Steve! this is typical way-brain illogical thinking. Didn't vee pee pee teach that you can prove anything using the Bible and then proceed to do that very same thing in order to justify anything he wanted?
Here's the process as I see it:
Let's see - I want to set myself up as some great one, a prophet....no, not just a prophet - an apostle.....no, not just an apostle.....a man of God....yeah, that's it a MAN OF GOD so spiritual that no one can touch me.
I also want to make everyone declare their loyalty to ME - none of this Bible quoting, God crap - I want them to be loyal to ME.
Hmmmmmm, who did something similar so that I can use that as an example?
Moses did say..... Yeah, that's a good one - and if I use Moses as an example they will start thinking of me as the Moses for this day at time.....then I can make them jump through hoops because Israel did some weird things for Moses because he told them God said to do those things.....
That'll work. I'll use that example when I force them to bow down to me.
They wanted to punish us oplain and simple.....real Godly and spiritual....the couldn`t do anything to mark....so it was me the only way they knew how....I felt like they were cutting off my very lifes blood...all because my husband wouldn`t play ball with them.
These folks that I loved...my family...my brothers and sisters...I wasn`t good enough any more...it was UGLY...it was mean spirited...uncalled for and cruel...and for you to indicate that it was spiritual ...that it was acceptable and Godly ....es me off Oldies....
I guess it doesn`t matter what was done to us...how viley we were hurt...yet again, just as long as you personally had a little peace and was blessed eh?
quote:It amazed me how people could say "I love you" one day, and the following day never wish to see you again...It's a shame when you have to wonder when somebody say "I love you", do they mean it? Or is it the empty words, just like you have heard in twi soo many times...
Zshot, I felt this way in my twig in 1989. The wife of the twig coordinator, continually thinking evil and badmouthing TWI, was against Craig and TWI, whispering, murmuring against, etc. I begged, pleaded with my twig coordinators, her and her husband, to write down all the problems they had with Craig and the BOT, and address these things directly with them. I offered to go with them myself to hq to work it out. They refused to do it, even on the phone. These were folks who I stayed with for 7 years, people who I followed from the Bronx, to move close to upstate, just because I thought we were close friends and wanted to be in their twig. So anyway, one day the husband told me privately, that if he weren't married, he would have stuck with TWI, but he didn't want to break up his family. But the thing is, as she was badmouthing and thinking evil about Craig and the BOT, she was teaching "we need to love".
Yeah, she loved me so much she couldn't give a damn about what I thought; or have the simple courtesy to just at least meet me half way and try to address the concerns they had directly with the BOT. No way. But yet, she teaches about Love at twig. YUCK.
OM---against your example of ONE who would NOT go to the BOT, are set HUNDREDS who did and got blown off. You need to get out of your little world more, om... During those years(86-89) I was in touch with perhaps 2 dozen or so folks from all over the US and a foreign country or 2--all KINDS of folks tryed to get some kind of answer from lcm and hra and dew--nada, nuttin...
quote:The only reason things started to get better in TWI between 1990-1993 is because of the loyalty letter and LCM's decision to "move the Word" back then - but then LCM blew it for all of us in 1993 when he made the decision to "can the move of God's Word" in favor of some other political campaign.
What the Hay, a very interesting comment that I hadn't thought about. Thanks. Also, PFAL was still around in 1989 and subsequent years. I don't know when they cancelled it, but it was around for a few years after 1989. Hey, maybe it was their abandonment of PFAL that had some negative impact as well?
quote:OM, peace comes from the Prince of Peace, not the absence of people you do not personally see eye to eye with...I believe that was taught in twi all along. What you describe is known as organic unity; get rid of everyone who does not agree with the group's views. Over the next 5 years you saw how that played out....
