quote:My intention was to ask about the thought processes of how people chose their present church.
When I left TWI, I needed a complete break from it all for a while. I saw a lot that was going wrong...a lot that was hurting people and was "off the Word." Fortunately, as one in the military, my decision to walk away from it came at about the same time as a move brought on by the military. I went to an overseas country that had no fellowships, either with Americans or with local nationals. So, I essentially disappeared for about a year and a half. I kept in touch, to one degree or another, with some believer friends, so that I could keep an ear on what was going on.
When I got back to the states a year and a half later, I was stationed in a different part of the country. I found a "splinter group" and went to fellowship with them, but it just didn't click (this was before the CES came out (or at least before I heard of them) and before there was some degree of organization among these splinter groups -- they were pretty much underground at that time). I then tried to find a church. But, with my "waybrain," it was very difficult to do so. I always found fault with their doctrine and/ or their practice. So, I went from place to place to place. Something that I had tried as a teen and young adult before I found TWI (or TWI found me).
So, I gave up. For several years.
I did what so many have done and said, "I'll just study the Word on my own and not bother otherwise."
You know, that didn't work for me.
After a few years without doing a thing, I started feeling a need to associate with other people again, to be involved in something larger than myself. So, I recognized that I needed to re-evaluate my beliefs I got during the time I was in TWI. My view of what remained was that LCM had gone of the deep end and that TWI was no longer a factor; the splinter groups that I had encountered were not impressive. There was a sense of "is this all?" I had no interest in getting involved in JW or in some of the "oneness" Pentacostal groups. A statement made by VPW which still rang true for me was that if the doctrine gets messed up, the practice is sure to follow. Well, I decided to re-evaluate my TWI beliefs based upon that criterion. So, I started examining. I used not only the KJV Bible, as interpreted using TWI criteria, but also other archaic early Christian writings and apologetics from a number of different sources. And, since this isn't the doctrine forum, I'll leave my findings to myself, but the bottom line is that I found the TWI doctrine wanting. I found that a lot of orthodox Christian beliefs are defenseable.
So, what I did was I typed and cross-matched the written doctrine and laws of a lot of denominations. You know, I found that a lot of the so-called "liberal" Protestant denominations truly had no foundation that I could see. As somebody else on this thread said, they don't care about what you believe, they care more about who you are. Well, I saw that in practice, they really didn't stand for anything (no offense to anybody belonging to one of those denominations). They were, to their credit, very accepting. But, it seemed like they lowered themselves to the least common denominator, rather than setting the bar higher and asking people to raise themselves to it. On the other hand, it seemed like the fundamentalist/ evangelical denominations that I looked at used a lot of guilt and condemnation as their modus operendi. Arrogance. Again, not my cup of tea. I just didn't feel comfortable in either type.
So, still with the military, I moved to Andrews AFB, Maryland. Right in the heart of south Prince George's county. We did not feel comfortable sending our daughter to a public school there, so we shopped around for private schools. We tried to get her into a Lutheran school, but no luck. So we ended up putting her into a Catholic school a few miles from the base. I foreswore Catholicism years before even getting involved with TWI, so it was an interesting concept, putting my kid into a Catholic school. But, it came down to the reality that it was that or a public school (the PG County school district is the second worst in MD -- behind Baltimore City -- the part of PG County we were in at the time was the worst part of PG County). So, I found myself re-examining the Catholic doctrine again. I needed to have the proper armor to gird my daughter against the propaganda and to argue with the people in that school, you see. What I found is that it wasn't as strange as I remembered it and it was no where near as evil as TWI had convinced me it was. And, the people in that school and the people in that parish were GREAT!!! It was a middle ground between standards and acceptance that I hadn't seen. So, I started seriously looking into it. I remember that there were four issues I had to seriously deal with:
1. The trinity
2. The communion of saints (i.e., "Are the Dead Alive Now?")
3. Apostolic succession (i.e., is there authority passed down from the original apostles)
4. The sacraments (i.e., how does God make His grace known to man?)
Now this is not the doctrine forum, so I don't want to go through the process in grueling detail, but suffice it to say, I was able to resolve those to my satisfaction. And so, the family was received into the Church.
