Groucho -- nope. I go TO the garage, get IN the car, and GO SOMEWHERE and DO SOMETHING with my life. --> You missed the point EW posed (like) TOTALLY Man! -->
E.W. -- I do not go to church, but miss the camaradirie (sp?) that we all once had. Have tried several, and my favourite was a Messianic outfit that taught a lot of thoughtful stuff connecting the Old Testament with the New. I finally left them, cause they kept hammering home the point that Jesus was "pre-existant", and that He was all over the Old Testament. (i.e. -- He was in the fiery furnace with Shad and the boys, He was the one who wrestled with Jacob, etc. etc.)
Am currently partnering with CES, tho there is no fellowship near me. I am attracted to a church if it has good bible teaching. Guess I still like to hear bible taught, and not just "pious platitudes". Have tried Evangelical outfits, 4-Square meetings, Gospel Tabernacle, even went to a Jehovah Witness meeting once. None of them cut it when it came to preaching an accurate message, based on the Word.
If your group is interested in seeing folks live Christian lives, and encourages people to do so, good for them!! I still think about visiting more churches in the area, and see what all they believe, and what the folks are like that attend.
You asked a really good question, and also a really hard one, methinks.
Since exiting our former church in the late 80's, I've been a part of many different churches of all flavors. Long story, but my husband is a musician, who had a "Christian Band." Because of his musical interests, we were involved in lotza different churches. From Pentecostal, to Baptist, to Christian Reformed, to yes even Catholic! to Independent to you name it.
All I can tell you is, don't get hung up on doctrine. We now attend a Methodist church, actually been there almost 4 years because nobody really seems to care too much about "what you believe," it's more about "who you are." Plus, it's humoongous, with 7,000 members, and really contributes mucho to our community. So it's pretty easy to find one's "niche."
Our church offers everything from support groups to foreign missions, from AA to grief support and divorce recovery, to homeless outreach to hospital visitations, ad infinitum. So whatever your "thing" is, there is room.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, I don't worry so much about "what I believe" as "what I can do" to contribute to the work of Jesus Christ.
Many of us exwayfers tend to be studiers and maybe teacher types. But we didn't have much chance to put our faith in action, which is what I love about the Methodist church. They put their money where their mouth is.
I think we as Christians are more powerful in a group, than by ourselves. ;)-->
I went to my church on and off for a year before I settled in. It takes a bit of determination to believe God will show you where to go after the Way. But a few well placed sermons that hit exactly on my issue and answered the exact questions I was asking God, and poof, I now have an awesome church home. I have been delivered of some HUGE things in my life so far since making my stand.
My church is as far away from legalistic and authoritarian as you can get. It is a Southern Baptist based church. If I thought a year ago that the things that are happening to me would, I would have not messed around so long. But God has to show you some things first. And beleive me he will. You have to keep your faith in him, even if you have no faith in what you learned at the Way. Dump it. All of it, books and all that garbage. Do not allow anyone to tell you what to do.
Allow God to show you where to go. It is imperative that you do not listen to any of us tell you where you should and should not go. Listen to God, I suspect by your question that is already there on your heart. It is ok to still listen to what God is telling you. He does speak to us outside of the Way. You are not perfect and do not need the perfect church. You need a place that you can hear God speaking to you clearly. He will show you. It does not matter which church! ex10 found hers, I found mine. You may have found yours!
You need to be part of the Body. As long as you are separated from the body, you are not doing God any good.
quote:1 Corinthians 12
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.
25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
Allow yourself to be a part of a Body. Allow people to help you, allow yourself to help others. Don't be a severed hand. That is reality that hit me one day. I hope it helps.
I haven't attended a church on a regular basis since leaving twi, but I am currently checking one out that I may. Except it's not exactly a church, it's a synagogue for Reform Jews. I picked it after much reading and then deciding I liked the moral values. I have gone once so far and liked the people as well. I will go a few more times and if I still like it, I will probaby bring my kids too.
EWB: Lot of background info for why I picked where I am. Got kicked out of TWI in '94 for standing up to them about why some members of my family could go to fellowship and others couldn't. The thing that scared me the most about leaving was habit (18 yrs) plus one liners like that your committment should be beyond your lifetime, you're a "dog soldier", you're supposed to be "salted", etc.
So for 9 months after leaving I didn't want to go to any church or fellowship. Part of me said "I'm FREE!", but another part said "I wonder how the devil's going to kill me?" So I basically walked through the open doors I was comfortable with. This led to 4 different way spinoffs and a Presbyterian church.
I currently attend fellowships associated with John Hendricks. He's got his head screwed on straight. He doesn't see devil spirits everywhere. I like being free. At age 49 I think I can decide for myself what activities to be interested in, what music to listen to, etc. The fellowship I go to does not violate this.
Other than that, I didn't spend 18 yrs in TWI because I have a problem with home based fellowships, so that had a role in why I still go to them, but I don't rule out ever going to a church again either.
In the past few months I have found myself in contact with a group of folks here in my town that are all into the "messianic jewish" movement. I have met their Rabbi's and the Reformed Rabbi and they are a great bunch of folks just trying to do what they feel God wants them to do.
Overall, I enjoy them, and I enjoy our discussions and exchanges of thoughts. The one area I am very concerned about with them is an area that you and I both experienced in twi. These folks are fundamentalist bible thumpers in a way that I completely understand, having been there myself.
