in other words, a perfect twi leader: did not let the bible get in the way of what he lusted after. I think I will skip the "charisma" and settle for integrity instead. As to "few" leaders or no, I am sure you cannot speak for a fraction of twi "leaders"--I was one and you don't know me from jacksheist. Now multiply me times a couple hundred and you have NO idea whether it was few or many. It is not a disgrace to say you don't know when you don't, UH.....
Whether VPW taught his leaders his sexual practices, or simply included some who already were adulterers, the result's the same. He didn't fire RP when it became known that he was a loose cannon, did he?
Dear Oldies,
You said...
quote:The punchline: women have more power in TWI than they realize, or would care to admit.
SOME TWI women might have SOME pull with their own husbands, but that should not be equated with having pull with TWI leadership. When my 1st hubby decided to drink at ROA '80, we were both promptly fired from Staff and told to relocate to AZ. This "assignment" came from VP himself, who spoke only to my husband, while hubby was drunk. The next day, I asked to talk to VPW about it. I was stopped by Don W., and told that "Dad" had decreed it, so I would be blessed if I did it. It didn't even phase him when I said with tears that my parents would be separated from their first grandchild by such a move.
I got HIM into TWI. I never had a drunk day in my life. Women, power? Puh-leez!
And BTW, just so you understand how "spiritual" that decision was, it bombed. We were told we were going to AZ to be close to the new LC, and introductions were made at the Rock. Well, once we got there, the LC quickly blew us off, then didn't last 6 months there himself. There was no contact from the BOT. I was abandoned with a drinking husband and a baby. The "Corps household" was a sham.
You also spoke about how, had you known, you would have brought the accusations to Don W. and expected that you would have received an honest explanation. Do you not know that Don also was involved in adultery? And after reading my story above, do you still think that Don wouldn't have whitewashed the whole thing to you?
I'm jumping into this late in the discussion - last time I looked it was about Craig's letter from 1989... :D-->
Catcup speaks the truth about RP. Let me tell you the same tale from how I saw it.
I was in Way Prod in residence. So was RP. He was the head of the Sickth Corpse Way Prod dept. He had his own office in Kenyon - backstage on the tip-top floor - which was more like a 2 room suite. There were several rooms on the 2nd floor - probably old music classrooms, where I would go to write and to get away from the crowd. There was always a pot of coffee back there, too - so I took advantage of it often.
One night, I wrote a song that I really believed was inspired, I was very happy with it. I wanted to share it with someone. It was really late- maybe 1 or 2 a.m. (there was no curfew back then). I had seen RP and a single Corps woman, DS, heading up to R's office earlier that night. They told me that they were working on some lyrics that R. was stuck on and she was good with words. I believed them - why shouldn't I?
Anyway, after I wrote the song, I went upstairs to see if they were still around to play it for them and.... oops! No, they weren't nekkid or anything - but they were in a bit of a compromising position - she was giving him a backrub, he was shirtless. No, I didn't say anything - I was in denial - there had to be a reasonable explanation for it, after all he was married! And it was only a back rub...
Now, Uncle Hairy - I only knew RP from Way Prod. I didn't know him or his reputation when I was in-rez. Why should I? I was never in his area. I'm sure he did nice things for people - so did VP.
As far as the other woman that Cat was talking about - I will also say that she was taken advantage of by several married men. I didn't know about it until our last year in-rez was almost over with, and didn't know about her encounters with VP until after we graduated. Was she complicit? That's a really hard thing for me to judge, knowing what I know now. Hindsight is always 20/20 as the saying goes. If you asked me this a few years ago, I'd say she had some responsibility for her actions, that she was willing, therefore bore some of the blame. Ask me now, and I say she was indeed a victim and was coerced with lies, deceit and a total mishandling of scripture to enduce her into these acts.
I considered this woman to be one of my closest friends in-rez and can honestly say I still remember the times we were together with a ton of love in my heart.