Your specific question was about the thought process. Hopefully, I've passed my thought process on here. In summary:
- I had to first examine my own TWI beliefs to see what was really true and what wasn't. The trick here is to examine those beliefs not only using VPW's interpretation of the Bible, but through a number of different mechanisms. Challenge your assumptions -- hold to what is true; reject that which doesn't stand up to good scrutiny. (One thing I looked at was that we should probably give a whole lot of credence to beliefs more or less universally held true for over 2,000 years -- if VPW disagreed with it, maybe we need to scrutinize our beliefs very carefully in that area in particular)
- I then had to find a group with whom I both felt comfortable and would provide a mechanism for some type of growth (read that moral standards)
- After I find such a group, I need to do a reality check on their doctrine and practice to make sure it is going to pass my muster
- Before establishing communion with a group, you need to make sure you are comfortable with their teachings. I cannot understand the concept of going to Church with a group when you don't agree with fundamental aspects of their theology. They are teaching you right and wrong. (BTW, in a centrally controlled denomination, such as the Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopalians, Methodists, etc., the decision should be based upon the denomination's official canons, not upon what a specific pastor says) If you don't agree with the fundamentals of their teachings, then how can you sit there and listen?
In the approximately a year a a half that I was an "innie" who trying to get out with his family intact I seriously examined what the Way taught, starting with Martindale's classes and working my way back to PFAL and Wierwille's other teachings. Initially I used the keys to research that were taught in PFAL.
I found numerous sections of WayAP that deviated from what the biblical texts said, or were wrong in the explanation of non-biblical matters, "actual errors" if you will. There were much more that contained leaps of illogic that a third grade wouldn't make and tortured twisting in order to back up a wacky doctrine.
I decided I couldn't trust anything Martindale taught.
Examination of Wierwille's teachings did not yeild as much craziness as Martindale's, but there were plenty of "actual errors" to go around, as well as misunderstanding of Bullinger, and deviation from the much vaunted "keys".
Checking out splinter group websites showed me how multiple ansers could be derived from the same bible using the same "keys".
Throw the uncounted Christian denominations into the mix and it's pretty hard to decide which of these competing Christianities to go with.
I soon realized that there was nothing about the bible which taken objectively convinced me that it was any truer than any other "holy scripture". I decided to throw it all out and start over in my spiritual quest.
I considered myself an agnostic, one who admits to not knowing.
Not that I thought that it was impossible to know...just that I didn't know at that time.
I became interested in the spirituality of the Celts, partly due to a book written by a family member called Celtic Christianity, and began to explore the beliefs of the old religions. More and more I gravitated toward pagan spirituality in my private thoughts, yet still retaining my agnosticism, my skepticism.
Last year I met a woman who was part of a circle of pagans and I began to attend sabbat rituals. Altough my skepticism drives some of them nuts sometimes, I enjoy the fellowship and I find my spiritual need satisfied (for now at least).
Grew up in a Roman Catholic household, never really ''liked'' going to church, 'cept for Christmas midnight mass, but was forced to go by my mother...
Although I never really liked church, their dogma and doctrine was all I knew, so when I met my ex husband's family (who were in TWI) and his sister in law (who was raised catholic as well) basically told me that everything I was taught, and everything I knew spiritually was wrong it was a bitter pill to swallow.
Began attending fellowships, felt the ''love bombing''. Something I never experienced in a cold catholic church. Signed my green card, took the class, blah...blah...blah...
Fast forward to 1995...divorced my husband, left my fellowship because his brother and sister in law were the TC's haven't been back since.
Now, to your question...I haven't found a ''church'' I feel comfortable enough to call home. Like Mr. Strangedude, I find huge churches with huge staffs and huge budgets very politically and socially motivated. I long for a small home fellowship where I can worship God and commune with Him and other fellow believers. I liked the ''family'' that my twig was and a large congregation doesn't do that for me.
I want to be in a church/fellowship that insn't into all the political and social jockeying and I haven't found it yet. :(-->
Until I do, I will continue to commune with Daddy every morning and try to be obedient to Him.
I am reading that book "Celtic Christianity", by a monk who's last name is Joyce??
Interesting book. I am 1/4 Irish and figure, why not get into my Irish roots? I am reading Irish myths also. Really interesting.
To EWB,
I haven't really found a church "home", but I have attended Unity Churches, Interdenominational churches (called "The Chapel" usually, Lutheran churches, and lately Episcopal church (the church of my childhood.) For different reasons, I like the different churches, doctrine of Unity (positive believing and meditation)but they believe also "anything goes", sermons at the Episcopal church I currently go to and the architecture and music of the Church (it's a beautiful cathedral). Mostly I like to read - I have diverse interests.
Did you ever read the series of books by Chaim Potak? I think the first one was called "The Chosen" which was later made into a movie. This author explains the beauty of the ancient rabbinic writings and how the orthodox community interprets them.
Dear Jen-O:
There was an old commercial that it's tag line was "only her hairdresser knows for sure".I enjoy hearing stories how we hear the voice of God from ordinary people. It sounds like you had a lot of fun going to those churches. You know one thing that drew me to the Way was the fun that the Believers had in their lives.