They reject things like Valentine's day, calling it Sweet Hearts Day. They don't celebrate Chrismas even though they are Christians, as a matter of fact Christmas is thought of and considered almost exactly as it was to twi. My girlfriend's fiance broke up with her briefly because she isn't as "spiritual" as he is because she wasn't attending the single woman's study group regularly...are you following my drift? You and I have discussed that man...he is running for the state attorney general in the state I live in.
I hope your group is different. I certainly know that you are one smart cookie. Just keep your antenna up and tuned.
There are some very fundamentalist Messianics out there. The synagogue I am checking out is not Messianic at all, they are simply Reform Jews. This basically means their focus is more on community and character than trying to define God (which by definition is undefineable) or trying to force rules upon people.
They have two services, one on Friday nights (which I have not attended yet, because it starts so late) which is entirely in English. They have another on Saturday mornings which is more traditional and mostly in Hebrew for the more elderly folks.
After the Saturday service, they have a huge brunch. Last week it was bagels and herring (I had to work hard at not laughing at all the stereotypes). :)-->
Immediately after leaving twi I chose Apostolic churches because they operate the "gifts" in a fairly orderly fashion. Then I found out they were trinitarian.
Then followed several years of running loosely organized home fellowships. That became mundane and without much fruit.
For a few years after that, we didn't go anywhere for church and/or fellowship. That got lonely.
One day we were convinced to attend a Vineyard church. We stayed there for several months while we learned more about how deeply twi had imprinted our brains and our understanding. That church was too far out of town for us (nearly 2 hours away).
We hosted home fellowships here and there again. By then, however, I was in real doubt about the validity of home fellowships.
Then we began attending a new church some family friends opened. It took us nearly 4 years before we realized that they were nothing more than a twi offshoot...even involved in a bigger offshoot. I was M&A from that church.
Part of the reason for M&A was that I had begun to embrace mainstream church doctrines. Particularly the idea that Jesus is present and is with us always. Also, I embraced the need for ritual. So I got baptized in and joined a United Methodist Church. I got too deeply involved with the church to appreciate it as a house of worship any longer.
By then I was thoroughly disillusioned with christianity. This was followed by some dreams and some visions.
Now I am happy to praise, worship, serve and practice all by own self. It clears the lines of communication between me and the Universe.
Cookie and I have been attending a local Vineyard church since last July. We feel that we have finally found a good home.
There is quite a bit of doctrine that is taught contrary to what we learned in the Ohio cult but that's okay because we are trying to relearn what we know about God.
There are some things that I disagree on but like I said, I am willing to relearn so I don't argue any of it.
The music there is TREMENDOUS! We have so many seasoned musicians there who truly love God and his people and love to bless us with some excellent worship songs.
I have also started going to one of their small groups that they call kinships. We meet in someone's home, but it is a 180 from what we were used to in that damnable cult in Ohio :)-->
We still sing songs (w/hearts for God) and pray for one another but it is so much more genuine then before. I love it!
God has been so good to us, so "THANK YOU GOD!" Just since January we have had over 30 people become Christians in church. That is an amazing figure. The Spirit is defintely moving. We've had to expand to 3 services on Sundays to handle the influx of vistors and new regular attendees. These are exciting times!
(edited 'cuz I forgot Cookie used to be Grapeape but Paw asked her if she could pick a differnt name because I guess there was a naughty poster on this site prior to us joining who had that name and we didn't want to be associated with it so hence the name change)
[This message was edited by Sasquatch on March 23, 2004 at 19:29.]
I hesitated to answer this, since the originator wanted Christain stories, but I've felt like hanging around this place for awhile, still processing my waydaze, I guess. So I'll spill.
I chose not to have a church home a couple years ago.
When I left the way, I got involved--within months--with an off shoot.In this particular group my family seemed to be seen as a resource to be mined, immediately, like our second 'twig.' Our house for 'twigs', our muscle for various believers who were moving etc, all very instant, could we do a teaching? And think about a children's fellowship? Before we had time to get to know anyone, or adjust. We were generic believers, plug us into the machine! It was wierd and hectic. We left, with somewhat bad feelings on the both sides, I might add.
So I did nothing for a long time. Watched some TV preachers, read library books. . .Eventually I started dropping in on a few churches, and sent the kids to a youth group one evening a week, one that several of their friends went too.
Oldest only went twice, didn't like their put down of Harry Potter. The other two got super involved.
About three months later I started hearing lots of ugly stuff from them.Accusations--"You're not a Christian!" type stuff. A neighborhood kid they quit playing with because he didn't believe in God--this was a nice kid they'd had hours of uncomplicated play fun with.
It was chilling. DH and I remembered all the family crap we caused for our parents, pretty much dumping our earthly families for years to 'Move the Word.'
I took them out, put them in sports. I figured I'd find a fun but less 'exclusive' youth group.
DH by this time had become agnostic, and wanted nothing to do with church or fellowships. Our ex way contacts weren't really friends, some of them were dealing with very serious issues, and people we knew who left around the POP time were really into PFAL doctrine, still, and still looking for God's now true ministry.
As for me, my interest in the Bible just evaporated, over time, til the interest ceased to exist at all.
I did give church one more try, in a liberal mainstream church, though by this time I'd found the goddess movement via the net and books, which I found had great meaning for me. In my teens I had been a little involved in witchcraft, but back then resources and other people were very hard to find. Not so now, the small town I lived in had 3 new age stores, the internet is filled with info. . .
