Well, in fairness to you, it sounds like you didn't have much of a childhood.
Sheesh, 18 years (some very formative ones at that) is enough to screw with anybody's head for a good long while.
Maybe you just need a little more time and experience in the real world to lighten up a little bit.
I've found that people - with a few notable exceptions - are generally good-hearted, friendly, and as giving as they can be, just about the world over (anywhere I've been in it, anyway).
The only trouble comes when superstitious belief systems corrupt on otherwise healthy brain. Then all sorts of crap can happen. Genocide, inquisitions, wars, terrorism, you name it. Anything goes once people give their brains over to religion.
I had a hard time cultivating friends for a long time. We learned in twi to look for other people's weaknesses if they were not 'walking' on the word. Somehow, you have to get past that and look at people as they are. Human and all.
What helped for me was finding the right therapist and worked it out that way. There is nothing wrong with finding professional help if that is what you need. I did and am so glad I did. I happened to get an ex-nun that totally understood what I went through. So, just any therapist would not do but finding the right one that fits for you.
"I dont know if any of you out there are having a hard time at cultivating friendships like me. I know that I am making myself very vulnerable by posting this here but Im really tired of not having any friends, but I honestly dont know how to change."
I immediately thought of the prayer room here at this site. There are many of us here who go there daily to look for new requests to pray for, and seek deliverance for the petitioner.
Post your request there. There are some left here who do believe in God delivering thru prayer! If you want to change, it can be done. :)-->
By the way -- iron sharpens iron means just that. Confrontation can "sharpen" a person when other methods fail, but the trick is to know when to use your "iron" !! ;)-->
One of the things that TWI put in our heads is the idea that everything and everybody is either white or black, godly or devilish. If devilish, TWI wrote them off without a backward glance. (I guess it was just too much work to help someone, when there were other people to fleece, er, believers to love!)
I have found instead that most people try to do good most of the time. Most of us are just bound by our emotional needs. Knowing that makes most of the little foibles in people totally forgiveable, including my own. I try to appreciate others for their uniqueness -- if they were all like me, God help us all! :D--> I draw the line when something someone does harms another, but otherwise, to each his own.
Perhaps without compromising your own belief system or walk (however you may choose to call it) If you try and keep in the front of your mind that it is " your own" personal walk not that of your new found friend.
This way your new friend should she be Hindu, Buddhist , Jewish, Atheist, or Christian will feel safe in your presence.
We were so indoctrinated for so many years, we were all taught to allow ourselves to be controlled, and at the same time to be controlling of others.
Hows that for "Iron sharpeneth Iron" . So in our honest attempt to build character we were building character defects.
This kind of goes into the area of "boundaries".
It might be helpful to check out a few self help books from the library , or do as I do and take a whole stack into the cafe area of a Borders or Barnes and Noble and read away.
I would love to offer a title or two, but I will have to think about that and post again later.
Hi there MCarrol! I think you already know the answer:
quote:Him on the other hand, if he sees me doing something wrong, he will be quiet and be patient with me and hope (and hopefully pray) that I will see the truth. Many times I do.
and like the others have said, it's about allowing people to be human without feeling the need to correct them, or share with them their apparent "infirmities"...
it'll come to you, be patient with yourself... allow YOU to be human without condemnation and you'll find that you will more easily be able to allow others to be human without condemnation...
Whether someone is right or wrong, according to your measuring stick, doesn't really mean a whole lot in the greater scheme of life does it?
allowing others the freedom to have different beliefs and feelings than you do is one of the biggest steps in making and keeping real friends... they'll appreciate you for it and you'll appreciate them more as well...
I know this is easier said than done, it's life ya know? and it looks like you've got a good partner there to help you along with your walk...
you WILL make it, just be patient (with your husband, your friends and yourself as well) and keep growing...
when i first "got out" (love you igotout), i had a similar difficulty.... for ME the problem was ME. i don't know how to explain this. i've been thinking about it on and off all day
i think, once i started to relax a bit and love myself, it became easier to relax around others
most times in present day reality, i listen more than i talk. and i find people really like me because they LOVE to talk about themselves ;)--> ;)--> ;)--> i say uh huh uh huh.....
they think i'm smart ;)--> ;)--> ;)-->
but seriously most folks just want to be loved unconditionally, and understood, right ?
This is a great topic. I also find it very difficult to make friends beyond those whom I had twenty years ago. I am friendly with people, and have light friendships, but nothing deep, except for my husband, and my sister. My oldest non-family friend is someone with whom I haven't shared a cup of coffee in five years, but when we get on the phone together, it's like yesterday. But we don't get together, even on the phone, very often any more.