Dear Imbus:
I am glad that you found a church that you like. One of my opportunities is to decide what to keep and what to discard from my "Waybrain".
Dear Cynic:
Say it ain't so! I don't think that you are "a nasty Calvinist SOB". To answer your question I have attended regularly for three years. Here is a story that you will find funny. At one of my first bible studies we were reading some scripture and I displayed my "free will" leanings. A guy came up to me afterwards and said "You must be Armenian!" to which I replied "No, I am half Polish and half Ukrainian". The joke was that he was referring to Josef Armenius and I thought he was talking ethnic heritage. I still lean more to free will than predestination, but they do like me at the church.
Dear Mark:
Thanks for your well thought out post. Before I started regularly attending church I too made a list of what I could live with and what was not negotiable. Trinitarian beliefs do not bother me that much. However coming from a spiritualist background I declined any group that leaned in that direction. This is my main beef with roman catholicism. Because they believe that you can pray to Mary or the saints it is only a small leap to talk to the dead. In fact I blame this doctrine with my family's interest with seances and Edger Casey. My mother's side of the family was deeply steeped in that stuff and at the same time they regularly attended mass.
However I was glad to hear that your daughter was able to get a good education. I do have several catholic friends who are blessed by their church, but it is not for me.
Dear Oakspear:
Your answer surprised me. When I read your posts I got the idea that you held on to a lot of Way teaching. I guess that I was wrong.
I am right now reading a great book about Irish/Celtic music. At times it touches the subject of the older pagan calender and religon. I think that this is one reason for it's current popularity.
Dear Daizbro:
I think you misread my first post. I do not assume that everyone goes to church. In my area I would say that 1/3 of former Wayfers never do anything with an organized religion again.
Now to answer your question: after I was M/A I wanted to get back. I waited the prescribed six month period and then contacted my limb coordinator. To my surprise my old LC was M/A a week after me. I had jumped through all of the hoops so I was invited back, but was told that any future problems would mean being turned over to the devil. At that point I decided not to return. It all seemed so hard-hearted. I did not go to any church for about 2 years after that. Then I went from place to place for about a year, but nothing seemed that interesting. Then I met a gal and on our first date she said how excited she was about a certain presbyterian church. The relationship with her fizzled out, but I stayed at the church.
That's my uncle Tim. When you're done email or PT me and let me know what you think. He's also done a book called Celtic Quest as well as a book which describes an imaginary retreat hosted by St. Patrick. His emphasis is very much Celtic spirituality within the Catholic framework.
EWB:
quote:Your answer surprised me. When I read your posts I got the idea that you held on to a lot of Way teaching. I guess that I was wrong.
Hmm...wonder how I gave that impression? Well sometimes I play devil's advocate if I see what I perceive as illogic getting out of hand.
I, too, went to a PCA church and was greatly impressed with its Associate Pastor. When I tipped my hand on free will at Sunday school, he kindly gave me a copy of The Five Points of Calvinism. I'm sure you're familiar with this volume.
The PCA impressed me with its faithfulness to 'sola scriptura' despite worldly pressures to depart from the faith. I never bought in to the concept of the 'limited atonement', but felt free to hold my own synthesis of free will and election. This doctrinal point posed no problem. However, the Associate Pastor moved on, and the church's Senior Pastor was just a bit uptight for me.
I truly believe that I'll see these folks at the resurrection and will enjoy happy fellowship with them then. But, in the meantime, though, it's kind of a drag.
I think there are actually several dimensions in selecting a church. The first, as already mentioned, relates to doctrine. The second, relates to the "style" of worship. Some folks really like a liturgical service; others prefer a less rote, unstructured service. Some like the old hymns; others like the modern 'praise' music. Some think communion should be every week; others, less frequently. I don't think God much cares as long as the service is truly worshipful.
On doctrine, you're gonna find it hard to get around the Trinity issue if you're still a monotheist (I know, I know) and want to go to a church that believes that Jesus is the Son of God. I've developed a shaky rationalization for worshipping with Trinitarians that I know would be hard to explain and defend.
My main doctrinal problem is with the immortality of the soul and the prospects of eternal hellfire for unbelievers.
But, I'm one to talk ... I now attend a Nazarene Church 'cause its near my house. I attend infrequently and could hardly call it my "church home". I suppose I'm just a spiritual hitchhiker.
It's been almost four years since being M/A for me. I keep wanting the small fellowship atmosphere as opposed to a large congregation. I am freaked out about being controlled by any organization. This is a really sore spot with me.
