I cannot agree with that, MO. He was a freakin' ZOMBIE for at least a year and a half to two years of that time, alternately withdrawn and depressed and full of anger and combative. I would say only during the last 6-9 months did he begin to come out of it and begin to formulate his plans. This is based on my first-hand observance and the testimony of some of my closest friends who witnessed the full 3+ years up close and personal. Ask catcup; ask TheEvan...
aflakcat... I'm taking MO's post as her ideas on what was happening during that time, isn't it possible that when he was "alternately withdrawn and depressed" that he was trying to figure out some way out of the mess he'd gotten into?
both accounts would kind of "gel"... ya know?
or was he just a "slobbering idiot" then? (as opposed to a "spitting idiot")
Well, for what it's worth, I heard that ole Craiggers was pretty heavily medicated for a while during the fog. I don't know for how long, but...he was so unable to function that he was under the care of a psychiatrist (who was in the corps.)
see, TS, dats what I'm talkin about!! he did not get cold and calculating til very late in that 3+ year period--he just did not have it in him for a long stretch....
i wasn't around during the fog or pledging allegiance
i always believed geer to be a sicko. i wondered about the passing of the poop. i thought it could have been the general dictating his final orders to the buck private or the buck private could have made plenty of it up
i felt sorry for don at least and maybe even others mentioned
the thing about the USA way corps being responsible for the downfall of the ministry was so typically geer but wierwille also
I hear what you are saying Alfakat I know what others who were definitely closer to Cragers than I was have said And I'm not denying what happened at all.
What I am saying (and I know through personal experience) is that even tho' you just can't face getting out of bed in the morning it doen't mean that your mind isn't working on how to get out of the mess you are in.
In fact, if anything,,your mind, freed from the normal day to day routine, has even more time to dwell on the mess and come up with some pretty bizarre ideas how how to get out of it and get even.
I am many things but not a sociopath.
In my mind LCM is a socoiopath which makes those ruminations of an even more virulent kind. He may not have had the wherewithall to put his ideas into full action until the last part of the FOg--but those plans had been long in the making.
An emotional state characterized by sadness, unhappiness, anhedonia, helplessness, hopelessness, dejection, futility, and worthlessness
Paranoia:
A term used to describe behavior that usually results from delusions and an impaired contact with reality but not necessarily with the severe disorganization observed in schizophrenia.
Delusional Disorder:
A type of psychotic disorder characterized by a delusional system.
Are these all necessarily mutually exclusive? I don't think so. Seeing the failing of a delusional system could cause depression, yes? What better way to try to hold yourself together than blame others? It worked for Hitler, Stalin, and others. Many deranged despots have suffered from severe depression but it didn't make them passive.
Also, medication may treat one but who's to say what the side affects were?
yes, mo, see what you are saying...I guess maybe TS is right--I still think there was some serious fog but lcm was writing stuff down by Bic-lighter light, all the time...
Wow. Psychiatrist, huh? That's pretty heavy and gloomy. Don't know if it's true, but I can see the possibility that during the first 2 - 2 1/2 yrs of the fog he was so shell shocked that everybody was flaming him that he condemned himself exceedingly..."I never walked with God, I'm no man of God, it was all a delusion, what a fool I am, oh God what should I do..."...and it took Donna and Rosalie et al much effort to get him to think he really WAS a MOG again. Only the "new and improved" MOG had just got up from the "pet sematary" and acted like it.
I heard about the medication, too, ex10 - from a very reliable source who was close to that psychiatrist.
And I also agree with Alfakat - down to that 6-9 months of the anesthesia wearing off. It was that time that he got his Galatians teachings together and put all that hate towards Geer and anyone who believed that Geer was the MoG. Any of you who heard those tapes will know what he said about the debbil spurts that CG must have had.
But the first 2 1/2 years after PoP, he was a turnip.