Alfakat, yes peace comes from the Prince of Peace, but it's quickly extinguished if you're arguing all the time. That's the way it was for me in 1989...I'd go to twig and argue with the coordinators about how evil or screwed up, not evil not screwed up, Craig and the BOT were. Not good. And I bet you take any other religion, how long do you think they'd put up with you, you speaking evil against their leaders? I'm sure they'd ask you to take a hike after awhile.
quote:OM---against your example of ONE who would NOT go to the BOT, are set HUNDREDS who did and got blown off. You need to get out of your little world more, om... During those years(86-89) I was in touch with perhaps 2 dozen or so folks from all over the US and a foreign country or 2--all KINDS of folks tryed to get some kind of answer from lcm and hra and dew--nada, nuttin...
Alfakat, perhaps that was true before the March 1989 letter, but immediately after the letter was written and during those months after, I was in contact with Don Wierwille. Don's phone lines and doors were open to anyone who wanted to discuss any problems they had with TWI, at that time. Don told me over the phone that they did a bad job of communication in previous years, presumably due to their being in a fog. But folks who got that 1989 letter and who had concerns and questions, and who wanted them addressed by the BOT, had an option to discuss them if they wanted. I heard that directly from Don and the staff there.
Goey - oh dear Lord, no... Oldies, you didn't get it....
What I was saying is that I think that CG was working on his "thesis" during that one year time period - getting ready to sock it to 'em, formulating a way to get the worst reaction from the BOT and the Corps (or is the best reaction? guess it depends on who's end the reaction is on!).
Had it been so effing important for them to know all the stuff in PoP - and if it was reallyfrom God and of God and godly - I don't think God would have had CG wait a year. Hence the "yuck" at the end of the paragraph.
It's like knowing the Titanic has structural problems and could sink, but waiting until after it hits the iceberg to say you knew about it and what the engineers did wrong, how the captain effed up, and how it could have been stopped.
CG had a lot of ammo to work with and nothing but the words of a dead man to back it up. Nothing he had written could be proved.
Basically - IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO!!!!!!!!!!
I think CG took a few unrealated facts, mistakes made by the BoT and the mumblings from a dying old man and put them together and MADE UP PoP. The trustees were so effed up that they weren't spiritual enough to see it.
Alfakat, perhaps that was true before the March 1989 letter, but immediately after the letter was written and during those months after, I was in contact with Don Wierwille. Don's phone lines and doors were open to anyone who wanted to discuss any problems they had with TWI, at that time. Don told me over the phone that they did a bad job of communication in previous years, presumably due to their being in a fog. But folks who got that 1989 letter and who had concerns and questions, and who wanted them addressed by the BOT, had an option to discuss them if they wanted. I heard that directly from Don and the staff there.
Nope, not so...
maybe dew was open, he always (at least what I knew of him prior to 89) was open to that...
NOT lcm, om, NOT lcm--he got back on his high horse and WOULD not discuss squat--I know MANY who tried...sorry, he was prez, not dew...
Goey - oh dear Lord, no... Oldies, you didn't get it....
What I was saying is that I think that CG was working on his "thesis" during that one year time period - getting ready to sock it to 'em, formulating a way to get the worst reaction from the BOT and the Corps (or is the best reaction? guess it depends on who's end the reaction is on!).
Had it been so effing important for them to know it all the stuff in PoP - and if it was _really_ from God and of God and godly - I don't think God would have had CG _wait_ a year. Hence the "yuck" at the end of the paragraph.
It's like knowing the Titanic is going to hit an iceberg, but waiting until after it happens to say you knew about it - what the captain did wrong and how it could have been stopped.
CG had a lot of ammo to work with and nothing but the words of a dead man to back it up. Nothing he had written could be proved.
Basically - _IMO IMO IMO IMO_
I think CG took a few unrealated facts, mistakes made by the BoT and the mumblings from a dying old man and put them together and __MADE UP PoP.__ The trustees were so effed up that they weren't spiritual enough to see it.
_IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO_
Am I crystal clear?