I have needed a minister twice in the past four years, once for my wedding and once for my mother's memorial. There is a wonderful pastor at a small church here in town (we live in Mayberry) who did perform our wedding and the memorial service. I remember we had to go to three counseling sessions with him and they were great. Made me want to go to his church, but the fear of control again keeps me away.
I do remember him telling my husband and I that he takes his responsibility toward God and his job very seriously, but even if we never attended his church he would always feel spiritiualy responsible for our oversight because he counseled and married us. That is why I felt so comfortable with him at mom's memorial service. And two years after our marriage he was there for us.
I keep wanting to go but the fear of someone trying to control me always stands in the way.
My thought processes--dangerous and murky territory for the unwary there!
THings I never agreed with:
I never agreed with the doctine that says:
If a man is born in A remote tribe in the Amazon basin with no contacts outside his little area and lives all his life in a righeous fashion he will not receive eternal life because he didn't accept Jesus Christ--never mind that there is no way that he ever had the opportunity while here on earth.
Mainstream CHristian View of Eternal Life --When my grandmother passed away. I mentioned that I was doing okay because I knew we would spend eternity together. I was told that isn't how it works--I then found out that What is considered "Mainstream" Christian doctrine teaches we will see each other ONLY at the ressurection then if we gain eternal life we will spend all eternity adoring GOD And Jesus Christ with no other thoughts in our head. Christian Churches don't really spell this out--most of us think we will get to be together for eternity and little is done to dispel this notion unless you confront it head on like I did
the Trinty --Much as I Hate to agree with ANything TWI taught they were right on this although I do not agree with many aspects of TWI's portrayal of GOD , Jesus Christ and The Holy Ghost.
So after 13 years of bouncing from here to there I joined the LDS church (Mormons) And am Happier than I've ever been
Now I realize where I got that idea: a few months ago Mike was courting you to be his disciple. Now I understand that you were playing devil's advocate.
Dear Skeptical Texan:
When I read your post I started to laugh out loud becuase you hit the nail right on the head. You wrote:
"On doctrine, you're gonna find it hard to get around the Trinity issue if you're still a monotheist (I know, I know) and want to go to a church that believes that Jesus is the Son of God. I've developed a shaky rationalization for worshipping with Trinitarians that I know would be hard to explain and defend."
When I went to monotheist churches they seemed so strange. The Jehova Witness' were full of pharasic regulation and the Uniteraians where having a seminar on how get a familure spirit for contacting the "other world". Besides most church folks don't really believe in the trinity so I consider it a less important issue.
Dear Man of 1,000 names:
The first reason I am asking this question here is not for validation of my decision. I was geuninly curious as to see the thinking behind how people made their choices.
The second reason is that because we are all from The Way we have the bond of a shared experience. So I am more interested in answers from people at Greasespot than I am from other sources.
Lastly it is my opinion that the reason that the Way was a blessing for many of us (at one time) was because it was based on The Living God. Perhaps leadership may not have been well trained or out to serve less than godly interests, but it was God who blessed individual people. My desire to find a church is based on what I know I need for my life.
Dear Out of a Fog:
Do you really live in Mayberry RFD?
In your four paragraph post you say three times that you do not want to be controlled by an organization. One thing that I learned from my Way experience is that we give control of our lives to others. I hope that I am now a better judge of people and organizations than I was a few years ago.
Dear templelady:
The trinity does not really make sense. Are the Mormons monotheisistic?
One GOD father of All, Jesus Christ His only begotten Son our only savior and redeemer and the Holy Ghost indwelling in those who have repented, and been baptized for the remission of sins.
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markomalley
When I left TWI, I needed a complete break from it all for a while. I saw a lot that was going wrong...a lot that was hurting people and was "off the Word." Fortunately, as one in the military, my decision to walk away from it came at about the same time as a move brought on by the military. I went to an overseas country that had no fellowships, either with Americans or with local nationals. So, I essentially disappeared for about a year and a half. I kept in touch, to one degree or another, with some believer friends, so that I could keep an ear on what was going on.
When I got back to the states a year and a half later, I was stationed in a different part of the country. I found a "splinter group" and went to fellowship with them, but it just didn't click (this was before the CES came out (or at least before I heard of them) and before there was some degree of organization among these splinter groups -- they were pretty much underground at that time). I then tried to find a church. But, with my "waybrain," it was very difficult to do so. I always found fault with their doctrine and/ or their practice. So, I went from place to place to place. Something that I had tried as a teen and young adult before I found TWI (or TWI found me).
So, I gave up. For several years.
I did what so many have done and said, "I'll just study the Word on my own and not bother otherwise."
You know, that didn't work for me.
