How do you know that LCM didn't address their concerns, for those who cared to address them directly to him? I was involved at the time and yes I stand by what I say. Lots of folks didn't care much about what LCM had to say at the time; I remember this time in TWI being very accusatory against LCM. Being in NY at the time, the limb coordinator at the time conVINCEd almost everyone in NY to abandon TWI. Did they address their concerns directly with LCM and Don Wierwille before leaving? NADA. At least not those I was exposed to in my area; they just left, with only one side of the story. So in that sense all Craig did was help people move onto something else if they were against TWI. ... not necessarily a bad thing.
I looked for the letter on GS but couldn't find it, if anyone has a link perhaps it can be posted here so folks may view its contents.
LIE! WE recieved the loyalty oath letter and we were not employees of twi....never....simply Joe corpes on the field...not even twig coordinators at the time.
There were NO concernes addressed oldies...NONE not a single solitary shred of an explanation...
ALL that it said was that he demanded a letter from us swearing loyalty to him...rather than the *man across the sea* one way or another....the one quote that I vividly remember was lcm saying in the letter...*and DON`t give him any loyalty to God crap* because that was the tearing point for my husband....he told me that our loyalty would always be to God first.... and refused to write a letter one way or another....
We recieved a letter shortly after the first ....stating that we were *salt that had llost it`s savor* we were *fit only to be thrown into the street and trodden under the feet of the beasts*...*worthless* among other choice epitahps by lcm...it was cruel.
all of our years of service and standing were nothing...we were useless to God and ministry.
As far as lc`s and leaders never telling why they left??? That is a lie as well...Our limb co. recieved a letter from the country co. as to why S. America was no longer standing with the way in the usa....our lc forwarded copies to the tc.~s....Howard A then called Lc and after screaming at him for a while then fired them...folks of long standing reputation in twi.
H.Q THEN tells alla the rest of the state in a letter that our much loved lc`s had made the *choice* to retire early and move....it was a lie....it was the first time I had seen hq out and out lie about a situation...very upsetting to know that our very spiritual lives were in the hands of someone who would a treat long standing leadesrso badly and b lie so ouragiously about what had occured.
Thats how it happened oldies, if anybody ANYBODY tried to tell the *other side of the story* they were shut up...sent away and lied about.... so nobody would listen.
That is why you never heard the *real* story* most of the time
Defend twi all you like....but don`t make up stories about the content of letters you never recieved or treatment that that you never endured...
quote:Oldies - yes, that letter was directed to Corps who were on WayPay - BUT ALL THE CORPS RECEIVED IT! Think he was trying to put a bit of pressure on everyone???
Hope, I didn't see that as being unreasonable considering the circumstances. But it's possible it could be overboard with simple Corps grads. I don't know but are you saying that even Corps grads were asked for a written response by April 5? I didn't get that part. But I saw what he was asking for was folks to stand with him, and for the employees not to be insubordinate. Here's one quote:
quote:God first, but you must decide with whom you want to work and fellowship.
That sounds reasonable; I see nothing wrong with him asking the Geerites, and all the other folks discontent with his leadership, to make a decision. There was much discontent and all he's asking for is folks to make a decision who you're going to stand with, since the committed Geerites' position was that the BOT were worshipping other gods.
It WAS an unreasonable request to make of folks ....no information...no exclamation...just chest beating by lcm ....simply a man in a ....ing contest....unfortunatly...he lost.
It WAS an unreasonable request to make of folks ....no information...no exclamation...just chest beating by lcm ....simply a man in a ....ing contest....unfortunatly...he lost.
Lcm used his power and authority to demand unswerving allegiance to him, right or wrong...and held the threat of the loss of our spirituality over our heads as punishment for non compliance.
He was as childish as any bully on a school playground...his letter was belligerant and mean...and when he didn`t get the desired results...he threw a temper tantrum and *messed us up* as best he could.
quote:ALL that it said was that he demanded a letter from us swearing loyalty to him...rather than the *man across the sea* one way or another....the one quote that I vividly remember was lcm saying in the letter...*and DON`t give him any loyalty to God crap* because that was the tearing point for my husband....he told me that our loyalty would always be to God first.... and refused to write a letter one way or another....