Hope --- I don't know if he spent the year composing it or not. I would say that some of the points, with almost 20 years to retrospect, do seem valid. I would question the motivation behind it and I DEFINITELY question the complete WHITEWASH of ANY responsibility that vic had in making the whole mess in the first place by how he, and to a lesser degree, hew and ermal, set up the structure in the earlier(69-75) days. I have concluded over the years that so much of what went down was the chickens coming home to roost--and PoP was just a big attempt to take the spotlight offa vic and his ultimate culpability in so MANY areas. Who better to blame than your own, eldest son, your supposed best friend and your most loyal, abject toady....
Thanks for clarifying that. I know what you meant but ti seem ir flew right over oldies head.
[hr}
Oldies,
quote:And I bet you take any other religion, how long do you think they'd put up with you, you speaking evil against their leaders? I'm sure they'd ask you to take a hike after awhile.
Yes, especially one that is based upon lies and deceit.
I get it. Challenging the authority/decisons of the presumed MOGFODAT is "speaking evil" but when then same MOGFODAT says nasty lies about folks, and removes anyone who disgrees with him it is "cleaning up the household". Is that it Oldies ?
quote:But folks who got that 1989 letter and who had concerns and questions, and who wanted them addressed by the BOT, had an option to discuss them if they wanted. I heard that directly from Don and the staff there.
And you believe that just becasue Don said it? In spite of what folks have told you happend when they tried? My, My, aren't we gullible and naive.
quote:John, I thought he WAS being loving. He was finally cleaning house of folks who were badmouthing him. It's not just a question of not being loyal; these folks were into badmouthing, whispering, murmuring, suspicious minds. Asking those folks to leave, was being very loving, especially to folks who wanted to fellowship in peace. One of the statements he wrote was "you don't try to co-exist with gangrene; you cut it out." Let's not kid ourselves, folks were given plenty of time, years, to make up their minds. Even after that, they could have come back if they wanted it. But their opinions of Craig and the BOT were evil. I thought it was better they left, personally.
Oldies, you have a much different idea of what "love" is than I do. I see neither side as being loving. I see no love at all this whole situation -- I see two phony cult leaders in 2 stupid cults competing for power, money and "loyalty". I see naive people like yourself who may have actually wanted to serve God, duped into thinking that the lesser of these 2 evils was "good". A false dilemma.
Personally, I don't think you have the capacity to be honest enough with yourself to admit that you were in a stupid cult and supporting a stupid cult leader.
LCM and Moses are or ever were comparable? Wow. I guess when one was deep into the cult-think, that would be the expected mindset. But now that one is out and knows what was going on and just how far from "godly" lcm got...wow, I cannot even imagine comparing lcm to Moses anymore.
As for how other churches operate...
Most non-cultish denominations do not allow the lead pastors to have ultimate authority. Most pastors are accepted into a church body via vote by that body. Most denominations expect the pastor to be a servant. His/her wages and quality of life are totally dependent upon tithes and offerings...and he/she is often the one who doesn't get paid if there is a shortfall somewhere. Health insurance coverage is often far short of what even state medicaid plans could offer. His/her children often wear hand-me-downs...and those are often obtained not by direct gift, but from leftovers from the church bazaar.
There are many differences between cult leadership and honest pastors. Many.
Good point CW, there are not many other denominations that have all authority vested in one person.
The Way International was Weirwille's playground from day one. He called all the shots, he made all the major decisions, and his teachings were paramount. Who thought that Weirwille was claiming anything less than being the spiritual head of TWI?
He made a big mistake in appointing a moron-jock (no offense to any of you jocks, or any morons :D-->) who didn't have the organizational and people skills (and b.s. skills) that he had.
What happened to TWI in the 80's and again in the 90's was inevitable due to its concentratuion of power.
"I remember a second letter Craig wrote a month later"
"I think that second letter expounds the biblical justification for Craig's decision."
______________________________________
Oldies, let me call you aside privately for a moment. I have noticed that you are living in the past too much. The fact that you call Rev. Martindale Craig shows that you are spiritually and mentally contaminated. In today's household we are to refer to him as Rev. Martindale. :D--> :D-->
The above is what you would have heard in TWI II as I did when I slipped and called him Craig. We dared not do so even in private conversations with others in the household or you would be ratted out and next thing you know you were getting a call or confrontation from leadership. If you did not change, you would have eventually been kicked out on this infraction alone. Yes, it got even worse after the loyalty "letter bomb" was sent out.
quote:I get it. Challenging the authority/decisons of the presumed MOGFODAT is "speaking evil" but when then same MOGFODAT says nasty lies about folks, and removes anyone who disgrees with him it is "cleaning up the household". Is that it Oldies ?
