offense to you, a man I dont know. You even think that I dis-like you personally.
"I dont recall ever being within a twig that was led by a corpse person, but I do recall hearing that there were some corpse who were just Twig-coordinators. On the few occassions that I was traveling and found myself in a 'heavily populated area' (meaning a city with dozens of corpse living in it), it did seem that the 'lower' corpse were much nicer and could even possibly be considered human. Almost as human as a regular beleiver."
This was however, how things were presented. At least in my personal experience. There are others here on Greasespot Cafe who seem to also agree that it was the local 'leadership' who engendered the nastiness. Which may have well been the case.
But you must admit that non-'C'/ regular Joe Beleivers were treated as second class people.
Again these were just my impressions, gathered from years of dealing with 'C' grads. In my mind (as well as within other's minds) they did tend to fit into a common stereotype.
Obviously I missed a great deal, by not having worked with you personally. No doubt I would have seen an entirely different side of TWI.
edited to be more gentle:
I do not intend to be insulting to ALL Way Corps grads. I have not met all of them, nor do I intend to (within this life). My observations are limited to those individuals within which I have had dealings. I have been told that the majority of Way Corpse Grads were gentle kind and loving. Such has not been my observations, and I can only speak to that which I have both seen and heard. From among those Corpse of whom I have dealt, the majority of them ended as severely negative experiences. I had assumed that such was always the case with most Average Joe Believers. If anyone takes anything that I have written personally and feels insulted, I apologize. I can only speak concerning those of whom I have dealt with myself. On numerous occasions I have named Corpse Grads who have acted un-kindly and carried themselves in a manner which brought a bad name to Christianity. If you are not among those I have so named, then obviously you were never a complete idiot in your dealings with me. There were always many loving godly believers within TWI, who only wanted to worship G-d and serve others.
"No where did I call ALL corpse evil, did I? But many even here on Greasespot Cafe will agree that their were many Corpse who were very evil and mean and nasty. To say otherwise would be dis-honest, sir."
"That's true, there were many."
"BUT SIR, THERE WERE MANY, MANY, MANY MORE WHO WEREN'T. Yet the tone of your posts does not seem to ever allow for that."
I apologize.
"I'm sorry you didn't get to meet many of them, you have to admit that your exposure to and involvement with TWI was "not the norm". You were on a submarine for a good part of it (from what I understand), and other times you were in the military while doing the outreach."
True.
Obviously there must have been many of whome I did not personally meet, and have the opportunity to know. I was just an average Joe Beleiver, running Twigs and doing the TWI thing.
". . . WHEN YOU BLANKET LABEL THE CORPS AS EVIL, ROTTEN A$$HOLES. see Galen"
Yes, I see.
I apologize for having implied that ALL 'C' were evil.
Obviously not all, Just those in leadership positions of whom I had the dis-honour of dealing with.
". . . have the courtesy when you are referencing THE CORPS as evil/bootlicking/rotten/a$$holes include the phrase "the ones I came in contact with"..."
Certainly.
"No one knows better than we do that there were a lot more who weren't."
That was NOT among my expereince. However on your word, brother, I will attempt to amend my understanding.
edited to be more gentle:
I do not intend to be insulting to ALL Way Corps grads. I have not met all of them, nor do I intend to (within this life). My observations are limited to those individuals within which I have had dealings. I have been told that the majority of Way Corpse Grads were gentle kind and loving. Such has not been my observations, and I can only speak to that which I have both seen and heard. From among those Corpse of whom I have dealt, the majority of them ended as severely negative experiences. I had assumed that such was always the case with most Average Joe Believers. If anyone takes anything that I have written personally and feels insulted, I apologize. I can only speak concerning those of whom I have dealt with myself. On numerous occasions I have named Corpse Grads who have acted un-kindly and carried themselves in a manner which brought a bad name to Christianity. If you are not among those I have so named, then obviously you were never a complete idiot in your dealings with me. There were always many loving godly believers within TWI, who only wanted to worship G-d and serve others.
"My basic problem with leaders was that many local twigs functioned quite well in
absence of corps supervision."
This was a common experience, in many areas that I have traveled through.
"So once HQ got wind of all this they sent down some "professionals" to tell us how
we should really do it. It was horrible. I mean horrible. They killed all growth
and twig attendance plummetted. These guys were such jerks and focused on things like
the cleanliness of someone's car or the lack of attention to how the horn of plenty
was displayed. I thought it was like a practical joke but it wasn't."
Obviously, these were not the normal 'C' grads, as they were all loving and kind. They must have been the 'bad' ones that someone was talking about.
"Of course who did they blame for the slump ? US ! We were ripped up and down. I recall lots
of people leaving and never returning. It was so sad."
A blight.
"Now - Does this experience suggest that all corps people were jerks and horrible people ?
As I've said before I don't think so."
As I had thought, I had said so previously as well. Obviously not ALL were jerks, just the ones that we saw.
". . . . It was so transparent and insulting."
hmm.
edited to be more gentle:
I do not intend to be insulting to ALL Way Corps grads. I have not met all of them, nor do I intend to (within this life). My observations are limited to those individuals within which I have had dealings. I have been told that the majority of Way Corpse Grads were gentle kind and loving. Such has not been my observations, and I can only speak to that which I have both seen and heard. From among those Corpse of whom I have dealt, the majority of them ended as severely negative experiences. I had assumed that such was always the case with most Average Joe Believers. If anyone takes anything that I have written personally and feels insulted, I apologize. I can only speak concerning those of whom I have dealt with myself. On numerous occasions I have named Corpse Grads who have acted un-kindly and carried themselves in a manner which brought a bad name to Christianity. If you are not among those I have so named, then obviously you were never a complete idiot in your dealings with me. There were always many loving godly believers within TWI, who only wanted to worship G-d and serve others.
