While I never got a letter of this kind, it sounds to me, and I've read the damn thing on this site or that, like y'all were being asked to stand with LCM whether he did "The Word" or not. My personal take is that it was more the kind of loyalty oath Sad Dam Hussein required of his followers than anything anyone required of a believer. Look at the gospels - Jesus never back his disciples into a corner and demanded that kind of a loyalty oath. He even forgave Judas for betraying Him.
Just a simple observation from a former mere humble peon of a believer - now free from the chains of TWI x nearly 8 years!
I haven't read this whole thread but I was there at HQ, on staff.
There were no concerns addressed, regarding ABS to Chris Geer etc...
You were not allowed to answer I follow the Lord Jesus Christ...
If you did you were dismissed from staff EXCEPT IF they needed you to complete a project or had a job function they couldn't replace then of course you were loyal and weren't fired.
....We left staff as sood as the Rock was over....
there were definite concerns and actual practice of ABS going outside the U.S. Here's a quote from the letter:
quote:The Trustees are aware that some Staff members (VF FOR SURE (my comment)) have been suggesting and even advising that abundant sharings received in our Twigs in the U.S.A. be sent to Argentina or Scotland. ...
connect the dots, om--DID the way get BETTER as a result of lcm's demands or worse??? DID he and the BOT get their .... together as a result of ridding themselves of the "unbelief" of all the "salt that lost it's savor" or did they go down the drain themselves?? simple question--relatively short time-frame and the way is as out to lunch as could be....connect the dots--this stuff did not occur in a vacuum. Were his demands in his letter something that led to Godly results or no??? things happen for a reason, om--think about it for once...
OM, seems relevant to me given the outcome of the situation. By their fruit ye shall know them.....I'd say by Craigger's fruit it was a rotten motive to send out those letters and I'd also say that you should get more of the whole stow-ree before you start casting stones there, bro.
And before the letter I got for not communicationg my allegience, there was the 3x5 card incident on a "Good Friday" when everyone was supposed to go and do communion later on. The questions asked (and correct me staffers and Corps who were at HQ if I word it wrong), were:
A.) I stand with Rev Martindale
B.) I stand with "someone else"
C.) I am confused and don't know who to stand with
In other words, a choice between men!
And if anybody answered anything other than "A", they were kicked out. Two days later, my house in Maryland was filled with Aussies, New Zealanders, a few American girls, and a Greek guy who had been given the boot for answering either "B" or "C". They had nowhere to go and their visa were instantly void due to their new "non student" status. Real nice, huh? My one friend told me of how he was awakened from his sleep at dark hundred in the morning by Allen Brown and told to "hit the road jack"..
It was the weirdest thing in the world. My Home which had been a place for teaching God's Word was like a "Safe House", and Panarello kept calling me and asking if the come over for just a "visit, cause he hadn't seen me in awhile". I finally told him that I was in fact "harboring the fugitives" that he was suspecting me of harboring, and why in the he11 don't you just come clean and ask me what you really want to know?" Hmmmph...Don't call us, we'll call you is what I finally told him...
I felt like I had seriously entered.....The Twilight Zone...do dee do doo, do dee do doo..
Well, all I can say is, that I don't remember the exact sequence of events during the fog, as I had two babies in less than two years, between 87 and 89 and was pretty preoccupied. But I do rmember getting the loyalty letter and thinking "what the heck is THIS all about?" We hadn't been involved for a while already. So naturally we didn't respond to the letter.
I remember though that we did get our "dropped corps" letter in June I think of 1990, which was at least a couple of years after we resigned our "position" with the way. I remember thinking that it sure took them a long time to "drop" us. :D-->
quote:...as I had two babies in less than two years, between 87 and 89 and was pretty preoccupied.
Yikes!!!! You were busy, Mom! Give this woman a Cold One. :)-->
That just made me think how inconsquential and miniscule so much of this crap was. Loyalty letters. --> I got yer loyalty letter.
Greater loyalty hath no man or woman than to the woman who gave them birth. Socks 5:2b. Take THAT and stick it where the zip codes don't shine, WAY!!! It really reminds me what a load of self-gratifying pigwash I was in to. It makes me ashamed.
Time itself has proven the weight of LCM's loyalty oath. It was ill conceived, and time has proven, unGodly. All the ins and outs and what ifs and maybes, and coulda, shoulda, wouldas will never change what happened.
The loyalty issue began sometime after March 8, 1989 within the in residence 17th corps. They were were to turn in a 3X5 CARD to the corps coordinators stating whether they
a. Stood with LCM
b. Stood with Geer
C. Were confused as to what was right (or something like that)
If they choose Geer or Confused they had to immediately leave in residence training ... (Confusion is of the devil....dontcha know???)
After that it went to the full time root locale and limb/region employees (waypay.)
It then went to the Way Corps on the field. Eventually, the good little Korpz were asked to go through each member of their fellowships and begin weeding them out according to their loyalty.