After a few years without doing a thing, I started feeling a need to associate with other people again, to be involved in something larger than myself. So, I recognized that I needed to re-evaluate my beliefs I got during the time I was in TWI. My view of what remained was that LCM had gone of the deep end and that TWI was no longer a factor; the splinter groups that I had encountered were not impressive. There was a sense of "is this all?" I had no interest in getting involved in JW or in some of the "oneness" Pentacostal groups. A statement made by VPW which still rang true for me was that if the doctrine gets messed up, the practice is sure to follow. Well, I decided to re-evaluate my TWI beliefs based upon that criterion. So, I started examining. I used not only the KJV Bible, as interpreted using TWI criteria, but also other archaic early Christian writings and apologetics from a number of different sources. And, since this isn't the doctrine forum, I'll leave my findings to myself, but the bottom line is that I found the TWI doctrine wanting. I found that a lot of orthodox Christian beliefs are defenseable.
So, what I did was I typed and cross-matched the written doctrine and laws of a lot of denominations. You know, I found that a lot of the so-called "liberal" Protestant denominations truly had no foundation that I could see. As somebody else on this thread said, they don't care about what you believe, they care more about who you are. Well, I saw that in practice, they really didn't stand for anything (no offense to anybody belonging to one of those denominations). They were, to their credit, very accepting. But, it seemed like they lowered themselves to the least common denominator, rather than setting the bar higher and asking people to raise themselves to it. On the other hand, it seemed like the fundamentalist/ evangelical denominations that I looked at used a lot of guilt and condemnation as their modus operendi. Arrogance. Again, not my cup of tea. I just didn't feel comfortable in either type.
So, still with the military, I moved to Andrews AFB, Maryland. Right in the heart of south Prince George's county. We did not feel comfortable sending our daughter to a public school there, so we shopped around for private schools. We tried to get her into a Lutheran school, but no luck. So we ended up putting her into a Catholic school a few miles from the base. I foreswore Catholicism years before even getting involved with TWI, so it was an interesting concept, putting my kid into a Catholic school. But, it came down to the reality that it was that or a public school (the PG County school district is the second worst in MD -- behind Baltimore City -- the part of PG County we were in at the time was the worst part of PG County). So, I found myself re-examining the Catholic doctrine again. I needed to have the proper armor to gird my daughter against the propaganda and to argue with the people in that school, you see. What I found is that it wasn't as strange as I remembered it and it was no where near as evil as TWI had convinced me it was. And, the people in that school and the people in that parish were GREAT!!! It was a middle ground between standards and acceptance that I hadn't seen. So, I started seriously looking into it. I remember that there were four issues I had to seriously deal with:
1. The trinity
2. The communion of saints (i.e., "Are the Dead Alive Now?")
3. Apostolic succession (i.e., is there authority passed down from the original apostles)
4. The sacraments (i.e., how does God make His grace known to man?)
Now this is not the doctrine forum, so I don't want to go through the process in grueling detail, but suffice it to say, I was able to resolve those to my satisfaction. And so, the family was received into the Church.
Your specific question was about the thought process. Hopefully, I've passed my thought process on here. In summary:
- I had to first examine my own TWI beliefs to see what was really true and what wasn't. The trick here is to examine those beliefs not only using VPW's interpretation of the Bible, but through a number of different mechanisms. Challenge your assumptions -- hold to what is true; reject that which doesn't stand up to good scrutiny. (One thing I looked at was that we should probably give a whole lot of credence to beliefs more or less universally held true for over 2,000 years -- if VPW disagreed with it, maybe we need to scrutinize our beliefs very carefully in that area in particular)
- I then had to find a group with whom I both felt comfortable and would provide a mechanism for some type of growth (read that moral standards)
- After I find such a group, I need to do a reality check on their doctrine and practice to make sure it is going to pass my muster
- Before establishing communion with a group, you need to make sure you are comfortable with their teachings. I cannot understand the concept of going to Church with a group when you don't agree with fundamental aspects of their theology. They are teaching you right and wrong. (BTW, in a centrally controlled denomination, such as the Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopalians, Methodists, etc., the decision should be based upon the denomination's official canons, not upon what a specific pastor says) If you don't agree with the fundamentals of their teachings, then how can you sit there and listen?
FWIW
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Oakspear
In the approximately a year a a half that I was an "innie" who trying to get out with his family intact I seriously examined what the Way taught, starting with Martindale's classes and working my way back to PFAL and Wierwille's other teachings. Initially I used the keys to research that were taught in PFAL.
I found numerous sections of WayAP that deviated from what the biblical texts said, or were wrong in the explanation of non-biblical matters, "actual errors" if you will. There were much more that contained leaps of illogic that a third grade wouldn't make and tortured twisting in order to back up a wacky doctrine.