Part of the reason that I don't make friends easily is probably that I'm just so busy right now, with work, kids, and trying to get my husband alone every once in awhile. I often think that if I could take the time to join a book club, or be in Junior League, or something else where people actually spend time outside of work or family, that the potential would be there for friendships.
Also, leaving twi made me a more introspective, private person than I was before.
I think that the greasepotters have made some great comments on this thread. Lots of good ideas to help.
But McCarroll, you're certainly not alone. I'd be willing to bet that a lot of us have trust "issues."
Just like every other bit of baggage that we carried out of the way, we will keep those issues as long as we want to, and then we will just drop them off to the side, and keep on going, to freedom.
I think the problem is that you have a standard you expect is "right" or "good" for people. You probably believe this standard is God's will or "the word" or something. The result is if people don't do what you think they should, you judge that as a weakness or something wrong. So your only choices are to try to change them (by confrontation or reproof or teaching) or to be quiet and hope they "grow" or change on their own.
Either way you are judging them as not good enough because you have a standard you believe they should live up to.
Perhaps I'm not like most people, but I don't feel real friendly toward people who think I'm not good enough.
Funny, but I witnessed to someone. I was no longer in TWI and did not know where to direct her. So, I told her about CES.
The funny thing was, before she met me, she knew almost nothing about God. I asked her what kind of Bible she had and she responded "green".
Then, she goes to a Momentus class and hangs with CES for a couple of weeks. (less than 30 days)
She then turns on ME and tells me horrible stuff. She told me I needed to STAND even though TWI was over for me and called me a Bible coward.... She was so mean.
I told her she better shut the phock up, who the helI did she think she was speaking to?
then, I calmed down and asked her what happened to her?
She said nothing was wrong with her she was doing/providing, "iron sharpeneth iron"
This past year Joyce Meyer taught on that whole thing and it was different then the TWI concept of being "mean". I contacted Joyce's ministry to ask for that teaching but they did not know what sermon it was included in.
Raf, maybe you know or WW what the real meaning is.
Because to me, via TWI, that whole iron sharpeneth iron thing is a license to be rotten and intolerant of people and that is not what the fruits of the spirit are.
love;
joy;
peace;
patience;
kindness;
goodness;
faithfulness;
gentleness;
self-control.
So, therefore I believe we were taught the iron thing incorrectly. (being taught it was a grating against each other sounds caustic or acromonious.) If memory serves and it has been bad of late, Joyce spoke about it in the context of when two of you are excited about the Bible and share what you are seeing. It was not meant to pound each other. Like if I read a scripture and see it in a new wonderful light and I share it and that person happens to have seen something as well... IT is a cool thing. The perversion, of course, would be to make it into something "mean".
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on March 24, 2004 at 17:24.]
"I don’t know how to be compassionate. But then there is a double standard with me. When they start to confront me, I always come back with a rebuttal. But wasn’t that how we were taught in TWI?"
The GREATEST thing I learned since leaving TWI is that word of God is the "living word" it is alive and it can speak to you. (Forget that private interpretation stuff for a minute) Ask God to reach you and give you a heart of compassion and love, tell him to speak to you via the Bible and your environment. From your heart ask him to give you depth. And he will.
Via TWI, I used to think if I saw something wrong it became my responsibility to CORRECT it. Like that is what God expected of me.
One day, after begging God for some growth in that area I re-read the serenity prayer:
God grant me the serenity
To accept the things I cannot change;
Courage to change the things I can;
And wisdom to know the difference.
I realized, in The Way, I learned how to have the courage to change the things I can but I had NEVER had "the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change"
Because somehow in the Way we thought we could change everything and we felt responsible to DO it.
I asked God to show me how to have "the serenity to accept the things I cannot change"
And the wisdom to know the difference.
My husband will NEVER use a hamper as long as he has a floor. We can argue everyday or I can accept it and just pick up the dang clothes.
(It is part of the reason I hardly go on the Mike thread's anymore.... smile)
Making and having friends is not something that comes easy to many of us. I think that I was pulled into TWI because of the "ready made" group of friends that it provided. I don't think that I was the only one so motivated. I never had a close friend before TWI and my only close friends now are my family.
My wife, whose only involvement with TWI was the foundational class, is greatly bothered with her lack of friends. She's done lots of social stuff to try to find someone, but it's coming up on 2 years of efforts with no good results.
I'm pretty much resigned to not having close friends other than my wife and daughter. I do have business associates whose company I enjoy, but other than that and family, I'm pretty much a loner.
McCarol, people here have given some great advice.