Oldiesman....picking apart each letter, word by word, innuendo by innuendo doesn't show the bigger picture. Most of these letters were read aloud at Corps Nights and special corps meetings all over the country & and the world. There were all kinds of things that were SAID that were not necessarily reflected in the PRINTED MATTER that was out in circulation.
Although outrageous, there is a bright side. When a close corps friend of mine showed me the letter, I decided at that time that it was time to exit, stage right. (It was the proverbial straw)
How many other people avoided the nightmare of the '90s brand of TWI as a result of seeing that letter?
I was out by then, but I either got the letter or read the letter from someone else who got it (I was with a small offshoot at the time). And the letter I read, addressed to the Corps, definitely had the "don't give me any of that standing with God crap" line in it. Remember, there was more than one letter going around.
Heck, in TWI-1, no one excommunicated you for reading someone else's stuff, or for giving money to your local church. (They'd recommend you give to TWI, but no one kicked you out if you didn't.) I bought plenty of Christian books from other sources. So I think your argument that "the JW's wouldn't let you listen to someone else" doesn't hold up. I don't know what the JW's will or won't do -- but I know that TWI used to let you do what you wanted!
If I had just been through watching Craig dance around in a leotard as if he was a star, then hearing the BOT agree with Geer that they needed to completely change their ways, then hardly hear from Craig for 3 years, AND knowing that every time I had an important question about the ministry that I would be kept in the dark, well yeah, I would have had a hard time saying that I would stand with Craig, too!!!
I remember hearing about that letter that you all received from Craig. However, I was already out of TWI by then and did not get a chance to receive a copy myself. Oh darn. It sounds like I really missed out. However, I don't really feel so bad about this as you see, I sent Craig a letter myself in June of 1988. And yes, I did sign my name and include my address. You know, just in case he wanted to get back to me. My letter word for word, with one slight mispelling of a certain word and word family to make this more palatable for Grease Spot Cafe, was as follows:
June 6, 1988
L. Craig Martindale
The Way International
P.O. Box 328
New Knoxville, Ohio 45871
Dear Craig:
Isn't it wonderful that God has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in the heavenlies in Christ? I got your most recent form letter, the special annual Rock of Ages edition. Thank you so very much. Other than the error in it, it was really nifty. On the first side you showed such restraint by not capitalizing the word "you" as it refers to your master apostle V.P. Wierwille. I am so proud of you. You seem to be making such strides in loosening the bands of idolatry in your life.
Oh, but there was one itsy bitsy little error on the second side, which I'm sure is not important to you, but which I thought I might point out, because you're so quick to let everyone know how humble and meek you are. You see I have two big toes. Now Craig, reach down and touch one of your big toes. Now Craig, reach up and touch your head. See if you can do it without grabbing anything else in between. Please notice that you have only one head. Now you can't tell me that your big toes take the place of your head in your own body can you? I sure hope not. We also should know that you and I, as the big toes in the body of Christ (although it seems that you desire continued service as the in between member), can not take the place of the Head, which is Jesus Christ, in spite of our wonderful renewed minds, and even with the use of tremendous believing images of victory.
Yes Craig, there is only one Head of the body of believers of which you and I are a part by the grace of the new birth. He is not I. He is not you, inspite of your high position in the annals of religious Way world. He is our Lord (Please capitalize Lord from now on when you refer to the only begotten Son of God.), and Saviour Jesus Christ.
That's very good Craig. You took that bit of reproof so well. You're making such strides in your believing. I did however, recently hear about your conversation with the limb leader (since then former) of South Carolina. Perhaps, in your future conversations with the leadership of God's Ministry you can show increased spiritual growth by graduating from the use of four letter words to that of six letter. This Way, instead of telling them "Flock you", you can Rise in your believing by saying "I'm a flocker", or "I'm all flocked up". This would certainly be more honest, and we all know the extent of your desire towards honesty and foreplay.
I do look forward to your next form letter and with the opportunity to chat with you again. Perhaps, next time I will receive another one of your Way International Finance Department envelopes in place of your Rock of Ages envelope. Furthermore, I can hardly weight to receive my next copy of the Weigh magazine, and with it the opportunity to learn more of God's Word from you the successor to the throne and legacy of the Teacher.
What? The bible says in Ephesians 4:11 that He (Christ) gave some teachers (plural). You mean that the apostle Paul, no relation to Victor, writing by revelation said their was more than one. Well we had just better not read that verse anymore. Perhaps, we should only read our collateral readings and Way notes in the margins of our bibles. After all we have quite a few. I'm really not sure that I have such a great knowledge of the bible, because I have spent so much time studying these collateral readings, but doesn't it say somewhere, something like "Search the collaterals for in them ye think ye have eternal life."
Thank you so very much for your invitation to this year's festival in Ohio, but I am afraid I can't make it this time. I really did look forward to it. I have so very much to share. Although, I was not in attendance at last year's Rock, I did have the inspiring and electrifying privilege and honor of seeing you, by video tape, teach those privileged few, the proud, the Corps. You looked so macho and handsome in your bullet proof vest, under the heat of August in Ohio. Will you be wearing the same one again this year?