Shaz - from what I recall - when RP got caught with his pants down in-rez - he was made an example of and booted out.
A few months later, an ordained 1st Corps guy who was running part of CA showed up at Emporia when VP was there. I thought he was just there for a visit. At our Corps meeting that night, VP announced to the WHOLE Corps that this Rev. had cheated on his wife and had been removed from his responsibility. Told us how awful it was for that Rev. to do such a horrible thing - breaking his commitment and all....
Think about it, VP made examples of people who were doing the same stuff he was doing! That way, if and when anything came up about adultery, we would surely believe that VP thought it was wrong - I mean, he punished the guys who got caught doing it! He could NEVER do that!
How naive was I? (that's a rhetorical question, please don't answer!)
For those who were around during the "loyalty letter" days, did you already know that Martindale was "off"? If so, was the letter just the straw that broke the camel's back? Before the letter came out, did you think he was going to change, improve? Leave? From the testimony of those who lived through it, the letter doesn't seem to be a bolt out of the blue, or an isolated bit of ungodliness, but the culmination of much crap.
Oak, back in 87 (before the loyalty oath), at least half the corps I talked to knew ole craiggers was "off", even then. They would only admit it in one on one conversations with me and in hushed tones.
The ones that thought martindumb was right were the ones getting a salary and the ones who were "close" to getting a salary. I'm afraid that many saw things through their "federal reserve note" tainted glasses.
I also believe that when a lot of folks started walking away, there were others who stuck around simply because they figured they would "really" move up the pecking order once the dust settled and they were still "standing".
One good thing that came out of ....ferbrains demanding his loyalty oath is that people had the opprotunity to hold on to their own convictions and make a statement. They had the opprotunity to "make the word their own" by walking away flipping him the bird as they did it. The spit suckers remained.
quote: For those who were around during the "loyalty letter" days, did you already know that Martindale was "off"? If so, was the letter just the straw that broke the camel's back? Before the letter came out, did you think he was going to change, improve? Leave? From the testimony of those who lived through it, the letter doesn't seem to be a bolt out of the blue, or an isolated bit of ungodliness, but the culmination of much crap.
Oakspear, I'll give you my take on it. For folks like VF, who were following and standing with Geer, the letter was bad news because it smoked them out. They already were thinking the worst of Craig for years, didn't think he would change under any circumstances, didn't want to give him any more chances; so it was the end for those folks.
Others, ordinary Joe Believer twiggies, who followed folks like VF and who knew virtually nothing about the personal lifestyles of the BOT, would have gone either way. They followed folks like VF, and had folks like VF stood with LCM, the ordinary Joe Believer twiggies would have hung around as well. As I think back what confirms this is the folks (limb coordinators) who stood with LCM, didn't have the mass exodus in their states like in mine.
What the Hay stated in a previous post that some of these folks, who previously stood with VF and others and left when VF and others left, were coming back to TWI -- along with the new folks who were recruited. However, in my judgment there was only a period of about 5 years in there (1989-1994) where things were still tolerable in the sense that the unabashed legalism hadn't yet set in. PFAL and WOW were still around as well.
quote:You also spoke about how, had you known, you would have brought the accusations to Don W. and expected that you would have received an honest explanation. Do you not know that Don also was involved in adultery? And after reading my story above, do you still think that Don wouldn't have whitewashed the whole thing to you?
Shazdancer,
This is off topic but I thought I'd respond. Sorry to hear about your situation, but it sounds like Don was only communicating info. that was already "decreed", and he couldn't do much about it.
Don was a personal and family friend, and all the dealings I and my family ever had with him were honest and above reproach. It's extremely disturbing to hear that he also had problems with adultery; however, I haven't reason to believe he would lie to me -- unless one believes that a person who engages in adultery always must lie about everything else. So no, I don't think Don would have whitewashed anything. Also, giving folks the benefit of the doubt means you're willing to have them prove themselves to you; Don proved to be a family friend in my case, so I have no reason to think evil.
boy, oldies are your eyes closed or what? Well if it makes you feel better to look through your rose colored glasses and see the good in twi then that is your problem.