Goey, the way I saw it, Craig was asking for a clean slate and asking folks to start fresh and new, make a new commitment to move the Word with him. Obviously many folks weren't willing to do that because of the previous mess. Nasty lies on both sides are unjustified; but the action of the letter and subsequent months were good because it forced people to think about their lives, and what they were going to decide to do. If a person had a genuine disagreement with Craig that was bad enough not to be resolved, like VF thinking Craig was worshipping other gods; yeah, its better for him to leave, to clean up the household. I probably wouldn't last long as a parishoner in the Catholic Church, thinking the Pope is worshipping other gods. Similarly lots thought Craig was off the wall and wasn't going to change; it's better those folks departed and left others alone who wanted to remain and give him the benefit of the doubt.
quote: And you believe that just becasue Don said it? In spite of what folks have told you happend when they tried? ...
Yes. I haven't heard from anyone who said they tried to address their concerns with Don Wierwille in 1989...that was the context of my statement. I can't speak for LCM, but Don was there taking questions. I personally believe that anyone who really wanted to try to work things out, in 1989, could have if they wanted to. The people who didn't want to, just didn't do it, it's that simple.
quote:Personally, I don't think you have the capacity to be honest enough with yourself to admit that you were in a stupid cult and supporting a stupid cult leader.
Everyone's entitled to their own opinion and if that's what you think, so be it. It's obvious you never appreciated TWI as I did, and it didn't benefit you like it did me and thousands of others.
quote:LCM and Moses are or ever were comparable? Wow. I guess when one was deep into the cult-think, that would be the expected mindset. But now that one is out and knows what was going on and just how far from "godly" lcm got...wow, I cannot even imagine comparing lcm to Moses anymore.
I wasn't comparing Craig to Moses. That's your surmising. I was comparing the action Moses took, with the action Craig took. That's the example Craig gave in that letter. I think there were other biblical principles he cited; I wish that letter were around.
Remain and give him the benefit of the doubt???? WE WEREN`T ALLOWED!!!!!
Watch my lips.....one more time ...we were NOT allowed.
Keep changing what was asked oldies...make it sound nicer...that doesn`t make it true...it wasn`t a clean slate being asked....it was unquestioning uncompromising loyalty...
quote:The above is what you would have heard in TWI II as I did when I slipped and called him Craig. We dared not do so even in private conversations with others in the household or you would be ratted out and next thing you know you were getting a call or confrontation from leadership. ...
John, that happened years after the 1989 letter....
A good tree brings forth good fruit. Everything that happened after the 1989 letter branched off from that letter. Yes, from a worldly perspective, you get rid of those not loyal to the company. I agree. But take a step back: if you want to say it was impossible to know that at the time, that you made your decision and you thought it was the godly one, that's fine. No one can fault you for that. But stop ascribing these pure motives to LCM when everything he did at the time and afterward indicates his motives were self-glorifying, not to the glory of God.
I surmised nothing, OM. For anyone (lcm or anyone else) to compare his/her actions to those of Moses, one must consider oneself on the par of Moses.
And what is this crap you're always doing about, "Did anyone go to Don?
You point fingers at people and say, "Did anybody take their concerns to lcm or other leadership?" People tell you, "Yes we went to lcm and other leadership", there are copies of letters on the 'net people have written to lcm and other leadership, you cannot deny that people, hundreds and hundreds of people, did in fact do their utmost best to stop lcm's greasing of the skids on that slippery slope to hell.
Then you turn around and say, "Yes, but did anybody go to Don about it all?"