I'm sure that CG had a lot of people pushing buttons at HQ's. Quite a few people were fired and/or maligned by the BOT under Chris' guidance. I'm not saying Craig isn't to blame, I'm saying that CG was definitely giving orders.
I remember being told that before the BOT made any decisions for TWI, they had to run it by Chris first because they were so effin' unspiritual that any decision made by them was probably influenced by devil spirits.
Exie - do you remember sitting together at the Corps week reading of PoP - smoking cigarettes and making comments about poor CG having to clean the steps in Gartmore? Gawd - if you hadn't been there, I might have taken it seriously!
When Craig got hit with the poop paper, it really threw him for a loop. On his way back from visiting Gartmore at CG's behest, and being hit full face with CG's accusations out of the blue, Craig diverted his plans and had a little stopover at O'Hare on the way home. He called in Fr*nK Sc**fe who was ordained clergy and a trusted friend at the time to quick come to the airport and talk to him.... it was an emergency.
Before Fr*nk even got home, he immediately called me and insisted I pray with him right now for Craig. Fr*nk said Craig was in such dire mental straits, he was truly afraid that without divine intervention Criag would commit suicide before he even got back to HQ. It was THAT BAD.
For some length of time, Craig was definitely depressed and confused. He was like a whipped puppy. Used to everyone beating up on him verbally and insulting him to his face and publicly. I am convinced that for some time he was simply "handled" by close friends.
I went to see him in his suite at Word in Business, probably in 87 (?) --when it was in Chicago. This was shortly after Ralph et al and the incident at I think the Ohio TC's meeting? Anyway, Ralph publicly confronted him-- a big scene. When Craig let me in, I had never seen him like that before. He was not himself. He never looked at me, just let me in and stood there with his arms folded across his chest like he was waiting for me to lay into him. I really felt so sad for him at that time. That day, I talked with him at length about Job and the miserable comforters. That seemed to move him. Nothing else I said did.
I had written several letters to the trustees at around that time, confrontational ones, and even got an apology from Don Wierwille in response (BTW, he was the ONLY trustee to apologize to me for "misrepresenting God" And I respect him for that).
After talking with Craig at WIB, I was convinced that he was sorry for whatever mistakes he had made and he wanted to correct the problems. Because I felt he was sincere, I told him he had my support, and from that time onward I and my husband did everything we could to help him, encourage him, and support him with research and in teaching. My encouragement from Job was this: Job was repentant. And God gave Job back double. And if God did that for Job, he can do it for you and the ministry: double the people, double the quality of the Word. Double. It's a promise from God.
There were several people around him, not just us, who encouraged Craig. I know I sent him among other things, some stuff on Galatians on what it was to help someone overtaken in a fault. Someone else also I believe in the 17th Corps (?) did the same. This and other support encouraged him to take charge of his own life and find a way up and out of his depression.
I believe he was very truthful with TWC when he shared what a mental fog he was in. I saw it. I wasn't the only one, either. I can't vouch for what he may have been medicated with for some time, but I don't doubt that he was. He surely could have used it and if he did, it probably saved his life at the time.
As for him planning anything during 87-89, I don't think so. Just getting from one day to the next was about all he could do until he got his feet back underneath him.
I believe he could have turned things around right about the time he understood he had made some mistakes and seemed to me to be sorry and wanted to correct them. He understood God forgave him and wanted to move forward, but was still suffering an onslaught of abuse (spell that consequences) from people he had offended.
Hence, the miserable comforter connection. That was comforting to a certain extent and I encouraged him in using that scripture to enable his recovery.
In my opinion, due to my unique point of view (and yours may differ-- that's fine with me and I will not argue with it), I think Craig was at a crossroads at this point and if he so desired, could have made a big turnaround for himself and for TWI, if he were truly repentant. However, he took the wrong fork in the road.
Instead of concentrating on correcting his own problems and those at HQ, Craig railed on those who were accusing him of sins he felt God had forgiven him for.