Rascal, I just read the letter once again, and I can't find anywhere he said "and don't give him any loyalty to God crap..." can you please point that out?
Here's what he said:
quote:God first, but you must decide with whom you want to work and fellowship. To stand with God means to do His Word and will. That includes walking with mutual love and respect and like-mindedness and one accord. Each of us must decide with whom we want to do that.
It's pretty obvious that the Geerites and others who weren't in accord with LCM (that's a nice way of putting it) were asked to make a decision. I don't have a problem with this.
Try to look at it another way. Why should folks, who have no problem standing with LCM at the time, hear and be with malcontents who think so low of LCM? It's not fair for them either. He was basically asking the folks who were thinking evil of him, to leave. Either that, or give him the benefit of the doubt in decision made.
Rascal, if you have a legitimate reason for leaving at that time...I can't argue with you. It's true, I don't have all the facts of every case. But it was all the folks (especially from NY) who left who never had any good reasons other than hearsay from someone who conVINCEd them to leave. Big whispering campaign going that went on.
It was my understanding that this was the era where Ralph and some of the others went to LCM and did confront him and did try to recalim the ministry. Some who did not actually go, were in support of Ralph and others. (Perhaps, I do not know, VF was among the supporters)
Anyone know? It has been so long, my time frame maybe off and if that is so I apologize.
Thats NOT the letter that we recieved oldies....that is not what it said to the corpes on the field...
I repeat...in our letter lcm said ...*and don`t give me any of that standing with God crap*
We weren`t employees...he couldn`t fire us...We weren`t tc`s so he couldn`t take our fellowship away....so he did the only thing he could...hurtled names at us and declaired us unspiritual....real mature.
Dott that happened two or three years earlier....We were told not only DON`T go hear what Ralph and John Lynn had to say ...but IF someone we knew went and heard what they said....we must have no contact with them because they would have become possessed ...and we would be at dire risk for contamination ourselves....
I am ashamed to say that we shunned some really good friends who went to that meeting.
quote:all of our years of service and standing were nothing...we were useless to God and ministry.
He was saying in the letter that basically, you weren't useless to God, but that if you wanted to stand with him you had to decide if you were standing with him or not.
Look at it this way. Let's say I'm the head of the Jehovah's Witnesses (or any other denomination), and there's a leader out on the field that's thinking and speaking evil against me, especially one that's on the payroll. He thinks I'm a jerk. As the leader of the Jehovah's, do I want the church followers to be subjected to a malcontent liek that? Someone who's not in one accord with me or doesn't like me or someone who thinks I'm a jerk?
Oldies we didn`t leave at the time...had no desire to.....never had any intention of leaving....we were simply declared *spiritual waste* by lcm.
We attended fellowships for several more years...but from then on...we were treated with suspicion...and at times badly because of our refusal to write the loyalty oath...
We took it on the chin....never critisized never complained....never questioned....just suffered our indignity in silence and tried to quietly participate in a local felllowship...
Like I said ...he couldn`t do anything to us but tell everyone that we were a *bump on the log* spiritually ....unwilling to do our duty to God and ministry...15 years of unflinching never wavering service to twi meant squat after that.
Oldies...that was NOT what he said...he said we were USELESS!!! period....he said it he DECLARED that we...we whom had served unselfishly....unquestioningly...loyal with every fiber of our being.... for 15 friggin years accepitng whatever assignement...suggessted....that we were salt that had lost it`s savor....USELESS..FIT ONLY TO BE CAST IN THE STREET and TRODDEN under the feet of BEASTS!!!!!!!
He didn`t differentiate between ministry and God...we were USELESS period.
I'm not speaking or judging you, but Rascal would it have been so terrible to write a letter to Craig saying you stand with him in the movement of the Word over the World? What's the big deal? It's a vote of confidence for moving the Word and your part in it. You're not worshipping the guy by doing that.
No Oldies THAT wouldn`t have been so terrible at all...but THAT wasn`t what he demanded...was it? not by a long shot
He DEMANDED a letter SWEARING an oath of LOYALTY to HIM!!!!
