what I did not know in 85-89 was how deep the error ran, how high up it originated or just how damn long it had been going on. I initially thought cg must have been near the mark because many problems he noted did, in fact, exist and the bot sure acted liked whipped curs so I figured vic's reproof, delivered by cg, musta been near the mark.
HAH!! I NOW know that Poop was in fact, a serious whitewash of ANY responsibility on vpw's part for the shambles twi was in because of his tyrannical centralized control of twi and his inability to manifest any personal self-control when it came to his own over-desires. This legacy was passed to lcm, who warmed slowly, but surely to his teacher's example and soon he was swingin' just like vic....
every cause has an effect, every effect a cause, eh, bible fans??
Raf--your comparison was particularly apt, I might say....
....and i noticed somewhere in craig's letter (before i just laughed and stopped reading) that he said something about jesus told his "men" (did you hear that rosie and donnie) ha ha ha ha ha
that they would be known by their love
take note ~ old veep, craiggy and sceery geery..... all kinda missed the mark....
and avoided..... couldn't help myself on the avoid thingy
Honestly, when I first heard PoP, I was amazed how un-exciting it was. I thought I was going to hear all kinds of "dirt" about the trustees. Instead, I heard at least an hour about CG's travails in Gartmore (boooorrringgg), another hour about him taking care of VP (booooorrrring), and another hour of him talking about people I didn't know (the dog training guy, one of his drivers, etc.) who did stuff that seemed pretty mild compared to what I thought I was going to hear.
PoP was more about Geer setting himself up as the MoG than about VP's "last will and testament". If PoP was indeed VP's final wishes - why did it take a year for CG to read it? Oh, yeah, because VP told him to wait a year... wait... did anyone else hear him say that? Any of it?
If the BoT were so effed up and running TWI into the ground - you would think old Scotty would have beamed himself to HQ's without waiting a whole year. I think he was planning and writing and scheming the whole time. Yuck.
Let me jump ahead to one of the results of this LOYality letter...
Form letters were sent out from twi, with the only things different were the names. I saw the ones addressed to NY and MA. These "form" letters had no love, respect or nurturing in them. It seems to be a letter drafted in hate.
Let us not forget how many lives were torn apart with a stroke of a pen... How many marriages and friendships were shattered.
It amazed me how people could say "I love you" one day, and the following day never wish to see you again...
It's a shame when you have to wonder when somebody say "I love you", do they mean it? Or is it the empty words, just like you have heard in twi soo many times...
quote: tell us how MUCH better it got from 90-95 with homo witchhunts and the rest...
For the record the so-called "homo witch-hunt" didn't start in 1990, it started right after the Rock of Ages; it was either 1993 or the 1994 ROA, but I am leaning more toward 1993. There was some homo-purging already going on in TWI just prior to this (that was also mentioned in the letter TWI sent out) but I am specifically marking this time when it was first publically announced within the TWI household - for a very important reason that will be revealed shortly.
I was standing with TWI right up until this time (1993) and I vividly recall getting the letter and TWI's bould (intended to rhyme with mould) pronouncement for all of us who were actively standing in the TWI household to: "Go, Stand, Smoke out homos" very shortly after the Rock of Ages.
It wasn't the "Loyalty to Loy" letter that brought down TWI. In fact, the loyalty letter was spiritually working in TWI's favor, and truthfully, TWI was on the mend (spiritually speaking) from 1990 right up until 1993. More people were comming back to TWI (this was especially true in my area) and TWI was running more Advanced classes than they ever had in the previous years.
It wasn't the loyalty to Loy letter, - it was THIS ONE people!!! Well it wasn't LCM's decision to: "smoke homo's out of the household" that ultimately brought TWI down IMO. It was LCM's decision to: CANCEL THE WOW PROGRAM! That's the decision that LCM made that REALLY was OFF THE WORD! That's right. Go, Stand, Speak God's Word was now replaced with: Go, Stand, "Smoke out homos" by the MOGFODAT!!! It only goes to prove the True God won't be easily undone - even by the president of TWI!!!
Yours truly also sent a letter to LCM to let him know just what a spirtually f**cked up decision he was making. I told LCM he was essentially letting "Barney" run TWI while he was seeing one to many "purple dinosuars." LCM didn't even have the courage to write me back! But I did get a letter from "somebody else" in TWI. What they said was if I went back to TWIG fellership it would all be explained to me there. (Like the original letter TWI sent out wasn't already clear?) I also recall thinking at the time, "Oh great, just what will be canceled next by LCM - The Rock?" [And that was right before he cancelled the ROA!] It was right around this time that I left.