Instead of understanding those things as consequences of his own behavior and accepting it and moving beyond it to take responsibility, apologize, and fix the problems, he drew a bead on CG and anyone who had opposed him and was still opposing him, and let his anger dominate his thinking. IMO, opening and yielding to his anger opened a spiritual pandora's box.
Instead of attending to his own issues, Craig buried the truth regarding his own mistakes instead of honestly admitting them. He never got around to understanding he did in fact NOT have a right to any woman he chose.
As soon as he got his confidence back, he let his anger grow to monstrous and uncontrollable proportions against people he felt had betrayed him.
Then Craig honed in on his pet projects of "cleaning out the household" of anyone who he felt might betray him again, and unleashing torrents of anger toward them, and exploiting any other issues or people he desired.
I believe had he truly been repentant, things could have changed. Because when ANYONE repents truly, God can then work with them and work miracles if a person is willing.
But there was not a willing nor repentant heart.
And he became threefold the child of hell he was before, exploiting the weak and perverting the doctrine.
That's my point of view, my opinions, from my own unique perspective. Yours may differ. That's your right.
I thank those who were in the thick of things for their words--Maybe I have judged LCM too harshly these many years--I am Sorry that he did not follow those who wanted to right the wrongs--
I don't know. It's part of God's job, but it is also part of ours, and required in order to separate good from evil, right from wrong.
The harsh light of the truth needs to be shed on what occurred inside that cornfield cult.
And the harsh light of the truth is what Craig needs to apply to what he did. Or it may eventually destroy him.
He is the one who has to come to grips and be honest before God about what he did to his sisters and brothers in Christ-- without trying to rationalize or justify his actions.
And he needs to make reparations in some form or fashion. As much for himself as for anyone he apologizes to or compensates for losses he caused.
He is the one who has to live with what he did.
I mean... there were countless marriages broken up and lives destroyed.... and I mean destroyed. Only God knows how many people physically died because of the doctrines and treatment by those who represented the interests of The Way International and carried out Martindale's demands. Untold numbers of suicides occurred because people could not live with what was done to them. How does a person come to acknowledge their responsibility in something like that?
But I fear that the only way he can live with it is to deny his responsibility. Take a look at the Nuremburg trials. People either denied responsibility outright or proudly declared what they did was justified.
If the man truly comes to grips with the extent of the damage he caused to so many thousands of peole, it will be an impossible load to carry alone.
And in the end, it may do him in anyway. Unfortunate, but guilt can do this to a person.
I'm sure he knows how to find me if he wants to talk. I'm willing to listen.
If what we think about LCM is correct, that he has narcissistic/sociopathic traits, then what happened to him at the time of the POP is what is called a narcissistic injury.
Narcissists actually have BIG self-esteem issues. They are a big walking hurt. They decide that they will not let anybody hurt them so deeply ever again, and craft a false Self, desperately seeking people to admire that Self, convincing themselves that they are important, because they are admired. But it is the false Self that is admired, and narcissists tend to resent the very people they set up to admire them, especially those that are closest to them.
In a narcissistic injury, a person or circumstance cuts through the facade and causes the narcissist to doubt his validity. One of the few times a Narcissist will seek help is when this happens to him, as in a divorce or job loss or other major life trauma. But once the immediate trauma is past, the narcissist will again shore up his mental boundaries, often belittling the therapist or doctor who tried to help him.
In Craig, from what you have said, it is easy to see that he was looking for admiration for his false Self, the MOGFODAT. Who was the star of the ballet? He was. Who was to stand in the gap? He was. Who was bringing the household into the promised land of the prevailing Word (gag me)? He was. Who got the Word over the world? He did, if you believe what he said.
He got wounded by the death of Wierwille and the subsequent accusations of G**r. But he came back stronger than ever. That is, until the BOD could no longer cover for him.
Regards,
Shaz
(Edited to fix the grammar and spelling a bit!)