If Don W missed hundreds and hundreds of letters...missed a state senator (or two or so), a DA's office (or two or so) and several newspapers and other media attempting to get statements from the bod...missed that good people were being ousted for nothing more than disagreeing...missed this whole boat you say he missed...
Then Don was either dumber than a pile of rocks or was closing his eyes.
Either way, it would not have helped to go to Don.
Why can't you just admit to yourself that you were in an ungodly cult and start to grow up and heal a little bit?
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Goey
Oldies,
I am not too sure that Hope's point was that Geers delay proves that the BOT were not effed up.
It seems more like the point was that: If Geer was really that concerned that TWI was so messed up he would have acted sooner.
This was more about Geer being messed up than TWI being "right on".
Hope, for clarity's sake, did you post this to say that you think that Craig and the BOT at this were actually doing a fine stand up job?
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insurgent
Steve! this is typical way-brain illogical thinking. Didn't vee pee pee teach that you can prove anything using the Bible and then proceed to do that very same thing in order to justify anything he wanted?
Here's the process as I see it:
Let's see - I want to set myself up as some great one, a prophet....no, not just a prophet - an apostle.....no, not just an apostle.....a man of God....yeah, that's it a MAN OF GOD so spiritual that no one can touch me.
I also want to make everyone declare their loyalty to ME - none of this Bible quoting, God crap - I want them to be loyal to ME.
Hmmmmmm, who did something similar so that I can use that as an example?
Moses did say..... Yeah, that's a good one - and if I use Moses as an example they will start thinking of me as the Moses for this day at time.....then I can make them jump through hoops because Israel did some weird things for Moses because he told them God said to do those things.....
That'll work. I'll use that example when I force them to bow down to me.
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rascal
They wanted to punish us oplain and simple.....real Godly and spiritual....the couldn`t do anything to mark....so it was me the only way they knew how....I felt like they were cutting off my very lifes blood...all because my husband wouldn`t play ball with them.
These folks that I loved...my family...my brothers and sisters...I wasn`t good enough any more...it was UGLY...it was mean spirited...uncalled for and cruel...and for you to indicate that it was spiritual ...that it was acceptable and Godly ....es me off Oldies....
I guess it doesn`t matter what was done to us...how viley we were hurt...yet again, just as long as you personally had a little peace and was blessed eh?
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oldiesman
Zshot, I felt this way in my twig in 1989. The wife of the twig coordinator, continually thinking evil and badmouthing TWI, was against Craig and TWI, whispering, murmuring against, etc. I begged, pleaded with my twig coordinators, her and her husband, to write down all the problems they had with Craig and the BOT, and address these things directly with them. I offered to go with them myself to hq to work it out. They refused to do it, even on the phone. These were folks who I stayed with for 7 years, people who I followed from the Bronx, to move close to upstate, just because I thought we were close friends and wanted to be in their twig. So anyway, one day the husband told me privately, that if he weren't married, he would have stuck with TWI, but he didn't want to break up his family. But the thing is, as she was badmouthing and thinking evil about Craig and the BOT, she was teaching "we need to love".
Yeah, she loved me so much she couldn't give a damn about what I thought; or have the simple courtesy to just at least meet me half way and try to address the concerns they had directly with the BOT. No way. But yet, she teaches about Love at twig. YUCK.
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alfakat
OM---against your example of ONE who would NOT go to the BOT, are set HUNDREDS who did and got blown off. You need to get out of your little world more, om... During those years(86-89) I was in touch with perhaps 2 dozen or so folks from all over the US and a foreign country or 2--all KINDS of folks tryed to get some kind of answer from lcm and hra and dew--nada, nuttin...
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JustThinking
Insurgent,
Minor point: "A" man of God?
It was "THE" Man of God.
JT
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WordWolf
The letter you're referring to, Oldies, is the
one where lcm said he was canning
(insert-names-of-all-leadership-in-the-state-
who-didnt-fall-in-a-prostrate-manner-before-
lcm), and was a form letter, as someone else
pointed out. I doubt he knew anything else about
the people canned in it other than their failure
to "bow, kneel, yield!"