Galen--we do not know each other, except by this board. My complaints with your words come from the brush with which you, by implication(you DO understand that concept, I trust) tar ALL corps. A group that, as a whole, corps one through 23 or whatever and all the family corps, could not have been less homogenous if it had been planned and purposed that way. When you "smear" your "over 100" in "over 18 years" and however many locations in wayworld, you smear me, you smear my sisters(who have never hurt a fly in all their lives), you smear friends of mine who spent years, at their own expense, moving all over God's creation and never got paid one thin dime to do what they did. Now, the years post-89 I cannot speak to--others eloquently can and have. The way and the corps became progressively more and more a den of theives and liars, from the top down, of course, and with NOTABLE EXCEPTIONS, a number of whom frequent this board. My issue is the EASE with which you dismiss thousands of people you do not, and most likely never will, know at all. If you are happy with that kind of "less than love of God" thinking, you go your merry way, sir. But this is a public board, more or less, and I publicly object to your sentiments. When you tone down your hypebole and admit that you undoubtedly did not even know a fraction of those hundred more than a passing moment's worth, YOUR WORDS will carry FAR more weight.
quote Galen: "Again these were just my impressions, gathered from years of dealing with 'C' grads. In my mind (as well as within other's minds) they did tend to fit into a common stereotype.
Obviously I missed a great deal, by not having worked with you personally. No doubt I would have seen an entirely different side of TWI."
if you are not laying on the sarcasm here, then the answer to that is a categorical YES and there are dozens of others that I know PERSONALLY, by name and for years in which your experience would have been the same. If your blinders will allow you that possibility...
another quote by Galen: "Each different place that I was stationed or lived, I usually ran a Twig. It worked out such that breifly in '83 we were within a branch, and again in '95-'97. Though most of the we were not within any branch. Living here for a few years, then moving, over and over. We could usually find beleivers whereever we were and piece together a fellowship. But none of that had anything to do with Corpse. When we did need materials, was generally the only dealings that we had with them, usually on the Limb level.
My understanding has been that when sent out into the 'field' most of them were sent to limbs, and they remained within the local area around that limb office. So obviously most areas in the nation where I could possibly be stationed, there was on presence of them.
"Just consider that these people involved in such things were not representative of the masses."
Okay, but wasn't that 'them'?"
NO, you are mis-informed completely in the manner, pre-89, in which assignments were given. Most of the corps was sent whereever, and most NOT stuck at/around the limb. Most were twig/branch coordinators--the vast majority. I personally know hundreds that were. And, yes, I knew their names...
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Dot Matrix
Thanks for taking the time to respond.
I think we are in agreement about much. Many times I did not feel this way with your posts. I felt somehow you were defending VPW and condemning the corps. It always baffled me as VPW is the one who "led the corps" now he did have those under him on each campus (his axe men) but it was his philosophy and his "approved research" and thinking that we were taught.
I did know him personally. After reading your response, although you and I will never know for sure, I have a feeling if you had REALLY known VPW you would not have liked him and you would have seen where "the bad corps" got much of their guidance.
you said:
You know, because those ten (hypothetical)loving believers wanted to do more for God, they probably went into the corps and there they were striped of their dignity, individuality and, sometimes if they sold out to VP's corps program, their conscience.
Personally, I did not go in the corps so I could launch a reign of terror on people. I did not go in because I needed respect. I had a house, a converted barn "house" it was large. The kitchen was almost as large as half the house where I currently dwell. I had a job, the pay from which I have never been able to duplicate, I had a car that was only a couple years old and it ran and I had money in the bank. But I still needed Jesus. And I wanted to help others get to know that Jesus.
The "corps" was VPW's program designed for the committed. It was marketed as a great place, "The Way living in Love" where you would be learning about things like how to help people, healing and most of all love.
I wanted to dedicate myself to God and to help people. I was as dissappointed in the "corps program" as you were with the results in most of the people you met who were corps. But I did want you to know Weirwille was behind the training.
JAL was being nice to us and the BOD came down to scream at him because he was TOO nice and after all we were not in a "country club". VPW was the Prez at the time. JAL, at that time, was funny, respectful of people, and kind. Then, IMO, he wasn't
We both saw very nasty corps. Horrible empowered people. We just do not agree on how they got that way. I believe it was VPW and you, not knowing him, I guess kinda leave him out of the equation.
Thank you for your response.
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Kit Sober
Alfakat mentioned Del Duncan and Bxx Mxxxxxxx and I thought of the difference between Judas and Peter.
Both denied Jesus (we do this anytime we screw up) but Peter really repented.
Judas went nuts.
Bxx Mxxxxxxxx and these other guys who trade their heart of flesh for a heart of stone are just nuts.
(When I wrote Bxx Mxxxxxxx after leaving twi he wrote me and told me never to write him again, that I was nuts.)
Hope they trade back for their heart of flesh. They definitely were nicer before.
