trying to justify the sin is not the same as forgiveness. I can Ask GOd not to hold their sins againt them ., and I do, But that doesn't make the sins any less sins
MJ, So you don't think a public apology from TWI is even worth considering by such a cleaned up organization now ? Give me a break and glad I am not welcomed at the Way anymore ! Just my opinion but you got issues to confront with your logic and your whole outlook on what you have expressed here ! --> Yeah I will get over it ok so spare me your bitterness sermon.
[This message was edited by dougie73 on March 17, 2004 at 2:07.]
If The Way International is as "cleaned up" as they say it is, why havent' they:
*Looked up all the people they KNOW they did wrong to and apologize? (Nah, it would just open the door for more questions, now wouldn't it-- and they don't want to answer those.)
*Get rid of people like M*rK W*ll*ce who ACTUALLY ASKED ME TO THREATEN AN INDIVIDUAL WITH THE DEATH OF SOMEONE IN THEIR FAMILY IF THEY DISOBEYED.
Yes, I said it here, and I offered to swear to it in a court of law AND STILL DO.
(For all you wonderful folks at Baker & Hostettler et al)
This is not, I repeat NOT a cleaned up organization. This old song and dance about the ones who left being the cause of the problem is the excuse tyrants have used throughout history to get rid of people who expose them for what they do.
And if you truly believe that the reason TWI asks people all those personal and invasive questions to do anything other than gain leverage against them, you are very very sadly mistaken. Gullible is not even the word for it.
Ask Insurgent or Waywardwafer how much they have changed. I have conversed with one of them. They want out but want to keep their families intact. Ask them what happens when one spouse leaves while the other is still in.
Things haven't changed, they've just adjused their Rosie colored glasses a bit.
I understood you meant that it is the people who are happy in TWI themselves who think, "The Way is so much better now. All the bad people are gone. They should have never been in The Way in the first place."
'Course, you could tell them that all the "bad" people, the perpetrators of abuse, are NOT gone. The ones who are still in power have been in power for years, and have not made any public or private apologies, which would be the Christian thing to do. You could tell them that there are still lawsuits being fought. You could tell them that access to a burial site is restricted. You could ask why promises that were made (Corps chalet, for starters) were never kept. You could ask a lot of things, if you believed only half of what is written on these boards.
But I don't think that GS is here for the convinced. It is here for the person who wants to know the truth of what happened. So many people, all different parts of the country, different walks of life, most don't know each other, coming here with similar stories about their involvement in that organization. Pretty powerful, if you ask me.
I haven't been gone that long but can say it has changed. Not for the better though. It reminds of of the early 90s when so many had been tossed or left that groups were small. To keep things from collapsing in our state, things were kept very low key. Once the situation stabilized, life went back to control-mode. By the mid-90s, LCM was back to his ole screamin' self.
Things blew up after the law suits so now they're in damage control mode. "We looooooooove youuuuuuuu." I realized that the same folks such as Rosie were around when VPW was doing his thing are still around today. That's when I decided to go. Way too much of a pattern there.
Just a thought--If the tree is diseased, the fruit it bears (if any) will be so too. The sickness started long ago, continued, and is still there. I think of the "super-viruses" prevalent today. They may lie dormant for a while and appear to be defeated by "new and improved" treatments, only to morph and return to wreak havoc and destruction.
"Things blew up after the law suits so now they're in damage control mode. "We looooooooove youuuuuuuu."
Yep, that's the same thing they did after POP and fellowships got small-- yes, they kept things low-key and very "sweet" and "lovey dovey" to keep the money from walking out the door. And they are doing the same thing again.
TWI is biding its time, hoping that all of us who posted on WD and were so willing to lend our first hand testimony to actual deposition will tire and go away.
They are hoping that those who decimated TWI's ranks by being courageous enough to tell the truth, exposing TWI's ugly underbelly will eventually tire of having to keep what happened in front of people. They are waiting for us to all go away, for things to "calm down" and for people to FORGET.