The only thing that bothers me about it is that you won't see it and basically call the very people that are trying to heal from it all and call them liars.
And let me say, if twi was so wonderful why are you not there? Some people that I know need twi and the control to even survive the world as they can not take care of themselves.
Maybe its time for you to take a look at going back?
It was a long time ago. I only wrote it so that you could start to understand that things were pretty heartless at the BOT level, from very early on. Including Don.
But I'm sure he was a real nice guy... who didn't have the male parts to ask his dad to talk to me.
Oldies, I have some particularly nasty memories of personal involvment with Don and his sordid, adulterous liasons. And no, I'm not gonna tell you about it. It involves other people, and it's their story to tell if they choose to, or not.
INMO, Don was a total wimp, in these particular situations, who didn't "do the right thing," when he had the chance. I really doubt he would've acted any differently in any other circumstance. He didn't have it in him, IMO.
Oakspear, I'll give you my take on it. For folks like VF, who were following and standing with Geer, the letter was bad news because it smoked them out. They already were thinking the worst of Craig for years, didn't think he would change under any circumstances, didn't want to give him any more chances; so it was the end for those folks.
OM,
you said something very profound...
Those who you say, thought "the worst" of lcm...
As it turns out, they were right.
You also said,
_____________________________________________
Don was a personal and family friend, and all the dealings I and my family ever had with him were honest and above reproach. It's extremely disturbing to hear that he also had problems with adultery; however, I haven't reason to believe he would lie to me -- unless one believes that a person who engages in adultery always must lie about everything else. So no, I don't think Don would have whitewashed anything. Also, giving folks the benefit of the doubt means you're willing to have them prove themselves to you; Don proved to be a family friend in my case, so I have no reason to think evil.
________________________________________________
OM,
You and your family may have been an exception on how the bot/bod (including dw) ruled.
By what the twi "leadership" did and did not do... IMO, they have demonstrated that these are NOT people of honor.
quote:But I'm sure he was a real nice guy... who didn't have the male parts to ask his dad to talk to me.
Shaz
Shaz,
I think Don would have went to bat for you if he could; maybe he knew his talking to his Dad would do no good, so why bother? I don't know. I personally was let down by Craig and Dr. Wierwille myself; I just got over it and didn't hold any grudges.
quote:INMO, Don was a total wimp, in these particular situations, who didn't "do the right thing," when he had the chance. I really doubt he would've acted any differently in any other circumstance. He didn't have it in him, IMO.
Ex10, aside from the adultery issue, how do you know he didn't do the right thing in his circumstance? Do you know what went on behind closed doors? What decisions he tried to have implemented? What the discussions were? I suppose the only thing that would have satisfied some folks was for him to resign; its been said here before. Some people are just out for blood. But personally, I would have rather had a guy like Don there and give what influence he could.
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alfakat
in other words, a perfect twi leader: did not let the bible get in the way of what he lusted after. I think I will skip the "charisma" and settle for integrity instead. As to "few" leaders or no, I am sure you cannot speak for a fraction of twi "leaders"--I was one and you don't know me from jacksheist. Now multiply me times a couple hundred and you have NO idea whether it was few or many. It is not a disgrace to say you don't know when you don't, UH.....
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shazdancer
Dear UncleHairy,
Whether VPW taught his leaders his sexual practices, or simply included some who already were adulterers, the result's the same. He didn't fire RP when it became known that he was a loose cannon, did he?
Dear Oldies,
You said...