Love to you and all my wonderful brothers and sisters in Way land at New Knoxville.
Your loving brother in Christ,
Mark Sanguinetti
P.S. Should you desire to write me a personal return letter, perhaps you should seek the counsel of Walter and others of the collateral research department.
Oh geeeze, socks, thank you for saying what you did. Although I didn't intend to make anyone feel ashamed or anything. ;)-->
But here's the "funny" part of the story. A well known OB/GYN who was with TWI was my doctor during this time. We lived only an hour or so away from her, and I knew her from my friendship with her son and his wife, who were in the 10th corps....anyway....
My second daughter was born during the ROA of '89. My doctor actually left the Rock early to be home in time to deliver her. It was a scheduled C-section, and there were some risks...and she made sure she was home in time to take care of me. I actually stayed at her house...but anyway, I always felt a little guilty because I was no longer involved with the way at that point, but she didn't know it. We just never discussed it, and it never came up, not even when hubby and me would hang out with her son and his wifey, when we'd drive over for my doctor's visits. They were so very kind, hospitable, and we just had fun visiting and such....
Later I learned that they ended up staying with TWI and are still involved as far as I know. I've always felt like I should have been more forthcoming about what we (hubby and me) thought, but it just didn't seem to be too relevant to REAL life. Which was having babies and such at that point.
Anyway, your words have touched me more than you know....
It was during this period of time and maybe a few years after this that we believe LCM had a continuing mental breakdown. I believe he cracked under the pressure of all this. It was not a sudden "snap" but one that happened over time.
It took a while to see it and it took even longer to come to grips with it. But basically LCM was in a self destructive mode at that time and in years to follow. Having had no REAL worldly experience prior to this, he made bad decision upon bad decision upon bad decision. He began to tear down himself and everything that was good around him. It almost reminds me of those who go postal and kill fellow workers and even loved ones while turning the gun on themselves. Now LCM is not a killer but I believe some of these same self destructive mannerisms were in place in his life.
I believe it was caused by:
the burdens that he allowed to be placed on him
burdens that he placed on himself
wrong teaching and false doctrines by others
his wrong teaching and his false doctrines
lack of accountability to a board or other members who could "vote him off the Island"
lack of REAL managerial experience
I wouldn't doubt that he was relieved when he finally crashed and burned. Should have happened 10 years sooner. The wake of destruction left behind him is outstanding.
Though we did not have to swear allegience, we stayed in. I just tried to stay out of his way and the way of his cronies to avoid their wrath. That worked for a few years. But really, the right time to leave was when the majority did or should I say when the majority were kicked out of TWI. Because he just kept getting worse if you can believe that.
I really hate to even sound like I'm sticking up for Oldiesman, but I see his point, while not actually agreeing with it.
I started a similar thread last year and was beat up on by my friend Rascal at the time too! :(-->
When you read only the letter that we have access to, it doesn't really come off as all that bad. But what you miss is the context and the follow-up. What you also miss is the actual text of a letter that uses the words "swear a loyalty oath" or anything like it. While those who had alternate letters sent to them are trustworthy in my book, memory isn't always the most reliabale thing in the world. I'd really like to see one of those letters that used the term "swear a loyalty oath".
Regarding the phrase "don't give me any of that loyalty to God crap", if LCM was a genuine man who stood for God, and Geer wasn't, why wouldn't the Way Corps want to stand by his side rather than with someone who opposed him? If the leader of the group that you have toiled and sweated for, and given your money to, was being attacked, it would be cowardly to stay neutral by saying "I stand with God, not with any man". But LCM wasn't a genuine man who stood for God, was he? We knew that he was off, so hearing him ask for allegience was just the last straw, wasn't it?
Back in the days when we thought Wierwille was the MOG, would we have been so indignant if Wierwille had made similar demands in similar situations. Probably not IMHO, because Wierwille came across (deceitfully, I believe) as worthy of loyalty, while Martindale came across as an idiot.
The strong arm tactics, bullying and disrespect didn't help either, I'm sure. Martindale and his stooges did nothing to earn the loyalty that he craved, but did his utmost to drive good people away.
By the way, in the "Galatians Tapes/Leaders Tapes I & II" Martindale quotes himself as saying 'don't give me any of that loyalty to God crap".
What you are saying makes alot of sense, but...but...but....
You gotta remember that many of us corpsbots knew Craig, I mean like in the sense that he was "one of us" and he really didn't have any "stooges" til after the fog and he got wierd in the 90's.
He just wasn't much of a "leader" honestly. Ever. He was always more comfy "hanging out" and being a "corpsbot" like the rest of us. All the crap that took place when VP died freaked him out, like Igotout and Socks said.
He was "in way over his head." that was obvious. At least to most of us. :D--> And there were those who had a vested interest in keeping him in charge.