The only reason things started to get better in TWI between 1990-1993 is because of the loyalty letter and LCM's decision to "move the Word" back then - but then LCM blew it for all of us in 1993 when he made the decision to "can the move of God's Word" in favor of some other political campaign.
Things haven't gotten any better in TWI ever since. You can believe it's due to the underhanded machinations and all the other politically incorrect decisions TWI now makes which is far removed with having anything to do with Gods' Word. The only way things could ever improve in TWI would be if Rosie-lie should choose to come back to the integrity of the Word of God - but frankly, she hasn't got the courage, the guts or the "spiritual hootspa and finesse" needed to pull that one off. And don't we all know it!
I can only imagine what some have had to deal with. I always kept low key and not too involved at top levels but I used to get yelled at for not being MORE involved or rising up in leadership. Now I am glad I laid low all those years.
I never blinked any eye when Donna called Craig the "Spiritual Head of this Ministry". I just assumed she was reiterating what most followers had been programmed to accept as fact---which was that before his death, Victor Paul Wierwille had been the "Spritual Head of TWI" (MOGFODAT), but now that Elijah had passed the "spiritual Mantle" to Elisha (Craig), he was now "The Head". We had all been groomed to think more highly of both Dr. Wierwille and Craig than we ought. Most of us did not stop to ponder the deeper implications of Donna's pronouncement. MOG worship certainly didn't start when Craig assumed the throne. I remember having more than one long standing believer tell me that Dr. Wierwille was such a spiritual giant, that he was one of only three people in the entire history of man who'd experienced a direct confrontation with THE DEVIL HIMSELF---the other two being Eve and Jesus Christ!
The sad thing about the whole POP, Martindale/Geer power struggle, was that most of us assumed that one of them had to be right, and the other, spiritually off the mark. Way too late, it seems, did many of us wake up to the understanding that they were BOTH terribly F'd up! It was Like choosing between slime and mucous.
i wonder if leaders of churches and twi offshoots require loyalty statements, certainly not to this degree, do you think ?
i never cared for veepee's tears and how "we" his "kids" were breaking his heart. get real you jerk life's not about you.
and psychogeer found it a privilege to be first in line for the yelling and screaming. man i wish i could be that spiritual. and he could dish it out too. he ruined a good friend of mine.
I think that from a purely "five senses" point of view, or shall I say from a non sprirtual point of view, Oldiesman has a point. Any corporation that had "two heads", one in Scotland, and one at HQ, would be better served if all of the board members/employees etc, acted in unity of purpose, and stood with the "Company" in solidarity.
I'd have to agree. But the letter didn't come out as a "corporate" letter...a letter from a CEO to board members and/or stockholders. It came out as MOG to followers.
Mixing up "godly" with corporate survival is, well, cultish.
On more than one occassion (I'm sure many of you remember having heard this as well), Craig M. said, "I'm the head of a MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR CORPORATION..." Everytime I heard him say that, I heard alarm bells ring in my head. Everytime he said that, I felt chills. Silly me...I had been taught that The Way International was "God's Ministry", the brightest spiritual light upon the face of the earth (I must have walked around with "Stupid" stamped on my forehead, then), not a "Multi-million dollar Corporation".
Along with all the other breathtakingly carnal things he was prone to let slip at that time, it soon left little doubt as to where his heart was concerning The Word.
In your opinion What the hay....only in your opinion....
Although we never sent the loyalty oath ...I still was permitted to attend fellowship in the early 90s....
I was tolerated...they didn`t mark and avoid yet..they wanted me to convince mark that every thing really WAS ever so much better and that lcm was better than ever spiritually....a LOT of folks came back hoping that was true....unfortunatly...it was just the beginning of the nastiness coming....
I was allowed to attend fellowship...but never invited to have coffeee afterwards or go out with the other believers....no one was allowed to be friends with me because my husband wouldn`t swear a loyalty oath or accept a new corpes assignement....everyone was told we were spiritually suspicious....it was an invisible barrier between us that I couldn`t penetrate...
The evil was still there what they hay.....they were just trying to mask it a little better....trying to win people back by appearing to be a little nicer....