(In hindsight, I wish someone had slipped a few fake
names in there. I would have LOVED a letter saying he
was firing "Heywood Jablome, Mike Easter, Seymour Butts,
Amanda Huginkiss, and Al Coholic"...)
It made a passing reference to some Bible stuff, and
cited the one and only verse that mentions "marking"
and "avoiding". As I was taught in pfal, I read that
verse..."Why don't they ever read the next verse?"
"Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron..."
(Wait-wrong next verse.)
Romans 16:17 ( m & a) is followed by Romans 16:18.
(BTW, 16:17 says the offenses are "contrary to the
doctrine"-lcm skipped that mention also.)
Romans 16:18.
"For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ,
but their own belly, and by good words and fair speeches
deceive the hearts of the simple."
He named a lot of people. I'd interacted with some of them
before that, and a number of them AFTER that. None of them
had the sun shining out of their navels, but none of them
were greedy, servers of self, fond of putting on a false
front, or afraid to live with almost nothing.
Contrast that with the man making the accusation, who had
never worked a day of labour outside the corps or twi
grounds as an adult. (I don't know if he had a paper route
or something as a kid.) He was quite public about things
being about money for him.
I prepared a letter specifically asking him for the proof
of this accusation he was levelling, since that is indeed a
very serious charge he was insinuating without stating
outright. (I was not aware it was a form letter and it was
not at all based on the people it accused.) I elected not
to send it when I found out someone I know had already sent
a letter and gotten a response, which was, in essence,
"none of your business why I make this accusation-you just
follow without question". I elected not to receive this
letter. (In hindsight, I wish I had sent it, so I could
get a "none of your business" form letter, also.)
BTW, I hadn't heard anything from any of those people
involving badmouthing lcm. In fact, I don't remember
hearing anything AFTER that, badmouthing lcm. (Contrast
this with lcm's insults...) I DO say there's a difference
between being a "conscientious objector" and being an
"agent provocateur".
As others have said, this was not stated as a corporate
decision. This was specifically stated as a spiritual
decision, and the people were all said to have placed
GREED over SERVING GOD.
(So I had to fire them. Here's your tithe envelope, as
always. Don't forget to send us your 15% on schedule,
since those greedy idolators aren't sending it here.)
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oldiesman
What the Hay, a very interesting comment that I hadn't thought about. Thanks. Also, PFAL was still around in 1989 and subsequent years. I don't know when they cancelled it, but it was around for a few years after 1989. Hey, maybe it was their abandonment of PFAL that had some negative impact as well?
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oldiesman
Alfakat, yes peace comes from the Prince of Peace, but it's quickly extinguished if you're arguing all the time. That's the way it was for me in 1989...I'd go to twig and argue with the coordinators about how evil or screwed up, not evil not screwed up, Craig and the BOT were. Not good. And I bet you take any other religion, how long do you think they'd put up with you, you speaking evil against their leaders? I'm sure they'd ask you to take a hike after awhile.
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oldiesman
Alfakat, perhaps that was true before the March 1989 letter, but immediately after the letter was written and during those months after, I was in contact with Don Wierwille. Don's phone lines and doors were open to anyone who wanted to discuss any problems they had with TWI, at that time. Don told me over the phone that they did a bad job of communication in previous years, presumably due to their being in a fog. But folks who got that 1989 letter and who had concerns and questions, and who wanted them addressed by the BOT, had an option to discuss them if they wanted. I heard that directly from Don and the staff there.
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Hope R.
Goey - oh dear Lord, no... Oldies, you didn't get it....
What I was saying is that I think that CG was working on his "thesis" during that one year time period - getting ready to sock it to 'em, formulating a way to get the worst reaction from the BOT and the Corps (or is the best reaction? guess it depends on who's end the reaction is on!).
Had it been so effing important for them to know all the stuff in PoP - and if it was really from God and of God and godly - I don't think God would have had CG wait a year. Hence the "yuck" at the end of the paragraph.