OK, so I'm saying the same thing you said really, just in a different way. :D-->
Awww, Momhood ROCKS, ex10. :)--> Most things would become insignificant if I knew I was 50 breaths away from my last. Everything else fades when we see the first one being taken, too. It never really gets any better than that, does it? You were workin'!:)-->
There's that movie "City Slickers". Curly's big line about the secret of life. "Just one thing". "That's what you have to figure out" he says. It's sappy, but it's true I think. Whatever that one thing is that really fulfills us, that we live for, give for. That's it. I know I found mine and everyday since has had one of those silly goofy smile moments when it hits me again. It's like time stops and I feel as if I'm living forever. :)--> My children have a lot to do with it.
yeah, well, after thinking about this thread a little, I'll post my opinion. But I'm sure it will cause some crud. :D-->
I don't think anybody who was in "leadership" at the time of VP's death, could have taken over as the "leader" of the way. The "loyalty letter" proved it.
VP was such a controlling type, and such a strong personality, that he had run off anybody who could "compete" with him years earlier. I truly believe that there wasn't anybody left who could have "filled his shoes." He didn't like competition with his MOG status.
That's why he chose Craig. He would never "compete" with his "Father in the Word."
Sadly, the empire VP build came crashing down as soon as he died. It was all built on one man's "ministry" and that man was too egocentric to trust anyone to keep his thing going, after he died. I think he knew it, thus his whinings in the POP. But it was too late.
I agree that VPW ran off just about anybody with the charisma to replace him. He chose Craig for being a tushy-kisser.
But I think Craig also had a huge envy problem. He wanted to be the MOGFODAT, not just the next president of TWI. So he replaced the classes (WAP), the programs (Way Disciples, new Corps principles), published his own books, and even changed the vocabulary ("prevailing," ugh!). His ultimate ego trip, perhaps even more than having all eyes on him at the ballet, was the loyalty oath. Unfortunately, it backfired, and showed him that very few people were ready to put him on that MOG pedestal.
Oak..I don`t beat ANYBODY up....shame on you! However...it ISN`T just my faulty memory here...I am a little offended....you have more than one other poster backing me up on the wording of the letter sent to those of us on the field.
Maybe the first two letters that went out to staff and paid corpes on the field were not so blunt...so cut and dry...but the one that came out to those of us out on the field was nasty...belligerant and uncompromising....there were no options....no explanations...refusal to be bullied resulted in ugly backlash...
The wording of that letter is burned in my brain oak.....it HAD to be very, very CLEAR what was being demanded...as Mark and I were completely committed to serving in twi for the rest of our lives....we never concieved of a life outside of twi....and continued serving as best we could in SPITE of the lack of decency shown because of our refusal to comply with a demand that wasn`t Craigs to make.
He was not right on....The man in charge of twi our ministry...the one we trusted with our lives.....was not spiritual sound.......we had to face that reality for the first time...we had to for the first time in both our adult lives stand up and say no to our leadership....neither of us had ever contemplated NOT doing what our leaders and ministry deemed necessary for God.....we were completely sold out....for God`s sake oak...I aborted a wanted child oas per *recomendation* from leadership......I was SOLD out!!! Do you honestly think that our refusal was not seriously, carefully considered ...and at last mournfully refused to be bullied into a wrong action?????
All of a sudden ....we are faced with the reality that these people are demanding loyalty..not to God...not to the ministry....not to the movement of his word....but to a man....one who was mean spirited...It HAD to be cut and dried oak....absolutely chrystal clear ...or we would have never EVER have considered non compliance.
As others pointed out....what GOOD did it do for the ministry....those who even swore the oath lcm? The whole ministry was by then spiraling out of control....bearing the fruit of the rotten behavior physically and spiritually by those in charge.
[This message was edited by rascal on March 23, 2004 at 7:29.]
Were you by chance very supportive of Craig about the time of the loyaly letters? Say '89 or so? Just curious ...I am wondering if it is possible that your defense of Craig's demand for loyaly is based upon a decision that you made at the time - a decision that maybe you don't want to consider now as possibly not so good.
If I had thought that Craig was the true Mogfodat at the time, and that TWI was truly God's ministry then I would have taken the oath - no problem.
Oldies, what did you think at that time? Did you beleive that Craig was "The Man of God" and deserving of loyalty -- Many folks did. But looking back in hindsight what do you believe now? Was he really?
It seems that many folks exited TWI about the time of the loyalty letters, refusing to take the oath for various reasons. It also stands to reason that quite a few did decide to give give their loyalty to Craig at this time (for whatever reasons).
Those who did not receive letters directly must surely have been affected also, and still had to make a decision. I know that if I had been leadership and had taken a oath to Craig, (willingly or not) that I probably would have demanded or expected the same from those under me.
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Watered Garden
While I never got a letter of this kind, it sounds to me, and I've read the damn thing on this site or that, like y'all were being asked to stand with LCM whether he did "The Word" or not. My personal take is that it was more the kind of loyalty oath Sad Dam Hussein required of his followers than anything anyone required of a believer. Look at the gospels - Jesus never back his disciples into a corner and demanded that kind of a loyalty oath. He even forgave Judas for betraying Him.