I decided I couldn't trust anything Martindale taught.
Examination of Wierwille's teachings did not yeild as much craziness as Martindale's, but there were plenty of "actual errors" to go around, as well as misunderstanding of Bullinger, and deviation from the much vaunted "keys".
Checking out splinter group websites showed me how multiple ansers could be derived from the same bible using the same "keys".
Throw the uncounted Christian denominations into the mix and it's pretty hard to decide which of these competing Christianities to go with.
I soon realized that there was nothing about the bible which taken objectively convinced me that it was any truer than any other "holy scripture". I decided to throw it all out and start over in my spiritual quest.
I considered myself an agnostic, one who admits to not knowing.
Not that I thought that it was impossible to know...just that I didn't know at that time.
I became interested in the spirituality of the Celts, partly due to a book written by a family member called Celtic Christianity, and began to explore the beliefs of the old religions. More and more I gravitated toward pagan spirituality in my private thoughts, yet still retaining my agnosticism, my skepticism.
Last year I met a woman who was part of a circle of pagans and I began to attend sabbat rituals. Altough my skepticism drives some of them nuts sometimes, I enjoy the fellowship and I find my spiritual need satisfied (for now at least).
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diazbro
There is an interesting question that I have always wanted to ask: how did you pick the church that you currently attend?
>>
Well why make the blanket assumption that everybody goes to church ? I know lots of
former Way people who don't go to church.
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jezusfreaky
EW...
I'll try to be brief...
Grew up in a Roman Catholic household, never really ''liked'' going to church, 'cept for Christmas midnight mass, but was forced to go by my mother...
Although I never really liked church, their dogma and doctrine was all I knew, so when I met my ex husband's family (who were in TWI) and his sister in law (who was raised catholic as well) basically told me that everything I was taught, and everything I knew spiritually was wrong it was a bitter pill to swallow.
Began attending fellowships, felt the ''love bombing''. Something I never experienced in a cold catholic church. Signed my green card, took the class, blah...blah...blah...
Fast forward to 1995...divorced my husband, left my fellowship because his brother and sister in law were the TC's haven't been back since.
Now, to your question...I haven't found a ''church'' I feel comfortable enough to call home. Like Mr. Strangedude, I find huge churches with huge staffs and huge budgets very politically and socially motivated. I long for a small home fellowship where I can worship God and commune with Him and other fellow believers. I liked the ''family'' that my twig was and a large congregation doesn't do that for me.
I want to be in a church/fellowship that insn't into all the political and social jockeying and I haven't found it yet.
:(-->
Until I do, I will continue to commune with Daddy every morning and try to be obedient to Him.
Thanks for asking.
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CircleGame
Oakspear,
I am reading that book "Celtic Christianity", by a monk who's last name is Joyce??
Interesting book. I am 1/4 Irish and figure, why not get into my Irish roots? I am reading Irish myths also. Really interesting.
To EWB,
I haven't really found a church "home", but I have attended Unity Churches, Interdenominational churches (called "The Chapel" usually, Lutheran churches, and lately Episcopal church (the church of my childhood.) For different reasons, I like the different churches, doctrine of Unity (positive believing and meditation)but they believe also "anything goes", sermons at the Episcopal church I currently go to and the architecture and music of the Church (it's a beautiful cathedral). Mostly I like to read - I have diverse interests.
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E. W. Bullinger
Dear Abigail:
Did you ever read the series of books by Chaim Potak? I think the first one was called "The Chosen" which was later made into a movie. This author explains the beauty of the ancient rabbinic writings and how the orthodox community interprets them.
Dear Jen-O:
There was an old commercial that it's tag line was "only her hairdresser knows for sure".I enjoy hearing stories how we hear the voice of God from ordinary people. It sounds like you had a lot of fun going to those churches. You know one thing that drew me to the Way was the fun that the Believers had in their lives.
Dear Imbus:
I am glad that you found a church that you like. One of my opportunities is to decide what to keep and what to discard from my "Waybrain".
Dear Cynic:
Say it ain't so! I don't think that you are "a nasty Calvinist SOB". To answer your question I have attended regularly for three years. Here is a story that you will find funny. At one of my first bible studies we were reading some scripture and I displayed my "free will" leanings. A guy came up to me afterwards and said "You must be Armenian!" to which I replied "No, I am half Polish and half Ukrainian". The joke was that he was referring to Josef Armenius and I thought he was talking ethnic heritage. I still lean more to free will than predestination, but they do like me at the church.
