Hmm...if there was one on me, I didn't see it. Sounds a bit like the files spy groups keep on their citizens. Um...for only good reasons, of course. ;-)
Was it just one with the highlights or did they keep details?
Wow, that's pretty scary. To have that kind of documentation at your fingertips means it was probably planned for some time. Unless they just wrote it down from memory.
When I was a TC, I do remember being asked to recount situations that happened with people in my twig in as much detail as possible. Now I think I know why. :-( We had one lady, for example, that had a son who was a teen and a bit rowdy. Good kid, really, just 14 and hormonal. Good student, polite, never got into trouble just had long hair and played in a rock band. God forbid! Anyhoo...the local LC eventually drove them away while trying to get this "boy to shape up." The last time I saw the poor woman was in my house crying that she tried to do everything to please this jerk but gave up. Never saw her again. I wasn't there for any of her "counseling" sessions with the LC but I bet I had a hand in helping to drive her out. It's hard not to be ashamed by not figuring out what was going on. I really though they just wanted to help her. It wasn't until I saw the pain in her face that night that it became clear she was just broken by the experience.
It wasn't the 3X 5 cards out on the field. But our "fellowship coordinators" kept files in TWI2 on each family and person in their fellowship. Does anyone who is still in remember this or have they put this aside now?
I know when I had my "counseling session" with TC and BC that this file was brought out listing my "sins" and what not. I never actually got to read my file, but they had it out and read from it.
I didn't see any 3x5 cards but the branch leaders in a certain state always knew verbatim anything I had said to anyone and then they would repeat it back to me and construe everything I said as really evil, when actually I was just being a fairly normal human being.
I don't know anything about any 3x5 cards from being in-rez. This must have been a later development. Even when I was twig coord. etc, in-rez, I never filled out any cards on anybody, or any such thing. Or had anybody read cards to me.
I do remember one incident where a newbie corps girl in my twig discovered she was pg after arriving at Emporia. I encouraged her to talk to a corps coordinator, which she did. She ended up leaving Emporia and marrying her boyfriend, which I thought was a very good idea at the time.
I wonder how much information is legal for a church to maintain about it's members?
The Way isn't a "church" supposedly, and have no members.
The average fellowship coordinator is in an exofficio capacity. They're probably not being paid, but they do represent the Way, it's policies and guidelines.
Paid employees are responsible to and for the organization.
Sooooo, if a fellowship is still in a self-governing, self-propogating and self-financing status and it's all just folks doing what folks do, I wonder how that all fits? They're not technically "independent" because to be a fellowship coordinator, you can't offer or provide non-sanctioned Way materials, teachings or activities. There is a level of "faithfulness" that's required. They can't run other churches or ministries classes instead of The Way's. Or can they?
I guess what I'm getting at is that if the FC is actually bound to an agreement to only offer and present Way materials, calendared events, etc. in order to be a Way FC, their relationship to the Way seems like it would fall more in to a formal capacity. They COULD do whatever they want, but they DON'T in order to maintain their status with the Way.
If a person in a formal capacity for a church keeps detailed information about another person, without their knowledge or permission for the purpose of "counselling" them, is that legal? Is it legal if they publically make the private information known, such as when a person leaves the Way and negative facts are distributed?
[This message was edited by socks on March 16, 2004 at 13:36.]
According to the Way's own site, their classes are for those who "faithfully" attend their fellowships and who desire to know, etc. To me that implies a committment beyond interest and desire, and carries over to measurable activity. What's "faithfully" reall mean?
IMO The Way has played fast and loose with this for many years, leaving it up to anyone who wants to to shoot their mouth off about anyone or anything without consideration to what their moral, ethical and "spiritual" responsibilities are. They've back pedalled more times than you can count. Didn't know, didn't see, didn't say, etc. etc.
So if nobody knows nuttin' and everything's just SWELL, who's running the ship when you find out things have gone wrong?
Wordwolf, I agree. The TC holds a great deal of authority and responsibility in The Way. TWI doesn't call them employees, but there are clear expectations and if they're not met, they're "fired", relieved of duty, terminated.
If I volunteered for something, say an activity for XYZ charity...and in the course of volunteering they asked me to do something that was...let's say harmful to another person....and I said no, and they said then you can't volunteer for us....and so I went ahead and did that it....I would think that I and the charity would be liable for what I did.
Somebody somewhere started all this 3X5, record keeping crap. If any Way leader knew about it and either ignored it or encouraged it, and harm came from it - how could they be free from
responsibility?