Hopefully,
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Dot Matrix
Kit:
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alfakat
Galen--you were very obviously burned by corps people. Fine. However, your extrapolation out to the whole 3,4,5000 or so is unwarranted and your age and experience in life should tell you that I should not have to tell you this -- you know better. Do you want me to start disparaging U.S. armed services people with the same prejudice you are showing?? You are a better man than this and more honest so please take off the blinders you have put on...
Now, because I was in the corps, are you going to rail on what I just told you and call me evil???
And come on, gdamn it, vic was in charge--and in ways you CANNOT possibly know about, because you were not there and I, and others, was/were...
will you listen to me spout off about the Submarine Service, Galen??? will you??? really???? c'mon, get honest--you know you won't!! as my old man always said, sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander...please let me know if I need to explain that....
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socks
ex10, your comment about the blue forms made me laugh. I bet there's boxes in closets and garages all over the world that still have some of those in them.
The business about the blue forms was the most hateful of things I experienced in the Way.
Point of fact - my wife and I moved to a large Area in about 82. We had a little twig, and "twig area" which was 2 or 3 twigs depending on the month.
Anyway, for most of the first year I was either not working or working intermittently. Another guy in our twig the same thing for most of that year. There were a few others who had regular "day jobs" and between us all probably only two people with decent incomes. But we all gave what we had and sent it in and we were all pretty happy if not rich. My point, we weren't a "big money" fellowship of people.
Anyway as we got started the second year the local Area coordinator got with me to tell me some news - he'd been doing the books for the previous year and lo n behold! Our twig from the previous year was the SECOND highest ABS'ers in the entire Area, which totaled 3 branches plus our "twig area"..... ??? The highest ABS'ers was a fellowship of long standing grads who were always "# 1".
Which made me scratch my head. How could a bunch like us, a brand new twig in it's first year, be the second highest "givers" in that Area. It didn't make sense till I realized that apparently either we were the only ones who were stupid enough to try and share on a regular basis OR everyone else was poorer than dirt. (actually it was due to one couple for most of the year, whose husband was one of the greatest guys I've ever know and who of course was considered marginal by other Way bosses because he didn't kiss everyone's a$$ on cue).
There were several instances of those kinds of things that happened while I was in Florida - ABS, PFAL registrations, WOW registrations, twig "numbers", split. Our folks always seemed to quietly go about their business and I tried to not get in their hair...yet I always had some Wise Elder on my a$$ telling me what a lousy job I was doing because I didn't do it "the right way" or according to the Holy Rules of Behavior of the Way.
Funny looking back. I was a pretty tweezed "leader" by any standard but I saw some amazing things inbetween failing and succeeding.
:)-->
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Galen
alfakat:
"Galen--you were very obviously burned by corps people."
Only by 'active' corpse people, who were Limb Coord (LC) or LC-suckups or higher. Not by the 4 corpse people that I have known whose focus was on serving G-d and His people. As I have said through-out not ALL corpse, were neccesarily 'bad'.
"Fine. However, your extrapolation out to the whole 3,4,5000 or so is unwarranted and your age and experience in life should tell you that I should not have to tell you this -- _you know better_. Do you want me to start disparaging U.S. armed services people with the same prejudice you are showing?? You are a better man than this and more honest so please take off the blinders you have put on..."
A lot of servicemembners are bone-heads. Okay. So what.
I hear you, and I think I understand what you are saying, though I dont really think that I have such 'blinders' on.
I had thought that VPW ran a large corporation, with multiple locations, training thousands of people. Here on Greasespot Cafe, I have been corrected. He taught each corpse person individually, and each corpse grad modeled their behavior after him. Okay, fine. This was not the empression that I had, but obviously I was in error.
"Now, because I was in the corps, are you going to rail on what I just told you and call me evil???"
No where did I call ALL corpse evil, did I?
But many even here on Greasespot Cafe will agree that their were many Corpse who were very evil and mean and nasty. To say otherwise would be dis-honest, sir.
Now, wait, I have made statements about how we have ALL done wrong. And we have ALL sinned. I know that I certainly have. I was a member of a large organization, that destroyed mens lives. I was led astray and bought into what the organization was doing for many years. I re-enlisted many times. I have worked alongside of men, as we all engested and absorbed hazardous chemicals and radiation, and many of them died. Anyone who complained of medical problems, we wrote-up as malingerers, charged them with crimes, and processed them out. And then later, I defended Muslims as they bickered with and fought Christians. I have been a consenting party to leading men to die, and I have caused men to die.
"And come on, gdamn it, vic was in charge--and in ways you CANNOT possibly know about, because you were not there and I, and others, was/were..."
Okay, I will admit that he was in charge in ways that I have no idea about. WHAT??? How can I possibly agree to such a statement? If I know nothing about it, then I know nothing about it.
"will you listen to me spout off about the Submarine Service, Galen??? will you??? really???? c'mon, get honest--you know you won't!! as my old man always said, sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander...please let me know if I need to explain that...."
Take your best shot.
I think perhaps that you really dont know me, sir. I make statements about me, that to me dont give a ring of truth. If you think I am that shallow, then fine. I am being honest.
Whether goose, or sauce, or what ever, go for it, dude.