I vividly remember the change after the homo purge roa...after that we were completely ignored...people were so afraid of me...people who had known and loved me for over 15 years.....could not even frigging GREET me at fellowship...could not sit by me....I guess they figured if I was totally and completely ignored.....I would go away of my own accord.... I t was heartbreaking.
What is wierd is...I din`t equate their behavior with THEM being screwed up....I blamed mark for being stubborn and placing us on the outside of the love of our brothers and sisters....shoot there wasn`t anything I wouldn`t or hadnt done for thos folks....and they couldn`t even bear to speak or look at me....it was a bitter bitter pill to swallow...
quote:Sorry to say I bought it too. I honestly did not see myself as standing with Geer because I went to ROA and opened up my earballs, as VPW would say, and I listened to those who did their best to convince me (and my friend) to stick with TWI. Their arguments were entirely carnal and easy to disprove with an open Bible.
Some arguments for staying may have been carnal, but others were biblical. I remember a second letter Craig wrote a month later...dated April-June 1989, which expands and gives biblical references relating to his decision. I remember something said about Moses saying to the children of Israel, he who is with me, come over here and stand with me, or something like that. (Was Moses being carnal, asking folks to stand with him, etc.?) The others that didn't stand with Moses, left.
I think that second letter expounds the biblical justification for Craig's decision.
I can tell you just from my experience, I think a lot of the biblical profit of doing what he said, was just plain peace. It was a real drag going to twig and trying to fellowship with folks who thought Craig and the BOT were evil. Withdrawing from those folks, was one of the best and most peaceful decisions I made. Like a breath of fresh air.
Criminey ...I didn`t want to carp or complain...never critisized....just wanted to attend fellowship and continue being a vital part of God`s spiritual movement....
However because Mark wasn`t playing the game right....wasn`t buying into th politics...I was no longer allowed accesss ...
Tell you what oldies...it might have been peacefull for you....but it wasn`t honest....the problems.... the evil was simply more ignorable if there was nobody there to point them out.....
quote:If he had been more loving, most of them would have eventually come around. He was too impatient and thought he had to "clean house" of all the evil before the cancer spread further. Ha!
John, I thought he WAS being loving. He was finally cleaning house of folks who were badmouthing him. It's not just a question of not being loyal; these folks were into badmouthing, whispering, murmuring, suspicious minds. Asking those folks to leave, was being very loving, especially to folks who wanted to fellowship in peace. One of the statements he wrote was "you don't try to co-exist with gangrene; you cut it out." Let's not kid ourselves, folks were given plenty of time, years, to make up their minds. Even after that, they could have come back if they wanted it. But their opinions of Craig and the BOT were evil. I thought it was better they left, personally.
not to mention that the scenarios were quite a bit different...the folks who Moses told to take a hike were not Spirit-filled believers and members of the one body of Christ.
OM, peace comes from the Prince of Peace, not the absence of people you do not personally see eye to eye with...I believe that was taught in twi all along. What you describe is known as organic unity; get rid of everyone who does not agree with the group's views. Over the next 5 years you saw how that played out....
quote:I can tell you just from my experience, I think a lot of the biblical profit of doing what he said, was just plain peace. It was a real drag going to twig and trying to fellowship with folks who thought Craig and the BOT were evil. Withdrawing from those folks, was one of the best and most peaceful decisions I made. Like a breath of fresh air.
What if those folks were right? What if Craig and the BOT were "evil" or if not evil itself then "off the beam". What if TWI and Gartmore Geer were both "off the beam"?
So you got a good feeling (peace?) by not having to listen to these folks saying stuff you didn't want to hear. So what? -- Does that make it "biblical"? - I don't think so.
quote:If he had been more loving, most of them would have eventually come around. He was too impatient and thought he had to "clean house" of all the evil before the cancer spread further. Ha!
John, I thought he WAS being loving. He was finally cleaning house of folks who were badmouthing him. It's not just a question of not being loyal; these folks were into badmouthing, whispering, murmuring, suspicious minds. Asking those folks to leave, was being very loving, especially to folks who wanted to fellowship in peace. One of the statements he wrote was "you don't try to co-exist with gangrene; you cut it out." Let's not kid ourselves, folks were given plenty of time, years, to make up their minds. Even after that, they could have come back if they wanted it. But their opinions of Craig and the BOT were evil. I thought it was better they left, personally.