Think about it...NOT an oath to help move the word...NOTY an oath to protect the ministry...NOT an oath to serve God...but an oath of loyalty to him...LC martindale...loyalty to stand with him ...think about what that means....
I thank God that Mark had more integrity than that at the time than to cave into the pressure ....that he could clearly see what lcm was requiring.
That line...*and don`t give me any loyalty to God crap* said it all.
quote:The letter, as I read it, was the antethesis of 1 Cor 3 as he demmanded people to make a carnal choice between what *man* to follow.
I heard that over and over again at that time. I was carnal. It was a carnal choice. I remember speaking to VF about it myself a couple of months after the letter was distributed and he accused me to my face of being carnal, for choosing to stand with TWI at the time. Of course, his choice, to stand with Geer, was SPIRITUAL? His choice was presumably spiritual, yet he was doing the same thing I was doing, only with someone else.
quote:Of course, his choice, to stand with Geer, was SPIRITUAL?
Ultimately, yes. By refusing to choose between one man or another, Finnegan effectively chose to be fired. Once that was done, he could make the decision to pay attention to Geer (promote his newsletter and tapes, etc). However, there came a point when Finnegan rejected Geer's leadership, and now Finnegan's teaching, to the best of my knowledge, is markedly different from Geer's. This, to me, is evidence that the decision to "stand with Geer" was not necessarily carnal. Ultimately, it was not, because ultimately, the decision was NOT to stand with Geer. I'm sure there were times when it was, in fact, carnal ("I'd rather follow this man than that man.")
quote:No Oldies THAT wouldn`t have been so terrible at all...but THAT wasn`t what he demanded...was it?
Yes, it was.
Here's the quote from the letter:
quote:A line has to be drawn; so make up your mind whether you are going to stand with us as Staff moving God's Word or go the route that has been set in the last couple of years, which I believe has gone very sour. You do what you decide to do.
So he's asking for a vote of confidence and support to stand with him in the movement of God's Word.
It looks to me like all folks had to do was write him a short letter saying "we stand with and support you in the movement of God's word, as spoken in your letter" etc.
In the '89 letter LCM says he'll listen to anyone who has something specific to say from the bible.
Time and again, he blew people off who tried. His later description about being in a "fog" was part right.
Basically he was afraid, and filled with guilt and self-doubt. So he clammed up. For 3 years, he really didn't lead the Way ministry, he let it lead itself. His responses that I was aware of were thinly disguised put offs. If you weren't in the "inner circle" of the Way Nash or had some access to it, you really didn't know what was going on. But not much was going on. He didn't really ever put together a coherent response or plan from the whole POP piece. Frankly, it didn't have much substance to it anyway, but the impact of the events of 86 required a response and some work. Ignoring that seemed to me to indicate a strong denial of reality.
That's not to say that everyone who approached him or communicated with him in one way or another did it well or even had LCM's or the Way's best interests at heart. There were enough efforts to satisfy me that he had virtually shut down from any practical standpoint to coordinate the ongoing activities of the Way.
3 years is a long time. Life goes on. One of the things I think he failed to recognize was that during that period he cast a clear blanket of doubt over his ability to be the acting president of the Way.
Even at that point, it doesn't make him a bad man because he couldn't it would just mean he needed help, help he says he was open to but for whatever reasons never got through to him. It also pointed out how the entire leadership structure of the Way was wanting. As we see he started in 1989 to "step back up" to the plate but his position allowed him to do so without any accountability for his actions. He was "the man of God". The fact that he'd been mentally mailing in his job for 3 years was swept under the carpet. IMO, no one in their right mind could put much trust in him.
I must weigh in. I was Way clergy on the field and was running a Twig. That was all. I had never been on the payroll, and I concur with what Rascal has reported, to the "T".
I was told that I had to make a choice between LCM and the man across the sea. I was told that I had to respond by a certain date, and if I did not, I would be DFAC'd, and of course so would my wife, a 7th Corps grad.