I wasn't ready to step away from Christianity, though. I was always a good girl, y'know? So, church.
The church was nice, friendly. It did believe in Hell, and my kids who had been so religious did hear about it from their elderly Sunday school teacher,arg, and I knew they were bothered by all that. But for me, I was just acting a part. I realized I believed very little.
I was asked to head up a teen group. On the one hand, I could teach what I liked. On the other hand, I knew I had no business teaching a catachism class, since I didn't believe many of the tenents of the faith. I thought about it for a week, then excused myself.Soon after, my job required me to work weekends for several months, and church became a thing of the past.
I have some involvement with the local pagan community, but only as much as I desire, attend an open circle or seminar put on by a Wicca group now and then...The seminars are free, except for books, if they require one, and I am never pressured to join anything or get more involved, since wiccans think the seeker needs to be the one to ask. Met a couple of ladies I consider friends( though not real close friends) that I meet for coffee now and then. For me, this is not a group or family activity, it is private and personal, and enriches my life.
I have no desire--nor do I believe in--being an 'ambassador' for my faith, or witnessing the greatness that is my beliefs to persuade others to join me. I have no problem, though, explaining what might be a more realistic view on wiccan/witch/pagan issues, as I know it(I'm no expert). I find the amount of ignorance a little shocking, and amusing, too. In fact I believe, like many pagans, that to try to sway someone to you own path can actually keep them from finding their true path, and that is doing harm.
So, this is where I am for now, don't know what the future will be. I can't analize it and say why I'm here, and not there. It's just the way it is!
Radar -- That thing about holidays you mentioned. At Beth Yeshua (the Messianic church I went to for a while), they also reject "traditional" holidays as those "ordained by man" and not by God.
They do however, observe all the feasts found in the Old Testament, since God instituted them. All are welcome there, but one has to believe EXACTLY as they do to become a member.
At Beth Yeshua, they never bothered to rename holidays, they just ignored them. Last 4th of July fell on a Friday, they held service and bible study as usual (Friday night), but most did go see the fireworks after! :D-->
I tried returning to Anglicanism, I tried Roman Cahtolicism, I even had a try at Mormonism but none took.
I think I have become too illusioned with institutional christianity and given that I would want something gay accepting and affirming also and where I am located this somewhat limits my choices. I would give the Metropolitan Community Church a go but the nearest is 100 miles away.
So like Cool Waters I worship individually and that way I have to conform to no man.
I find that even after being "out" for more than 20 years I still can't attend a 'service' without thinking of the ways it differs from what I was taught in TWI...
however, one thing I do is try to look beyond that and focus on the love the church (not just the minister or staff, but the congregation) shows... by word AND deed...
I also still can't pass some of these monolithic buildings without thinking it's a little bit of overkill, wondering what kind of message they're really trying to send (although that probably doesn't have anything to do with 'way thinking')... I just prefer to look on the value to the community, regardless of building size...
that said, I don't attend any church regularly, I go occasionally if a family memeber or friend invites me and I feel like going...
I do find myself always wanting to go inside to see "what's up" at the small, one big room, country churches though... ahh simplicity and love...
I didn't choose a church of any kind, and will only really enter one for reasons other than worship.
To see the architecture, a wedding that sort of thing.
I have decided to be true to myself, and except the fact that the thing that kept me for so long in "the way" was some kind of replacement for "community" the Tribe.
I do believe in a higher power, though it does not require participation in a group.
About a year ago...a small plot of land (about 1/2 acre x 1/2 acre) not far from my house became the church building for a small church. It looked cute, well maintained, small, and I have to drive right by it to get into and out of the small lake neighborhood that I live in. I thought to myself...on my multiple trips by it daily...."wow, that seems cool."
I cannot get to my house without going by it. I had almost convinced myself to stop in there and find out about them. I have been out of twi for 4 years and as of yet have had no interest in any sort of church experience. I thought...wow...maybe this could be it? Maybe this could be a little place that I could go...fellowship with folks.....and then work myself back into a church filled environment."
Then, one day I went by on a Sunday morning.....the "Trustee" parking lot had about 4 high dollar vehicles parked there (at least 40K each) and the rest of the cars are maybe.....15K to 25K, nicely kept, but none new, none spectacular. Just mini vans and nice family cars.
I realized right then and there...THIS IS JUST A FREAKING CULT. The leaders are living high on someone's hog......and the guy driving the 91 chrysler mini van is paying the car payments on that lexus.
It has never crossed my mind to go to any kind of a church since then.
After reading my first post again I see that I did not really ask my question correctly. My intention was to ask about the thought processes of how people chose their present church. Fortunately almost everyone gave me helpful answers to my not accurately worded question. Thanks for all of your posts!
EWB
Dear Dmiller:
I too think that I would be happiest in an "offshoot", but like you I am hours from the closest fellowship. I really do miss the feelings of comradery that I felt in the Way.
Dear Ex10:
What an interesting group of churches that you have rubbed shoulders with! I am an [amateur] musician (like your husband). However this church that I go to almost exclusively plays classical music at services. After three years of attending I can differentiate between Bach/Beethoven/Handel/Hayden/Palestina/Purcell.
P.S. thanks for the heads up about Groucho.
Dear Wrestle Not:
Thanks for the scripture quote. One reason I started going to churches was because I knew that I needed fellowship with other Believers.