In the course of my limited exposure to TWI, I saw people act the way that they did. For me to report what they did, to say here how I saw people handle themselves, is honest. I dont see the dis-honesty in this. You do, fine.
edited to be more gentle:
I do not intend to be insulting to ALL Way Corps grads. I have not met all of them, nor do I intend to (within this life). My observations are limited to those individuals within which I have had dealings. I have been told that the majority of Way Corpse Grads were gentle kind and loving. Such has not been my observations, and I can only speak to that which I have both seen and heard. From among those Corpse of whom I have dealt, the majority of them ended as severely negative experiences. I had assumed that such was always the case with most Average Joe Believers. If anyone takes anything that I have written personally and feels insulted, I apologize. I can only speak concerning those of whom I have dealt with myself. On numerous occasions I have named Corpse Grads who have acted un-kindly and carried themselves in a manner which brought a bad name to Christianity. If you are not among those I have so named, then obviously you were never a complete idiot in your dealings with me. There were always many loving godly believers within TWI, who only wanted to worship G-d and serve others.
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Radar OReilly
Galen,
I am not speaking for Socks, but for myself, a corps grad.
I understand the point he is trying to make. You revere the teachings of VPW but revile (so to speak) his students.
The way corps is and was.....a group of people, from opposite parts of the country, opposite countries of the world. Different educational backgrounds, financial stratas, goals and most of all....PERSONAL SPACE.
We came together for training, training for a lifetime of christian service. Our motives were as varied as our personalities. I PERSONALLY do not know that anyone that I knew or was friends with went into the way corps for any reason other than we wanted to be trained for a lifetime of christian service.
THAT SAID......I totally agree that lots of us were total SCREW UPS, total IDIOTS, total LOOSERS and totally devoid of spiritual judgement and or/spiritual concern for others. ON the other hand, there were PLENTY OF US that were just IDIOTS. We THOUGHT we were being trained for a LIFETIME OF CHRISTIAN SERVICE but we were WRONG.
I am not gonna make a blanket apology for all of the idiots that went thru and graduated from the way corps...that is their cross to bear.
But please, when please listen and consider what Socks says....he and his wife..they leave a legacy of WHAT IT COULD HAVE BEEN in their wake. He isn't wrong.......at least not in this matter. He is speaking for many more of us than even he knows.
Radar
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alfakat
Galen: I said what I said. You are tarring with a wide brush. Period.
Find the word shallow in what I said. I said you don't know what went on and you speak like you do. Period.
I WILL NOT speak to the Submarine Service; THAT is my WHOLE point, capiche???? I was not there where you were-- how could I??
I find your manner offensive, Period. You do not like that about ME, fine. Period.
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ex10
Exactly, socks. Because "success" was measured in dollar amounts and numbers of people.
My husband and I learned that the hard way. The "business" of "a lifetime of Christian service" always came first. Never mind that there were people in our branch who had incredible need, financial, emotional, physical, etc. It always boiled down to numbers of people in classes, and money.
Once we realized this, we decided that we were NOT cut out to be "leaders," in the sense that the corporation demanded. So we opted out, and refused to take any more "corps assignments," that involved doing anything more than running a twig. It was the only HONEST thing we felt like we could do.
Others chose different paths, but I'm here to tell ya, that they HAD TO SELL OUT to the business side of "the ministry," if they wanted to be an "important somebody." Hence, the not so pleasant experience of Galen and others.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
:P-->
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Galen
Radar O'Reilly:
". . . I PERSONALLY do not know that anyone that I knew or was friends with went into the way corps for any reason other than we wanted to be trained for a lifetime of christian service."
A noble purpose.
"I am not gonna make a blanket apology for all of the idiots that went thru and graduated from the way corps...that is their cross to bear."
I dont think that I have ever asked, nor even implied that you should.
"But please, when please listen and consider what Socks says....he and his wife..they leave a legacy of WHAT IT COULD HAVE BEEN in their wake. He isn't wrong.......at least not in this matter. He is speaking for many more of us than even he knows."
Very well.
edited to be more gentle:
I do not intend to be insulting to ALL Way Corps grads. I have not met all of them, nor do I intend to (within this life). My observations are limited to those individuals within which I have had dealings. I have been told that the majority of Way Corpse Grads were gentle kind and loving. Such has not been my observations, and I can only speak to that which I have both seen and heard. From among those Corpse of whom I have dealt, the majority of them ended as severely negative experiences. I had assumed that such was always the case with most Average Joe Believers. If anyone takes anything that I have written personally and feels insulted, I apologize. I can only speak concerning those of whom I have dealt with myself. On numerous occasions I have named Corpse Grads who have acted un-kindly and carried themselves in a manner which brought a bad name to Christianity. If you are not among those I have so named, then obviously you were never a complete idiot in your dealings with me. There were always many loving godly believers within TWI, who only wanted to worship G-d and serve others.
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Galen
alfakat:
"Galen: I said what I said. You are tarring with a wide brush. Period."
Very well.
"Find the word shallow in what I said. I said you don't know what went on and you speak like you do. Period."
I dont know, what 'training' you wen through. I have said this before and will likely say it again. I dont think that I ever did say that I was there.
I can however still speak for what I saw and how I was treated. If that offends you, it is truly bad. Does your mirror image offend you? Does the image of old photograghs offend you as well? I am sorry.
"I WILL NOT speak to the Submarine Service; THAT is my WHOLE point, capiche???? I was not there where you were-- how could I??"
Which has been my point as well. It is good that we agree.
I was not in corpse training, get it?
"I find your manner offensive, Period."
That it too bad.
"You do not like that about ME, fine. Period."
I dont think that I ever said I did not like you.
Did it sound like I said something negative about you?