So EVERYBODY who left was "badmouthing him"--where is YOUR PROOF, om?? you are talking out your --- on that, bub... that is far from the truth.
quote:If the BoT were so effed up and running TWI into the ground - you would think old Scotty would have beamed himself to HQ's without waiting a whole year. I think he was planning and writing and scheming the whole time. Yuck.
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alfakat
what I did not know in 85-89 was how deep the error ran, how high up it originated or just how damn long it had been going on. I initially thought cg must have been near the mark because many problems he noted did, in fact, exist and the bot sure acted liked whipped curs so I figured vic's reproof, delivered by cg, musta been near the mark.
HAH!! I NOW know that Poop was in fact, a serious whitewash of ANY responsibility on vpw's part for the shambles twi was in because of his tyrannical centralized control of twi and his inability to manifest any personal self-control when it came to his own over-desires. This legacy was passed to lcm, who warmed slowly, but surely to his teacher's example and soon he was swingin' just like vic....
every cause has an effect, every effect a cause, eh, bible fans??
Raf--your comparison was particularly apt, I might say....
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excathedra
....and i noticed somewhere in craig's letter (before i just laughed and stopped reading) that he said something about jesus told his "men" (did you hear that rosie and donnie) ha ha ha ha ha
that they would be known by their love
take note ~ old veep, craiggy and sceery geery..... all kinda missed the mark....
and avoided..... couldn't help myself on the avoid thingy
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Hope R.
Honestly, when I first heard PoP, I was amazed how un-exciting it was. I thought I was going to hear all kinds of "dirt" about the trustees. Instead, I heard at least an hour about CG's travails in Gartmore (boooorrringgg), another hour about him taking care of VP (booooorrrring), and another hour of him talking about people I didn't know (the dog training guy, one of his drivers, etc.) who did stuff that seemed pretty mild compared to what I thought I was going to hear.
PoP was more about Geer setting himself up as the MoG than about VP's "last will and testament". If PoP was indeed VP's final wishes - why did it take a year for CG to read it? Oh, yeah, because VP told him to wait a year... wait... did anyone else hear him say that? Any of it?
If the BoT were so effed up and running TWI into the ground - you would think old Scotty would have beamed himself to HQ's without waiting a whole year. I think he was planning and writing and scheming the whole time. Yuck.
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WordWolf
Rafael:
In that 7-minute speech, Donna called lcm
"our spiritual leader" twice
and
"our spiritual head" once.
She didn't need to seek a better word if she misspoke-
she could have called him "our spiritual leader"
all three times.
Still ridiculous, but at least less blasphemous.
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excathedra
hopie, i actually forgot geer's passing of a big fat yawn came out later....
for me personally, wierwille's death was my "freedom" in a sense. i was still "in" so i might not be telling the "truth"
but he was main worship squeeze
:)-->
(but it did take me A LOT of years to overcome stuff after his death (as you and your dearest husband) well know
love,
me
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Zshot
At the risk of de-railing this thread...
Let me jump ahead to one of the results of this LOYality letter...
Form letters were sent out from twi, with the only things different were the names. I saw the ones addressed to NY and MA. These "form" letters had no love, respect or nurturing in them. It seems to be a letter drafted in hate.
Let us not forget how many lives were torn apart with a stroke of a pen... How many marriages and friendships were shattered.
It amazed me how people could say "I love you" one day, and the following day never wish to see you again...
It's a shame when you have to wonder when somebody say "I love you", do they mean it? Or is it the empty words, just like you have heard in twi soo many times...
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What The Hay
For the record the so-called "homo witch-hunt" didn't start in 1990, it started right after the Rock of Ages; it was either 1993 or the 1994 ROA, but I am leaning more toward 1993. There was some homo-purging already going on in TWI just prior to this (that was also mentioned in the letter TWI sent out) but I am specifically marking this time when it was first publically announced within the TWI household - for a very important reason that will be revealed shortly.
I was standing with TWI right up until this time (1993) and I vividly recall getting the letter and TWI's bould (intended to rhyme with mould) pronouncement for all of us who were actively standing in the TWI household to: "Go, Stand, Smoke out homos" very shortly after the Rock of Ages.
It wasn't the "Loyalty to Loy" letter that brought down TWI. In fact, the loyalty letter was spiritually working in TWI's favor, and truthfully, TWI was on the mend (spiritually speaking) from 1990 right up until 1993. More people were comming back to TWI (this was especially true in my area) and TWI was running more Advanced classes than they ever had in the previous years.