I agonized over my response. I was so mad at being told that I had to choose between two men, that I decided to not respond at all. I talked to friends after that who had written Word filled explanations to LCM as to why they chose to stand with God and Jesus Christ and not a man, but had only been DFAC'd in a rude manner anyway. So, chose not to say; "I refuse to stand with you, but rather to let them kick me out if necessary, for I had never "copped out" on an assignment before. Plus, I didn't want to say anything disrespectful to the Lord's Annointed, ala King David in reference to King Solomon. For even though Craig was way off the ball, I felt that it would be off the Word for me to rail on him, and that if I wrote him, I would have ended up doing just that. So, I gave it a "by" and let come what may.
And then, after the deadline passed, Earl Burton and I got our "Mr. Burton" and "Mr.Lingo" letters.
And those letters were so low and cheap shottish it was amazing. Do you remember how we would get a letter addressed to us in the Corps when we were still in good standing?
It would be addressed to, let's pick an abritrary Rev. Corps bro and his wife. It would say on the envelope:
Reverend Mr. and Mrs. John Butler
Then on the inside, the letter would start out with:
To: Rev. John Butler
From: Rev. L. Craig Martindale
Date: 5/8/82
Re: Corps assignments
Then the letter would open up with a salutation, like:
Dear John,
God bless you in the wonderful name of Jesus Christ, our returning lord and Savior. I wanted to talk to you about Corps assignments, and couldn't figure out what you meant when you said blah blah blah..If you want to John, we could do blah blah blah...
And so the letter would go..
But, when Earl and I got our "Yer outa here letter", it went more like this: On the envelope
Mr. and Mrs. Jonny Lingo
At the opening of he letter:
To: Mr. Jonny Lingo
From: Rev L.Craig Martindale
Date: 0/0/0
Re: Lack of response blah balah blah
Dear Mr. Lingo,
I asked you to respond blah blah...And Mr. Lingo, I have decided to DFAC you Mr. Lingo, and Mr Lingo, you are the salt that has lost it's savor and blah blah...Mr. Lingo blah blah blah...
I mean he must have called me "Mister" more times in one letter than I had been called in a year! It was so absurd. I never cared about being called "Reverend", but the contrast was so childish that I was amazed. It was like he really enjoyed his "defrocking" thing by using the word "Mister" like I was some piece of $hit that really hadn't spent fifteen years of his youthful life moving all over the damned country at my own expense and going through Corps et al, and saloming him along the way..
And on the same day that I got my letter, Earl called me up and said cheerfully as Earl always is cheeful; "Hi there Mr Lingo! Did you get your letter from Mr Martindale Mr Lingo? And I said why Mr Burton, so nice of you to call! And how are you Mr Burton? Feeling good today Mr Burton....?
Yeah, it was weird, and the letter went out all of us Oldieman, not just staffers on the payroll.
I remember reading VF's letter in reply to lcm--not one thing in it about his decision to "stand with" cg. I am not aware of VF ever publicly declaring himself "for" cg. Your understanding of events seems a tad skewed, om. Guess you ended up happy with "choosing" lcm, eh??? I also received the letter rascal did--it came some number of months after the salaried staff and corps received -- perhaps 2, maybe 3. At this point, lcm had received mostly unfavorable replys so he was a bit more "blunt" in the letter to the rest of us "volunteer" kork grads. So perhaps you now know the rest of the story, om.....
quote:Ultimately, yes. By refusing to choose between one man or another, Finnegan effectively chose to be fired.
Raf, I beg to differ; he was already in Geer's camp for months before the letter. When he received the letter, he wrote his own letter to all the leadership, including all the twig coordinators, badmouthing Craig and the BOT. He tried and succeeded in turning practically the whole state against TWI at the time. Those who chose to contact the BOT at the time, and get their side of the story, were given the other side. But VF was already in Geer's camp. Why do you think he was sending ABS to Gartmore? When I personally spoke to him a couple of months after the March letter, he told me that I was carnal; and the BOT were "worshipping other gods". What did all that mean? What was he talking about? There were no explanations, just that we were carnal and the bot worshipping other gods. Gee what a spiritual guy.
Alfakat,
Naturally he's not going to reveal that he stand with Geer...gee that would be a carnal thing, wouldn't it? Lest VF be thought of as carnal....he stand with G-O-D.