I dont know you, how could I have insulted you so mortally?
There were people who acted poorly, they treated others very badly. I saw it, and it brought dis-honour to Christainity. Did that include you? I have no idea. I dont know you.
If I simply speak the truth of what I have seen and done, how should it bring such offense to you, a man I dont know. You even think that I dis-like you personally.
Ooops.
edited to be more gentle:
I do not intend to be insulting to ALL Way Corps grads. I have not met all of them, nor do I intend to (within this life). My observations are limited to those individuals within which I have had dealings. I have been told that the majority of Way Corpse Grads were gentle kind and loving. Such has not been my observations, and I can only speak to that which I have both seen and heard. From among those Corpse of whom I have dealt, the majority of them ended as severely negative experiences. I had assumed that such was always the case with most Average Joe Believers. If anyone takes anything that I have written personally and feels insulted, I apologize. I can only speak concerning those of whom I have dealt with myself. On numerous occasions I have named Corpse Grads who have acted un-kindly and carried themselves in a manner which brought a bad name to Christianity. If you are not among those I have so named, then obviously you were never a complete idiot in your dealings with me. There were always many loving godly believers within TWI, who only wanted to worship G-d and serve others.
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Eagle
There were some really great Fellowship coordinators I had dealt with in the past that were not Corps but were better than Corps. Bruce and Debby Watkins were straight from the heart. They broke from the way around 1989 or just before that and continued fellowshipping as best they could. Bruce and Deb always gave of themselves even when times were tough. They never went after anyone to "reprove" or correct. They just spoke the Word and let us handle it from there. It seems from my experience with them that no matter what the trials they went through, they were always delivered. I can't say the same about a lot of Corps but I do wish everyone's deliverance. Does anybody know anyone else that were not Corps that seemed to have the heart meant for a ministry? I believe some people had callings, so to speak, but didn't go in the Corps. They did the Advanced Class and the WOW program and that was that. Perhaps God wanted them to stay out of the Corps. They were such terrific local leaders. I saw them literally financially bail out limb coordinators and other Way Corps who lost in life. To this day, they always kept their doors open to those who wanted to talk about the Word. Of all the people I met in the Way, they were the one's with the greatest heart that I knew.
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ex10
Galen,
By your own admission, the most of the corps you dealt with were at the limb or country or whatever level and you needed class materials. Do I have that right?
Just consider that these people involved in such things were not representative of the masses.
Most limbs, and countries as well (I assume) had limited resources. They tended to get pretty protective of their "stuff" and who was using it, for what purpose, etc. I'm not making excuses, just trying to point out that there were many factors involved in running PFAL classes, that maybe you aren't/weren't aware of.
There's no doubt that some corps "leaders" were jerks. But it's pretty upsetting for those of us who feel like we did our damndest for people, to be stereotyped. Surely you understand that?
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alfakat
Really, Galen, your reply borders on the disingenuous. Of course you insult me and others I know when you sweep with your generalities--by your count, over 100 and only 4 you find "acceptable". Nice ratio... were these your words?--"Corpse members were certainly a varied bunch. In my limited experience, the over-whelming majority of Corpse were mean nasty a$$holes." What conclusions would anyone draw from that statement??----
"I have probably seen 100 corpse over the course of 18 years, between my wife and I, we can count how many we ever knew the names of on the fingers of 2 hands, of those 4 turned out to be nice. (I am hesitant to say ‘loving’). In limb meetings, at limb offices, etc, I have seen and dealt with many more green name tag wearers, who I never knew their names, but were less friendly than a scorpion in my shorts."
If I am unfriendly, what about you??? You come off highly judgemental and prejudicial and you cannot understand why that would offend me?? You act much more dense than I have reason, by your other posts here, to believe.
""You do not like that about ME, fine. Period."
I dont think that I ever said I did not like you.
Did it sound like I said something negative about you?
I dont know you, how could I have insulted you so mortally?
There were people who acted poorly, they treated others very badly. I saw it, and it brought dis-honour to Christainity. Did that include you? I have no idea. I dont know you.
If I simply speak the truth of what I have seen and done, how should it bring such offense to you, a man I dont know. You even think that I dis-like you personally.
Ooops."---- My statement was suppositional, based upon YOUR prior statement--ya know, all korks are a-holes, mean, nasty, dog-kickers, whatever...I figured you would most likely be lumping me in there, considering YOUR over 100 to 4 ratio, in YOUR OWN stated experience. Did I mis-read you ?? ....
or are YOU mis-reading me, lumping me in with your prior experience?? not to mention many friends of mine over the years, who also don't fit your stereotype....
here is another statement of yours, Galen--thanks for thinking that I "might" be human--no pre-judice there...sheeesh
"I could agree with that summation.
I dont recall ever being within a twig that was led by a corpse person, but I do recall hearing that there were some corpse who were just Twig-coordinators. On the few occassions that I was traveling and found myself in a 'heavily populated area' (meaning a city with dozens of corpse living in it), it did seem that the 'lower' corpse were much nicer and could even possibly be considered human. Almost as human as a regular beleiver.
So it would be a reasonable idea that the 'nasty / evil / boot-licking / a$$hole' characteristics may have been painted on thicker as a person climbed higher up the ladder."
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Tom Strange
Galen said:
That's true, there were many.BUT SIR, THERE WERE MANY, MANY, MANY MORE WHO WEREN'T. Yet the tone of your posts does not seem to ever allow for that.