It wasn't the loyalty to Loy letter, - it was THIS ONE people!!! Well it wasn't LCM's decision to: "smoke homo's out of the household" that ultimately brought TWI down IMO. It was LCM's decision to: CANCEL THE WOW PROGRAM! That's the decision that LCM made that REALLY was OFF THE WORD! That's right. Go, Stand, Speak God's Word was now replaced with: Go, Stand, "Smoke out homos" by the MOGFODAT!!! It only goes to prove the True God won't be easily undone - even by the president of TWI!!!
Yours truly also sent a letter to LCM to let him know just what a spirtually f**cked up decision he was making. I told LCM he was essentially letting "Barney" run TWI while he was seeing one to many "purple dinosuars." LCM didn't even have the courage to write me back! But I did get a letter from "somebody else" in TWI. What they said was if I went back to TWIG fellership it would all be explained to me there. (Like the original letter TWI sent out wasn't already clear?) I also recall thinking at the time, "Oh great, just what will be canceled next by LCM - The Rock?" [And that was right before he cancelled the ROA!] It was right around this time that I left.
The only reason things started to get better in TWI between 1990-1993 is because of the loyalty letter and LCM's decision to "move the Word" back then - but then LCM blew it for all of us in 1993 when he made the decision to "can the move of God's Word" in favor of some other political campaign.
Things haven't gotten any better in TWI ever since. You can believe it's due to the underhanded machinations and all the other politically incorrect decisions TWI now makes which is far removed with having anything to do with Gods' Word. The only way things could ever improve in TWI would be if Rosie-lie should choose to come back to the integrity of the Word of God - but frankly, she hasn't got the courage, the guts or the "spiritual hootspa and finesse" needed to pull that one off. And don't we all know it!
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igotout
sceery geery... ha!
:D--> 
:D-->
Some things I still have not yet dealt with.
I can only imagine what some have had to deal with. I always kept low key and not too involved at top levels but I used to get yelled at for not being MORE involved or rising up in leadership. Now I am glad I laid low all those years.
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Cherished Child
I never blinked any eye when Donna called Craig the "Spiritual Head of this Ministry". I just assumed she was reiterating what most followers had been programmed to accept as fact---which was that before his death, Victor Paul Wierwille had been the "Spritual Head of TWI" (MOGFODAT), but now that Elijah had passed the "spiritual Mantle" to Elisha (Craig), he was now "The Head". We had all been groomed to think more highly of both Dr. Wierwille and Craig than we ought. Most of us did not stop to ponder the deeper implications of Donna's pronouncement. MOG worship certainly didn't start when Craig assumed the throne. I remember having more than one long standing believer tell me that Dr. Wierwille was such a spiritual giant, that he was one of only three people in the entire history of man who'd experienced a direct confrontation with THE DEVIL HIMSELF---the other two being Eve and Jesus Christ!
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Cherished Child
The sad thing about the whole POP, Martindale/Geer power struggle, was that most of us assumed that one of them had to be right, and the other, spiritually off the mark. Way too late, it seems, did many of us wake up to the understanding that they were BOTH terribly F'd up! It was Like choosing between slime and mucous.
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Goey
Very well put !
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excathedra
i wonder if leaders of churches and twi offshoots require loyalty statements, certainly not to this degree, do you think ?
i never cared for veepee's tears and how "we" his "kids" were breaking his heart. get real you jerk life's not about you.
and psychogeer found it a privilege to be first in line for the yelling and screaming. man i wish i could be that spiritual. and he could dish it out too. he ruined a good friend of mine.
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CoolWaters
I'd have to agree. But the letter didn't come out as a "corporate" letter...a letter from a CEO to board members and/or stockholders. It came out as MOG to followers.
Mixing up "godly" with corporate survival is, well, cultish.
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Oakspear
rascal:
Check PT please
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Cherished Child
On more than one occassion (I'm sure many of you remember having heard this as well), Craig M. said, "I'm the head of a MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR CORPORATION..." Everytime I heard him say that, I heard alarm bells ring in my head. Everytime he said that, I felt chills. Silly me...I had been taught that The Way International was "God's Ministry", the brightest spiritual light upon the face of the earth (I must have walked around with "Stupid" stamped on my forehead, then), not a "Multi-million dollar Corporation".
