Your post reminds me of Mike. I believe his conscience is seared and he no longer has the abilty to process information. He has lived in la-la land so long, slinging his message of PFAL will save the world that he cannot recognize anything else.
I think Mj may be holding on by a "thread" herself and the only way she is able to live is to remind herself of forgiveness, sometimes I think she is speaking in an effort to save herself.
We can become salesmen of what worked in "our" lives and discontinue HEARING the other person. I do not see her as trying to be discourteous but being discourteous none-the-less becasue she tries to sell her brand of recovery as the "only" way to recovery.
She is not a bad person (and you did NOT suggest she was), she is just trying to live.
I sell what works for me -- as a suggestion not as a "must."
Her message is annoying but it is all she has, she is offering the only thing that has worked for her. She just needs to know when to back off. Sometimes "Backing off" is LOVE.
quote: I think Mj may be holding on by a "thread" herself and the only way she is able to live is to remind herself of forgiveness, sometimes I think she is speaking in an effort to save herself.
WEll said--well said
we each cope in our way
COOLWATERS--Thanks for the memOries--I mean that seriously --as I read you post I was thinking of some of the silly things we did to tweak leaderships nose.
I also want to thank you for refreashing my memories on many points--I still face questions from still angry adult children.
It is clear that TWI had leverage--bad people who were facing MANDATORY sentancing laws somehow became immune :(-->
I am hear to say that peace and happiness are with me--but the memories are for our LEARNING --lest we forget
I've learned a lot about the serious abuse issues since I've been at GreaseSpot cafe, and also answers about why it was a good ministry and why it wasn't. I never knew that so much was plagerized!! Which answers questions about confusing issues, how could it be good and bad at the same time. However, I wouldn't want to talk about abuse and plagerism all the time. I like the variety here, it is very healing.
(and all of my brothers and sisters that endured such pain):
My heart is truly with you all. Indeed, sometimes it seems easy to suggest or tell someone how they "should" deal with such trauma. Each of us finds our own road to healing in very unique ways and on varied timetables. I can only imagine how much you have endured. Having had a case of child molestation in my family, I can say that I have not, nor can I conceive of losing one bit of sleep over my disgust and revulsion toward the offender. Do I care what happens to him ? Not one bit. Do I feel sorry for him now that he is wheelchair bound and disabled ? Not for a second. However, what does cause me pain to this day is the memory that an unthinkable crime was taking place under our very noses. Two precious children had their innocence crushed and their lives altered forever by what took place...and all the love in the world cannot ever change what happened to them. Will I "come to terms" with this ? Perhaps...but I do not know. I can say that if my feelings toward this man are wrong, and if I stand before God Himself, I will admit to such feelings with no apology. Do I consider myself a victim because I will not "let go" of what happened ? Nope. As was said before, I will attempt to channel the anger and bitterness to do what I can so it doesn't happen again. To tap into those feelings and acknowledge them does give me a sense of power. Perhaps I can help someone else, give them a shoulder to lean on, and do what I can to see such abusers come to justice. It's all I can do. May you find some peace of mind in your own way and in your own time.
Thank you for your post. I am sorry you too were affected by this "crime". It does change who you are and what you will become.
Someone once said at an abuse center when they brought in a raped child -- Well, her future has just been altered, she has a 70% change of becoming addicted to drugs or alcohol, she will become promiscuous or overly prudish, her relationships will be disastrous as trust issues abound... This is just the first day of the disaster.
Beyond words it is sad. As a family, we did not find out about the abuse until my beloved niece began acting out (at the age of 21) in such a manner that she lost everything she had-her home, her husband, and her child. I wonder how she held on for 15 plus years before it all came to the surface. Having been through a similar situation to yours myself, someone who had never experienced it made the statement to me that the attackers could not take from me who I was...and even though it was said with love to me I had to respond that in a sense they did. A part of me was stolen and crushed and I would never ever be the same. Bruises heal, but crimes like these leave their mark as long as we are alive. Most of us learn to go on and become stronger, but the way is long and lonely at times. Good thing I'm not God---there would be a special place in hell for those guilty of such crimes. My forgiveness DOES have boundaries and I freely and unashamedly admit it.