I'm sorry you didn't get to meet many of them, you have to admit that your exposure to and involvement with TWI was "not the norm". You were on a submarine for a good part of it (from what I understand), and other times you were in the military while doing the outreach.
You also said to Alfakat:
YES YOU DID, WHEN YOU BLANKET LABEL THE CORPS AS EVIL, ROTTEN A$$HOLES. see Galen, Alfakat was corps, but he wasn't and evil, rotten a$$hole.WHEN YOU BLANKET LABEL THE CORPS AS EVIL, ROTTEN A$$HOLES. Do you get it yet?Then please have the courtesy when you are referencing THE CORPS as evil/bootlicking/rotten/a$$holes include the phrase "the ones I came in contact with"... please do us that courtesy.I do notice here that you use the phrase "A lot of"... THAT'S IT RIGHT THERE... DO YOU SEE IT? If you were describing the corps there you would've said "SERVICEMEMBERS ARE BONEHEADS"... but when referring to servicemembers, the military, SOMETHING NEAR TO YOUR HEART... you add the small little words "a lot of"... changes the entire meaning of what your saying... removes the blanket...Please give us the courtesy as well.
No one knows better than we do that there were "a lot of" corps who were bad...
No one knows better than we do that there were a lot more who weren't.
COMMON COURTESY BROTHER.
AND IF YOU STILL CAN'T REALLY "SEE THAT YOU'RE DOING IT"... LOOK AT THE REACTION HERE, ARE WE ALL JUST IMAGINING IT?
Have you even read the PT I sent you last night?
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diazbro
My basic problem with leaders was that
many local twigs functioned quite well in
absence of corps supervision. My first Twig
rapidly grew to be huge - like at times 50 people - and we had lots of classes going
on and planned activities. The WOWs that
were heading up the Twig basically let us
organize and plan things (though they still
wanted to teach the bulk of the time but
even that changed over time).
So once HQ got wind of all this they sent
down some "professionals" to tell us how
we should really do it. It was horrible.
I mean horrible. They killed all growth
and twig attendance plummetted. These guys
were such jerks and focused on things like
the cleanliness of someone's car or the
lack of attention to how the horn of plenty
was displayed. I thought it was like a practical
joke but it wasn't.
Of course who did they blame for the slump ?
US ! We were ripped up and down. I recall lots
of people leaving and never returning. It was
so sad.
Now - Does this experience suggest that all
corps people were jerks and horrible people ?
As I've said before I don't think so. But
the fact that something like I described could
happen with the blessing of HQ suggests that
they were auhtorized to behave in this fashion. They certainly weren't discouraged form behaving like control freak aholes.
As I mentioned before - at times like this
someone would show up and try to buddy up
with us all - make nice and try to brush over
the badness that had just happened. It was so
transparent and insulting.
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alfakat
Diazbro--would you mind telling us time frame and, if you can, location where you were? Time frame would definitely say a lot....
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Galen
ex10:
"Galen, By your own admission, the most of the corps you dealt with were at the limb or country or whatever level and you needed class materials. Do I have that right?"
Absolutely.
Each different place that I was stationed or lived, I usually ran a Twig. It worked out such that breifly in '83 we were within a branch, and again in '95-'97. Though most of the we were not within any branch. Living here for a few years, then moving, over and over. We could usually find beleivers whereever we were and piece together a fellowship. But none of that had anything to do with Corpse. When we did need materials, was generally the only dealings that we had with them, usually on the Limb level.
My understanding has been that when sent out into the 'field' most of them were sent to limbs, and they remained within the local area around that limb office. So obviously most areas in the nation where I could possibly be stationed, there was on presence of them.
"Just consider that these people involved in such things were not representative of the masses."
Okay, but wasn't that 'them'?
"Most limbs, and countries as well (I assume) had limited resources. They tended to get pretty protective of their "stuff" and who was using it, for what purpose, etc. I'm not making excuses, just trying to point out that there were many factors involved in running PFAL classes, that maybe you aren't/weren't aware of."
Okay, uh sign people-up / arrange a suitable local / coord refreshments / parking / flip-charts / tapes / send in the money / contact limb to schedule using the tapes/flip-charts.
"There's no doubt that some corps "leaders" were jerks. But it's pretty upsetting for those of us who feel like we did our damndest for people, to be stereotyped. Surely you understand that?"
I understand that some were jerks. We are in agreement, again, thank you.
On 2 occasions, I have been given 'C'-grads to be within my fellowship. Both times I was told that they were on 'in-active' list and would be Twig members and not Coords. In 1990-93, one couple was very nice, wonderful people (The Olsens). Of whom we are still in contact with. They learned their own system of ethics, largely from attending the Corps program and had huge problems with 'leadership' in the field, ethically. I learned a bit about further study of the Bible from them, and they often filled us in on 'inner-dealings' of things with-in the ministry.