Just a simple observation from a former mere humble peon of a believer - now free from the chains of TWI x nearly 8 years!
WG
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jar1122
I haven't read this whole thread but I was there at HQ, on staff.
There were no concerns addressed, regarding ABS to Chris Geer etc...
You were not allowed to answer I follow the Lord Jesus Christ...
If you did you were dismissed from staff EXCEPT IF they needed you to complete a project or had a job function they couldn't replace then of course you were loyal and weren't fired.
....We left staff as sood as the Rock was over....
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oldiesman
jar1122,
there were definite concerns and actual practice of ABS going outside the U.S. Here's a quote from the letter:
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oldiesman
Alfakat, we're talking about the 1989 letter; decisions made years later are not relevant to the letter's merits, or lack thereof.
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rascal
As you can see by others responses oldies....it WAS more than just writing a letter of stand and support....
We were required to swear an oath...an oath of allegiance to LCM ....
Well *MISTER* Lingo....lol I just guess he showed YOU didn`t he???
Thats what struck me as in our letter....how vindictivly childish....how hurtfull...
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alfakat
connect the dots, om--DID the way get BETTER as a result of lcm's demands or worse??? DID he and the BOT get their .... together as a result of ridding themselves of the "unbelief" of all the "salt that lost it's savor" or did they go down the drain themselves?? simple question--relatively short time-frame and the way is as out to lunch as could be....connect the dots--this stuff did not occur in a vacuum. Were his demands in his letter something that led to Godly results or no??? things happen for a reason, om--think about it for once...
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WaywardWayfer
OM, seems relevant to me given the outcome of the situation. By their fruit ye shall know them.....I'd say by Craigger's fruit it was a rotten motive to send out those letters and I'd also say that you should get more of the whole stow-ree before you start casting stones there, bro.
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J0nny Ling0
And before the letter I got for not communicationg my allegience, there was the 3x5 card incident on a "Good Friday" when everyone was supposed to go and do communion later on. The questions asked (and correct me staffers and Corps who were at HQ if I word it wrong), were:
A.) I stand with Rev Martindale
B.) I stand with "someone else"
C.) I am confused and don't know who to stand with
In other words, a choice between men!
And if anybody answered anything other than "A", they were kicked out. Two days later, my house in Maryland was filled with Aussies, New Zealanders, a few American girls, and a Greek guy who had been given the boot for answering either "B" or "C". They had nowhere to go and their visa were instantly void due to their new "non student" status. Real nice, huh? My one friend told me of how he was awakened from his sleep at dark hundred in the morning by Allen Brown and told to "hit the road jack"..
It was the weirdest thing in the world. My Home which had been a place for teaching God's Word was like a "Safe House", and Panarello kept calling me and asking if the come over for just a "visit, cause he hadn't seen me in awhile". I finally told him that I was in fact "harboring the fugitives" that he was suspecting me of harboring, and why in the he11 don't you just come clean and ask me what you really want to know?" Hmmmph...Don't call us, we'll call you is what I finally told him...
I felt like I had seriously entered.....The Twilight Zone...do dee do doo, do dee do doo..
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ex10
Well, all I can say is, that I don't remember the exact sequence of events during the fog, as I had two babies in less than two years, between 87 and 89 and was pretty preoccupied. But I do rmember getting the loyalty letter and thinking "what the heck is THIS all about?" We hadn't been involved for a while already. So naturally we didn't respond to the letter.
I remember though that we did get our "dropped corps" letter in June I think of 1990, which was at least a couple of years after we resigned our "position" with the way. I remember thinking that it sure took them a long time to "drop" us.
:D-->
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socks
ex10 sed:
Yikes!!!! You were busy, Mom! Give this woman a Cold One.
:)-->
That just made me think how inconsquential and miniscule so much of this crap was. Loyalty letters.
--> I got yer loyalty letter.
Greater loyalty hath no man or woman than to the woman who gave them birth. Socks 5:2b. Take THAT and stick it where the zip codes don't shine, WAY!!! It really reminds me what a load of self-gratifying pigwash I was in to. It makes me ashamed.
*clink* Cheers to LIFE!
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Radar OReilly
Time itself has proven the weight of LCM's loyalty oath. It was ill conceived, and time has proven, unGodly. All the ins and outs and what ifs and maybes, and coulda, shoulda, wouldas will never change what happened.
The loyalty issue began sometime after March 8, 1989 within the in residence 17th corps. They were were to turn in a 3X5 CARD to the corps coordinators stating whether they
a. Stood with LCM
b. Stood with Geer
C. Were confused as to what was right (or something like that)
If they choose Geer or Confused they had to immediately leave in residence training ... (Confusion is of the devil....dontcha know???)
After that it went to the full time root locale and limb/region employees (waypay.)
It then went to the Way Corps on the field. Eventually, the good little Korpz were asked to go through each member of their fellowships and begin weeding them out according to their loyalty.