Ya know I think perpetrators and their lawyers have made the word "victim” into something dirty.
Like to be a victim and heal at your own pace is dirty, socially unacceptable and wrong.
When did this happen? My sister said to me the other day -- you were a victim. Why should acknowledgement of that victimization be "dirty" or bring you shame?
Now, when one uses "I was a victim" to go and commit crimes then it does become the abuse excuse. But to recognize YOU WERE a victim and it was a situation you could not control can bring deliverance. Don't let the perpetrators, their lawyers or some x-cultist make you feel badly about being a victim.
I was on the phone today with a minister of a different church. We were talking about "victim" as well. It is not a bad thing to admit you were a victim. And even when you heal you will have always been a victim in that situation.
To realize you were a victim gets rid of the self blame and guilt that keeps you a victim, it is not neccessarily holding anger that keeps one a victim -- it is the guilt and blame of accepting responsibility for something you were NOT responsible for....
For instance, I felt like “if only” I did not go into the woods my life would have been different. I suffer with the affects of the attack because IF I AM RESPONSIBLE FOR GETTING ATTACKED THEN I DESERVE ALL OF THE CONSEQUENCES.
(consequences: fear, claustrophobia, difficulty at the dentist, difficulty breathing, panic, trust issues and the list goes on. If I am NOT a victim then I am resposible and if I am responsible then I brought it on myself, and if I brought it on myself, then I do not deserve to be set free, and if I do not deserve to be set free then I deserve to be in bondage, because I deserve the consequences of the attack because I should not have gone in the woods.... But placing blame where it needs to BE stops the guilt, blame and depression cycle.)
When I let go of the responsibility and ACCEPT that I was a victim, then I do not feel as though I have to accept all the ramifications of the attack that plagued me for years.
To accept that I was a victim then sets me free. THEN, I can tell the thoughts of defeat "get out of here. I was not to blame. I refuse to live with that responsibility. The perpetrator is guilty and the Perpetrator is to blame. I here and now refuse to accept the guilt and the blame anymore. I accept God’s love and healing because I deserve it – Jesus died to give me these things and I accept them!” That is the declaration of victory.
An illustration of that was in "Good Will Hunting" Will had thought all his abuse that happened to him was his fault. It was not any HATRED. It was the burden of the guilt. IT was not until Will faced off with the Doctor (Robin Williams) and the Doctor kept saying "It was not your fault" "IT was not your fault"
When it dawned on Will Hunting that is was not his fault then he was delivered.
It was not about the hatred. The bondage is about ACCEPTING responsibility that is NOT yours to accept.
So, to let these folks, who think victim is a dirty word, or that it is a sin to be a victim, wake up because they ARE WRONG. These people make it hard on a victim and KEEP them in BONDAGE with a guilt trip. They DO NOT HELP. To me, they bear an out and out lie and deception of the devil to keep God's people in bondage.
You do not have to let go of the anger -- let go of the guilt. You did nothing wrong. It happened to you. Not because of you.
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on March 17, 2004 at 20:38.]
"My forgiveness DOES have boundaries and I freely and unashamedly admit it."
P.S.
I did not see Samson being forgiving and blaming himself with all those he slay with the jawbone of an foot....
I did not see David say, "Yoo big boy, you hurt us and killed some of my people. I do not blame you, I do not hate you because it was our fault. We should not have been born..."
No, he zapped him in the head with a rock and God's blessing.
I did not see any forgiveness manifested when Annias and Saphira were struck down for lying about the amount of money they gave. The apostles just carried their dead a$$es out the door.
That minister and I talked about that today as well. He is familar with TWI.
I told him because I was afraid I caused it to happen as fear was negative believing...
He sure told me that was a lie.
Then, I said I think I am still afraid.
He then said, "Your problem is you think you cannot go to the Lord AFRAID because FEAR is negative believing. When you are negative believing you are out of fellowhip. So, you remain in your cycle of fear and condemnation. You feel you have to straighten up before you can go to God."
Then, he gave me these scriptures:
Psalm 34:4
I sought the Lord and he heard me and delivered me from all my fears.