For me, I realized:
1. I am not the judge of people, God is ultimately, therefore
2. Most people are nice - just chill out and live and let live; and
3. It is NOT our job to "fix" people.
Neither your nor I can fix anyone, nor can they fix you.
In TWI, we were basically taught that anyone outside of TWI was "the other." This is not true. We are all a part of humanity - God so Loved the world... Christ loved/loves each and every one of us and died for each and every one of us. We need to get off the high horses TWI put us on.
Also, don't give anyone advice unless they ask - I know being ex-TWI that can be hard to do! People don't ask for advice unless its someone they trust and respect.
I think the fact you've identified the problem is wonderful, God working on your heart to show you a problem and get you to the point you are willing to change.
Most of us struggled with what you share. Funny story, my corps sister was a waitress on her interim year and was put on probation by her boss...
Why?
She was reproving all of her customers. She honestly felt it was the right thing to do and thought she was doing God's will. Can you imagine, you had a rough day, you go to lunch and the waitress starts to confront you on areas of improvement?
We were "programmed" to be nutty.
Writing this, I now recall, I am guilty of the same thing. Oh my Gosh!
I was waitressing (so I could move the word full time and all). It was a Mexican place.
Anyway, I walked by this table and asked if they needed any more salsa. They said "no" and they had 3 bowls of it.
I then went and got the food for the table next to them.
The guy from the table with the three bowls called me over and said, "We need more salsa."
Instead of my getting it -- Oh mmmmyyyyy!
I argued with him. I pointed out that I had asked him if he needed any just two minutes ago. Now, he had to wait until I was finished with my current table. Then, I looked at the bowls - still having some salsa in them, and said, "you have enough to hold you."
And you know what? To me, I was just being honest and bold. Truth? I was being mean, critical and destructive. And I did not even SEE the difference....
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on March 22, 2004 at 11:08.]
I cultivated many aquaintences throughout my years with twi. The main reason was because I had interests outside of twig however very few of them could be called true friends.
I have found that it takes time and mutual interests to develop friendships and as someone involved witha cult, just finding something other than the bible to talk about can be quit challenging.
I would suggest not focusing so much on finding friends as finding yourself, who are you? What are your interests?
Do you skydive?
Do you press flowers? :)-->
Do you like to snipe hunt? -->
I'm involved with sunday school and the sustainable farming/rural preservation stuff out here and have found some folks with common interests from which to find new friends. Acceptance of who a person is, understanding that they are as an incomplete imperfect human as I am helps me overlook their glaring faults and gives me the right amount of humilty to be accepting and not judgmental.
You know in spite of the teaching to read verses in their context in TWI, we rarely were encouraged to do this. The scripture in Proverbs for example with "Iron sharpeneth iron". So why did we ever think that meant we had to be hard on everyone and treat people with a heavy hand, harsh and loud voice and stern contenance? It seems to suggest the opposite. Try reading these verses in their context with this in mind.
Prov 27:14-17
14 He that blesseth his friend with a loud voice, rising early in the morning, it shall be counted a curse to him.
15 A continual dropping in a very rainy day and a contentious woman are alike.
16 Whosoever hideth her hideth the wind, and the ointment of his right hand, which bewrayeth itself.
17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.
KJV
Prov 27:14-17
14 You might as well curse your friend as wake him up early in the morning with a loud greeting.
15 A nagging wife is like water going drip-drip-drip on a rainy day. 16 How can you keep her quiet? Have you ever tried to stop the wind or ever tried to hold a handful of oil?
17 People learn from one another, just as iron sharpens iron.
Here MCarrol. Try reading this instead of thinking about what you learned in TWI.
Prov 27:15-16; Prov 27:17
Miscellaneous maxims
Here, as before, Solomon laments the case of him that has a peevish passionate wife, that is continually chiding, and making herself and all about her uneasy.
1. It is a grievance that there is no avoiding, for it is like a continual dropping in a very rainy day. The contentions of a neighbour may be like a sharp shower, troublesome for the time, yet, while it lasts, one may take shelter; but the contentions of a wife are like a constant soaking rain, for which there is no remedy but patience See Prov 19:13.
2. It is a grievance that there is no concealing. A wise man would hide it if he could, for the sake both of his own and his wife's reputation, but he cannot, any more than he can conceal the noise of the wind when it blows or the smell of a strong perfume. Those that are froward and brawling will proclaim their own shame, even when their friends, in kindness to them, would cover it.