And as soon as that happens, you can bet your bottom dollar that the teeth and razor blades will be back in full force, continuing to rip peoples lives to shreds.
I have been told of a person they "worked" with for 6 months left because of the internet .
You seem to think I think things have changed and some are putting it on me haha the blame game.
I do speak to them and shaz that is right those entrenched now will stay in they have lost nearly everyone and have heard many stories.
Do I think they love folks?
No but I clearly remember when I did believe that and how it is a point they make to get involved and I believe the idea of concern and LOVE is much more than it ever was . more intense if you will . When I took pfal they ran the class at least once a month in this area , and new people were common in a fellowship.
In twi 2 people the focus was to heal the household from the hurts.
Now they look for marks they are well aware of who is who and how to invest a great deal of effort to keep the recruit from information and how to counter the information and they use the fact your not a quality person for God ALOT more.
People took pfal to date girls or because their cousin did it back in my day . Twig was a fun time with many differnet types and personalities. Twi wants only the devoted ones now the ones who want to serve God seriously the approach is one of alot more guilt and shame on you if you do not comply from the very very beginning. Because of the pain the ones who have styaed in have endured they have little time or patience for anyone that is not completely interested and obedient.
It isnt fun it is quite awful , so the attraction is on a deeper level than what people may think .
WAY BACK in the 70's IS RIGHT!
The ones in twi now are strong and will not be dealt with easy and entreated they are calculating they have been through much pain and destruction and hurt . Those that want to tangle with them have a much more serious problem than when I was approached by way corps 25 years ago. they make me cry and I know it is a cult .
do you remember when you felt the love well mix in guilt and shame and alot of more pressure and that is what twi is today.
I truly believe if a person is willing to put up with all they offer to find the truth from God then getting away from them is more difficult than it ever was.
I also think twi is small and insignificant , I understand some feel hate and need to blame twi(or me or anyone who disagrees with them) for the situations they had to deal with I had a serious problem with them as well.
But hate(in the name of a righteous cause; is still hate) and blame does not take the pain away in fact that is almost what twi does isnt it?
I chose to love them and I really do, I do not allow them to manipulate me, or hurt me , or make my choices in life but I know how this happened and I know Jesus christ saves His people and Im in His group for love forever.
You know what gets me? People who are out and know about twi's "proven" BS think that was the only BS in twi...and everything else is just a bunch of lying, bitter and hateful people spouting off on a message board.
Mo, please forgive me if this is too much for you, but I think people here at GS need to know just what it was like to be in twi in Anchorage.
Now mind you all that the things I say about Alaska are from the viewpoint of when we were last there...nearly 17 years ago...and reflect things from my point of view from my experiences...not Mo's. If I am saying something here that is not reflective of Mo's viewpoint and experiences, I apologize. We were both lied to so much that it's hard to determine exactly what was the truth of things, much more trying to determine what either one of us were feeling and thinking. When I speak of "us" or "we" feeling or thinking something, remember that I am telling what I thought was the reality, not necessarily what Mo thought was the reality. We were pitted against one another by twi leadership...we have already discovered some things that we saw from completely opposite understandings. I'm sure with the telling of this, we will find more things in which we had opposite understandings.
OK, here goes. This is long...
First, Alaska is remote...it is geographically isolated from the rest of the country. Even in big cities like Anchorage, there is a sense from both Alaskans and non-Alaskans that Alaska is outside of what happens down here in the Lower 48. Get outside of the cities and towns, Alaska is not much more than what most folks would consider "wilderness". Which is a wonderful thing to those who like to live isolated lives.
Many of the people who live outside of the cities and towns often do not see anybody besides their own immediate families and the occasional trapper stopping by to check on them for up to six months of every year. Heck, we lived on a dairy with good roads all the way, but just getting our daughter to and from school was an hour and a half ordeal...every morning and every evening. Those who lived in the bush often sent their children to boarding schools. It was just too difficult and too far to try to make daily trips to and from the school. People must trust one another in Alaska. That trust is often given simply because it is expected that people will live up to that trust...and people need people. Alaska thrives because the majority of people there are trustworthy.