He said, "they did not get rid of their fear first and then seek the Lord. the whole believing equals receiving thing ties into that. If you were afraid -- you were out of fellowship. If you were out of fellowship -- you had to repent of your sin. But you thought your sin was fear/negative believing.
So, you could not go to God until you were in fellowship. That whole believing thing can keep you away fron God. The WAY focused on portions of the Bible without exploring the whole.
In the psalm, clearly he was in fear (which we call negative believing) but God heard him and delivered him. God is not dependant on our "state" to hear us....
Psalm 34:4
I sought the Lord and he heard me and delivered me from all my fears.
Or
Psalms 56:3
When ever I am afraid I will trust in you.
So it is possible to TRUST in the LORD and be in fear. TWI taught you had to be in fellowhip (not fearing/negative) before you could trust. That is the opposite of this verse!
I went to the Temple and on the Prayer list I put Five names; R & S U, Loy Craig Martindale, Donna Martindale, And Rosalie Rivenbark--
Let us be clear, I didn't get all happy and joyous and fuzzy headed. I asked God not to hold their sin against them. I didn't reveal anything more than the names and I just handed them in and walked away.
DO I feel Better about the past? NOPE, the past is what it was.
I still can't recapture 81 birthdays; 17 Christmas', Thanksgivings, Easters etc.;6 proms; 3 first dates-----
I can't mend my daughters shattered heart-or see my grandchild- or erase my son's anger--
I have come to the point where the thoughts of those years no longer send me into a clenched jaw fury while scalding tears stream down my face and the migraine pounds in my head.
But I can say, that there will never come a day when the memories grow fuzzy or I forget what happened. There are posters here whose glib advice is to get on with life--
Getting on with life is relatively simple --as long as you're not dead life tends to get on all on it's own.
But trying to pretend it never happened, or really isn't that bad after time passes, is a fool's errand--Because sexual predation is the most vicious predation of all--
It is predation carried out in secret in broad daylight. It is a predation that relies on the fact that the human body is wired to respond to certain sensations in certain ways. It is employed by persons who use that knowledge to cause their victims to feel dirty and unclean and responsible because their bodies did respond. They then use that guilt to foster bonds of steel which make their victims acquiesce to even more abuse. They engender within their victims the endless questions and thoughts of “If only…, I I hadn’t… I shouldn’t…I should…., wasn’t strong enough…, good enough…..
They then stand before the courts of men and talk of their illness-their uncontrollable urges--turning themselves into victims of some unseen malady that explains away their guilt--leaving their victims not only with the guilt and shame that they already feel but with the knowledge that somehow or another their abuser really isn’t an abuser but as much a victim as them.
We as society need to stop this insanity--We need to stop allowing the predators in our midst, to blame their mothers and their childhoods, and their pasts and society for THEIR CHOICES. That’s right THEIR CHOICES.
Many a Married man has looked at a pretty woman, not his wife, and kept on walking--It takes a conscious decision to turn and follow her ,to buy her a drink, a conscious decision every step of the way. It takes conscious decisions every step of the way when you abuse and predate in way, shape or form.
No one grabbed them by the collar and made them do anything-- “I couldn’t stop myself “means “I wanted what I wanted.”
If by chance they have a mental defect that makes them incapable of understanding right from wrong or want to argue they are incapable of controlling their urges then them they need to be institutionalized permanently THE FIRST TIME THEY ARE CAUGHT AND CONVICTED to keep society safe.
We don’t hesitate to sentence murderers to life without parole or even the death penalty for the First offense-- but somehow the social workers amidst us (the same social workers by the by which claim that mothers ALWAYS KNOW) have convinced our judiciary that warm-touchy feely therapy is going to work while at the same time admitting a pedophile can NEVER BE CURED!
It is predation carried out in secret in broad daylight. It is a predation that relies on the fact that the human body is wired to respond to certain sensations in certain ways. It is employed by persons who use that knowledge to cause their victims to feel dirty and unclean and responsible because their bodies did respond. They then use that guilt to foster bonds of steel which make their victims acquiesce to even more abuse. They engender within their victims the endless questions and thoughts of “If only…, I I hadn’t… I shouldn’t…I should…., wasn’t strong enough…, good enough…..