Dear Mark:
Thanks for your well thought out post. Before I started regularly attending church I too made a list of what I could live with and what was not negotiable. Trinitarian beliefs do not bother me that much. However coming from a spiritualist background I declined any group that leaned in that direction. This is my main beef with roman catholicism. Because they believe that you can pray to Mary or the saints it is only a small leap to talk to the dead. In fact I blame this doctrine with my family's interest with seances and Edger Casey. My mother's side of the family was deeply steeped in that stuff and at the same time they regularly attended mass.
However I was glad to hear that your daughter was able to get a good education. I do have several catholic friends who are blessed by their church, but it is not for me.
Dear Oakspear:
Your answer surprised me. When I read your posts I got the idea that you held on to a lot of Way teaching. I guess that I was wrong.
I am right now reading a great book about Irish/Celtic music. At times it touches the subject of the older pagan calender and religon. I think that this is one reason for it's current popularity.
Dear Daizbro:
I think you misread my first post. I do not assume that everyone goes to church. In my area I would say that 1/3 of former Wayfers never do anything with an organized religion again.
Now to answer your question: after I was M/A I wanted to get back. I waited the prescribed six month period and then contacted my limb coordinator. To my surprise my old LC was M/A a week after me. I had jumped through all of the hoops so I was invited back, but was told that any future problems would mean being turned over to the devil. At that point I decided not to return. It all seemed so hard-hearted. I did not go to any church for about 2 years after that. Then I went from place to place for about a year, but nothing seemed that interesting. Then I met a gal and on our first date she said how excited she was about a certain presbyterian church. The relationship with her fizzled out, but I stayed at the church.
EWB
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Oakspear
imablver:
That's my uncle Tim. When you're done email or PT me and let me know what you think. He's also done a book called Celtic Quest as well as a book which describes an imaginary retreat hosted by St. Patrick. His emphasis is very much Celtic spirituality within the Catholic framework.
EWB:
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The Skeptical Texan
EW,
I, too, went to a PCA church and was greatly impressed with its Associate Pastor. When I tipped my hand on free will at Sunday school, he kindly gave me a copy of The Five Points of Calvinism. I'm sure you're familiar with this volume.
The PCA impressed me with its faithfulness to 'sola scriptura' despite worldly pressures to depart from the faith. I never bought in to the concept of the 'limited atonement', but felt free to hold my own synthesis of free will and election. This doctrinal point posed no problem. However, the Associate Pastor moved on, and the church's Senior Pastor was just a bit uptight for me.
I truly believe that I'll see these folks at the resurrection and will enjoy happy fellowship with them then. But, in the meantime, though, it's kind of a drag.
I think there are actually several dimensions in selecting a church. The first, as already mentioned, relates to doctrine. The second, relates to the "style" of worship. Some folks really like a liturgical service; others prefer a less rote, unstructured service. Some like the old hymns; others like the modern 'praise' music. Some think communion should be every week; others, less frequently. I don't think God much cares as long as the service is truly worshipful.
On doctrine, you're gonna find it hard to get around the Trinity issue if you're still a monotheist (I know, I know) and want to go to a church that believes that Jesus is the Son of God. I've developed a shaky rationalization for worshipping with Trinitarians that I know would be hard to explain and defend.
My main doctrinal problem is with the immortality of the soul and the prospects of eternal hellfire for unbelievers.
But, I'm one to talk ... I now attend a Nazarene Church 'cause its near my house. I attend infrequently and could hardly call it my "church home". I suppose I'm just a spiritual hitchhiker.
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TheManOfa Thousand ScreenNames
EW,
I've been thinking about your question regarding thought processes.
What do you want out of a church? Perhaps that is the place to start.
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outofdafog
It's been almost four years since being M/A for me. I keep wanting the small fellowship atmosphere as opposed to a large congregation. I am freaked out about being controlled by any organization. This is a really sore spot with me.
I have needed a minister twice in the past four years, once for my wedding and once for my mother's memorial. There is a wonderful pastor at a small church here in town (we live in Mayberry) who did perform our wedding and the memorial service. I remember we had to go to three counseling sessions with him and they were great. Made me want to go to his church, but the fear of control again keeps me away.
I do remember him telling my husband and I that he takes his responsibility toward God and his job very seriously, but even if we never attended his church he would always feel spiritiualy responsible for our oversight because he counseled and married us. That is why I felt so comfortable with him at mom's memorial service. And two years after our marriage he was there for us.
I keep wanting to go but the fear of someone trying to control me always stands in the way.
outofdafog
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Radar OReilly
Outofdafog,
Check your private topics?
ROR
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templelady
My thought processes--dangerous and murky territory for the unwary there!
THings I never agreed with:
I never agreed with the doctine that says:
If a man is born in A remote tribe in the Amazon basin with no contacts outside his little area and lives all his life in a righeous fashion he will not receive eternal life because he didn't accept Jesus Christ--never mind that there is no way that he ever had the opportunity while here on earth.