Dear Abigail:
Interesting insight about the synagogue. My family wants me to go back to Roman catholic church, but I find all of the extra biblical tradition to be distracting. I expect that you would be learning a lot of great old testament stuff. Our minister just finished a three year sermon series based on the book of Exodus. There is so much learning in a lot of the details of the tabernacle.
Dear Johnny I am:
I was M/A in 95. One of my big problems with many of the churches I went to was because I wanted to fellowship with people who were committed. It was so disappointing to meet people who believed "anything goes" when it came to spiritual matters. This is one area where I think the Way ministry was correct. Too bad there was so much pharisaical thinking with all of the micro-management of our lives.
Dear Cool Waters:
I was sorry to hear that you were M/A from the offshoot. A lot of the local old Way people go to a nondenominational charismatic church. They have a fun service with lots of music and enthusiasm, but the minster plays it "fast and loose" with the scriptures. Yet it is exciting to go to a church where so many are seeing real deliverance in their lives.
Dear Sasquatch:
Your church does sound exciting! With all of the growth they are experiencing I will bet that your ministers are preaching the bible.
Dear Bramble:
I was sorry to hear that you felt "used" by your fellowship leader. I also appreciated your input. While you do not have a ‘christian' story you bring up what some folks go through after they leave the Way. I also liked your candor in how you handled yourself.
Dear Trefor:
Mormonism? It sounds like there is a good story in there somewhere!
Dear Tom Strange:
By the way.....is there a story with how you chose your handle? You bring up a good point as to the kind of message these large, ornate buildings give off to people passing by.
Dear Radar:
One thing that I do like about my church is that since it is a major denomination there are watchdogs to make sure that money is spent approriatly.
Dear Exie:
How are you doing? Haven't spoken with you in a while.
Sasquatch - I went to a Vineyard for a time after leaving TWI. In fact, the minister knew of TWI. He had a roommate who made it his "life mission" to help people get out. He was very nice and never pushy. I loved the music and freedom there - the minister did not force his doctrine on anyone. If there were disagreements over beliefs, his response was God worked in all of us differently and it was our responsibility to work it out with God what we beleived. I quit going because I just wasn't ready to get close and comfy with a bunch of "religious" people yet.
*****
E.W.,
Not having been raised Catholic, it is a bit difficult for me to relate to that, though I understand what you are saying. I actually like the traditions and ritual, but see them as symbolic not literal. And I like having the freedom to light the candles on Friday night or not. I don't feel like I have to be absolutely consistent about the rituals because this is all they are. But they are peaceful and pleasant when I feel like doing it.
The old testament teachings are interesting. I was more familiar with the OT than the new when I joined TWI anyway. Some of it fits with what we learned and some is different. BUT, with the Jewish religion - the Talmud is not just the OT. It is the OT and hundreds upon hundreds of years of rabbinical commentary to explain what the stuff means. And there is a lot of oral tradition which is believed to have been passed down since "The Beginning". It really is fascinating. Yet, all of it is about how we are supposed to do "good deeds", help others, be of good character. Also woven into that is the understanding we are human and imperfect.
i was "evicted" from twi in 97...didn't go to any church for quite a while...
then my hairdresser mentioned the "not forsaking the assembling of yourselves" scripture and i thought maybe i should look around.
so bout 1999...i started church hopping...it was really a lot of fun to see what different folks were up to...checked out CES, CFF, a CG group, and an old way home fellowship. Then i checked out a baptist church, roman catholic mass, 4-square, assembly of God, and all kinds of other denominations and independent non-denominational churches.
for a while, i was going to 3 different churches regularly...the 4 square, the assembly of God (on saturday night) and an interdenominational church....never did officially "join" anything.
currently, my 3 kids and i are attending the interdenominational church...which is 5 minutes from my house. I didn't really pick it though. my oldest son felt the most strongly about going there...it is a great church...practical teachings based on the bible and the music is AWESOME!
i've liked a lot of the churches, the music, the messages, and the people.
I attend a lot of places. My favorite is a Methodist church in Phionex.Every time I go there I am awe struck by the love that is diplayed by the minister and unity of the congrgation. It is very deversified and you can since no judgement or ridicule, just warm acceptance. They too,like ex's church, is very community minded. Has groups to suit every need. They're handeling of the Bible is very simplistic and understanably practicle. It puts me in a child like frame of mind with all my defenses down.
The other place is an Episcapal bible study. Father Charles is a genusis with the historical and intellectual background to the bible. He privatly has helped me with Way Brain. My therapist suggested meeting with him.
About the Methoist church...A gay therapist at work was looking for a church and found this one. She and her girlfriend invited me knowing my spiritual abuse hx. It has meet my most basic and yet most important need...Sweet fellowship.
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Groucho
If going to church makes someone a Christian, does going to the garage make them a car?
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dmiller
"If going to church makes someone a Christian, does going to the garage make them a car?"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Groucho -- nope. I go TO the garage, get IN the car, and GO SOMEWHERE and DO SOMETHING with my life.
--> You missed the point EW posed (like) TOTALLY Man! 
-->
E.W. -- I do not go to church, but miss the camaradirie (sp?) that we all once had. Have tried several, and my favourite was a Messianic outfit that taught a lot of thoughtful stuff connecting the Old Testament with the New. I finally left them, cause they kept hammering home the point that Jesus was "pre-existant", and that He was all over the Old Testament. (i.e. -- He was in the fiery furnace with Shad and the boys, He was the one who wrestled with Jacob, etc. etc.)