They then stand before the courts of men and talk of their illness-their uncontrollable urges--turning themselves into victims of some unseen malady that explains away their guilt--leaving their victims not only with the guilt and shame that they already feel but with the knowledge that somehow or another their abuser really isn’t an abuser but as much a victim as them.
============================================
Mo, of all the text books I've read studying this disgust, of all the case studies I've cried over, of all the conversations I've had with highly qualified (?) individuals and therapists that treat these victims and the perps, I have not before read, seen or heard it put in a better way.
Your words being the reality, instead of the clouded over, cleaned up version that make it more palatable for an audience.
Refreshing to finally read a truth, a voice for these kids; all kids who have been trapped in this horror. For the kids who were raped by a perpetrator yesterday, molested by a trusted family member or friend last night and have to get up today, sit at the breakfast table with his/her attacker or see them across the street. On the bus or walking to school wondering if anyone will ever help them.
For the kid who told his/her story to the grownups, suffered through the process and one day step off the same bus only to see their attacker drive down the street again, sitting in the pew across the aisle,in the next childrens fellowship at a Way International event or sitting at the kitchen table again.
:(-->
[This message was edited by Shellon on March 18, 2004 at 5:17.]
Amen...and Amen. There are some very wise and healing words in this thread. Take heed. The truth should NEVER be discounted or hidden or forgotten. That is the only way abusers can be brought to light. The abusers can be ministers, grandfathers, aunts or uncles, folks you think you know, priests, or members "in good standing" in TWI. And just as society is now publically screaming in its outrage over abusers in the Catholic church (and rightfully so), any person, organization or group that has turned a blind eye and deaf ear to those who have been so horribly wronged is as guilty in the coverup as if they themselves had committed the crimes.
Some people have horrendous childhood experiences, and vow that they will never perpetuate the abuse. They become empathetic to the needs of others. Some never reconcile their past, and may become victims again. Some internalize their anger, and become depressed. There are probably other reactions to abuse, as well as combinations of these, as well.
But there is another reaction to abuse, based on a view that the world is a hostile place, and take what you can before they take from you, abuse who you can because they don't care about you. It is the realm of the personality disordered, the narcissist and the sociopath. They become very adept at playing the game, saying and doing many of the right things, so that they are not suspect. How many times does a neighbor of a mass murderer say, "But he was a nice man, so quiet, we never knew....?"
The face of evil is not like on the movie of the week: snarling, drooling, an evil glint in the eye. The face of evil is smiling, confident, but lying with impugnity. The face of evil is convinced he is entitled.
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washingtonweather
All of MJ's nicey nice is never gonna change the evil that was, is, and will be in TWI.
But, blindness to evil will perpetuate it.
It will cause one to not recognize it, and further even if it somehow becomes reconizable, desensitization occurs and one doesnt even care.
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Dot Matrix
ww- good to see you my dear!
Your post reminds me of Mike. I believe his conscience is seared and he no longer has the abilty to process information. He has lived in la-la land so long, slinging his message of PFAL will save the world that he cannot recognize anything else.
I think Mj may be holding on by a "thread" herself and the only way she is able to live is to remind herself of forgiveness, sometimes I think she is speaking in an effort to save herself.
We can become salesmen of what worked in "our" lives and discontinue HEARING the other person. I do not see her as trying to be discourteous but being discourteous none-the-less becasue she tries to sell her brand of recovery as the "only" way to recovery.
She is not a bad person (and you did NOT suggest she was), she is just trying to live.
I sell what works for me -- as a suggestion not as a "must."
Her message is annoying but it is all she has, she is offering the only thing that has worked for her. She just needs to know when to back off. Sometimes "Backing off" is LOVE.
That is IMO of course.
I agree with you:
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templelady
WEll said--well said
we each cope in our way
COOLWATERS--Thanks for the memOries--I mean that seriously --as I read you post I was thinking of some of the silly things we did to tweak leaderships nose.
I also want to thank you for refreashing my memories on many points--I still face questions from still angry adult children.
It is clear that TWI had leverage--bad people who were facing MANDATORY sentancing laws somehow became immune
:(-->
I am hear to say that peace and happiness are with me--but the memories are for our LEARNING --lest we forget
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Dot Matrix
CW
That report that TWI had on you-- well that makes me think the "birth to the corps" papers we had to write were just to give then something "on" us.