That also describes the letter I got, JL--cept I never was ordained by twi, so there was not the obvious disrespectful krap he flung at you in that light. But my letter matched yours in every other regard. My reply to his letter at the time was something on the order of "I have never been asked this type of question during my whole time involved in either the corps or in twi--why, biblically, should I at this late date, answer it now??" I received NO personal reply, just the same basic rant JL got... I guess I was already somewhat removed before that but that definitely slammed the door....
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oldiesman
Insurgent,
How do you know that LCM didn't address their concerns, for those who cared to address them directly to him? I was involved at the time and yes I stand by what I say. Lots of folks didn't care much about what LCM had to say at the time; I remember this time in TWI being very accusatory against LCM. Being in NY at the time, the limb coordinator at the time conVINCEd almost everyone in NY to abandon TWI. Did they address their concerns directly with LCM and Don Wierwille before leaving? NADA. At least not those I was exposed to in my area; they just left, with only one side of the story. So in that sense all Craig did was help people move onto something else if they were against TWI. ... not necessarily a bad thing.
I looked for the letter on GS but couldn't find it, if anyone has a link perhaps it can be posted here so folks may view its contents.
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rascal
That is a lie oldies....an out and out big fat
LIE! WE recieved the loyalty oath letter and we were not employees of twi....never....simply Joe corpes on the field...not even twig coordinators at the time.
There were NO concernes addressed oldies...NONE not a single solitary shred of an explanation...
ALL that it said was that he demanded a letter from us swearing loyalty to him...rather than the *man across the sea* one way or another....the one quote that I vividly remember was lcm saying in the letter...*and DON`t give him any loyalty to God crap* because that was the tearing point for my husband....he told me that our loyalty would always be to God first.... and refused to write a letter one way or another....
We recieved a letter shortly after the first ....stating that we were *salt that had llost it`s savor* we were *fit only to be thrown into the street and trodden under the feet of the beasts*...*worthless* among other choice epitahps by lcm...it was cruel.
all of our years of service and standing were nothing...we were useless to God and ministry.
As far as lc`s and leaders never telling why they left??? That is a lie as well...Our limb co. recieved a letter from the country co. as to why S. America was no longer standing with the way in the usa....our lc forwarded copies to the tc.~s....Howard A then called Lc and after screaming at him for a while then fired them...folks of long standing reputation in twi.
H.Q THEN tells alla the rest of the state in a letter that our much loved lc`s had made the *choice* to retire early and move....it was a lie....it was the first time I had seen hq out and out lie about a situation...very upsetting to know that our very spiritual lives were in the hands of someone who would a treat long standing leadesrso badly and b lie so ouragiously about what had occured.
Thats how it happened oldies, if anybody ANYBODY tried to tell the *other side of the story* they were shut up...sent away and lied about.... so nobody would listen.
That is why you never heard the *real* story* most of the time
Defend twi all you like....but don`t make up stories about the content of letters you never recieved or treatment that that you never endured...
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oldiesman
Taken from another thread, Hope R. said:
Hope, I didn't see that as being unreasonable considering the circumstances. But it's possible it could be overboard with simple Corps grads. I don't know but are you saying that even Corps grads were asked for a written response by April 5? I didn't get that part. But I saw what he was asking for was folks to stand with him, and for the employees not to be insubordinate. Here's one quote:
That sounds reasonable; I see nothing wrong with him asking the Geerites, and all the other folks discontent with his leadership, to make a decision. There was much discontent and all he's asking for is folks to make a decision who you're going to stand with, since the committed Geerites' position was that the BOT were worshipping other gods.
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rascal
It WAS an unreasonable request to make of folks ....no information...no exclamation...just chest beating by lcm ....simply a man in a ....ing contest....unfortunatly...he lost.
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rascal
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oldiesman
Rascal, I just read the letter once again, and I can't find anywhere he said "and don't give him any loyalty to God crap..." can you please point that out?
Here's what he said:
It's pretty obvious that the Geerites and others who weren't in accord with LCM (that's a nice way of putting it) were asked to make a decision. I don't have a problem with this.