The second couple (1992-93) was a lady 'C'-grad who married a non-C-grad (a sailor). Moving to Connecticut was the first time in years that she had not been surrounded with other 'C'-grads. She would complain for hours of how she missed it all. That she had been used to spending all day in contact with other 'C'-grads. She had lived with them, worked at jobs with them, met them through-out each day, and spent every evening attending fellowships with them. When they lived in Ct, she truly went through 'with-drawal's as if she had been addicted. She still traveled 90 minutes twice a week to attend 'C' night at the limb office. Each monthly bill to be paid, each shopping trip, etc, was yet another stand for G-d and oportunity for the Adversary to torment her. After about a year of that I was trasferred. My wife and I were always treated as second-class citizens by her. She openly and constantly told us that we had never acheived our true potiential, and that we could not, without first attending 'C'.
edited to be more gentle:
I do not intend to be insulting to ALL Way Corps grads. I have not met all of them, nor do I intend to (within this life). My observations are limited to those individuals within which I have had dealings. I have been told that the majority of Way Corpse Grads were gentle kind and loving. Such has not been my observations, and I can only speak to that which I have both seen and heard. From among those Corpse of whom I have dealt, the majority of them ended as severely negative experiences. I had assumed that such was always the case with most Average Joe Believers. If anyone takes anything that I have written personally and feels insulted, I apologize. I can only speak concerning those of whom I have dealt with myself. On numerous occasions I have named Corpse Grads who have acted un-kindly and carried themselves in a manner which brought a bad name to Christianity. If you are not among those I have so named, then obviously you were never a complete idiot in your dealings with me. There were always many loving godly believers within TWI, who only wanted to worship G-d and serve others.
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Galen
alfakat:
"Really, Galen, your reply borders on the disingenuous. Of course you insult me and others I know when you sweep with your generalities--by your count, over 100 and only 4 you find "acceptable". Nice ratio... were these your words"
Certainly they were my words. Did I deal with you? somewhere, sometime? I know not.
Merely meant as a statement of fact, not insulting either way.
By all means I apologize for having offended you so personally.
"Corpse members were certainly a varied bunch. In my limited experience, the over-whelming majority of Corpse were mean nasty a$$holes." What conclusions would anyone draw from that statement??"
That the sentament of average Joe Beleiver was less than impressive.
"If I am unfriendly, what about you??? You come off highly judgemental and prejudicial and you cannot understand why that would offend me?? You act much more dense than I have reason, by your other posts here, to believe."
Fine, obviously you must recall me, and I must have been talking about you.
I am sorry for not remembering you and whatever encounter we have had. I apologize for not having a better memory of you and your stand for G-d.
There were people who acted poorly, they treated others very badly. I saw it, and it brought dis-honour to Christainity. Did that include you? I have no idea. I dont know you. If I simply speak the truth of what I have seen and done, how should it bring such offense to you, a man I dont know. You even think that I dis-like you personally.
"I dont recall ever being within a twig that was led by a corpse person, but I do recall hearing that there were some corpse who were just Twig-coordinators. On the few occassions that I was traveling and found myself in a 'heavily populated area' (meaning a city with dozens of corpse living in it), it did seem that the 'lower' corpse were much nicer and could even possibly be considered human. Almost as human as a regular beleiver."
This was however, how things were presented. At least in my personal experience. There are others here on Greasespot Cafe who seem to also agree that it was the local 'leadership' who engendered the nastiness. Which may have well been the case.
But you must admit that non-'C'/ regular Joe Beleivers were treated as second class people.
Again these were just my impressions, gathered from years of dealing with 'C' grads. In my mind (as well as within other's minds) they did tend to fit into a common stereotype.
Obviously I missed a great deal, by not having worked with you personally. No doubt I would have seen an entirely different side of TWI.
edited to be more gentle:
I do not intend to be insulting to ALL Way Corps grads. I have not met all of them, nor do I intend to (within this life). My observations are limited to those individuals within which I have had dealings. I have been told that the majority of Way Corpse Grads were gentle kind and loving. Such has not been my observations, and I can only speak to that which I have both seen and heard. From among those Corpse of whom I have dealt, the majority of them ended as severely negative experiences. I had assumed that such was always the case with most Average Joe Believers. If anyone takes anything that I have written personally and feels insulted, I apologize. I can only speak concerning those of whom I have dealt with myself. On numerous occasions I have named Corpse Grads who have acted un-kindly and carried themselves in a manner which brought a bad name to Christianity. If you are not among those I have so named, then obviously you were never a complete idiot in your dealings with me. There were always many loving godly believers within TWI, who only wanted to worship G-d and serve others.
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Galen
Tom Strange:
"No where did I call ALL corpse evil, did I? But many even here on Greasespot Cafe will agree that their were many Corpse who were very evil and mean and nasty. To say otherwise would be dis-honest, sir."
"That's true, there were many."
"BUT SIR, THERE WERE MANY, MANY, MANY MORE WHO WEREN'T. Yet the tone of your posts does not seem to ever allow for that."
I apologize.
"I'm sorry you didn't get to meet many of them, you have to admit that your exposure to and involvement with TWI was "not the norm". You were on a submarine for a good part of it (from what I understand), and other times you were in the military while doing the outreach."
True.
Obviously there must have been many of whome I did not personally meet, and have the opportunity to know. I was just an average Joe Beleiver, running Twigs and doing the TWI thing.
". . . WHEN YOU BLANKET LABEL THE CORPS AS EVIL, ROTTEN A$$HOLES. see Galen"
Yes, I see.
I apologize for having implied that ALL 'C' were evil.
Obviously not all, Just those in leadership positions of whom I had the dis-honour of dealing with.
". . . have the courtesy when you are referencing THE CORPS as evil/bootlicking/rotten/a$$holes include the phrase "the ones I came in contact with"..."
Certainly.
"No one knows better than we do that there were a lot more who weren't."