Oldiesman....picking apart each letter, word by word, innuendo by innuendo doesn't show the bigger picture. Most of these letters were read aloud at Corps Nights and special corps meetings all over the country & and the world. There were all kinds of things that were SAID that were not necessarily reflected in the PRINTED MATTER that was out in circulation.
Radar
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markomalley
Although outrageous, there is a bright side. When a close corps friend of mine showed me the letter, I decided at that time that it was time to exit, stage right. (It was the proverbial straw)
How many other people avoided the nightmare of the '90s brand of TWI as a result of seeing that letter?
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shazdancer
Sheesh, Oldies,
I was out by then, but I either got the letter or read the letter from someone else who got it (I was with a small offshoot at the time). And the letter I read, addressed to the Corps, definitely had the "don't give me any of that standing with God crap" line in it. Remember, there was more than one letter going around.
Heck, in TWI-1, no one excommunicated you for reading someone else's stuff, or for giving money to your local church. (They'd recommend you give to TWI, but no one kicked you out if you didn't.) I bought plenty of Christian books from other sources. So I think your argument that "the JW's wouldn't let you listen to someone else" doesn't hold up. I don't know what the JW's will or won't do -- but I know that TWI used to let you do what you wanted!
If I had just been through watching Craig dance around in a leotard as if he was a star, then hearing the BOT agree with Geer that they needed to completely change their ways, then hardly hear from Craig for 3 years, AND knowing that every time I had an important question about the ministry that I would be kept in the dark, well yeah, I would have had a hard time saying that I would stand with Craig, too!!!
Shaz
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Mark Sanguinetti
I remember hearing about that letter that you all received from Craig. However, I was already out of TWI by then and did not get a chance to receive a copy myself. Oh darn. It sounds like I really missed out. However, I don't really feel so bad about this as you see, I sent Craig a letter myself in June of 1988. And yes, I did sign my name and include my address. You know, just in case he wanted to get back to me. My letter word for word, with one slight mispelling of a certain word and word family to make this more palatable for Grease Spot Cafe, was as follows:
June 6, 1988
L. Craig Martindale
The Way International
P.O. Box 328
New Knoxville, Ohio 45871
Dear Craig:
Isn't it wonderful that God has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in the heavenlies in Christ? I got your most recent form letter, the special annual Rock of Ages edition. Thank you so very much. Other than the error in it, it was really nifty. On the first side you showed such restraint by not capitalizing the word "you" as it refers to your master apostle V.P. Wierwille. I am so proud of you. You seem to be making such strides in loosening the bands of idolatry in your life.
Oh, but there was one itsy bitsy little error on the second side, which I'm sure is not important to you, but which I thought I might point out, because you're so quick to let everyone know how humble and meek you are. You see I have two big toes. Now Craig, reach down and touch one of your big toes. Now Craig, reach up and touch your head. See if you can do it without grabbing anything else in between. Please notice that you have only one head. Now you can't tell me that your big toes take the place of your head in your own body can you? I sure hope not. We also should know that you and I, as the big toes in the body of Christ (although it seems that you desire continued service as the in between member), can not take the place of the Head, which is Jesus Christ, in spite of our wonderful renewed minds, and even with the use of tremendous believing images of victory.
Yes Craig, there is only one Head of the body of believers of which you and I are a part by the grace of the new birth. He is not I. He is not you, inspite of your high position in the annals of religious Way world. He is our Lord (Please capitalize Lord from now on when you refer to the only begotten Son of God.), and Saviour Jesus Christ.
That's very good Craig. You took that bit of reproof so well. You're making such strides in your believing. I did however, recently hear about your conversation with the limb leader (since then former) of South Carolina. Perhaps, in your future conversations with the leadership of God's Ministry you can show increased spiritual growth by graduating from the use of four letter words to that of six letter. This Way, instead of telling them "Flock you", you can Rise in your believing by saying "I'm a flocker", or "I'm all flocked up". This would certainly be more honest, and we all know the extent of your desire towards honesty and foreplay.
I do look forward to your next form letter and with the opportunity to chat with you again. Perhaps, next time I will receive another one of your Way International Finance Department envelopes in place of your Rock of Ages envelope. Furthermore, I can hardly weight to receive my next copy of the Weigh magazine, and with it the opportunity to learn more of God's Word from you the successor to the throne and legacy of the Teacher.
What? The bible says in Ephesians 4:11 that He (Christ) gave some teachers (plural). You mean that the apostle Paul, no relation to Victor, writing by revelation said their was more than one. Well we had just better not read that verse anymore. Perhaps, we should only read our collateral readings and Way notes in the margins of our bibles. After all we have quite a few. I'm really not sure that I have such a great knowledge of the bible, because I have spent so much time studying these collateral readings, but doesn't it say somewhere, something like "Search the collaterals for in them ye think ye have eternal life."
Thank you so very much for your invitation to this year's festival in Ohio, but I am afraid I can't make it this time. I really did look forward to it. I have so very much to share. Although, I was not in attendance at last year's Rock, I did have the inspiring and electrifying privilege and honor of seeing you, by video tape, teach those privileged few, the proud, the Corps. You looked so macho and handsome in your bullet proof vest, under the heat of August in Ohio. Will you be wearing the same one again this year?