It's like knowing the Titanic has structural problems and could sink, but waiting until after it hits the iceberg to say you knew about it and what the engineers did wrong, how the captain effed up, and how it could have been stopped.
CG had a lot of ammo to work with and nothing but the words of a dead man to back it up. Nothing he had written could be proved.
Basically - IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO!!!!!!!!!!
I think CG took a few unrealated facts, mistakes made by the BoT and the mumblings from a dying old man and put them together and MADE UP PoP. The trustees were so effed up that they weren't spiritual enough to see it.
IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO
Am I crystal clear?
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alfakat
Nope, not so...
maybe dew was open, he always (at least what I knew of him prior to 89) was open to that...
NOT lcm, om, NOT lcm--he got back on his high horse and WOULD not discuss squat--I know MANY who tried...sorry, he was prez, not dew...
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alfakat
Hope --- I don't know if he spent the year composing it or not. I would say that some of the points, with almost 20 years to retrospect, do seem valid. I would question the motivation behind it and I DEFINITELY question the complete WHITEWASH of ANY responsibility that vic had in making the whole mess in the first place by how he, and to a lesser degree, hew and ermal, set up the structure in the earlier(69-75) days. I have concluded over the years that so much of what went down was the chickens coming home to roost--and PoP was just a big attempt to take the spotlight offa vic and his ultimate culpability in so MANY areas. Who better to blame than your own, eldest son, your supposed best friend and your most loyal, abject toady....
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Goey
Hope,
Thanks for clarifying that. I know what you meant but ti seem ir flew right over oldies head.
[hr}
Oldies,
Yes, especially one that is based upon lies and deceit.I get it. Challenging the authority/decisons of the presumed MOGFODAT is "speaking evil" but when then same MOGFODAT says nasty lies about folks, and removes anyone who disgrees with him it is "cleaning up the household". Is that it Oldies ?
And you believe that just becasue Don said it? In spite of what folks have told you happend when they tried? My, My, aren't we gullible and naive.
Oldies, you have a much different idea of what "love" is than I do. I see neither side as being loving. I see no love at all this whole situation -- I see two phony cult leaders in 2 stupid cults competing for power, money and "loyalty". I see naive people like yourself who may have actually wanted to serve God, duped into thinking that the lesser of these 2 evils was "good". A false dilemma.
Personally, I don't think you have the capacity to be honest enough with yourself to admit that you were in a stupid cult and supporting a stupid cult leader.
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CoolWaters
LCM and Moses are or ever were comparable? Wow. I guess when one was deep into the cult-think, that would be the expected mindset. But now that one is out and knows what was going on and just how far from "godly" lcm got...wow, I cannot even imagine comparing lcm to Moses anymore.
As for how other churches operate...
Most non-cultish denominations do not allow the lead pastors to have ultimate authority. Most pastors are accepted into a church body via vote by that body. Most denominations expect the pastor to be a servant. His/her wages and quality of life are totally dependent upon tithes and offerings...and he/she is often the one who doesn't get paid if there is a shortfall somewhere. Health insurance coverage is often far short of what even state medicaid plans could offer. His/her children often wear hand-me-downs...and those are often obtained not by direct gift, but from leftovers from the church bazaar.
There are many differences between cult leadership and honest pastors. Many.
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Oakspear
Good point CW, there are not many other denominations that have all authority vested in one person.
The Way International was Weirwille's playground from day one. He called all the shots, he made all the major decisions, and his teachings were paramount. Who thought that Weirwille was claiming anything less than being the spiritual head of TWI?
He made a big mistake in appointing a moron-jock (no offense to any of you jocks, or any morons
:D-->) who didn't have the organizational and people skills (and b.s. skills) that he had.
What happened to TWI in the 80's and again in the 90's was inevitable due to its concentratuion of power.
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igotout
"I remember a second letter Craig wrote a month later"
"I think that second letter expounds the biblical justification for Craig's decision."
______________________________________
Oldies, let me call you aside privately for a moment. I have noticed that you are living in the past too much. The fact that you call Rev. Martindale Craig shows that you are spiritually and mentally contaminated. In today's household we are to refer to him as Rev. Martindale.