[This message was edited by shazdancer on March 25, 2004 at 5:08.]
quote:And the harsh light of the truth is what Craig needs to apply to what he did. Or it may eventually destroy him.
He is the one who has to come to grips and be honest before God about what he did to his sisters and brothers in Christ-- without trying to rationalize or justify his actions.
And he needs to make reparations in some form or fashion. As much for himself as for anyone he apologizes to or compensates for losses he caused.
He is the one who has to live with what he did.
Infamous people like Martindale, Wierwille, and other despots and vile persons almost never come clean and admit their wrong doings, much less make anything like an honest attempt at reparations.
They will either deny any wrong doing at all, blame the devil, or blame the victims. Like the sex perp who rapes a 5-year-old kid and says, "she asked for it", they are incapable of real honesty. - Too far gone.
I would be surprised if Martindale ever made any kind of apology or restitution for the damage he did. But we can hope anyway if not for his sake then for the sake of those he harmed.
I was going to say that, not as well as you did, but to share how a man with such a huge ego could be depressed and on meds.
Mind you, it had nothing to do with the fact HE MIGHT BE WRONG, but everything to do with the "injury" HE suffered at the hands of Geer and other believers...
I also heard of the depression and meds from a reliable source.
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alfakat
I cannot agree with that, MO. He was a freakin' ZOMBIE for at least a year and a half to two years of that time, alternately withdrawn and depressed and full of anger and combative. I would say only during the last 6-9 months did he begin to come out of it and begin to formulate his plans. This is based on my first-hand observance and the testimony of some of my closest friends who witnessed the full 3+ years up close and personal. Ask catcup; ask TheEvan...
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Tom Strange
aflakcat... I'm taking MO's post as her ideas on what was happening during that time, isn't it possible that when he was "alternately withdrawn and depressed" that he was trying to figure out some way out of the mess he'd gotten into?
both accounts would kind of "gel"... ya know?
or was he just a "slobbering idiot" then? (as opposed to a "spitting idiot")
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ex10
Well, for what it's worth, I heard that ole Craiggers was pretty heavily medicated for a while during the fog. I don't know for how long, but...he was so unable to function that he was under the care of a psychiatrist (who was in the corps.)
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alfakat
see, TS, dats what I'm talkin about!! he did not get cold and calculating til very late in that 3+ year period--he just did not have it in him for a long stretch....
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excathedra
i wasn't around during the fog or pledging allegiance
i always believed geer to be a sicko. i wondered about the passing of the poop. i thought it could have been the general dictating his final orders to the buck private or the buck private could have made plenty of it up
i felt sorry for don at least and maybe even others mentioned
the thing about the USA way corps being responsible for the downfall of the ministry was so typically geer but wierwille also
i don't know. my memory is foggy....
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templelady
I hear what you are saying Alfakat I know what others who were definitely closer to Cragers than I was have said And I'm not denying what happened at all.
What I am saying (and I know through personal experience) is that even tho' you just can't face getting out of bed in the morning it doen't mean that your mind isn't working on how to get out of the mess you are in.
In fact, if anything,,your mind, freed from the normal day to day routine, has even more time to dwell on the mess and come up with some pretty bizarre ideas how how to get out of it and get even.
I am many things but not a sociopath.
In my mind LCM is a socoiopath which makes those ruminations of an even more virulent kind. He may not have had the wherewithall to put his ideas into full action until the last part of the FOg--but those plans had been long in the making.
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JustThinking
Depression:
An emotional state characterized by sadness, unhappiness, anhedonia, helplessness, hopelessness, dejection, futility, and worthlessness
Paranoia:
A term used to describe behavior that usually results from delusions and an impaired contact with reality but not necessarily with the severe disorganization observed in schizophrenia.
Delusional Disorder:
A type of psychotic disorder characterized by a delusional system.