SOME TWI women might have SOME pull with their own husbands, but that should not be equated with having pull with TWI leadership. When my 1st hubby decided to drink at ROA '80, we were both promptly fired from Staff and told to relocate to AZ. This "assignment" came from VP himself, who spoke only to my husband, while hubby was drunk. The next day, I asked to talk to VPW about it. I was stopped by Don W., and told that "Dad" had decreed it, so I would be blessed if I did it. It didn't even phase him when I said with tears that my parents would be separated from their first grandchild by such a move.I got HIM into TWI. I never had a drunk day in my life. Women, power? Puh-leez!
And BTW, just so you understand how "spiritual" that decision was, it bombed. We were told we were going to AZ to be close to the new LC, and introductions were made at the Rock. Well, once we got there, the LC quickly blew us off, then didn't last 6 months there himself. There was no contact from the BOT. I was abandoned with a drinking husband and a baby. The "Corps household" was a sham.
You also spoke about how, had you known, you would have brought the accusations to Don W. and expected that you would have received an honest explanation. Do you not know that Don also was involved in adultery? And after reading my story above, do you still think that Don wouldn't have whitewashed the whole thing to you?
You were scammed, Oldies. We all were.
Shaz
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Tom Strange
True that, Shaz. True that.
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excathedra
yup
another trusted trustee bites the dust.....
love you shaz for telling it like it was
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Hope R.
I'm jumping into this late in the discussion - last time I looked it was about Craig's letter from 1989...
:D-->
Catcup speaks the truth about RP. Let me tell you the same tale from how I saw it.
I was in Way Prod in residence. So was RP. He was the head of the Sickth Corpse Way Prod dept. He had his own office in Kenyon - backstage on the tip-top floor - which was more like a 2 room suite. There were several rooms on the 2nd floor - probably old music classrooms, where I would go to write and to get away from the crowd. There was always a pot of coffee back there, too - so I took advantage of it often.
One night, I wrote a song that I really believed was inspired, I was very happy with it. I wanted to share it with someone. It was really late- maybe 1 or 2 a.m. (there was no curfew back then). I had seen RP and a single Corps woman, DS, heading up to R's office earlier that night. They told me that they were working on some lyrics that R. was stuck on and she was good with words. I believed them - why shouldn't I?
Anyway, after I wrote the song, I went upstairs to see if they were still around to play it for them and.... oops! No, they weren't nekkid or anything - but they were in a bit of a compromising position - she was giving him a backrub, he was shirtless. No, I didn't say anything - I was in denial - there had to be a reasonable explanation for it, after all he was married! And it was only a back rub...
Now, Uncle Hairy - I only knew RP from Way Prod. I didn't know him or his reputation when I was in-rez. Why should I? I was never in his area. I'm sure he did nice things for people - so did VP.
As far as the other woman that Cat was talking about - I will also say that she was taken advantage of by several married men. I didn't know about it until our last year in-rez was almost over with, and didn't know about her encounters with VP until after we graduated. Was she complicit? That's a really hard thing for me to judge, knowing what I know now. Hindsight is always 20/20 as the saying goes. If you asked me this a few years ago, I'd say she had some responsibility for her actions, that she was willing, therefore bore some of the blame. Ask me now, and I say she was indeed a victim and was coerced with lies, deceit and a total mishandling of scripture to enduce her into these acts.
I considered this woman to be one of my closest friends in-rez and can honestly say I still remember the times we were together with a ton of love in my heart.
Shaz - from what I recall - when RP got caught with his pants down in-rez - he was made an example of and booted out.
A few months later, an ordained 1st Corps guy who was running part of CA showed up at Emporia when VP was there. I thought he was just there for a visit. At our Corps meeting that night, VP announced to the WHOLE Corps that this Rev. had cheated on his wife and had been removed from his responsibility. Told us how awful it was for that Rev. to do such a horrible thing - breaking his commitment and all....
Think about it, VP made examples of people who were doing the same stuff he was doing! That way, if and when anything came up about adultery, we would surely believe that VP thought it was wrong - I mean, he punished the guys who got caught doing it! He could NEVER do that!
How naive was I? (that's a rhetorical question, please don't answer!)