Try to look at it another way. Why should folks, who have no problem standing with LCM at the time, hear and be with malcontents who think so low of LCM? It's not fair for them either. He was basically asking the folks who were thinking evil of him, to leave. Either that, or give him the benefit of the doubt in decision made.
Rascal, if you have a legitimate reason for leaving at that time...I can't argue with you. It's true, I don't have all the facts of every case. But it was all the folks (especially from NY) who left who never had any good reasons other than hearsay from someone who conVINCEd them to leave. Big whispering campaign going that went on.
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Dot Matrix
It was my understanding that this was the era where Ralph and some of the others went to LCM and did confront him and did try to recalim the ministry. Some who did not actually go, were in support of Ralph and others. (Perhaps, I do not know, VF was among the supporters)
Anyone know? It has been so long, my time frame maybe off and if that is so I apologize.
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rascal
Thats NOT the letter that we recieved oldies....that is not what it said to the corpes on the field...
I repeat...in our letter lcm said ...*and don`t give me any of that standing with God crap*
We weren`t employees...he couldn`t fire us...We weren`t tc`s so he couldn`t take our fellowship away....so he did the only thing he could...hurtled names at us and declaired us unspiritual....real mature.
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rascal
Dott that happened two or three years earlier....We were told not only DON`T go hear what Ralph and John Lynn had to say ...but IF someone we knew went and heard what they said....we must have no contact with them because they would have become possessed ...and we would be at dire risk for contamination ourselves....
I am ashamed to say that we shunned some really good friends who went to that meeting.
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oldiesman
He was saying in the letter that basically, you weren't useless to God, but that if you wanted to stand with him you had to decide if you were standing with him or not.
Look at it this way. Let's say I'm the head of the Jehovah's Witnesses (or any other denomination), and there's a leader out on the field that's thinking and speaking evil against me, especially one that's on the payroll. He thinks I'm a jerk. As the leader of the Jehovah's, do I want the church followers to be subjected to a malcontent liek that? Someone who's not in one accord with me or doesn't like me or someone who thinks I'm a jerk?
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rascal
Oldies we didn`t leave at the time...had no desire to.....never had any intention of leaving....we were simply declared *spiritual waste* by lcm.
We attended fellowships for several more years...but from then on...we were treated with suspicion...and at times badly because of our refusal to write the loyalty oath...
We took it on the chin....never critisized never complained....never questioned....just suffered our indignity in silence and tried to quietly participate in a local felllowship...
Like I said ...he couldn`t do anything to us but tell everyone that we were a *bump on the log* spiritually ....unwilling to do our duty to God and ministry...15 years of unflinching never wavering service to twi meant squat after that.
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rascal
Oldies...that was NOT what he said...he said we were USELESS!!! period....he said it he DECLARED that we...we whom had served unselfishly....unquestioningly...loyal with every fiber of our being.... for 15 friggin years accepitng whatever assignement...suggessted....that we were salt that had lost it`s savor....USELESS..FIT ONLY TO BE CAST IN THE STREET and TRODDEN under the feet of BEASTS!!!!!!!
He didn`t differentiate between ministry and God...we were USELESS period.
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oldiesman
I'm not speaking or judging you, but Rascal would it have been so terrible to write a letter to Craig saying you stand with him in the movement of the Word over the World? What's the big deal? It's a vote of confidence for moving the Word and your part in it. You're not worshipping the guy by doing that.
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rascal
Thing that kills me is that we never gave up...we never got bitter or negative....just tried to continue our spiritual duty.
However for the ptb...that wasn`t enough.... we didn`t play by the playground bully`s rules...we were gonna pay.
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rascal
No Oldies THAT wouldn`t have been so terrible at all...but THAT wasn`t what he demanded...was it? not by a long shot
He DEMANDED a letter SWEARING an oath of LOYALTY to HIM!!!!
Think about it...NOT an oath to help move the word...NOTY an oath to protect the ministry...NOT an oath to serve God...but an oath of loyalty to him...LC martindale...loyalty to stand with him ...think about what that means....