Are these all necessarily mutually exclusive? I don't think so. Seeing the failing of a delusional system could cause depression, yes? What better way to try to hold yourself together than blame others? It worked for Hitler, Stalin, and others. Many deranged despots have suffered from severe depression but it didn't make them passive.
Also, medication may treat one but who's to say what the side affects were?
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alfakat
yes, mo, see what you are saying...I guess maybe TS is right--I still think there was some serious fog but lcm was writing stuff down by Bic-lighter light, all the time...
ok, I can go with that...
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Tom Strange
oh no templelady!
Godwin's Law!
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alfakat
well, apparently, earlier on in the period he was rather passive, jt. But he sure woke up sometime in there, that's for damn sure.
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johniam
Wow. Psychiatrist, huh? That's pretty heavy and gloomy. Don't know if it's true, but I can see the possibility that during the first 2 - 2 1/2 yrs of the fog he was so shell shocked that everybody was flaming him that he condemned himself exceedingly..."I never walked with God, I'm no man of God, it was all a delusion, what a fool I am, oh God what should I do..."...and it took Donna and Rosalie et al much effort to get him to think he really WAS a MOG again. Only the "new and improved" MOG had just got up from the "pet sematary" and acted like it.
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Hope R.
I heard about the medication, too, ex10 - from a very reliable source who was close to that psychiatrist.
And I also agree with Alfakat - down to that 6-9 months of the anesthesia wearing off. It was that time that he got his Galatians teachings together and put all that hate towards Geer and anyone who believed that Geer was the MoG. Any of you who heard those tapes will know what he said about the debbil spurts that CG must have had.
But the first 2 1/2 years after PoP, he was a turnip.
I'm sure that CG had a lot of people pushing buttons at HQ's. Quite a few people were fired and/or maligned by the BOT under Chris' guidance. I'm not saying Craig isn't to blame, I'm saying that CG was definitely giving orders.
I remember being told that before the BOT made any decisions for TWI, they had to run it by Chris first because they were so effin' unspiritual that any decision made by them was probably influenced by devil spirits.
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Hope R.
Exie - do you remember sitting together at the Corps week reading of PoP - smoking cigarettes and making comments about poor CG having to clean the steps in Gartmore? Gawd - if you hadn't been there, I might have taken it seriously!
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excathedra
hoper, i'm not sure if i have a "specific" memory of ANYTHING ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
i do remember how gross his whining sounded
anything to do with him was always gross to me
i used to like craig way back where i can't remember
:)--> but i never really saw him as others have....
although i did get a letter from him that burned my fingers when i touched it. but that was before the call to loyalty....
oh man what a bunch of.... you know what
love you
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Catcup
When Craig got hit with the poop paper, it really threw him for a loop. On his way back from visiting Gartmore at CG's behest, and being hit full face with CG's accusations out of the blue, Craig diverted his plans and had a little stopover at O'Hare on the way home. He called in Fr*nK Sc**fe who was ordained clergy and a trusted friend at the time to quick come to the airport and talk to him.... it was an emergency.
Before Fr*nk even got home, he immediately called me and insisted I pray with him right now for Craig. Fr*nk said Craig was in such dire mental straits, he was truly afraid that without divine intervention Criag would commit suicide before he even got back to HQ. It was THAT BAD.
For some length of time, Craig was definitely depressed and confused. He was like a whipped puppy. Used to everyone beating up on him verbally and insulting him to his face and publicly. I am convinced that for some time he was simply "handled" by close friends.
I went to see him in his suite at Word in Business, probably in 87 (?) --when it was in Chicago. This was shortly after Ralph et al and the incident at I think the Ohio TC's meeting? Anyway, Ralph publicly confronted him-- a big scene. When Craig let me in, I had never seen him like that before. He was not himself. He never looked at me, just let me in and stood there with his arms folded across his chest like he was waiting for me to lay into him. I really felt so sad for him at that time. That day, I talked with him at length about Job and the miserable comforters. That seemed to move him. Nothing else I said did.