Am currently partnering with CES, tho there is no fellowship near me. I am attracted to a church if it has good bible teaching. Guess I still like to hear bible taught, and not just "pious platitudes". Have tried Evangelical outfits, 4-Square meetings, Gospel Tabernacle, even went to a Jehovah Witness meeting once. None of them cut it when it came to preaching an accurate message, based on the Word.
If your group is interested in seeing folks live Christian lives, and encourages people to do so, good for them!! I still think about visiting more churches in the area, and see what all they believe, and what the folks are like that attend.
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ex10
EWB
You asked a really good question, and also a really hard one, methinks.
Since exiting our former church in the late 80's, I've been a part of many different churches of all flavors. Long story, but my husband is a musician, who had a "Christian Band." Because of his musical interests, we were involved in lotza different churches. From Pentecostal, to Baptist, to Christian Reformed, to yes even Catholic! to Independent to you name it.
All I can tell you is, don't get hung up on doctrine. We now attend a Methodist church, actually been there almost 4 years because nobody really seems to care too much about "what you believe," it's more about "who you are." Plus, it's humoongous, with 7,000 members, and really contributes mucho to our community. So it's pretty easy to find one's "niche."
Our church offers everything from support groups to foreign missions, from AA to grief support and divorce recovery, to homeless outreach to hospital visitations, ad infinitum. So whatever your "thing" is, there is room.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, I don't worry so much about "what I believe" as "what I can do" to contribute to the work of Jesus Christ.
Many of us exwayfers tend to be studiers and maybe teacher types. But we didn't have much chance to put our faith in action, which is what I love about the Methodist church. They put their money where their mouth is.
I think we as Christians are more powerful in a group, than by ourselves.
;)-->
Hope this helps you, EWB.
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ex10
And PS
Groucho is one of the most well balanced ex-cultist Christians around. So don't let him fool ya!
:)-->
So sorry I told on you, Groucho.
:(-->
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WrestlenotAgainst
I went to my church on and off for a year before I settled in. It takes a bit of determination to believe God will show you where to go after the Way. But a few well placed sermons that hit exactly on my issue and answered the exact questions I was asking God, and poof, I now have an awesome church home. I have been delivered of some HUGE things in my life so far since making my stand.
My church is as far away from legalistic and authoritarian as you can get. It is a Southern Baptist based church. If I thought a year ago that the things that are happening to me would, I would have not messed around so long. But God has to show you some things first. And beleive me he will. You have to keep your faith in him, even if you have no faith in what you learned at the Way. Dump it. All of it, books and all that garbage. Do not allow anyone to tell you what to do.
Allow God to show you where to go. It is imperative that you do not listen to any of us tell you where you should and should not go. Listen to God, I suspect by your question that is already there on your heart. It is ok to still listen to what God is telling you. He does speak to us outside of the Way. You are not perfect and do not need the perfect church. You need a place that you can hear God speaking to you clearly. He will show you. It does not matter which church! ex10 found hers, I found mine. You may have found yours!
You need to be part of the Body. As long as you are separated from the body, you are not doing God any good.
Allow yourself to be a part of a Body. Allow people to help you, allow yourself to help others. Don't be a severed hand. That is reality that hit me one day. I hope it helps.
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wyteduv58
We fellowship with John Hendricks. He's very kind and funny and sweet,never bad mouths TWI, but does teach alot of the truth we learned in TWI.
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Abigail
I haven't attended a church on a regular basis since leaving twi, but I am currently checking one out that I may. Except it's not exactly a church, it's a synagogue for Reform Jews. I picked it after much reading and then deciding I liked the moral values. I have gone once so far and liked the people as well. I will go a few more times and if I still like it, I will probaby bring my kids too.
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johniam
EWB: Lot of background info for why I picked where I am. Got kicked out of TWI in '94 for standing up to them about why some members of my family could go to fellowship and others couldn't. The thing that scared me the most about leaving was habit (18 yrs) plus one liners like that your committment should be beyond your lifetime, you're a "dog soldier", you're supposed to be "salted", etc.
So for 9 months after leaving I didn't want to go to any church or fellowship. Part of me said "I'm FREE!", but another part said "I wonder how the devil's going to kill me?" So I basically walked through the open doors I was comfortable with. This led to 4 different way spinoffs and a Presbyterian church.
I currently attend fellowships associated with John Hendricks. He's got his head screwed on straight. He doesn't see devil spirits everywhere. I like being free. At age 49 I think I can decide for myself what activities to be interested in, what music to listen to, etc. The fellowship I go to does not violate this.
Other than that, I didn't spend 18 yrs in TWI because I have a problem with home based fellowships, so that had a role in why I still go to them, but I don't rule out ever going to a church again either.
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Radar OReilly
Abi,
In the past few months I have found myself in contact with a group of folks here in my town that are all into the "messianic jewish" movement. I have met their Rabbi's and the Reformed Rabbi and they are a great bunch of folks just trying to do what they feel God wants them to do.
Overall, I enjoy them, and I enjoy our discussions and exchanges of thoughts. The one area I am very concerned about with them is an area that you and I both experienced in twi. These folks are fundamentalist bible thumpers in a way that I completely understand, having been there myself.