Mainstream CHristian View of Eternal Life --When my grandmother passed away. I mentioned that I was doing okay because I knew we would spend eternity together. I was told that isn't how it works--I then found out that What is considered "Mainstream" Christian doctrine teaches we will see each other ONLY at the ressurection then if we gain eternal life we will spend all eternity adoring GOD And Jesus Christ with no other thoughts in our head. Christian Churches don't really spell this out--most of us think we will get to be together for eternity and little is done to dispel this notion unless you confront it head on like I did
the Trinty --Much as I Hate to agree with ANything TWI taught they were right on this although I do not agree with many aspects of TWI's portrayal of GOD , Jesus Christ and The Holy Ghost.
So after 13 years of bouncing from here to there I joined the LDS church (Mormons) And am Happier than I've ever been
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E. W. Bullinger
Dear Oakspear:
Now I realize where I got that idea: a few months ago Mike was courting you to be his disciple. Now I understand that you were playing devil's advocate.
Dear Skeptical Texan:
When I read your post I started to laugh out loud becuase you hit the nail right on the head. You wrote:
"On doctrine, you're gonna find it hard to get around the Trinity issue if you're still a monotheist (I know, I know) and want to go to a church that believes that Jesus is the Son of God. I've developed a shaky rationalization for worshipping with Trinitarians that I know would be hard to explain and defend."
When I went to monotheist churches they seemed so strange. The Jehova Witness' were full of pharasic regulation and the Uniteraians where having a seminar on how get a familure spirit for contacting the "other world". Besides most church folks don't really believe in the trinity so I consider it a less important issue.
Dear Man of 1,000 names:
The first reason I am asking this question here is not for validation of my decision. I was geuninly curious as to see the thinking behind how people made their choices.
The second reason is that because we are all from The Way we have the bond of a shared experience. So I am more interested in answers from people at Greasespot than I am from other sources.
Lastly it is my opinion that the reason that the Way was a blessing for many of us (at one time) was because it was based on The Living God. Perhaps leadership may not have been well trained or out to serve less than godly interests, but it was God who blessed individual people. My desire to find a church is based on what I know I need for my life.
Dear Out of a Fog:
Do you really live in Mayberry RFD?
In your four paragraph post you say three times that you do not want to be controlled by an organization. One thing that I learned from my Way experience is that we give control of our lives to others. I hope that I am now a better judge of people and organizations than I was a few years ago.
Dear templelady:
The trinity does not really make sense. Are the Mormons monotheisistic?
EWB
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templelady
MOst definitely we are monotheistic.
One GOD father of All, Jesus Christ His only begotten Son our only savior and redeemer and the Holy Ghost indwelling in those who have repented, and been baptized for the remission of sins.
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Trefor Heywood
Erm not quite correct templelady...
Mormonism believes that there are many world and many gods but that we are only in relationship with one of them.
It also believes that we may progress to become gods ourselves of our own planets.
This has been played down recently by Gordon B. Hinckley in a TV interview with Larry King, but is nonetheless still official LDS doctrine.
See the Book of Abraham Chapter 4 in the Pearl of Great Price for example.
Somehow I just knew you were LDS!
;)-->
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templelady
All true TRevor--
BUt we are only to WOrship GOD the father--thus we are monotheistic.
ANd somehow I knew that you once were
:)-->
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Cynic
A belief that there are many gods but only one should be worshipped is henotheism, rather than monotheism.
Mormon dogma denies that God existed eternally and self-sufficiently, and teaches that he was a contingent being who was preceded by other gods.
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excathedra
and your point is ?
;)-->
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Cynic
To inform. And warn.
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Cynic
And yours?
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templelady
If that is the case then The Bible teaches henotheism.
In the Ten Commandments GOD doesn't say "I am the only GOD worship me" instead HE says "thou shalt have no other gods before ME"
Clearly showing that there are other gods but he is GOD.
I cease now because this is descending into doctrinalism which belogs on a different forum.
As for the "warning" I thank you but I am content with my decision and wish you joy in yours whatever it may be.
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CircleGame
Hi Oakspear - I sent you a PT. I hope it worked.
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excathedra
hi again cynic
my point ?
to converse and maybe even chat
:)-->
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Trefor Heywood
I think that monotheism is a belief that only one god exists now or has ever existed.
The Old Testament reference is more a reference to false gods that the other nations were worshipping that did not if fact exist.
Also Mormon theology connects Jehovah with Jesus, rather than Elohim the Father.
Henotheism is a new word to me but perhaps it fits the bill better than polytheism.
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