:D--> 
:D-->
The above is what you would have heard in TWI II as I did when I slipped and called him Craig. We dared not do so even in private conversations with others in the household or you would be ratted out and next thing you know you were getting a call or confrontation from leadership. If you did not change, you would have eventually been kicked out on this infraction alone. Yes, it got even worse after the loyalty "letter bomb" was sent out.
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oldiesman
Goey, the way I saw it, Craig was asking for a clean slate and asking folks to start fresh and new, make a new commitment to move the Word with him. Obviously many folks weren't willing to do that because of the previous mess. Nasty lies on both sides are unjustified; but the action of the letter and subsequent months were good because it forced people to think about their lives, and what they were going to decide to do. If a person had a genuine disagreement with Craig that was bad enough not to be resolved, like VF thinking Craig was worshipping other gods; yeah, its better for him to leave, to clean up the household. I probably wouldn't last long as a parishoner in the Catholic Church, thinking the Pope is worshipping other gods. Similarly lots thought Craig was off the wall and wasn't going to change; it's better those folks departed and left others alone who wanted to remain and give him the benefit of the doubt.
Yes. I haven't heard from anyone who said they tried to address their concerns with Don Wierwille in 1989...that was the context of my statement. I can't speak for LCM, but Don was there taking questions. I personally believe that anyone who really wanted to try to work things out, in 1989, could have if they wanted to. The people who didn't want to, just didn't do it, it's that simple.
Everyone's entitled to their own opinion and if that's what you think, so be it. It's obvious you never appreciated TWI as I did, and it didn't benefit you like it did me and thousands of others.
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oldiesman
I wasn't comparing Craig to Moses. That's your surmising. I was comparing the action Moses took, with the action Craig took. That's the example Craig gave in that letter. I think there were other biblical principles he cited; I wish that letter were around.
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rascal
Remain and give him the benefit of the doubt???? WE WEREN`T ALLOWED!!!!!
Watch my lips.....one more time ...we were NOT allowed.
Keep changing what was asked oldies...make it sound nicer...that doesn`t make it true...it wasn`t a clean slate being asked....it was unquestioning uncompromising loyalty...
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oldiesman
John, that happened years after the 1989 letter....
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excathedra
some people wanted to "help" others; i.e., get people out of "the way"
some people wanted to get them in their thing
and some people thought ALL of it was a ridiculous bunch of sugar
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Raf
Oldiesman,
You can't get oranges from an apple tree.
A good tree brings forth good fruit. Everything that happened after the 1989 letter branched off from that letter. Yes, from a worldly perspective, you get rid of those not loyal to the company. I agree. But take a step back: if you want to say it was impossible to know that at the time, that you made your decision and you thought it was the godly one, that's fine. No one can fault you for that. But stop ascribing these pure motives to LCM when everything he did at the time and afterward indicates his motives were self-glorifying, not to the glory of God.
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CoolWaters
I surmised nothing, OM. For anyone (lcm or anyone else) to compare his/her actions to those of Moses, one must consider oneself on the par of Moses.
And what is this crap you're always doing about, "Did anyone go to Don?
You point fingers at people and say, "Did anybody take their concerns to lcm or other leadership?" People tell you, "Yes we went to lcm and other leadership", there are copies of letters on the 'net people have written to lcm and other leadership, you cannot deny that people, hundreds and hundreds of people, did in fact do their utmost best to stop lcm's greasing of the skids on that slippery slope to hell.
Then you turn around and say, "Yes, but did anybody go to Don about it all?"
If Don W missed hundreds and hundreds of letters...missed a state senator (or two or so), a DA's office (or two or so) and several newspapers and other media attempting to get statements from the bod...missed that good people were being ousted for nothing more than disagreeing...missed this whole boat you say he missed...
Then Don was either dumber than a pile of rocks or was closing his eyes.
Either way, it would not have helped to go to Don.
Why can't you just admit to yourself that you were in an ungodly cult and start to grow up and heal a little bit?
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