They reject things like Valentine's day, calling it Sweet Hearts Day. They don't celebrate Chrismas even though they are Christians, as a matter of fact Christmas is thought of and considered almost exactly as it was to twi. My girlfriend's fiance broke up with her briefly because she isn't as "spiritual" as he is because she wasn't attending the single woman's study group regularly...are you following my drift? You and I have discussed that man...he is running for the state attorney general in the state I live in.
I hope your group is different. I certainly know that you are one smart cookie. Just keep your antenna up and tuned.
Radar
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Abigail
Radar,
There are some very fundamentalist Messianics out there. The synagogue I am checking out is not Messianic at all, they are simply Reform Jews. This basically means their focus is more on community and character than trying to define God (which by definition is undefineable) or trying to force rules upon people.
They have two services, one on Friday nights (which I have not attended yet, because it starts so late) which is entirely in English. They have another on Saturday mornings which is more traditional and mostly in Hebrew for the more elderly folks.
After the Saturday service, they have a huge brunch. Last week it was bagels and herring (I had to work hard at not laughing at all the stereotypes).
:)-->
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CoolWaters
Hmmmm! What a question!
Immediately after leaving twi I chose Apostolic churches because they operate the "gifts" in a fairly orderly fashion. Then I found out they were trinitarian.
Then followed several years of running loosely organized home fellowships. That became mundane and without much fruit.
For a few years after that, we didn't go anywhere for church and/or fellowship. That got lonely.
One day we were convinced to attend a Vineyard church. We stayed there for several months while we learned more about how deeply twi had imprinted our brains and our understanding. That church was too far out of town for us (nearly 2 hours away).
We hosted home fellowships here and there again. By then, however, I was in real doubt about the validity of home fellowships.
Then we began attending a new church some family friends opened. It took us nearly 4 years before we realized that they were nothing more than a twi offshoot...even involved in a bigger offshoot. I was M&A from that church.
Part of the reason for M&A was that I had begun to embrace mainstream church doctrines. Particularly the idea that Jesus is present and is with us always. Also, I embraced the need for ritual. So I got baptized in and joined a United Methodist Church. I got too deeply involved with the church to appreciate it as a house of worship any longer.
By then I was thoroughly disillusioned with christianity. This was followed by some dreams and some visions.
Now I am happy to praise, worship, serve and practice all by own self. It clears the lines of communication between me and the Universe.
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Sasquatch
Cookie and I have been attending a local Vineyard church since last July. We feel that we have finally found a good home.
There is quite a bit of doctrine that is taught contrary to what we learned in the Ohio cult but that's okay because we are trying to relearn what we know about God.
There are some things that I disagree on but like I said, I am willing to relearn so I don't argue any of it.
The music there is TREMENDOUS! We have so many seasoned musicians there who truly love God and his people and love to bless us with some excellent worship songs.
I have also started going to one of their small groups that they call kinships. We meet in someone's home, but it is a 180 from what we were used to in that damnable cult in Ohio
:)-->
We still sing songs (w/hearts for God) and pray for one another but it is so much more genuine then before. I love it!
God has been so good to us, so "THANK YOU GOD!" Just since January we have had over 30 people become Christians in church. That is an amazing figure. The Spirit is defintely moving. We've had to expand to 3 services on Sundays to handle the influx of vistors and new regular attendees. These are exciting times!
Peace,
Sasquatch
Here is our Chuch's site
(edited 'cuz I forgot Cookie used to be Grapeape but Paw asked her if she could pick a differnt name because I guess there was a naughty poster on this site prior to us joining who had that name and we didn't want to be associated with it so hence the name change)
[This message was edited by Sasquatch on March 23, 2004 at 19:29.]
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Bramble
I hesitated to answer this, since the originator wanted Christain stories, but I've felt like hanging around this place for awhile, still processing my waydaze, I guess. So I'll spill.
I chose not to have a church home a couple years ago.
When I left the way, I got involved--within months--with an off shoot.In this particular group my family seemed to be seen as a resource to be mined, immediately, like our second 'twig.' Our house for 'twigs', our muscle for various believers who were moving etc, all very instant, could we do a teaching? And think about a children's fellowship? Before we had time to get to know anyone, or adjust. We were generic believers, plug us into the machine! It was wierd and hectic. We left, with somewhat bad feelings on the both sides, I might add.
So I did nothing for a long time. Watched some TV preachers, read library books. . .Eventually I started dropping in on a few churches, and sent the kids to a youth group one evening a week, one that several of their friends went too.
Oldest only went twice, didn't like their put down of Harry Potter. The other two got super involved.
About three months later I started hearing lots of ugly stuff from them.Accusations--"You're not a Christian!" type stuff. A neighborhood kid they quit playing with because he didn't believe in God--this was a nice kid they'd had hours of uncomplicated play fun with.
It was chilling. DH and I remembered all the family crap we caused for our parents, pretty much dumping our earthly families for years to 'Move the Word.'
I took them out, put them in sports. I figured I'd find a fun but less 'exclusive' youth group.
DH by this time had become agnostic, and wanted nothing to do with church or fellowships. Our ex way contacts weren't really friends, some of them were dealing with very serious issues, and people we knew who left around the POP time were really into PFAL doctrine, still, and still looking for God's now true ministry.
As for me, my interest in the Bible just evaporated, over time, til the interest ceased to exist at all.