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WordWolf
Hope,
It's still about Craig's loy-alty letter.
We're going into intent and results and so on.
One poster here seems to think that it was appropriate for lcm to draw the
line in the sand, saying twi was a corporate entity that was entitled to demand
loyalty to it's chief executive officer. Others seem to say that the motives
for such a demand were flawed, the demand was ungodly, and the results
decimated the organization's effectiveness to do anything except micromanage.
Me, I think the evidence bears out the second point of view in exacting detail
and by a mountain of evidence, horror stories, personal testomonies, etc.
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Oakspear
Can I redirect?
Thanks
:D-->
For those who were around during the "loyalty letter" days, did you already know that Martindale was "off"? If so, was the letter just the straw that broke the camel's back? Before the letter came out, did you think he was going to change, improve? Leave? From the testimony of those who lived through it, the letter doesn't seem to be a bolt out of the blue, or an isolated bit of ungodliness, but the culmination of much crap.
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alfakat
Hope--that "guy" rev was 2nd kork...all the first kork were in their r and r year our first year in rez, remember...
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GrouchoMarxJr
Oak, back in 87 (before the loyalty oath), at least half the corps I talked to knew ole craiggers was "off", even then. They would only admit it in one on one conversations with me and in hushed tones.
The ones that thought martindumb was right were the ones getting a salary and the ones who were "close" to getting a salary. I'm afraid that many saw things through their "federal reserve note" tainted glasses.
I also believe that when a lot of folks started walking away, there were others who stuck around simply because they figured they would "really" move up the pecking order once the dust settled and they were still "standing".
One good thing that came out of ....ferbrains demanding his loyalty oath is that people had the opprotunity to hold on to their own convictions and make a statement. They had the opprotunity to "make the word their own" by walking away flipping him the bird as they did it. The spit suckers remained.
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WordWolf
Good question, Oakspear.
Speaking for myself.....
The impression I was getting second-hand was that there were some problems at the bot
level-specifically with lcm. Since I was naive enough to credit them with every
positive motivation, I actually told someone the higher-ups will settle this amongst
themselves. I said it and I was confident that lcm would come around.
(I already said I was naive.)
One of the people I said would talk to lcm and make sense would be vf.
The next news I got on the subject was the letter. (vf is fired, signed lcm.)
So much for making sense.
I reviewed the letter itself, and concluded the letter was flawed in doctrine.
Being the kind of guy that likes to see things for himself, I attended the '89 ROA.
I said "If there's a turnaround, it will be announced here. If there isn't, this is my
last chance to hit the bookstore." (I didn't know how much was available in
bookstores outside of twi. Naive.) I spoke to people from all over the country,
listened as leaders, spokesmen and self-appointed thought police spoke and watched my
movements, I was threatened with physical violence for asking questions, (which was
a more revealing answer than I got otherwise), and I noted error after error from the
mouths of leaders at every level. Comments from other people attending for the
last time included words like "dismal". That was as much information as I really
needed.
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oldiesman
Oakspear, I'll give you my take on it. For folks like VF, who were following and standing with Geer, the letter was bad news because it smoked them out. They already were thinking the worst of Craig for years, didn't think he would change under any circumstances, didn't want to give him any more chances; so it was the end for those folks.
Others, ordinary Joe Believer twiggies, who followed folks like VF and who knew virtually nothing about the personal lifestyles of the BOT, would have gone either way. They followed folks like VF, and had folks like VF stood with LCM, the ordinary Joe Believer twiggies would have hung around as well. As I think back what confirms this is the folks (limb coordinators) who stood with LCM, didn't have the mass exodus in their states like in mine.
What the Hay stated in a previous post that some of these folks, who previously stood with VF and others and left when VF and others left, were coming back to TWI -- along with the new folks who were recruited. However, in my judgment there was only a period of about 5 years in there (1989-1994) where things were still tolerable in the sense that the unabashed legalism hadn't yet set in. PFAL and WOW were still around as well.