That was NOT among my expereince. However on your word, brother, I will attempt to amend my understanding.
edited to be more gentle:
I do not intend to be insulting to ALL Way Corps grads. I have not met all of them, nor do I intend to (within this life). My observations are limited to those individuals within which I have had dealings. I have been told that the majority of Way Corpse Grads were gentle kind and loving. Such has not been my observations, and I can only speak to that which I have both seen and heard. From among those Corpse of whom I have dealt, the majority of them ended as severely negative experiences. I had assumed that such was always the case with most Average Joe Believers. If anyone takes anything that I have written personally and feels insulted, I apologize. I can only speak concerning those of whom I have dealt with myself. On numerous occasions I have named Corpse Grads who have acted un-kindly and carried themselves in a manner which brought a bad name to Christianity. If you are not among those I have so named, then obviously you were never a complete idiot in your dealings with me. There were always many loving godly believers within TWI, who only wanted to worship G-d and serve others.
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Galen
diazbro:
"My basic problem with leaders was that many local twigs functioned quite well in
absence of corps supervision."
This was a common experience, in many areas that I have traveled through.
"So once HQ got wind of all this they sent down some "professionals" to tell us how
we should really do it. It was horrible. I mean horrible. They killed all growth
and twig attendance plummetted. These guys were such jerks and focused on things like
the cleanliness of someone's car or the lack of attention to how the horn of plenty
was displayed. I thought it was like a practical joke but it wasn't."
Obviously, these were not the normal 'C' grads, as they were all loving and kind. They must have been the 'bad' ones that someone was talking about.
"Of course who did they blame for the slump ? US ! We were ripped up and down. I recall lots
of people leaving and never returning. It was so sad."
A blight.
"Now - Does this experience suggest that all corps people were jerks and horrible people ?
As I've said before I don't think so."
As I had thought, I had said so previously as well. Obviously not ALL were jerks, just the ones that we saw.
". . . . It was so transparent and insulting."
hmm.
edited to be more gentle:
I do not intend to be insulting to ALL Way Corps grads. I have not met all of them, nor do I intend to (within this life). My observations are limited to those individuals within which I have had dealings. I have been told that the majority of Way Corpse Grads were gentle kind and loving. Such has not been my observations, and I can only speak to that which I have both seen and heard. From among those Corpse of whom I have dealt, the majority of them ended as severely negative experiences. I had assumed that such was always the case with most Average Joe Believers. If anyone takes anything that I have written personally and feels insulted, I apologize. I can only speak concerning those of whom I have dealt with myself. On numerous occasions I have named Corpse Grads who have acted un-kindly and carried themselves in a manner which brought a bad name to Christianity. If you are not among those I have so named, then obviously you were never a complete idiot in your dealings with me. There were always many loving godly believers within TWI, who only wanted to worship G-d and serve others.
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alfakat
Galen--we do not know each other, except by this board. My complaints with your words come from the brush with which you, by implication(you DO understand that concept, I trust) tar ALL corps. A group that, as a whole, corps one through 23 or whatever and all the family corps, could not have been less homogenous if it had been planned and purposed that way. When you "smear" your "over 100" in "over 18 years" and however many locations in wayworld, you smear me, you smear my sisters(who have never hurt a fly in all their lives), you smear friends of mine who spent years, at their own expense, moving all over God's creation and never got paid one thin dime to do what they did. Now, the years post-89 I cannot speak to--others eloquently can and have. The way and the corps became progressively more and more a den of theives and liars, from the top down, of course, and with NOTABLE EXCEPTIONS, a number of whom frequent this board. My issue is the EASE with which you dismiss thousands of people you do not, and most likely never will, know at all. If you are happy with that kind of "less than love of God" thinking, you go your merry way, sir. But this is a public board, more or less, and I publicly object to your sentiments. When you tone down your hypebole and admit that you undoubtedly did not even know a fraction of those hundred more than a passing moment's worth, YOUR WORDS will carry FAR more weight.
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alfakat
quote Galen: "Again these were just my impressions, gathered from years of dealing with 'C' grads. In my mind (as well as within other's minds) they did tend to fit into a common stereotype.
Obviously I missed a great deal, by not having worked with you personally. No doubt I would have seen an entirely different side of TWI."
if you are not laying on the sarcasm here, then the answer to that is a categorical YES and there are dozens of others that I know PERSONALLY, by name and for years in which your experience would have been the same. If your blinders will allow you that possibility...
another quote by Galen: "Each different place that I was stationed or lived, I usually ran a Twig. It worked out such that breifly in '83 we were within a branch, and again in '95-'97. Though most of the we were not within any branch. Living here for a few years, then moving, over and over. We could usually find beleivers whereever we were and piece together a fellowship. But none of that had anything to do with Corpse. When we did need materials, was generally the only dealings that we had with them, usually on the Limb level.
My understanding has been that when sent out into the 'field' most of them were sent to limbs, and they remained within the local area around that limb office. So obviously most areas in the nation where I could possibly be stationed, there was on presence of them.
"Just consider that these people involved in such things were not representative of the masses."
Okay, but wasn't that 'them'?"
NO, you are mis-informed completely in the manner, pre-89, in which assignments were given. Most of the corps was sent whereever, and most NOT stuck at/around the limb. Most were twig/branch coordinators--the vast majority. I personally know hundreds that were. And, yes, I knew their names...
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Tom Strange
Galen said:
Thank you. I appreciate it and I know others will as well.Link to comment
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