I thank God that Mark had more integrity than that at the time than to cave into the pressure ....that he could clearly see what lcm was requiring.
That line...*and don`t give me any loyalty to God crap* said it all.
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oldiesman
Taken from another thread, Goey said:
I heard that over and over again at that time. I was carnal. It was a carnal choice. I remember speaking to VF about it myself a couple of months after the letter was distributed and he accused me to my face of being carnal, for choosing to stand with TWI at the time. Of course, his choice, to stand with Geer, was SPIRITUAL? His choice was presumably spiritual, yet he was doing the same thing I was doing, only with someone else.
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Raf
Ultimately, yes. By refusing to choose between one man or another, Finnegan effectively chose to be fired. Once that was done, he could make the decision to pay attention to Geer (promote his newsletter and tapes, etc). However, there came a point when Finnegan rejected Geer's leadership, and now Finnegan's teaching, to the best of my knowledge, is markedly different from Geer's. This, to me, is evidence that the decision to "stand with Geer" was not necessarily carnal. Ultimately, it was not, because ultimately, the decision was NOT to stand with Geer. I'm sure there were times when it was, in fact, carnal ("I'd rather follow this man than that man.")
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rascal
Time has shown just exactly how much damage sworn *loyalty* to LCM has caused....
It was not a good or Godly thing....our loyalty to LCM placed before our loyalty to God had awfull consequences.
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oldiesman
Yes, it was.
Here's the quote from the letter:
So he's asking for a vote of confidence and support to stand with him in the movement of God's Word.
It looks to me like all folks had to do was write him a short letter saying "we stand with and support you in the movement of God's word, as spoken in your letter" etc.
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socks
In the '89 letter LCM says he'll listen to anyone who has something specific to say from the bible.
Time and again, he blew people off who tried. His later description about being in a "fog" was part right.
Basically he was afraid, and filled with guilt and self-doubt. So he clammed up. For 3 years, he really didn't lead the Way ministry, he let it lead itself. His responses that I was aware of were thinly disguised put offs. If you weren't in the "inner circle" of the Way Nash or had some access to it, you really didn't know what was going on. But not much was going on. He didn't really ever put together a coherent response or plan from the whole POP piece. Frankly, it didn't have much substance to it anyway, but the impact of the events of 86 required a response and some work. Ignoring that seemed to me to indicate a strong denial of reality.
That's not to say that everyone who approached him or communicated with him in one way or another did it well or even had LCM's or the Way's best interests at heart. There were enough efforts to satisfy me that he had virtually shut down from any practical standpoint to coordinate the ongoing activities of the Way.
3 years is a long time. Life goes on. One of the things I think he failed to recognize was that during that period he cast a clear blanket of doubt over his ability to be the acting president of the Way.
Even at that point, it doesn't make him a bad man because he couldn't it would just mean he needed help, help he says he was open to but for whatever reasons never got through to him. It also pointed out how the entire leadership structure of the Way was wanting. As we see he started in 1989 to "step back up" to the plate but his position allowed him to do so without any accountability for his actions. He was "the man of God". The fact that he'd been mentally mailing in his job for 3 years was swept under the carpet. IMO, no one in their right mind could put much trust in him.
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J0nny Ling0
I must weigh in. I was Way clergy on the field and was running a Twig. That was all. I had never been on the payroll, and I concur with what Rascal has reported, to the "T".
I was told that I had to make a choice between LCM and the man across the sea. I was told that I had to respond by a certain date, and if I did not, I would be DFAC'd, and of course so would my wife, a 7th Corps grad.
I agonized over my response. I was so mad at being told that I had to choose between two men, that I decided to not respond at all. I talked to friends after that who had written Word filled explanations to LCM as to why they chose to stand with God and Jesus Christ and not a man, but had only been DFAC'd in a rude manner anyway. So, chose not to say; "I refuse to stand with you, but rather to let them kick me out if necessary, for I had never "copped out" on an assignment before. Plus, I didn't want to say anything disrespectful to the Lord's Annointed, ala King David in reference to King Solomon. For even though Craig was way off the ball, I felt that it would be off the Word for me to rail on him, and that if I wrote him, I would have ended up doing just that. So, I gave it a "by" and let come what may.