Proverbs 27:17
Miscellaneous maxims
This intimates both the pleasure and the advantage of conversation. One man is nobody; nor will poring upon a book in a corner accomplish a man as the reading and studying of men will. Wise and profitable discourse sharpens men's wits; and those that have ever so much knowledge may by conference have something added to them. It sharpens men's looks, and, by cheering the spirits, puts a briskness and liveliness into the countenance, and gives a man such an air as shows he is pleased himself and makes him pleasing to those about him. Good men's graces are sharpened by converse with those that are good, and bad men's lusts and passions are sharpened by converse with those that are bad, as iron is sharpened by its like, especially by the file. Men are filed, made smooth, and bright, and fit for business (who were rough, and dull, and inactive), by conversation. This is designed,
1. To recommend to us this expedient for sharpening ourselves, but with a caution to take heed whom we choose to converse with, because the influence upon us is so great either for the better or for the worse.
2. To direct us what we must have in our eye in conversation, namely to improve both others and ourselves, not to pass away time or banter one another, but to provoke one another to love and to good works and so to make one another wiser and better.
“I have often asked myself this question...not sure if any of you have.”
I certainly have.
“. . . I would hear "You have no friends when it comes to the Word", "No compromising..." and "Iron sharpeneth iron".
True, I think that what we think and say within our own ‘inner’ dialog is one thing. What we say to ourselves, in our thinking. It is perhaps yet another thing what we say out in public and to others.
Do you take the idea of "No compromising..." to mean that I can not allow myself to be within the room while someone else knowingly does compromise? Or that you yourself you will not allow any compromises, but you can still be aware of and ‘sharpening’ yourself when you travel the world and see others making compromises?
“My trust in others was shattered . . . “
Yes TWI had it’s problems. It was not perfect, nor was totally wrong either. Some people did see opportunities for ‘bettering’ themselves, they saw who to suck-up to for advancement. Often young and in-experienced people were put into positions of authority over others, and from all of the problems some leaders became very abusive. But that is / was a large group of people.
“ "iron sharpeneth iron" meant confronting your friends no matter how harshly you did it and growth would come out of it.”
And yet I thought it meant discussing the Word, and studying it with others who were like-minded.
The corporate body of people within TWI got focused on confronting each other. But that is forgetting the Love that is also ours.
“. . . I find it so difficult to cultivate friendships.”
Yes the failing of TWI, did leave it’s mark onto thousands. I am sorry. I certainly don’t feel entirely responsible for it, but rather I was there and I saw others taken advantage of.
G-d loves us. Jesus died for us.
“. . . I just zap them!”
Be gentle. Our father’s love is great, He is also willing to work in their lives. None of us are perfect, we are all walking on the path, He is still working in each of us.
“When I see weakness in their lives and I feel they are too wimpish, I speak up. I dont know how to be compasionate. “
I suppose that I have advantages over you here, in my life I have done things that have been fairly bad. I KNOW that way more compassion and forgiveness has been shown by Our Heavenly Father in forgiving and loving me, then would seem reasonable. I feel obligated to be compassionate toward others.
“I dont know if any of you out there are having a hard time at cultivating friendships like me. I know that I am making myself very vulnerable by posting this here. . . “
Yes, there are others in the same boat.
Feel free to private message me, or email me.
“Thanks for listening (ahem, reading) anyway.”
You are in the same boat as many of us. Don’t give up. Don’t release your beliefs, or relax your strandards.
I really want to thank the many of you who have responded to my post. Your many suggestions, comments and encouragement are greatly appreciated and are being considered as we speak.
Thank you for the verses posted for I will try to make them my own. Even the mere fact that I spoke outloud, or should I say, wrote in a public forum, the struggles that I deal with when it comes to criticizing and judging others, it has made me more aware of my lack of compassion of others and their need for a sympathetic ear. For true change happens by firstly accepting that there is a weakness present.
I will continue, with God's help, to move forward and ask God to help me see others through His eyes instead of mine.
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George Aar
Well, in fairness to you, it sounds like you didn't have much of a childhood.
Sheesh, 18 years (some very formative ones at that) is enough to screw with anybody's head for a good long while.
Maybe you just need a little more time and experience in the real world to lighten up a little bit.
I've found that people - with a few notable exceptions - are generally good-hearted, friendly, and as giving as they can be, just about the world over (anywhere I've been in it, anyway).
The only trouble comes when superstitious belief systems corrupt on otherwise healthy brain. Then all sorts of crap can happen. Genocide, inquisitions, wars, terrorism, you name it. Anything goes once people give their brains over to religion.
But then, that's just my opinion...
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vickles
I had a hard time cultivating friends for a long time. We learned in twi to look for other people's weaknesses if they were not 'walking' on the word. Somehow, you have to get past that and look at people as they are. Human and all.