I did give church one more try, in a liberal mainstream church, though by this time I'd found the goddess movement via the net and books, which I found had great meaning for me. In my teens I had been a little involved in witchcraft, but back then resources and other people were very hard to find. Not so now, the small town I lived in had 3 new age stores, the internet is filled with info. . .
I wasn't ready to step away from Christianity, though. I was always a good girl, y'know? So, church.
The church was nice, friendly. It did believe in Hell, and my kids who had been so religious did hear about it from their elderly Sunday school teacher,arg, and I knew they were bothered by all that. But for me, I was just acting a part. I realized I believed very little.
I was asked to head up a teen group. On the one hand, I could teach what I liked. On the other hand, I knew I had no business teaching a catachism class, since I didn't believe many of the tenents of the faith. I thought about it for a week, then excused myself.Soon after, my job required me to work weekends for several months, and church became a thing of the past.
I have some involvement with the local pagan community, but only as much as I desire, attend an open circle or seminar put on by a Wicca group now and then...The seminars are free, except for books, if they require one, and I am never pressured to join anything or get more involved, since wiccans think the seeker needs to be the one to ask. Met a couple of ladies I consider friends( though not real close friends) that I meet for coffee now and then. For me, this is not a group or family activity, it is private and personal, and enriches my life.
I have no desire--nor do I believe in--being an 'ambassador' for my faith, or witnessing the greatness that is my beliefs to persuade others to join me. I have no problem, though, explaining what might be a more realistic view on wiccan/witch/pagan issues, as I know it(I'm no expert). I find the amount of ignorance a little shocking, and amusing, too. In fact I believe, like many pagans, that to try to sway someone to you own path can actually keep them from finding their true path, and that is doing harm.
So, this is where I am for now, don't know what the future will be. I can't analize it and say why I'm here, and not there. It's just the way it is!
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dmiller
Radar -- That thing about holidays you mentioned. At Beth Yeshua (the Messianic church I went to for a while), they also reject "traditional" holidays as those "ordained by man" and not by God.
They do however, observe all the feasts found in the Old Testament, since God instituted them. All are welcome there, but one has to believe EXACTLY as they do to become a member.
At Beth Yeshua, they never bothered to rename holidays, they just ignored them. Last 4th of July fell on a Friday, they held service and bible study as usual (Friday night), but most did go see the fireworks after!
:D-->
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Trefor Heywood
I tried returning to Anglicanism, I tried Roman Cahtolicism, I even had a try at Mormonism but none took.
I think I have become too illusioned with institutional christianity and given that I would want something gay accepting and affirming also and where I am located this somewhat limits my choices. I would give the Metropolitan Community Church a go but the nearest is 100 miles away.
So like Cool Waters I worship individually and that way I have to conform to no man.
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Tom Strange
I find that even after being "out" for more than 20 years I still can't attend a 'service' without thinking of the ways it differs from what I was taught in TWI...
however, one thing I do is try to look beyond that and focus on the love the church (not just the minister or staff, but the congregation) shows... by word AND deed...
I also still can't pass some of these monolithic buildings without thinking it's a little bit of overkill, wondering what kind of message they're really trying to send (although that probably doesn't have anything to do with 'way thinking')... I just prefer to look on the value to the community, regardless of building size...
that said, I don't attend any church regularly, I go occasionally if a family memeber or friend invites me and I feel like going...
I do find myself always wanting to go inside to see "what's up" at the small, one big room, country churches though... ahh simplicity and love...
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simpatico
I didn't choose a church of any kind, and will only really enter one for reasons other than worship.
To see the architecture, a wedding that sort of thing.
I have decided to be true to myself, and except the fact that the thing that kept me for so long in "the way" was some kind of replacement for "community" the Tribe.
I do believe in a higher power, though it does not require participation in a group.
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Radar OReilly
E.W.
About a year ago...a small plot of land (about 1/2 acre x 1/2 acre) not far from my house became the church building for a small church. It looked cute, well maintained, small, and I have to drive right by it to get into and out of the small lake neighborhood that I live in. I thought to myself...on my multiple trips by it daily...."wow, that seems cool."
I cannot get to my house without going by it. I had almost convinced myself to stop in there and find out about them. I have been out of twi for 4 years and as of yet have had no interest in any sort of church experience. I thought...wow...maybe this could be it? Maybe this could be a little place that I could go...fellowship with folks.....and then work myself back into a church filled environment."
Then, one day I went by on a Sunday morning.....the "Trustee" parking lot had about 4 high dollar vehicles parked there (at least 40K each) and the rest of the cars are maybe.....15K to 25K, nicely kept, but none new, none spectacular. Just mini vans and nice family cars.
I realized right then and there...THIS IS JUST A FREAKING CULT. The leaders are living high on someone's hog......and the guy driving the 91 chrysler mini van is paying the car payments on that lexus.
It has never crossed my mind to go to any kind of a church since then.
Radar
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excathedra
i like groucho's church
:)-->
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E. W. Bullinger
Dear Everyone:
After reading my first post again I see that I did not really ask my question correctly. My intention was to ask about the thought processes of how people chose their present church. Fortunately almost everyone gave me helpful answers to my not accurately worded question. Thanks for all of your posts!
EWB
Dear Dmiller:
I too think that I would be happiest in an "offshoot", but like you I am hours from the closest fellowship. I really do miss the feelings of comradery that I felt in the Way.