I used to think VPW only had them written to look for weak girls to force into sex, this makes the reason broader.
ESPECIALLY, if WE wrote the incriminating stuff ourselves..
Like:
As a teen there was excessive drinking, then took PFAL.
Boy, they had their bases covered. The evil just runs deeper and deeper.
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on March 17, 2004 at 12:03.]
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CircleGame
I've learned a lot about the serious abuse issues since I've been at GreaseSpot cafe, and also answers about why it was a good ministry and why it wasn't. I never knew that so much was plagerized!! Which answers questions about confusing issues, how could it be good and bad at the same time. However, I wouldn't want to talk about abuse and plagerism all the time. I like the variety here, it is very healing.
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way back in the 70s
Cool Waters, Mo, Cat, Dot:
(and all of my brothers and sisters that endured such pain):
My heart is truly with you all. Indeed, sometimes it seems easy to suggest or tell someone how they "should" deal with such trauma. Each of us finds our own road to healing in very unique ways and on varied timetables. I can only imagine how much you have endured. Having had a case of child molestation in my family, I can say that I have not, nor can I conceive of losing one bit of sleep over my disgust and revulsion toward the offender. Do I care what happens to him ? Not one bit. Do I feel sorry for him now that he is wheelchair bound and disabled ? Not for a second. However, what does cause me pain to this day is the memory that an unthinkable crime was taking place under our very noses. Two precious children had their innocence crushed and their lives altered forever by what took place...and all the love in the world cannot ever change what happened to them. Will I "come to terms" with this ? Perhaps...but I do not know. I can say that if my feelings toward this man are wrong, and if I stand before God Himself, I will admit to such feelings with no apology. Do I consider myself a victim because I will not "let go" of what happened ? Nope. As was said before, I will attempt to channel the anger and bitterness to do what I can so it doesn't happen again. To tap into those feelings and acknowledge them does give me a sense of power. Perhaps I can help someone else, give them a shoulder to lean on, and do what I can to see such abusers come to justice. It's all I can do. May you find some peace of mind in your own way and in your own time.
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Dot Matrix
Way back
Thank you for your post. I am sorry you too were affected by this "crime". It does change who you are and what you will become.
Someone once said at an abuse center when they brought in a raped child -- Well, her future has just been altered, she has a 70% change of becoming addicted to drugs or alcohol, she will become promiscuous or overly prudish, her relationships will be disastrous as trust issues abound... This is just the first day of the disaster.
Isn't that sad?
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way back in the 70s
Beyond words it is sad. As a family, we did not find out about the abuse until my beloved niece began acting out (at the age of 21) in such a manner that she lost everything she had-her home, her husband, and her child. I wonder how she held on for 15 plus years before it all came to the surface. Having been through a similar situation to yours myself, someone who had never experienced it made the statement to me that the attackers could not take from me who I was...and even though it was said with love to me I had to respond that in a sense they did. A part of me was stolen and crushed and I would never ever be the same. Bruises heal, but crimes like these leave their mark as long as we are alive. Most of us learn to go on and become stronger, but the way is long and lonely at times. Good thing I'm not God---there would be a special place in hell for those guilty of such crimes. My forgiveness DOES have boundaries and I freely and unashamedly admit it.
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Dot Matrix
Ya know I think perpetrators and their lawyers have made the word "victim” into something dirty.
Like to be a victim and heal at your own pace is dirty, socially unacceptable and wrong.
When did this happen? My sister said to me the other day -- you were a victim. Why should acknowledgement of that victimization be "dirty" or bring you shame?
Now, when one uses "I was a victim" to go and commit crimes then it does become the abuse excuse. But to recognize YOU WERE a victim and it was a situation you could not control can bring deliverance. Don't let the perpetrators, their lawyers or some x-cultist make you feel badly about being a victim.
I was on the phone today with a minister of a different church. We were talking about "victim" as well. It is not a bad thing to admit you were a victim. And even when you heal you will have always been a victim in that situation.