What helped for me was finding the right therapist and worked it out that way. There is nothing wrong with finding professional help if that is what you need. I did and am so glad I did. I happened to get an ex-nun that totally understood what I went through. So, just any therapist would not do but finding the right one that fits for you.
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dmiller
MCarroll -- when you said --
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I dont know if any of you out there are having a hard time at cultivating friendships like me. I know that I am making myself very vulnerable by posting this here but Im really tired of not having any friends, but I honestly dont know how to change."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I immediately thought of the prayer room here at this site. There are many of us here who go there daily to look for new requests to pray for, and seek deliverance for the petitioner.
Post your request there. There are some left here who do believe in God delivering thru prayer! If you want to change, it can be done.
:)-->
By the way -- iron sharpens iron means just that. Confrontation can "sharpen" a person when other methods fail, but the trick is to know when to use your "iron" !!
;)-->
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shazdancer
HI MCarroll,and welcome!
One of the things that TWI put in our heads is the idea that everything and everybody is either white or black, godly or devilish. If devilish, TWI wrote them off without a backward glance. (I guess it was just too much work to help someone, when there were other people to fleece, er, believers to love!)
I have found instead that most people try to do good most of the time. Most of us are just bound by our emotional needs. Knowing that makes most of the little foibles in people totally forgiveable, including my own. I try to appreciate others for their uniqueness -- if they were all like me, God help us all!
:D--> I draw the line when something someone does harms another, but otherwise, to each his own.
Regards,
Shaz
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simpatico
Hi MCarroll!
Great question.
Perhaps without compromising your own belief system or walk (however you may choose to call it) If you try and keep in the front of your mind that it is " your own" personal walk not that of your new found friend.
This way your new friend should she be Hindu, Buddhist , Jewish, Atheist, or Christian will feel safe in your presence.
We were so indoctrinated for so many years, we were all taught to allow ourselves to be controlled, and at the same time to be controlling of others.
Hows that for "Iron sharpeneth Iron" . So in our honest attempt to build character we were building character defects.
This kind of goes into the area of "boundaries".
It might be helpful to check out a few self help books from the library , or do as I do and take a whole stack into the cafe area of a Borders or Barnes and Noble and read away.
I would love to offer a title or two, but I will have to think about that and post again later.
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Tom Strange
Hi there MCarrol! I think you already know the answer:
and like the others have said, it's about allowing people to be human without feeling the need to correct them, or share with them their apparent "infirmities"...it'll come to you, be patient with yourself... allow YOU to be human without condemnation and you'll find that you will more easily be able to allow others to be human without condemnation...
Whether someone is right or wrong, according to your measuring stick, doesn't really mean a whole lot in the greater scheme of life does it?
allowing others the freedom to have different beliefs and feelings than you do is one of the biggest steps in making and keeping real friends... they'll appreciate you for it and you'll appreciate them more as well...
I know this is easier said than done, it's life ya know? and it looks like you've got a good partner there to help you along with your walk...
you WILL make it, just be patient (with your husband, your friends and yourself as well) and keep growing...
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excathedra
when i first "got out" (love you igotout), i had a similar difficulty.... for ME the problem was ME. i don't know how to explain this. i've been thinking about it on and off all day
i think, once i started to relax a bit and love myself, it became easier to relax around others
most times in present day reality, i listen more than i talk. and i find people really like me because they LOVE to talk about themselves
;)--> 
;)--> 
;)--> i say uh huh uh huh.....
they think i'm smart
;)--> 
;)--> 
;)-->
but seriously most folks just want to be loved unconditionally, and understood, right ?
ps. i need to learn this lesson here
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excathedra
i no longer view life or folks as right or wrong
just a give and take
all of us trying to just get along....
hugs to you mcarr i think you're great
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notinKansasanymore
This is a great topic. I also find it very difficult to make friends beyond those whom I had twenty years ago. I am friendly with people, and have light friendships, but nothing deep, except for my husband, and my sister. My oldest non-family friend is someone with whom I haven't shared a cup of coffee in five years, but when we get on the phone together, it's like yesterday. But we don't get together, even on the phone, very often any more.
Part of the reason that I don't make friends easily is probably that I'm just so busy right now, with work, kids, and trying to get my husband alone every once in awhile. I often think that if I could take the time to join a book club, or be in Junior League, or something else where people actually spend time outside of work or family, that the potential would be there for friendships.
Also, leaving twi made me a more introspective, private person than I was before.
I think that the greasepotters have made some great comments on this thread. Lots of good ideas to help.