Dear Ex10:
What an interesting group of churches that you have rubbed shoulders with! I am an [amateur] musician (like your husband). However this church that I go to almost exclusively plays classical music at services. After three years of attending I can differentiate between Bach/Beethoven/Handel/Hayden/Palestina/Purcell.
P.S. thanks for the heads up about Groucho.
Dear Wrestle Not:
Thanks for the scripture quote. One reason I started going to churches was because I knew that I needed fellowship with other Believers.
Dear Abigail:
Interesting insight about the synagogue. My family wants me to go back to Roman catholic church, but I find all of the extra biblical tradition to be distracting. I expect that you would be learning a lot of great old testament stuff. Our minister just finished a three year sermon series based on the book of Exodus. There is so much learning in a lot of the details of the tabernacle.
Dear Johnny I am:
I was M/A in 95. One of my big problems with many of the churches I went to was because I wanted to fellowship with people who were committed. It was so disappointing to meet people who believed "anything goes" when it came to spiritual matters. This is one area where I think the Way ministry was correct. Too bad there was so much pharisaical thinking with all of the micro-management of our lives.
Dear Cool Waters:
I was sorry to hear that you were M/A from the offshoot. A lot of the local old Way people go to a nondenominational charismatic church. They have a fun service with lots of music and enthusiasm, but the minster plays it "fast and loose" with the scriptures. Yet it is exciting to go to a church where so many are seeing real deliverance in their lives.
Dear Sasquatch:
Your church does sound exciting! With all of the growth they are experiencing I will bet that your ministers are preaching the bible.
Dear Bramble:
I was sorry to hear that you felt "used" by your fellowship leader. I also appreciated your input. While you do not have a ‘christian' story you bring up what some folks go through after they leave the Way. I also liked your candor in how you handled yourself.
Dear Trefor:
Mormonism? It sounds like there is a good story in there somewhere!
Dear Tom Strange:
By the way.....is there a story with how you chose your handle? You bring up a good point as to the kind of message these large, ornate buildings give off to people passing by.
Dear Radar:
One thing that I do like about my church is that since it is a major denomination there are watchdogs to make sure that money is spent approriatly.
Dear Exie:
How are you doing? Haven't spoken with you in a while.
EWB
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excathedra
i'm fine and you ? i love you
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Abigail
Sasquatch - I went to a Vineyard for a time after leaving TWI. In fact, the minister knew of TWI. He had a roommate who made it his "life mission" to help people get out. He was very nice and never pushy. I loved the music and freedom there - the minister did not force his doctrine on anyone. If there were disagreements over beliefs, his response was God worked in all of us differently and it was our responsibility to work it out with God what we beleived. I quit going because I just wasn't ready to get close and comfy with a bunch of "religious" people yet.
*****
E.W.,
Not having been raised Catholic, it is a bit difficult for me to relate to that, though I understand what you are saying. I actually like the traditions and ritual, but see them as symbolic not literal. And I like having the freedom to light the candles on Friday night or not. I don't feel like I have to be absolutely consistent about the rituals because this is all they are. But they are peaceful and pleasant when I feel like doing it.
The old testament teachings are interesting. I was more familiar with the OT than the new when I joined TWI anyway. Some of it fits with what we learned and some is different. BUT, with the Jewish religion - the Talmud is not just the OT. It is the OT and hundreds upon hundreds of years of rabbinical commentary to explain what the stuff means. And there is a lot of oral tradition which is believed to have been passed down since "The Beginning". It really is fascinating. Yet, all of it is about how we are supposed to do "good deeds", help others, be of good character. Also woven into that is the understanding we are human and imperfect.
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jen-o
EW, interesting question.
i was "evicted" from twi in 97...didn't go to any church for quite a while...
then my hairdresser mentioned the "not forsaking the assembling of yourselves" scripture and i thought maybe i should look around.
so bout 1999...i started church hopping...it was really a lot of fun to see what different folks were up to...checked out CES, CFF, a CG group, and an old way home fellowship. Then i checked out a baptist church, roman catholic mass, 4-square, assembly of God, and all kinds of other denominations and independent non-denominational churches.
for a while, i was going to 3 different churches regularly...the 4 square, the assembly of God (on saturday night) and an interdenominational church....never did officially "join" anything.
currently, my 3 kids and i are attending the interdenominational church...which is 5 minutes from my house. I didn't really pick it though. my oldest son felt the most strongly about going there...it is a great church...practical teachings based on the bible and the music is AWESOME!
i've liked a lot of the churches, the music, the messages, and the people.
i don't know....it's just FUN!
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imbus
Dear EW, Good question.
I attend a lot of places. My favorite is a Methodist church in Phionex.Every time I go there I am awe struck by the love that is diplayed by the minister and unity of the congrgation. It is very deversified and you can since no judgement or ridicule, just warm acceptance. They too,like ex's church, is very community minded. Has groups to suit every need. They're handeling of the Bible is very simplistic and understanably practicle. It puts me in a child like frame of mind with all my defenses down.
The other place is an Episcapal bible study. Father Charles is a genusis with the historical and intellectual background to the bible. He privatly has helped me with Way Brain. My therapist suggested meeting with him.
About the Methoist church...A gay therapist at work was looking for a church and found this one. She and her girlfriend invited me knowing my spiritual abuse hx. It has meet my most basic and yet most important need...Sweet fellowship.
A very good question... thanks!
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