To realize you were a victim gets rid of the self blame and guilt that keeps you a victim, it is not neccessarily holding anger that keeps one a victim -- it is the guilt and blame of accepting responsibility for something you were NOT responsible for....
For instance, I felt like “if only” I did not go into the woods my life would have been different. I suffer with the affects of the attack because IF I AM RESPONSIBLE FOR GETTING ATTACKED THEN I DESERVE ALL OF THE CONSEQUENCES.
(consequences: fear, claustrophobia, difficulty at the dentist, difficulty breathing, panic, trust issues and the list goes on. If I am NOT a victim then I am resposible and if I am responsible then I brought it on myself, and if I brought it on myself, then I do not deserve to be set free, and if I do not deserve to be set free then I deserve to be in bondage, because I deserve the consequences of the attack because I should not have gone in the woods.... But placing blame where it needs to BE stops the guilt, blame and depression cycle.)
When I let go of the responsibility and ACCEPT that I was a victim, then I do not feel as though I have to accept all the ramifications of the attack that plagued me for years.
To accept that I was a victim then sets me free. THEN, I can tell the thoughts of defeat "get out of here. I was not to blame. I refuse to live with that responsibility. The perpetrator is guilty and the Perpetrator is to blame. I here and now refuse to accept the guilt and the blame anymore. I accept God’s love and healing because I deserve it – Jesus died to give me these things and I accept them!” That is the declaration of victory.
An illustration of that was in "Good Will Hunting" Will had thought all his abuse that happened to him was his fault. It was not any HATRED. It was the burden of the guilt. IT was not until Will faced off with the Doctor (Robin Williams) and the Doctor kept saying "It was not your fault" "IT was not your fault"
When it dawned on Will Hunting that is was not his fault then he was delivered.
It was not about the hatred. The bondage is about ACCEPTING responsibility that is NOT yours to accept.
So, to let these folks, who think victim is a dirty word, or that it is a sin to be a victim, wake up because they ARE WRONG. These people make it hard on a victim and KEEP them in BONDAGE with a guilt trip. They DO NOT HELP. To me, they bear an out and out lie and deception of the devil to keep God's people in bondage.
You do not have to let go of the anger -- let go of the guilt. You did nothing wrong. It happened to you. Not because of you.
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on March 17, 2004 at 20:38.]
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Dot Matrix
"My forgiveness DOES have boundaries and I freely and unashamedly admit it."
P.S.
I did not see Samson being forgiving and blaming himself with all those he slay with the jawbone of an foot....
I did not see David say, "Yoo big boy, you hurt us and killed some of my people. I do not blame you, I do not hate you because it was our fault. We should not have been born..."
No, he zapped him in the head with a rock and God's blessing.
I did not see any forgiveness manifested when Annias and Saphira were struck down for lying about the amount of money they gave. The apostles just carried their dead a$$es out the door.
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Dot Matrix
Sorry double post.
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shazdancer
Dear Dot,
Thank you very much for your last few posts. Please chack your PTs.
Shaz
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shazdancer
Oh yeah, and TWI had its own little variation on the guilt trip...
"If only I had been more in fellowship with Father, I would have heard His still, small voice and this never would have happened...."
Regards,
Shaz
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Dot Matrix
That minister and I talked about that today as well. He is familar with TWI.
I told him because I was afraid I caused it to happen as fear was negative believing...
He sure told me that was a lie.
Then, I said I think I am still afraid.
He then said, "Your problem is you think you cannot go to the Lord AFRAID because FEAR is negative believing. When you are negative believing you are out of fellowhip. So, you remain in your cycle of fear and condemnation. You feel you have to straighten up before you can go to God."
Then, he gave me these scriptures:
Psalm 34:4
I sought the Lord and he heard me and delivered me from all my fears.
He said, "they did not get rid of their fear first and then seek the Lord. the whole believing equals receiving thing ties into that. If you were afraid -- you were out of fellowship. If you were out of fellowship -- you had to repent of your sin. But you thought your sin was fear/negative believing.
So, you could not go to God until you were in fellowship. That whole believing thing can keep you away fron God. The WAY focused on portions of the Bible without exploring the whole.
In the psalm, clearly he was in fear (which we call negative believing) but God heard him and delivered him. God is not dependant on our "state" to hear us....