But McCarroll, you're certainly not alone. I'd be willing to bet that a lot of us have trust "issues."
Just like every other bit of baggage that we carried out of the way, we will keep those issues as long as we want to, and then we will just drop them off to the side, and keep on going, to freedom.
love, niKa
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My3Cents
I think the problem is that you have a standard you expect is "right" or "good" for people. You probably believe this standard is God's will or "the word" or something. The result is if people don't do what you think they should, you judge that as a weakness or something wrong. So your only choices are to try to change them (by confrontation or reproof or teaching) or to be quiet and hope they "grow" or change on their own.
Either way you are judging them as not good enough because you have a standard you believe they should live up to.
Perhaps I'm not like most people, but I don't feel real friendly toward people who think I'm not good enough.
Just my 2 cents (and one for inflation)
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Dot Matrix
Funny, but I witnessed to someone. I was no longer in TWI and did not know where to direct her. So, I told her about CES.
The funny thing was, before she met me, she knew almost nothing about God. I asked her what kind of Bible she had and she responded "green".
Then, she goes to a Momentus class and hangs with CES for a couple of weeks. (less than 30 days)
She then turns on ME and tells me horrible stuff. She told me I needed to STAND even though TWI was over for me and called me a Bible coward.... She was so mean.
I told her she better shut the phock up, who the helI did she think she was speaking to?
then, I calmed down and asked her what happened to her?
She said nothing was wrong with her she was doing/providing, "iron sharpeneth iron"
This past year Joyce Meyer taught on that whole thing and it was different then the TWI concept of being "mean". I contacted Joyce's ministry to ask for that teaching but they did not know what sermon it was included in.
Raf, maybe you know or WW what the real meaning is.
Because to me, via TWI, that whole iron sharpeneth iron thing is a license to be rotten and intolerant of people and that is not what the fruits of the spirit are.
love;
joy;
peace;
patience;
kindness;
goodness;
faithfulness;
gentleness;
self-control.
So, therefore I believe we were taught the iron thing incorrectly. (being taught it was a grating against each other sounds caustic or acromonious.) If memory serves and it has been bad of late, Joyce spoke about it in the context of when two of you are excited about the Bible and share what you are seeing. It was not meant to pound each other. Like if I read a scripture and see it in a new wonderful light and I share it and that person happens to have seen something as well... IT is a cool thing. The perversion, of course, would be to make it into something "mean".
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on March 24, 2004 at 17:24.]
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Dot Matrix
Mccarroll
"I don’t know how to be compassionate. But then there is a double standard with me. When they start to confront me, I always come back with a rebuttal. But wasn’t that how we were taught in TWI?"
The GREATEST thing I learned since leaving TWI is that word of God is the "living word" it is alive and it can speak to you. (Forget that private interpretation stuff for a minute) Ask God to reach you and give you a heart of compassion and love, tell him to speak to you via the Bible and your environment. From your heart ask him to give you depth. And he will.
Via TWI, I used to think if I saw something wrong it became my responsibility to CORRECT it. Like that is what God expected of me.
One day, after begging God for some growth in that area I re-read the serenity prayer:
God grant me the serenity
To accept the things I cannot change;
Courage to change the things I can;
And wisdom to know the difference.
I realized, in The Way, I learned how to have the courage to change the things I can but I had NEVER had "the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change"
Because somehow in the Way we thought we could change everything and we felt responsible to DO it.
I asked God to show me how to have "the serenity to accept the things I cannot change"
And the wisdom to know the difference.
My husband will NEVER use a hamper as long as he has a floor. We can argue everyday or I can accept it and just pick up the dang clothes.
(It is part of the reason I hardly go on the Mike thread's anymore.... smile)
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Jim
Making and having friends is not something that comes easy to many of us. I think that I was pulled into TWI because of the "ready made" group of friends that it provided. I don't think that I was the only one so motivated. I never had a close friend before TWI and my only close friends now are my family.
My wife, whose only involvement with TWI was the foundational class, is greatly bothered with her lack of friends. She's done lots of social stuff to try to find someone, but it's coming up on 2 years of efforts with no good results.
I'm pretty much resigned to not having close friends other than my wife and daughter. I do have business associates whose company I enjoy, but other than that and family, I'm pretty much a loner.
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Sunesis
McCarol, people here have given some great advice.
For me, I realized:
1. I am not the judge of people, God is ultimately, therefore
2. Most people are nice - just chill out and live and let live; and
3. It is NOT our job to "fix" people.
Neither your nor I can fix anyone, nor can they fix you.