Along with all the other breathtakingly carnal things he was prone to let slip at that time, it soon left little doubt as to where his heart was concerning The Word.
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rascal
In your opinion What the hay....only in your opinion....
Although we never sent the loyalty oath ...I still was permitted to attend fellowship in the early 90s....
I was tolerated...they didn`t mark and avoid yet..they wanted me to convince mark that every thing really WAS ever so much better and that lcm was better than ever spiritually....a LOT of folks came back hoping that was true....unfortunatly...it was just the beginning of the nastiness coming....
I was allowed to attend fellowship...but never invited to have coffeee afterwards or go out with the other believers....no one was allowed to be friends with me because my husband wouldn`t swear a loyalty oath or accept a new corpes assignement....everyone was told we were spiritually suspicious....it was an invisible barrier between us that I couldn`t penetrate...
The evil was still there what they hay.....they were just trying to mask it a little better....trying to win people back by appearing to be a little nicer....
I vividly remember the change after the homo purge roa...after that we were completely ignored...people were so afraid of me...people who had known and loved me for over 15 years.....could not even frigging GREET me at fellowship...could not sit by me....I guess they figured if I was totally and completely ignored.....I would go away of my own accord.... I t was heartbreaking.
What is wierd is...I din`t equate their behavior with THEM being screwed up....I blamed mark for being stubborn and placing us on the outside of the love of our brothers and sisters....shoot there wasn`t anything I wouldn`t or hadnt done for thos folks....and they couldn`t even bear to speak or look at me....it was a bitter bitter pill to swallow...
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oldiesman
Some arguments for staying may have been carnal, but others were biblical. I remember a second letter Craig wrote a month later...dated April-June 1989, which expands and gives biblical references relating to his decision. I remember something said about Moses saying to the children of Israel, he who is with me, come over here and stand with me, or something like that. (Was Moses being carnal, asking folks to stand with him, etc.?) The others that didn't stand with Moses, left.
I think that second letter expounds the biblical justification for Craig's decision.
I can tell you just from my experience, I think a lot of the biblical profit of doing what he said, was just plain peace. It was a real drag going to twig and trying to fellowship with folks who thought Craig and the BOT were evil. Withdrawing from those folks, was one of the best and most peaceful decisions I made. Like a breath of fresh air.
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Steve!
Your logic is fallacious.
To say "Well, lcm did the same thing that Moses did, and Moses wasn't acting carnally, therefore lcm wasn't acting carnally" is not logical.
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rascal
Criminey ...I didn`t want to carp or complain...never critisized....just wanted to attend fellowship and continue being a vital part of God`s spiritual movement....
However because Mark wasn`t playing the game right....wasn`t buying into th politics...I was no longer allowed accesss ...
Tell you what oldies...it might have been peacefull for you....but it wasn`t honest....the problems.... the evil was simply more ignorable if there was nobody there to point them out.....
Peace at what price???
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oldiesman
John, I thought he WAS being loving. He was finally cleaning house of folks who were badmouthing him. It's not just a question of not being loyal; these folks were into badmouthing, whispering, murmuring, suspicious minds. Asking those folks to leave, was being very loving, especially to folks who wanted to fellowship in peace. One of the statements he wrote was "you don't try to co-exist with gangrene; you cut it out." Let's not kid ourselves, folks were given plenty of time, years, to make up their minds. Even after that, they could have come back if they wanted it. But their opinions of Craig and the BOT were evil. I thought it was better they left, personally.
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alfakat
not to mention that the scenarios were quite a bit different...the folks who Moses told to take a hike were not Spirit-filled believers and members of the one body of Christ.
OM, peace comes from the Prince of Peace, not the absence of people you do not personally see eye to eye with...I believe that was taught in twi all along. What you describe is known as organic unity; get rid of everyone who does not agree with the group's views. Over the next 5 years you saw how that played out....
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Goey
Posted by Oldies,
What if those folks were right? What if Craig and the BOT were "evil" or if not evil itself then "off the beam". What if TWI and Gartmore Geer were both "off the beam"?
So you got a good feeling (peace?) by not having to listen to these folks saying stuff you didn't want to hear. So what? -- Does that make it "biblical"? - I don't think so.
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alfakat
So EVERYBODY who left was "badmouthing him"--where is YOUR PROOF, om?? you are talking out your --- on that, bub... that is far from the truth.
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oldiesman
Hope, great point. Thanks.
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