Psalm 34:4
I sought the Lord and he heard me and delivered me from all my fears.
Or
Psalms 56:3
When ever I am afraid I will trust in you.
So it is possible to TRUST in the LORD and be in fear. TWI taught you had to be in fellowhip (not fearing/negative) before you could trust. That is the opposite of this verse!
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johniam
Dot: Mark 9...Lord I believe, help thou mine unbelief. With tears if memory serves. He was not turned away.
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WordWolf
Dot,
that's a keeper. Please keep it handy for later reference.
(Fear and going to God, I mean.)
CW,
I was wondering why in the world they were bothering to shield
this guy when they tossed lcm and mrs w out as soon as they were
no longer an advantage. The rich family aspect explains it.
twi was never PRIMARILY concerned with the well-being of the
"followers" (dupes, slaves). twi always wanted to know what's in
it for them. That's why that chef was encouraged NOT to work
professionally-they tried to get him to work on-grounds so they
could get a professional chef to cook for them for less than
minimum wage. Anybody who had a skill they wanted close to them
was leaned on to work on staff-regardless of any personal
hardship this would cause them.
Odd how lcm could all but foam at the mouth advocating murdering
homos and blaming them for the downfall of western civilization,
yet let this little STATEWIDE SCANDAL go past without taking
action. Well, at twi, money talks, and it ALWAYS did.
I mean, why did God need a plane that never worked, anyway?
Why did vpw ever fly the Concorde? It did NOT start with lcm...
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templelady
I did something tonight,
I went to the Temple and on the Prayer list I put Five names; R & S U, Loy Craig Martindale, Donna Martindale, And Rosalie Rivenbark--
Let us be clear, I didn't get all happy and joyous and fuzzy headed. I asked God not to hold their sin against them. I didn't reveal anything more than the names and I just handed them in and walked away.
DO I feel Better about the past? NOPE, the past is what it was.
I still can't recapture 81 birthdays; 17 Christmas', Thanksgivings, Easters etc.;6 proms; 3 first dates-----
I can't mend my daughters shattered heart-or see my grandchild- or erase my son's anger--
I have come to the point where the thoughts of those years no longer send me into a clenched jaw fury while scalding tears stream down my face and the migraine pounds in my head.
But I can say, that there will never come a day when the memories grow fuzzy or I forget what happened. There are posters here whose glib advice is to get on with life--
Getting on with life is relatively simple --as long as you're not dead life tends to get on all on it's own.
But trying to pretend it never happened, or really isn't that bad after time passes, is a fool's errand--Because sexual predation is the most vicious predation of all--
It is predation carried out in secret in broad daylight. It is a predation that relies on the fact that the human body is wired to respond to certain sensations in certain ways. It is employed by persons who use that knowledge to cause their victims to feel dirty and unclean and responsible because their bodies did respond. They then use that guilt to foster bonds of steel which make their victims acquiesce to even more abuse. They engender within their victims the endless questions and thoughts of “If only…, I I hadn’t… I shouldn’t…I should…., wasn’t strong enough…, good enough…..
They then stand before the courts of men and talk of their illness-their uncontrollable urges--turning themselves into victims of some unseen malady that explains away their guilt--leaving their victims not only with the guilt and shame that they already feel but with the knowledge that somehow or another their abuser really isn’t an abuser but as much a victim as them.
We as society need to stop this insanity--We need to stop allowing the predators in our midst, to blame their mothers and their childhoods, and their pasts and society for THEIR CHOICES. That’s right THEIR CHOICES.
Many a Married man has looked at a pretty woman, not his wife, and kept on walking--It takes a conscious decision to turn and follow her ,to buy her a drink, a conscious decision every step of the way. It takes conscious decisions every step of the way when you abuse and predate in way, shape or form.
No one grabbed them by the collar and made them do anything-- “I couldn’t stop myself “means “I wanted what I wanted.”
If by chance they have a mental defect that makes them incapable of understanding right from wrong or want to argue they are incapable of controlling their urges then them they need to be institutionalized permanently THE FIRST TIME THEY ARE CAUGHT AND CONVICTED to keep society safe.