In TWI, we were basically taught that anyone outside of TWI was "the other." This is not true. We are all a part of humanity - God so Loved the world... Christ loved/loves each and every one of us and died for each and every one of us. We need to get off the high horses TWI put us on.
Also, don't give anyone advice unless they ask - I know being ex-TWI that can be hard to do! People don't ask for advice unless its someone they trust and respect.
I think the fact you've identified the problem is wonderful, God working on your heart to show you a problem and get you to the point you are willing to change.
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Dot Matrix
Sunesis
Amen!
Mccarroll
Most of us struggled with what you share. Funny story, my corps sister was a waitress on her interim year and was put on probation by her boss...
Why?
She was reproving all of her customers. She honestly felt it was the right thing to do and thought she was doing God's will. Can you imagine, you had a rough day, you go to lunch and the waitress starts to confront you on areas of improvement?
We were "programmed" to be nutty.
Writing this, I now recall, I am guilty of the same thing. Oh my Gosh!
I was waitressing (so I could move the word full time and all). It was a Mexican place.
Anyway, I walked by this table and asked if they needed any more salsa. They said "no" and they had 3 bowls of it.
I then went and got the food for the table next to them.
The guy from the table with the three bowls called me over and said, "We need more salsa."
Instead of my getting it -- Oh mmmmyyyyy!
I argued with him. I pointed out that I had asked him if he needed any just two minutes ago. Now, he had to wait until I was finished with my current table. Then, I looked at the bowls - still having some salsa in them, and said, "you have enough to hold you."
And you know what? To me, I was just being honest and bold. Truth? I was being mean, critical and destructive. And I did not even SEE the difference....
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on March 22, 2004 at 11:08.]
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simpatico
I wanted to suggest a great book that
may be helpful to many of us here.
Though this book was not writen as a self help book and as such is not dumbed down in any way, it is a quick and easy read.
The Drama of the Gifted Child; The Search for the True Self by Alice Miller
For some of us it may add insight into our own personal human condition, and how we relate to others.
We all share so much in common, this is something that has helped me along the journey, just thought I would pass it on.
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herbiejuan
MCarroll,
I cultivated many aquaintences throughout my years with twi. The main reason was because I had interests outside of twig however very few of them could be called true friends.
I have found that it takes time and mutual interests to develop friendships and as someone involved witha cult, just finding something other than the bible to talk about can be quit challenging.
I would suggest not focusing so much on finding friends as finding yourself, who are you? What are your interests?
Do you skydive?
Do you press flowers?
:)-->
Do you like to snipe hunt?
-->
I'm involved with sunday school and the sustainable farming/rural preservation stuff out here and have found some folks with common interests from which to find new friends. Acceptance of who a person is, understanding that they are as an incomplete imperfect human as I am helps me overlook their glaring faults and gives me the right amount of humilty to be accepting and not judgmental.
Just my ramblings, I wish you the best,
Mikey
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Mark Sanguinetti
Hi MCarrol:
You know in spite of the teaching to read verses in their context in TWI, we rarely were encouraged to do this. The scripture in Proverbs for example with "Iron sharpeneth iron". So why did we ever think that meant we had to be hard on everyone and treat people with a heavy hand, harsh and loud voice and stern contenance? It seems to suggest the opposite. Try reading these verses in their context with this in mind.
Prov 27:14-17
14 He that blesseth his friend with a loud voice, rising early in the morning, it shall be counted a curse to him.
15 A continual dropping in a very rainy day and a contentious woman are alike.
16 Whosoever hideth her hideth the wind, and the ointment of his right hand, which bewrayeth itself.
17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.
KJV
Prov 27:14-17
14 You might as well curse your friend as wake him up early in the morning with a loud greeting.
15 A nagging wife is like water going drip-drip-drip on a rainy day. 16 How can you keep her quiet? Have you ever tried to stop the wind or ever tried to hold a handful of oil?
17 People learn from one another, just as iron sharpens iron.
TEV
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Mark Sanguinetti
Here MCarrol. Try reading this instead of thinking about what you learned in TWI.
Prov 27:15-16; Prov 27:17
Miscellaneous maxims
Here, as before, Solomon laments the case of him that has a peevish passionate wife, that is continually chiding, and making herself and all about her uneasy.
1. It is a grievance that there is no avoiding, for it is like a continual dropping in a very rainy day. The contentions of a neighbour may be like a sharp shower, troublesome for the time, yet, while it lasts, one may take shelter; but the contentions of a wife are like a constant soaking rain, for which there is no remedy but patience See Prov 19:13.