Love to you and all my wonderful brothers and sisters in Way land at New Knoxville.
Your loving brother in Christ,
Mark Sanguinetti
P.S. Should you desire to write me a personal return letter, perhaps you should seek the counsel of Walter and others of the collateral research department.
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ex10
Oh geeeze, socks, thank you for saying what you did. Although I didn't intend to make anyone feel ashamed or anything.
;)-->
But here's the "funny" part of the story. A well known OB/GYN who was with TWI was my doctor during this time. We lived only an hour or so away from her, and I knew her from my friendship with her son and his wife, who were in the 10th corps....anyway....
My second daughter was born during the ROA of '89. My doctor actually left the Rock early to be home in time to deliver her. It was a scheduled C-section, and there were some risks...and she made sure she was home in time to take care of me. I actually stayed at her house...but anyway, I always felt a little guilty because I was no longer involved with the way at that point, but she didn't know it. We just never discussed it, and it never came up, not even when hubby and me would hang out with her son and his wifey, when we'd drive over for my doctor's visits. They were so very kind, hospitable, and we just had fun visiting and such....
Later I learned that they ended up staying with TWI and are still involved as far as I know. I've always felt like I should have been more forthcoming about what we (hubby and me) thought, but it just didn't seem to be too relevant to REAL life. Which was having babies and such at that point.
Anyway, your words have touched me more than you know....
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igotout
It was during this period of time and maybe a few years after this that we believe LCM had a continuing mental breakdown. I believe he cracked under the pressure of all this. It was not a sudden "snap" but one that happened over time.
It took a while to see it and it took even longer to come to grips with it. But basically LCM was in a self destructive mode at that time and in years to follow. Having had no REAL worldly experience prior to this, he made bad decision upon bad decision upon bad decision. He began to tear down himself and everything that was good around him. It almost reminds me of those who go postal and kill fellow workers and even loved ones while turning the gun on themselves. Now LCM is not a killer but I believe some of these same self destructive mannerisms were in place in his life.
I believe it was caused by:
the burdens that he allowed to be placed on him
burdens that he placed on himself
wrong teaching and false doctrines by others
his wrong teaching and his false doctrines
lack of accountability to a board or other members who could "vote him off the Island"
lack of REAL managerial experience
I wouldn't doubt that he was relieved when he finally crashed and burned. Should have happened 10 years sooner. The wake of destruction left behind him is outstanding.
Though we did not have to swear allegience, we stayed in. I just tried to stay out of his way and the way of his cronies to avoid their wrath. That worked for a few years. But really, the right time to leave was when the majority did or should I say when the majority were kicked out of TWI. Because he just kept getting worse if you can believe that.
John R.
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Oakspear
I really hate to even sound like I'm sticking up for Oldiesman, but I see his point, while not actually agreeing with it.
I started a similar thread last year and was beat up on by my friend Rascal at the time too!
:(-->
When you read only the letter that we have access to, it doesn't really come off as all that bad. But what you miss is the context and the follow-up. What you also miss is the actual text of a letter that uses the words "swear a loyalty oath" or anything like it. While those who had alternate letters sent to them are trustworthy in my book, memory isn't always the most reliabale thing in the world. I'd really like to see one of those letters that used the term "swear a loyalty oath".
Regarding the phrase "don't give me any of that loyalty to God crap", if LCM was a genuine man who stood for God, and Geer wasn't, why wouldn't the Way Corps want to stand by his side rather than with someone who opposed him? If the leader of the group that you have toiled and sweated for, and given your money to, was being attacked, it would be cowardly to stay neutral by saying "I stand with God, not with any man". But LCM wasn't a genuine man who stood for God, was he? We knew that he was off, so hearing him ask for allegience was just the last straw, wasn't it?
Back in the days when we thought Wierwille was the MOG, would we have been so indignant if Wierwille had made similar demands in similar situations. Probably not IMHO, because Wierwille came across (deceitfully, I believe) as worthy of loyalty, while Martindale came across as an idiot.
The strong arm tactics, bullying and disrespect didn't help either, I'm sure. Martindale and his stooges did nothing to earn the loyalty that he craved, but did his utmost to drive good people away.
By the way, in the "Galatians Tapes/Leaders Tapes I & II" Martindale quotes himself as saying 'don't give me any of that loyalty to God crap".
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ex10
Oakspear
What you are saying makes alot of sense, but...but...but....
You gotta remember that many of us corpsbots knew Craig, I mean like in the sense that he was "one of us" and he really didn't have any "stooges" til after the fog and he got wierd in the 90's.
He just wasn't much of a "leader" honestly. Ever. He was always more comfy "hanging out" and being a "corpsbot" like the rest of us. All the crap that took place when VP died freaked him out, like Igotout and Socks said.
He was "in way over his head." that was obvious. At least to most of us.
:D--> And there were those who had a vested interest in keeping him in charge.
OK, so I'm saying the same thing you said really, just in a different way.