I had written several letters to the trustees at around that time, confrontational ones, and even got an apology from Don Wierwille in response (BTW, he was the ONLY trustee to apologize to me for "misrepresenting God" And I respect him for that).
After talking with Craig at WIB, I was convinced that he was sorry for whatever mistakes he had made and he wanted to correct the problems. Because I felt he was sincere, I told him he had my support, and from that time onward I and my husband did everything we could to help him, encourage him, and support him with research and in teaching. My encouragement from Job was this: Job was repentant. And God gave Job back double. And if God did that for Job, he can do it for you and the ministry: double the people, double the quality of the Word. Double. It's a promise from God.
There were several people around him, not just us, who encouraged Craig. I know I sent him among other things, some stuff on Galatians on what it was to help someone overtaken in a fault. Someone else also I believe in the 17th Corps (?) did the same. This and other support encouraged him to take charge of his own life and find a way up and out of his depression.
I believe he was very truthful with TWC when he shared what a mental fog he was in. I saw it. I wasn't the only one, either. I can't vouch for what he may have been medicated with for some time, but I don't doubt that he was. He surely could have used it and if he did, it probably saved his life at the time.
As for him planning anything during 87-89, I don't think so. Just getting from one day to the next was about all he could do until he got his feet back underneath him.
I believe he could have turned things around right about the time he understood he had made some mistakes and seemed to me to be sorry and wanted to correct them. He understood God forgave him and wanted to move forward, but was still suffering an onslaught of abuse (spell that consequences) from people he had offended.
Hence, the miserable comforter connection. That was comforting to a certain extent and I encouraged him in using that scripture to enable his recovery.
In my opinion, due to my unique point of view (and yours may differ-- that's fine with me and I will not argue with it), I think Craig was at a crossroads at this point and if he so desired, could have made a big turnaround for himself and for TWI, if he were truly repentant. However, he took the wrong fork in the road.
Instead of concentrating on correcting his own problems and those at HQ, Craig railed on those who were accusing him of sins he felt God had forgiven him for.
Instead of understanding those things as consequences of his own behavior and accepting it and moving beyond it to take responsibility, apologize, and fix the problems, he drew a bead on CG and anyone who had opposed him and was still opposing him, and let his anger dominate his thinking. IMO, opening and yielding to his anger opened a spiritual pandora's box.
Instead of attending to his own issues, Craig buried the truth regarding his own mistakes instead of honestly admitting them. He never got around to understanding he did in fact NOT have a right to any woman he chose.
As soon as he got his confidence back, he let his anger grow to monstrous and uncontrollable proportions against people he felt had betrayed him.
Then Craig honed in on his pet projects of "cleaning out the household" of anyone who he felt might betray him again, and unleashing torrents of anger toward them, and exploiting any other issues or people he desired.
I believe had he truly been repentant, things could have changed. Because when ANYONE repents truly, God can then work with them and work miracles if a person is willing.
But there was not a willing nor repentant heart.
And he became threefold the child of hell he was before, exploiting the weak and perverting the doctrine.
That's my point of view, my opinions, from my own unique perspective. Yours may differ. That's your right.
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templelady
I thank those who were in the thick of things for their words--Maybe I have judged LCM too harshly these many years--I am Sorry that he did not follow those who wanted to right the wrongs--
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excathedra
i don't know what view i see now, catcup, but i certainly appreciate your perspect -- and others
my immediate reaction, at this moment, is how cruel wierwille and geer could be. not talking about craig (at the moment
:)-->).
i just think geer is a nutjob and i think wierwille was very very very cruel
if craig was at a point of suicide, i think geer had so much to do with it, but remember who his "god" was. as a matter of fact, same for craig.....
i'm a little peon so glad i don't see things spiritually...... like these guys did.... any longer.....
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Catcup
Judging--
I don't know. It's part of God's job, but it is also part of ours, and required in order to separate good from evil, right from wrong.