2. It is a grievance that there is no concealing. A wise man would hide it if he could, for the sake both of his own and his wife's reputation, but he cannot, any more than he can conceal the noise of the wind when it blows or the smell of a strong perfume. Those that are froward and brawling will proclaim their own shame, even when their friends, in kindness to them, would cover it.
Proverbs 27:17
Miscellaneous maxims
This intimates both the pleasure and the advantage of conversation. One man is nobody; nor will poring upon a book in a corner accomplish a man as the reading and studying of men will. Wise and profitable discourse sharpens men's wits; and those that have ever so much knowledge may by conference have something added to them. It sharpens men's looks, and, by cheering the spirits, puts a briskness and liveliness into the countenance, and gives a man such an air as shows he is pleased himself and makes him pleasing to those about him. Good men's graces are sharpened by converse with those that are good, and bad men's lusts and passions are sharpened by converse with those that are bad, as iron is sharpened by its like, especially by the file. Men are filed, made smooth, and bright, and fit for business (who were rough, and dull, and inactive), by conversation. This is designed,
1. To recommend to us this expedient for sharpening ourselves, but with a caution to take heed whom we choose to converse with, because the influence upon us is so great either for the better or for the worse.
2. To direct us what we must have in our eye in conversation, namely to improve both others and ourselves, not to pass away time or banter one another, but to provoke one another to love and to good works and so to make one another wiser and better.
(from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: New Modern Edition, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1991 by Hendrickson Publishers, Inc.)
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Galen
Mcarroll-
“I have often asked myself this question...not sure if any of you have.”
I certainly have.
“. . . I would hear "You have no friends when it comes to the Word", "No compromising..." and "Iron sharpeneth iron".
True, I think that what we think and say within our own ‘inner’ dialog is one thing. What we say to ourselves, in our thinking. It is perhaps yet another thing what we say out in public and to others.
Do you take the idea of "No compromising..." to mean that I can not allow myself to be within the room while someone else knowingly does compromise? Or that you yourself you will not allow any compromises, but you can still be aware of and ‘sharpening’ yourself when you travel the world and see others making compromises?
“My trust in others was shattered . . . “
Yes TWI had it’s problems. It was not perfect, nor was totally wrong either. Some people did see opportunities for ‘bettering’ themselves, they saw who to suck-up to for advancement. Often young and in-experienced people were put into positions of authority over others, and from all of the problems some leaders became very abusive. But that is / was a large group of people.
“ "iron sharpeneth iron" meant confronting your friends no matter how harshly you did it and growth would come out of it.”
And yet I thought it meant discussing the Word, and studying it with others who were like-minded.
The corporate body of people within TWI got focused on confronting each other. But that is forgetting the Love that is also ours.
“. . . I find it so difficult to cultivate friendships.”
Yes the failing of TWI, did leave it’s mark onto thousands. I am sorry. I certainly don’t feel entirely responsible for it, but rather I was there and I saw others taken advantage of.
G-d loves us. Jesus died for us.
“. . . I just zap them!”
Be gentle. Our father’s love is great, He is also willing to work in their lives. None of us are perfect, we are all walking on the path, He is still working in each of us.
“When I see weakness in their lives and I feel they are too wimpish, I speak up. I dont know how to be compasionate. “
I suppose that I have advantages over you here, in my life I have done things that have been fairly bad. I KNOW that way more compassion and forgiveness has been shown by Our Heavenly Father in forgiving and loving me, then would seem reasonable. I feel obligated to be compassionate toward others.
“I dont know if any of you out there are having a hard time at cultivating friendships like me. I know that I am making myself very vulnerable by posting this here. . . “
Yes, there are others in the same boat.
Feel free to private message me, or email me.
“Thanks for listening (ahem, reading) anyway.”
You are in the same boat as many of us. Don’t give up. Don’t release your beliefs, or relax your strandards.
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MCarroll
I really want to thank the many of you who have responded to my post. Your many suggestions, comments and encouragement are greatly appreciated and are being considered as we speak.
Thank you for the verses posted for I will try to make them my own. Even the mere fact that I spoke outloud, or should I say, wrote in a public forum, the struggles that I deal with when it comes to criticizing and judging others, it has made me more aware of my lack of compassion of others and their need for a sympathetic ear. For true change happens by firstly accepting that there is a weakness present.
I will continue, with God's help, to move forward and ask God to help me see others through His eyes instead of mine.
Thank you all!
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excathedra
and don't be too hard on yourself (((((((MC))))))) cyber hugs
;)-->
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Dot Matrix
Mark
That was wonderful! Thank you!
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Mark Sanguinetti
Thanks Dot. Cyber hugs to all.
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