And then, after the deadline passed, Earl Burton and I got our "Mr. Burton" and "Mr.Lingo" letters.
And those letters were so low and cheap shottish it was amazing. Do you remember how we would get a letter addressed to us in the Corps when we were still in good standing?
It would be addressed to, let's pick an abritrary Rev. Corps bro and his wife. It would say on the envelope:
Reverend Mr. and Mrs. John Butler
Then on the inside, the letter would start out with:
To: Rev. John Butler
From: Rev. L. Craig Martindale
Date: 5/8/82
Re: Corps assignments
Then the letter would open up with a salutation, like:
Dear John,
God bless you in the wonderful name of Jesus Christ, our returning lord and Savior. I wanted to talk to you about Corps assignments, and couldn't figure out what you meant when you said blah blah blah..If you want to John, we could do blah blah blah...
And so the letter would go..
But, when Earl and I got our "Yer outa here letter", it went more like this: On the envelope
Mr. and Mrs. Jonny Lingo
At the opening of he letter:
To: Mr. Jonny Lingo
From: Rev L.Craig Martindale
Date: 0/0/0
Re: Lack of response blah balah blah
Dear Mr. Lingo,
I asked you to respond blah blah...And Mr. Lingo, I have decided to DFAC you Mr. Lingo, and Mr Lingo, you are the salt that has lost it's savor and blah blah...Mr. Lingo blah blah blah...
I mean he must have called me "Mister" more times in one letter than I had been called in a year! It was so absurd. I never cared about being called "Reverend", but the contrast was so childish that I was amazed. It was like he really enjoyed his "defrocking" thing by using the word "Mister" like I was some piece of $hit that really hadn't spent fifteen years of his youthful life moving all over the damned country at my own expense and going through Corps et al, and saloming him along the way..
And on the same day that I got my letter, Earl called me up and said cheerfully as Earl always is cheeful; "Hi there Mr Lingo! Did you get your letter from Mr Martindale Mr Lingo? And I said why Mr Burton, so nice of you to call! And how are you Mr Burton? Feeling good today Mr Burton....?
Yeah, it was weird, and the letter went out all of us Oldieman, not just staffers on the payroll.
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alfakat
I remember reading VF's letter in reply to lcm--not one thing in it about his decision to "stand with" cg. I am not aware of VF ever publicly declaring himself "for" cg. Your understanding of events seems a tad skewed, om. Guess you ended up happy with "choosing" lcm, eh??? I also received the letter rascal did--it came some number of months after the salaried staff and corps received -- perhaps 2, maybe 3. At this point, lcm had received mostly unfavorable replys so he was a bit more "blunt" in the letter to the rest of us "volunteer" kork grads. So perhaps you now know the rest of the story, om.....
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oldiesman
Raf, I beg to differ; he was already in Geer's camp for months before the letter. When he received the letter, he wrote his own letter to all the leadership, including all the twig coordinators, badmouthing Craig and the BOT. He tried and succeeded in turning practically the whole state against TWI at the time. Those who chose to contact the BOT at the time, and get their side of the story, were given the other side. But VF was already in Geer's camp. Why do you think he was sending ABS to Gartmore? When I personally spoke to him a couple of months after the March letter, he told me that I was carnal; and the BOT were "worshipping other gods". What did all that mean? What was he talking about? There were no explanations, just that we were carnal and the bot worshipping other gods. Gee what a spiritual guy.
Alfakat,
Naturally he's not going to reveal that he stand with Geer...gee that would be a carnal thing, wouldn't it? Lest VF be thought of as carnal....he stand with G-O-D.
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alfakat
That also describes the letter I got, JL--cept I never was ordained by twi, so there was not the obvious disrespectful krap he flung at you in that light. But my letter matched yours in every other regard. My reply to his letter at the time was something on the order of "I have never been asked this type of question during my whole time involved in either the corps or in twi--why, biblically, should I at this late date, answer it now??" I received NO personal reply, just the same basic rant JL got... I guess I was already somewhat removed before that but that definitely slammed the door....
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