The harsh light of the truth needs to be shed on what occurred inside that cornfield cult.
And the harsh light of the truth is what Craig needs to apply to what he did. Or it may eventually destroy him.
He is the one who has to come to grips and be honest before God about what he did to his sisters and brothers in Christ-- without trying to rationalize or justify his actions.
And he needs to make reparations in some form or fashion. As much for himself as for anyone he apologizes to or compensates for losses he caused.
He is the one who has to live with what he did.
I mean... there were countless marriages broken up and lives destroyed.... and I mean destroyed. Only God knows how many people physically died because of the doctrines and treatment by those who represented the interests of The Way International and carried out Martindale's demands. Untold numbers of suicides occurred because people could not live with what was done to them. How does a person come to acknowledge their responsibility in something like that?
But I fear that the only way he can live with it is to deny his responsibility. Take a look at the Nuremburg trials. People either denied responsibility outright or proudly declared what they did was justified.
If the man truly comes to grips with the extent of the damage he caused to so many thousands of peole, it will be an impossible load to carry alone.
And in the end, it may do him in anyway. Unfortunate, but guilt can do this to a person.
I'm sure he knows how to find me if he wants to talk. I'm willing to listen.
But I'm not holding my breath.
It's likely the conscience died long ago.
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excathedra
the few people who "destroyed" who i was.... a couple of them are dead and "other(s)" not too long for this life....
i have no desire to judge or have a confrontation session
but that's ME
but if i feel like talking about it, that's also my right
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shazdancer
Dear Catcup,
If what we think about LCM is correct, that he has narcissistic/sociopathic traits, then what happened to him at the time of the POP is what is called a narcissistic injury.
Narcissists actually have BIG self-esteem issues. They are a big walking hurt. They decide that they will not let anybody hurt them so deeply ever again, and craft a false Self, desperately seeking people to admire that Self, convincing themselves that they are important, because they are admired. But it is the false Self that is admired, and narcissists tend to resent the very people they set up to admire them, especially those that are closest to them.
In a narcissistic injury, a person or circumstance cuts through the facade and causes the narcissist to doubt his validity. One of the few times a Narcissist will seek help is when this happens to him, as in a divorce or job loss or other major life trauma. But once the immediate trauma is past, the narcissist will again shore up his mental boundaries, often belittling the therapist or doctor who tried to help him.
In Craig, from what you have said, it is easy to see that he was looking for admiration for his false Self, the MOGFODAT. Who was the star of the ballet? He was. Who was to stand in the gap? He was. Who was bringing the household into the promised land of the prevailing Word (gag me)? He was. Who got the Word over the world? He did, if you believe what he said.
He got wounded by the death of Wierwille and the subsequent accusations of G**r. But he came back stronger than ever. That is, until the BOD could no longer cover for him.
Regards,
Shaz
(Edited to fix the grammar and spelling a bit!)
[This message was edited by shazdancer on March 25, 2004 at 5:08.]
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Goey
Posted by Catcup:
Infamous people like Martindale, Wierwille, and other despots and vile persons almost never come clean and admit their wrong doings, much less make anything like an honest attempt at reparations.They will either deny any wrong doing at all, blame the devil, or blame the victims. Like the sex perp who rapes a 5-year-old kid and says, "she asked for it", they are incapable of real honesty. - Too far gone.
I would be surprised if Martindale ever made any kind of apology or restitution for the damage he did. But we can hope anyway if not for his sake then for the sake of those he harmed.
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WaywardWayfer
Conscience seared with a hot iron? I think they are perfect examples of it.
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Dot Matrix
Shaz
I was going to say that, not as well as you did, but to share how a man with such a huge ego could be depressed and on meds.
Mind you, it had nothing to do with the fact HE MIGHT BE WRONG, but everything to do with the "injury" HE suffered at the hands of Geer and other believers...
I also heard of the depression and meds from a reliable source.
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