That's the trouble with the Way. They're there and taking credit if something they like goes right, but if it goes wrong they say it's your fault, or they didn't know.
For an organization that sells "power" and "abundance" there's sure a lot they don't know about. People doing all kinds of things, but they don't know nuttin'. Or they did and couldn't do anything about it.
I once heard a wc grad talking about being sick during training and being required every day to submit an update on her condition by a certain time on a 3x5 card until she was told it was no longer necessary.
She was really sick - really, really sick - and couldn't find a 3x5 card so she turned her update in on a 4x6 card.
She was dragged in front of the whole group at lunchtime for an a$$ chewing for being disobedient and stupid. She was so sick she didn't care in the least, but she never did forget it.
So maybe her 3x5 cards went straight into her file they were keeping on her.
When I saw the title "3x5 cards", I thought of those stupid witnessing cards. I remember being given several when we went door-to-door or mall witnessing. We had a goal to bring back several contacts. We also had a goal to undershepard one person through the WAP series. Now when I think about it, why in the world did I think I could do God's job? If people are called, they are called. And that is whether I go witnessing or not. I've had way more opportunities to minister to people since leaving, and I've never knocked on a door or interrupted someone while they were shopping.
I remember 3x5 cards as something good. In a couple of situations we were given a card, told to write our name one it then pass it to the person on the right (or left). We each wrote something nice about the person named on the card. By the time your card got back around to you, you had a major "love" note from each person in the group. This was during the late 70's early 80's. When were the negie cards used?
insurgent...now, how could they cram that huge 4x6 card into the file without first cutting it into an immaculate 3 x 5 piece... probably using straight edges and other anal props to cut it??? ;)-->
MT...I remember doing stuff like that too...but, that's not what this was.
Both imbus and I were devestated by them. I'm sure their are other stories...I would love an old exway come in here and chime in on their orders to write them up.
Keeping 3x5 cards or other type files on people has been a long-time habit of TWI, especially on The Way Corps. What do you think your Way Corps File held BEFORE they returned it to you?
It was purged of any "negative" stuff before they gave it back.
3x5 cards, hhuuuuuum I seem to remember something about them. I went to John Lynns office and sat there in shock as my life was been read from a 3x5 card."You said this , you did that ,you didn't do this and where were you and why where you late." I was not kicked out of the corps but put on a 2wk. probationary period. I was releived of my job responcibility in the Bianchi Apt. and put in refinishing where i could do no harm. That was the start of a romantic relationship with leadership. I was screwed no matter what I did... right or wrong.
Wacky i think the 3x5 cards where Emporia specific. A meanspirited directive given by leadership to teach some 13th corps to be *ssh*les and a means to kill any free thinking 15th from moving on or upward.I think you said it well on the phone.The corps produced two types of people,codependents(can't think for yourself) and control freaks. Both mind sets are very screwed up and takes a while to get the dodo out of your life.
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JustThinking
Hmm...if there was one on me, I didn't see it. Sounds a bit like the files spy groups keep on their citizens. Um...for only good reasons, of course. ;-)
Was it just one with the highlights or did they keep details?
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Wacky Funster
It was details JT...
one of them had a quote of what I said...I remember it pretty vividly because I believed it so deeply...
basically: I don't care who says what...if it's not from the word, I don't care who says it and I'll listen to god first rather than man.
They called this "disobedience".
Another time the branch leader...her name was Brenda and I can't stand her lieness to this day...claimed I was NOT at a meeting that I WAS at...
These were on the 2 3 x 5 file cards that jal pulled out as reasons why he kicked me outta the corps.
this was the corps that was in the year that vpw died...
...a very screwed up time...but all the more reason to be more loving ...dontcha think?
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JustThinking
Wacky,
Wow, that's pretty scary. To have that kind of documentation at your fingertips means it was probably planned for some time. Unless they just wrote it down from memory.
When I was a TC, I do remember being asked to recount situations that happened with people in my twig in as much detail as possible. Now I think I know why. :-( We had one lady, for example, that had a son who was a teen and a bit rowdy. Good kid, really, just 14 and hormonal. Good student, polite, never got into trouble just had long hair and played in a rock band. God forbid! Anyhoo...the local LC eventually drove them away while trying to get this "boy to shape up." The last time I saw the poor woman was in my house crying that she tried to do everything to please this jerk but gave up. Never saw her again. I wasn't there for any of her "counseling" sessions with the LC but I bet I had a hand in helping to drive her out. It's hard not to be ashamed by not figuring out what was going on. I really though they just wanted to help her. It wasn't until I saw the pain in her face that night that it became clear she was just broken by the experience.