:D-->
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socks
Awww, Momhood ROCKS, ex10.
:)--> Most things would become insignificant if I knew I was 50 breaths away from my last. Everything else fades when we see the first one being taken, too. It never really gets any better than that, does it? You were workin'! 
:)-->
There's that movie "City Slickers". Curly's big line about the secret of life. "Just one thing". "That's what you have to figure out" he says. It's sappy, but it's true I think. Whatever that one thing is that really fulfills us, that we live for, give for. That's it. I know I found mine and everyday since has had one of those silly goofy smile moments when it hits me again. It's like time stops and I feel as if I'm living forever.
:)--> My children have a lot to do with it.
As if!
:D-->
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ex10
yeah, well, after thinking about this thread a little, I'll post my opinion. But I'm sure it will cause some crud.
:D-->
I don't think anybody who was in "leadership" at the time of VP's death, could have taken over as the "leader" of the way. The "loyalty letter" proved it.
VP was such a controlling type, and such a strong personality, that he had run off anybody who could "compete" with him years earlier. I truly believe that there wasn't anybody left who could have "filled his shoes." He didn't like competition with his MOG status.
That's why he chose Craig. He would never "compete" with his "Father in the Word."
Sadly, the empire VP build came crashing down as soon as he died. It was all built on one man's "ministry" and that man was too egocentric to trust anyone to keep his thing going, after he died. I think he knew it, thus his whinings in the POP. But it was too late.
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shazdancer
Dear ex10,
I agree that VPW ran off just about anybody with the charisma to replace him. He chose Craig for being a tushy-kisser.
But I think Craig also had a huge envy problem. He wanted to be the MOGFODAT, not just the next president of TWI. So he replaced the classes (WAP), the programs (Way Disciples, new Corps principles), published his own books, and even changed the vocabulary ("prevailing," ugh!). His ultimate ego trip, perhaps even more than having all eyes on him at the ballet, was the loyalty oath. Unfortunately, it backfired, and showed him that very few people were ready to put him on that MOG pedestal.
Regards,
Shaz
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pjroberge
ex10:
The doctor you talked about wouldn't be Dr. Raw....with a merry-go-round pony in her basement would it?
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rascal
Oak..I don`t beat ANYBODY up....shame on you! However...it ISN`T just my faulty memory here...I am a little offended....you have more than one other poster backing me up on the wording of the letter sent to those of us on the field.
Maybe the first two letters that went out to staff and paid corpes on the field were not so blunt...so cut and dry...but the one that came out to those of us out on the field was nasty...belligerant and uncompromising....there were no options....no explanations...refusal to be bullied resulted in ugly backlash...
The wording of that letter is burned in my brain oak.....it HAD to be very, very CLEAR what was being demanded...as Mark and I were completely committed to serving in twi for the rest of our lives....we never concieved of a life outside of twi....and continued serving as best we could in SPITE of the lack of decency shown because of our refusal to comply with a demand that wasn`t Craigs to make.
He was not right on....The man in charge of twi our ministry...the one we trusted with our lives.....was not spiritual sound.......we had to face that reality for the first time...we had to for the first time in both our adult lives stand up and say no to our leadership....neither of us had ever contemplated NOT doing what our leaders and ministry deemed necessary for God.....we were completely sold out....for God`s sake oak...I aborted a wanted child oas per *recomendation* from leadership......I was SOLD out!!! Do you honestly think that our refusal was not seriously, carefully considered ...and at last mournfully refused to be bullied into a wrong action?????
All of a sudden ....we are faced with the reality that these people are demanding loyalty..not to God...not to the ministry....not to the movement of his word....but to a man....one who was mean spirited...It HAD to be cut and dried oak....absolutely chrystal clear ...or we would have never EVER have considered non compliance.
As others pointed out....what GOOD did it do for the ministry....those who even swore the oath lcm? The whole ministry was by then spiraling out of control....bearing the fruit of the rotten behavior physically and spiritually by those in charge.
[This message was edited by rascal on March 23, 2004 at 7:29.]
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Goey
Oldies,
Were you by chance very supportive of Craig about the time of the loyaly letters? Say '89 or so? Just curious ...I am wondering if it is possible that your defense of Craig's demand for loyaly is based upon a decision that you made at the time - a decision that maybe you don't want to consider now as possibly not so good.
If I had thought that Craig was the true Mogfodat at the time, and that TWI was truly God's ministry then I would have taken the oath - no problem.
Oldies, what did you think at that time? Did you beleive that Craig was "The Man of God" and deserving of loyalty -- Many folks did. But looking back in hindsight what do you believe now? Was he really?
It seems that many folks exited TWI about the time of the loyalty letters, refusing to take the oath for various reasons. It also stands to reason that quite a few did decide to give give their loyalty to Craig at this time (for whatever reasons).
Those who did not receive letters directly must surely have been affected also, and still had to make a decision. I know that if I had been leadership and had taken a oath to Craig, (willingly or not) that I probably would have demanded or expected the same from those under me.
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