We don’t hesitate to sentence murderers to life without parole or even the death penalty for the First offense-- but somehow the social workers amidst us (the same social workers by the by which claim that mothers ALWAYS KNOW) have convinced our judiciary that warm-touchy feely therapy is going to work while at the same time admitting a pedophile can NEVER BE CURED!
ENOUGH ALREADY
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templelady
Coolwaters check your Private topics please
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Shellon
Temple lady said:
It is predation carried out in secret in broad daylight. It is a predation that relies on the fact that the human body is wired to respond to certain sensations in certain ways. It is employed by persons who use that knowledge to cause their victims to feel dirty and unclean and responsible because their bodies did respond. They then use that guilt to foster bonds of steel which make their victims acquiesce to even more abuse. They engender within their victims the endless questions and thoughts of “If only…, I I hadn’t… I shouldn’t…I should…., wasn’t strong enough…, good enough…..
They then stand before the courts of men and talk of their illness-their uncontrollable urges--turning themselves into victims of some unseen malady that explains away their guilt--leaving their victims not only with the guilt and shame that they already feel but with the knowledge that somehow or another their abuser really isn’t an abuser but as much a victim as them.
============================================
Mo, of all the text books I've read studying this disgust, of all the case studies I've cried over, of all the conversations I've had with highly qualified (?) individuals and therapists that treat these victims and the perps, I have not before read, seen or heard it put in a better way.
Your words being the reality, instead of the clouded over, cleaned up version that make it more palatable for an audience.
Refreshing to finally read a truth, a voice for these kids; all kids who have been trapped in this horror. For the kids who were raped by a perpetrator yesterday, molested by a trusted family member or friend last night and have to get up today, sit at the breakfast table with his/her attacker or see them across the street. On the bus or walking to school wondering if anyone will ever help them.
For the kid who told his/her story to the grownups, suffered through the process and one day step off the same bus only to see their attacker drive down the street again, sitting in the pew across the aisle,in the next childrens fellowship at a Way International event or sitting at the kitchen table again.
[This message was edited by Shellon on March 18, 2004 at 5:17.]
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way back in the 70s
Amen...and Amen. There are some very wise and healing words in this thread. Take heed. The truth should NEVER be discounted or hidden or forgotten. That is the only way abusers can be brought to light. The abusers can be ministers, grandfathers, aunts or uncles, folks you think you know, priests, or members "in good standing" in TWI. And just as society is now publically screaming in its outrage over abusers in the Catholic church (and rightfully so), any person, organization or group that has turned a blind eye and deaf ear to those who have been so horribly wronged is as guilty in the coverup as if they themselves had committed the crimes.
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shazdancer
Thanks, Mo! ((((((((((Mo))))))))))
Some people have horrendous childhood experiences, and vow that they will never perpetuate the abuse. They become empathetic to the needs of others. Some never reconcile their past, and may become victims again. Some internalize their anger, and become depressed. There are probably other reactions to abuse, as well as combinations of these, as well.
But there is another reaction to abuse, based on a view that the world is a hostile place, and take what you can before they take from you, abuse who you can because they don't care about you. It is the realm of the personality disordered, the narcissist and the sociopath. They become very adept at playing the game, saying and doing many of the right things, so that they are not suspect. How many times does a neighbor of a mass murderer say, "But he was a nice man, so quiet, we never knew....?"
The face of evil is not like on the movie of the week: snarling, drooling, an evil glint in the eye. The face of evil is smiling, confident, but lying with impugnity. The face of evil is convinced he is entitled.
Regards,
Shaz
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Dot Matrix
I love so many things said here--
I really love this:
"The face of evil is convinced he is entitled."
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nknative
MO you are wonderful. You have a way with words. (no pun intended)
I wish that you could shout all of what you have said from the mountain tops so that all can hear.
It is posts like this that need to be seen and heard.
Thanks for telling it how it is and not trying to sugarcoat it.
I wish that I could give you a big hug but fjor now please know that you are in my prayers and so are all of the others that have been abused.
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Catcup
After being the victim of a crime, it is important to not let the experience destroy you, but to use the experience in a positive way.
One of the most constructive things a person can do is use their experience to help others avoid the same thing happening to them.
That's not bitterness.
That's courage.
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