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Jim
Fsking nazis.
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Wacky Funster
I know there are other people out there that must remember this.
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outofdafog
It wasn't the 3X 5 cards out on the field. But our "fellowship coordinators" kept files in TWI2 on each family and person in their fellowship. Does anyone who is still in remember this or have they put this aside now?
I know when I had my "counseling session" with TC and BC that this file was brought out listing my "sins" and what not. I never actually got to read my file, but they had it out and read from it.
outofdafog
Thats my story and I am sticking to it.
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outofdafog
Oh and by the way, I got up and walked out on them and then was marked and avoided.
outofdafog
Thats my story and I am sticking to it.
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outandabout
I didn't see any 3x5 cards but the branch leaders in a certain state always knew verbatim anything I had said to anyone and then they would repeat it back to me and construe everything I said as really evil, when actually I was just being a fairly normal human being.
I guess they had mental 3x5 cards.
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ex10
I don't know anything about any 3x5 cards from being in-rez. This must have been a later development. Even when I was twig coord. etc, in-rez, I never filled out any cards on anybody, or any such thing. Or had anybody read cards to me.
I do remember one incident where a newbie corps girl in my twig discovered she was pg after arriving at Emporia. I encouraged her to talk to a corps coordinator, which she did. She ended up leaving Emporia and marrying her boyfriend, which I thought was a very good idea at the time.
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socks
Hmmmm, 3 X 5 cards. Think what they can do with computers.
Spreadsheets. Databases.
Reports.
I was lost in the deep and darkest night. No direction, not a single hope in sight
When I saw a fire burning brightly through the storm that raged above
In the shadows of your warm and tender love.
Chris Rea
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Dot Matrix
They probably do.
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socks
Hmmm, wouldn't be surprised!
I wonder how much information is legal for a church to maintain about it's members?
The Way isn't a "church" supposedly, and have no members.
The average fellowship coordinator is in an exofficio capacity. They're probably not being paid, but they do represent the Way, it's policies and guidelines.
Paid employees are responsible to and for the organization.
Sooooo, if a fellowship is still in a self-governing, self-propogating and self-financing status and it's all just folks doing what folks do, I wonder how that all fits? They're not technically "independent" because to be a fellowship coordinator, you can't offer or provide non-sanctioned Way materials, teachings or activities. There is a level of "faithfulness" that's required. They can't run other churches or ministries classes instead of The Way's. Or can they?
I guess what I'm getting at is that if the FC is actually bound to an agreement to only offer and present Way materials, calendared events, etc. in order to be a Way FC, their relationship to the Way seems like it would fall more in to a formal capacity. They COULD do whatever they want, but they DON'T in order to maintain their status with the Way.
If a person in a formal capacity for a church keeps detailed information about another person, without their knowledge or permission for the purpose of "counselling" them, is that legal? Is it legal if they publically make the private information known, such as when a person leaves the Way and negative facts are distributed?
[This message was edited by socks on March 16, 2004 at 13:36.]
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socks
According to the Way's own site, their classes are for those who "faithfully" attend their fellowships and who desire to know, etc. To me that implies a committment beyond interest and desire, and carries over to measurable activity. What's "faithfully" reall mean?
IMO The Way has played fast and loose with this for many years, leaving it up to anyone who wants to to shoot their mouth off about anyone or anything without consideration to what their moral, ethical and "spiritual" responsibilities are. They've back pedalled more times than you can count. Didn't know, didn't see, didn't say, etc. etc.
So if nobody knows nuttin' and everything's just SWELL, who's running the ship when you find out things have gone wrong?
I guess the answer of choice is "NOT ME!!"
;)-->
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WordWolf
Last I heard,
twi was now using the term "church" with outsiders
(i.e., tell them we're a church) and on paperwork,
but does NOT use it when talking amongst innies.
FCs (TCs, whatever abbreviation you would like to use) are more than
required simply to not offer non-twi materials and classes. They are
required to actively promote/push twi materials while disparaging
all Christians external to twi, and are required to participate in
phone hook-ups, promote and participate in the running of classes
locally, and so on, and is expected to carry all the expenses of
same out-of-pocket, which is NOT counted towards the required
"donation" aka "abundant sharing", which is required not only to
prevent shunning by the organization (since you supposedly can't
be a "member"), but to keep God on your good side, lest He withdraw
all His protection from you and have horrible things happen in your
life as a consequence.