However, if that trust is ever broken, it's a harsh blow not only to one or two people, but to a whole community...and the price of breaking a trust in Alaska is harsh...so harsh, in fact, that people just do not expect anyone to go there and do that.
Second, religion in Alaska is a mixture of Native American, Native Alaskan, Russian Orthodox, modern Christianity and, in places like Anchorage, there is a myriad of Eastern religions. It is not unusual to find that people practice a little of this and a little of that and sprinkle it all with their own introspections. I'll never forget when my husband was out in the bush and he didn't get back on time. My daughter and I were living with Mo and her family at the time. I was nearly hysterical with fear that my husband wasn't coming back. Mo taught me a Native Alaskan practice called, "His boots go walking". The practice calls to tie a pair of the man's boots together and hang them from the ceiling by the laces. As long as they swing, the man is still alive...his boots still go walking. But if they ever stop swinging, then it's time to worry. Mo did this for me. I was comforted until my husband did finally get home...nearly 2 days late. The religious beliefs in Alaska are most often about survival, not "pure" doctrine.
These things said, it's no wonder that dropping an organization like twi into a state like Alaska was some bad hoodoo.
TWI made use of these things...they sent their worst leadership to Alaska. Out of sight, out of mind. After all, who really cared what happened in Alaska? Who really believed anything that people in Alaska talked about? It was just some odd state where odd people lived odd lives. And the likelihood of anybody getting out to the Lower 48 very often was nil.
Perfect place to hide mistakes.
Perfect place to gain complete control.
When my family was forced upon Mo's family, it was to control us. Mo was told that I was being put there to be watched. I was told that I was being put there to help Mo. Mo thought she was protecting and helping her brothers and sisters in christ. I thought that I was helping my sister in christ.
You see, Mo wasn't ever one to shut up when she saw a problem. She didn't swallow twi BS very readily. Me? I was just plain "out in left field". In fact, I think twi told Mo that I was a witch. We didn't fit into twi very well. There was always some struggle over something. But twi leadership offered each of us the opportunity to "redeem" ourselves. Mo's job was to keep an eye on me and not let me hurt other believers. My job was to help Mo be a better twi wife.
Neither one of us understood that twi leadership fully expected us to wear down one another and become anathema and, thus, twi could then be rid of us both.
We didn't understand this because we didn't know the dirty little secret twi knew about one of our twig leaders...the same leader who ran the children's fellowship that our children attended. (Our twig leader was also the branch leader, btw.)
We both knew this guy was out to lunch on many things. But we both cared for his wife...and figured his wife would be involved in most of the activities going on in his home. The last thing we expected was that he was a pedophile...and that his assistant was also a pedophile...and that between the two the children's fellowship was like a pedophile's mall: they were going shopping for the kids who they figured they could keep shut up for fear of displeasing God and their parents...and their leadership.
Silent obedience from children in twi was enforced with a harsh whack from a wooden spoon...by everybody from your twig leader and his assistant down to your mother and father. If that did not silence the children, open mockery and ridicule in front of other children and other leadership was coupled with the whack from the wooden spoon. It was nothing for a couple of pedophiles to prey on children so silenced.
And it was nothing to blame a bad home when the children's acting out behavior worsened. After all, twi leadership was doing everything possible to "help" these children out of their behavior...it had to be the fault of their bad mothers.
So we continued the whacking, mockery and ridicule at home. Something was wrong with our kids and we had to get them under control. According to twi leadership.
When all else failed, twi leadership blamed our children's heritage. Mo's children are of Native Alaskan heritage. My daughter is of Iranian heritage. Both heritages twi considered to be "dark"..."devil spirit influenced DNA" was exactly what I was told about my daughter by the pedophile twig leader.