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excathedra
craig or chris
cringe !!!!!
what will it be ? the ....ing of the patriarch or the loyboyalty !!!! ohmy
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oldiesman
Shazdancer,
This is off topic but I thought I'd respond. Sorry to hear about your situation, but it sounds like Don was only communicating info. that was already "decreed", and he couldn't do much about it.
Don was a personal and family friend, and all the dealings I and my family ever had with him were honest and above reproach. It's extremely disturbing to hear that he also had problems with adultery; however, I haven't reason to believe he would lie to me -- unless one believes that a person who engages in adultery always must lie about everything else. So no, I don't think Don would have whitewashed anything. Also, giving folks the benefit of the doubt means you're willing to have them prove themselves to you; Don proved to be a family friend in my case, so I have no reason to think evil.
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excathedra
what does thinking evil mean ?
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oldiesman
Thinking he would whitewash anything.
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excathedra
oh. thanks.
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vickles
boy, oldies are your eyes closed or what? Well if it makes you feel better to look through your rose colored glasses and see the good in twi then that is your problem.
The only thing that bothers me about it is that you won't see it and basically call the very people that are trying to heal from it all and call them liars.
And let me say, if twi was so wonderful why are you not there? Some people that I know need twi and the control to even survive the world as they can not take care of themselves.
Maybe its time for you to take a look at going back?
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Tom Strange
Oh Vickles... leave poor Oldies Man alone... can't you see he's been brainwashed? he was in a cult you know...
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shazdancer
Oldies,
It was a long time ago. I only wrote it so that you could start to understand that things were pretty heartless at the BOT level, from very early on. Including Don.
But I'm sure he was a real nice guy... who didn't have the male parts to ask his dad to talk to me.
Shaz
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ex10
Good grief.
Oldies, I have some particularly nasty memories of personal involvment with Don and his sordid, adulterous liasons. And no, I'm not gonna tell you about it. It involves other people, and it's their story to tell if they choose to, or not.
INMO, Don was a total wimp, in these particular situations, who didn't "do the right thing," when he had the chance. I really doubt he would've acted any differently in any other circumstance. He didn't have it in him, IMO.
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Zshot
OM,
you said something very profound...
Those who you say, thought "the worst" of lcm...
As it turns out, they were right.
You also said,
_____________________________________________
Don was a personal and family friend, and all the dealings I and my family ever had with him were honest and above reproach. It's extremely disturbing to hear that he also had problems with adultery; however, I haven't reason to believe he would lie to me -- unless one believes that a person who engages in adultery always must lie about everything else. So no, I don't think Don would have whitewashed anything. Also, giving folks the benefit of the doubt means you're willing to have them prove themselves to you; Don proved to be a family friend in my case, so I have no reason to think evil.
________________________________________________
OM,
You and your family may have been an exception on how the bot/bod (including dw) ruled.
By what the twi "leadership" did and did not do... IMO, they have demonstrated that these are NOT people of honor.
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excathedra
it's always easier to care about someone you know personally especially if they have helped you
ya know ?
for a long time that was kind of the -- i don't know -- bait -- for me
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oldiesman
Shaz,
I think Don would have went to bat for you if he could; maybe he knew his talking to his Dad would do no good, so why bother? I don't know. I personally was let down by Craig and Dr. Wierwille myself; I just got over it and didn't hold any grudges.
Ex10, aside from the adultery issue, how do you know he didn't do the right thing in his circumstance? Do you know what went on behind closed doors? What decisions he tried to have implemented? What the discussions were? I suppose the only thing that would have satisfied some folks was for him to resign; its been said here before. Some people are just out for blood. But personally, I would have rather had a guy like Don there and give what influence he could.
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excathedra
i was personally let down by the doctor and craig also. i don't hold grudges and i'm not out for blood. but i don't mind speaking about what happened.
as far as having doctor don there, to me it makes absolutely no difference....
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