A TC has financial responsibilities required of him/her, and actively
works, without pay, promoting twi while denigrating anyone else.
twi may not call that an "employee", but there ARE legal obligations.
There is a formal obligation, since a tc violating these
"nonexistent" rules will be subject to sanctions and expulsion.
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socks
Wordwolf, I agree. The TC holds a great deal of authority and responsibility in The Way. TWI doesn't call them employees, but there are clear expectations and if they're not met, they're "fired", relieved of duty, terminated.
If I volunteered for something, say an activity for XYZ charity...and in the course of volunteering they asked me to do something that was...let's say harmful to another person....and I said no, and they said then you can't volunteer for us....and so I went ahead and did that it....I would think that I and the charity would be liable for what I did.
Somebody somewhere started all this 3X5, record keeping crap. If any Way leader knew about it and either ignored it or encouraged it, and harm came from it - how could they be free from
responsibility?
That's the trouble with the Way. They're there and taking credit if something they like goes right, but if it goes wrong they say it's your fault, or they didn't know.
For an organization that sells "power" and "abundance" there's sure a lot they don't know about. People doing all kinds of things, but they don't know nuttin'. Or they did and couldn't do anything about it.
Not much power in that.
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insurgent
I once heard a wc grad talking about being sick during training and being required every day to submit an update on her condition by a certain time on a 3x5 card until she was told it was no longer necessary.
She was really sick - really, really sick - and couldn't find a 3x5 card so she turned her update in on a 4x6 card.
She was dragged in front of the whole group at lunchtime for an a$$ chewing for being disobedient and stupid. She was so sick she didn't care in the least, but she never did forget it.
So maybe her 3x5 cards went straight into her file they were keeping on her.
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Nottawayfer
When I saw the title "3x5 cards", I thought of those stupid witnessing cards. I remember being given several when we went door-to-door or mall witnessing. We had a goal to bring back several contacts. We also had a goal to undershepard one person through the WAP series. Now when I think about it, why in the world did I think I could do God's job? If people are called, they are called. And that is whether I go witnessing or not. I've had way more opportunities to minister to people since leaving, and I've never knocked on a door or interrupted someone while they were shopping.
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MTgal
I remember 3x5 cards as something good. In a couple of situations we were given a card, told to write our name one it then pass it to the person on the right (or left). We each wrote something nice about the person named on the card. By the time your card got back around to you, you had a major "love" note from each person in the group. This was during the late 70's early 80's. When were the negie cards used?
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Wacky Funster
insurgent...now, how could they cram that huge 4x6 card into the file
without first cutting it into an immaculate 3 x 5 piece... probably using straight edges and other anal props to cut it??? 
;)-->
MT...I remember doing stuff like that too...but, that's not what this was.
Both imbus and I were devestated by them. I'm sure their are other stories...I would love an old exway come in here and chime in on their orders to write them up.
It's quite damning.
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Catcup
Keeping 3x5 cards or other type files on people has been a long-time habit of TWI, especially on The Way Corps. What do you think your Way Corps File held BEFORE they returned it to you?
It was purged of any "negative" stuff before they gave it back.
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excathedra
i don't know if i got mine
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Tom Strange
heck... I didn't know they were keeping 3x5 cards on us back then... but I'm keeping one on each of you!!!!
:D-->
(if they had one on me it probably said "nods off a lot in class and looks f'ing bored.")
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excathedra
that's so funny TS drool dribble
on ludewig's 3x5 .... examines coffee cans for long butts .... or greets people with a peace sign / scissor like motion....
whenever i picture him walking up to me all i can see is those 2 fingers asking if he could have a smoke. i love that guy
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imbus
3x5 cards, hhuuuuuum I seem to remember something about them. I went to John Lynns office and sat there in shock as my life was been read from a 3x5 card."You said this , you did that ,you didn't do this and where were you and why where you late." I was not kicked out of the corps but put on a 2wk. probationary period. I was releived of my job responcibility in the Bianchi Apt. and put in refinishing where i could do no harm. That was the start of a romantic relationship with leadership. I was screwed no matter what I did... right or wrong.
Wacky i think the 3x5 cards where Emporia specific. A meanspirited directive given by leadership to teach some 13th corps to be *ssh*les and a means to kill any free thinking 15th from moving on or upward.I think you said it well on the phone.The corps produced two types of people,codependents(can't think for yourself) and control freaks. Both mind sets are very screwed up and takes a while to get the dodo out of your life.
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