I know for me this was the point I began to suspect the sonuvabiatch. I began to look around at the people involved in twi in Alaska. Aside from Mo's family, there were no Native Alaskans involved. It became apparent to me that her family was allowed to be involved in twi only because her whiteness redeemed them in twi's eyes.
My eyes began to open even more.
Things began to add up. The children's night terrors: these children were so traumatized that they saw "red eyes" in their closet when the lights were off. The children's dread of going to any fellowship, but especially children's fellowship: they so dreaded going that they would do whatever they could to sabotage our efforts to get to twig or to get them to children's fellowship...including being sick all of the time. The cruelty towards the youngest one...Mo's daughter: Mo's husband had nicknamed her "ugly bugly"...and the pedophile twig leader always singled her out for "punishment". The "concern" the pedophile twig leader had about the sexual orientation of the other children (Mo's son, stepson and my daughter are all the same age...within months of each other): he alluded to the possibility that these children were already sexually active...with one another. The hatred of my husband: the pedophile twig leader knew my husband was suspicious of him...so he banned my husband from twig for "putting doubt about God's ministers" in my mind. (My husband would, at my vehement insistence, take me and my daughter to twig and sit out in our car the whole time...which was sometimes 2.5 hours. I had to get blessed afterwards, doncha know. Believe me, I am still ashamed of what kind of wife and mother I was.) The "prophecy" made by the pedophile twig leader about me: he "prophesied" that if I didn't leave my husband I'd be dead in 6 months.
Then it dawned on me that we were sent to live with Mo and her family while we were in the middle of attempting to prosecute a "babe in the word" after he had molested my daughter. Mo's husband was supposed to be the expert on getting through the system. Our twig leader (the pedophile) assured us that Mo's husband would make sure that the system didn't screw us. After all, believers were always being screwed by man's system.
These things began to add up to the truth: our children were being sexually, physically, mentally and spiritually abused on a regular basis by the twig leader and lord knows who else...and twi had every intention of covering it up if we found out and said anything.
Sending me and my daughter to live with Mo and her family was the cover: my daughter had already been "tainted", so acting out behavior in Mo's children was due to my daughter's "taint". I was "dark" and had a "long history of dividing the household". Since "the whole household" had been tainted by me and my daughter, nobody would believe a damned thing we said. We could expose the pedophiles all we wanted, but nobody would believe us.
And that's exactly what happened, too.
Don't think for one minute that higher up twi leadership was not fully aware of what was happening in Alaska.
There's something that I doubt even Mo realizes about this whole situation. I've never spoken about this before because I have no physical proof. What proof I had was either stolen by twi leadership or buried in an Alaska State Senator's files...if not destroyed.
The "babe in the word" (aka Squiggy) who molested my daughter was from a wealthy, influential and well-respected family. Squiggy ran a daycare for "christian" families...with blessings and high recommendations from several ministers...including twi ministers. He had been up on charges several times before, but in each case the children were too young to give reliable testimony and the parents were bought off (by Squiggy's parents) and left Alaska. In each case, the children were from poor families. Squiggy's defense was always, "They let me have their children in trade for babysitting." This worked because there had been a daycare center in Anchorage that indeed worked like that: parents were aware of the sexual abuse but had agreed to keep silent in exchange for food, housing and daycare.
The case involving my daughter also involved 9 other children from Squiggy's daycare. My daughter was 7yo...the other children were 5 and under...down to 18 months old. Squiggy's family got to the other parents. One by one they dropped out of sight. We would find out that they had left state. The testimony they had given was confused and garbled...they were simply too young to be reliable witnesses. The charges against Squiggy for what he did to them had to be dropped.
It came down to the 5yo and my daughter. The testimony by the 5yo was easily dismissed: she believed in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny. This, according to Squiggy's defense attorney, was proof that she did not know fantasy from reality. The mother was shamed and ridiculed in the newspaper to the point that she took the offer to be "helped" by Squiggy's parents to leave state.
My daughter's testimony, however, was sound. Her dad's favorite saying around christmastime was "Santa Claus is a fake, a phony and a fraud." We were good twigites...there was no Tooth Fairy or Easter Bunny or Santa Claus in our home!
There was actual physical evidence in my daughter's case, too. Because I had grown up sexually abused, I had taught my daughter from nearly birth that her body is her own and that NOBODY had the right to touch her private parts or kiss her of fondle her. I also taught her how to fight back and to tell immediately. I promised her I would always believe her.
These things led to my daughter telling immediately. We were at the police station within 10 minutes of picking up my daughter from daycare. There was plenty of physical evidence...and Squiggy was picked up within 30 minutes of us going to the police. According to the police, he was laying on the bed with a grin on his face when he was picked up.
When my daughter testified before an 18 member grand jury, she was grilled by Squiggy's defense and members of the grand jury about her parents telling her to let Squiggy have his way so they could pay him for daycare. I was not allowed into the courtroom because it was assumed that my presence would influence the honesty of her testimony. Every grand juror that came out of the courtroom after she testified told me that they had never before experienced a child so clear-headed as my daughter. They unanimously indicted Squiggy.
Now here's the bugger...
The DA's office contacted me to please rescind my daughter's testimony because Squiggy was being raped in jail and faced worse in prison. Squiggy's family had contacted the DA's office and had pleaded for the charges to be dropped if they agreed to put Squiggy into a treatment program. Since he had already been indicted, there was no dropping the charges unless the testimony was rescinded.
Well, the DA's office did some digging into our history and discovered twi. So they contacted hq. According to the DA's office, they had enough information about my "track record" to dismantle my daughter's testimony and show both her and I to be "quite unstable". In fact, the DA's office was so sure that my daughter and I would be barbequed on the witness stand because twi leadership had provided statements about our impoverished situation and our daughter's lies and other "disturbing behavior" our branch/twig (yeah...the pedophile) leader had witnessed and had tried to "help" our family with "ministerial counseling".
The senator did some checking and came back to us with the same story: our "track record" according to twi was one of "questionable character" and "chronic problems with poverty and instability due to their [our] refusal to settle down in one place and listen to sound doctrine." TWI had provided "records" dating clear back to 1976. This was in 1984/85.
I still wouldn't budge. I told the DA's office that there was enough physical evidence and professional testimony that me or my daughter's character had better not become an issue or I'd go outside of Alaska to the press with the story of how Alaska was backing a cult and a pedophile.
It never went to court. Squiggy plead guilty. He got 5 years in prison and 2 years in a treatment facility afterwards. How much time he actually did, we don't know...we left Alaska when we saw that we were going to go through the same thing again with twi.
So it really gets me that there are people on this message board who think that I am lying or am bitter or am hateful against "good men".
BS to the nth degree!
If you read nothing else of this post, read this:
TWI leadership from hq right on down protected pedophiles in Alaska. TWI protect the pedophiles in an attempt to woo a wealthy, influential family into their ranks. TWI provided information they had gathered about me and my family dating clear back to 1976 in an effort to protect their own leadership from any testimony me and my family might give in any future cases against their own leadership.
If you're involved in twi, then you're being tracked, watched and a file is being kept on you. I hope like hell you don't have to find out the same way I found out...but since the pedophile branch/twig leader is still among you, my hope may not prove out.
And if this seems like a "scare tactic", mj, tough. Sometimes fear is a great motivator to do right. Sometimes people should be afraid.
I am wise I am not a fool I am aware of as much as possible of reality in life.
But hate and fear and threats do not take up much space in my life.
I like life I love people I love God. I chose to be happy and to give happiness .
do I think child molesters are in the world? yes with plenty of fools and muders and idiots and generaly unhappy people .
Im not afraid of them . they can not ruin my Joy by living on this earth.
I know lots of heros and I am so happy and proud to be amoung them it seems a true hero seeks approval from a source within to me and not so much outside measures.
I dunno cool water ask Mr. Pawtucket maybe he will give you permission to do what you want to do and you can feel better .
I hope so .
I really do .
yes im an uppity person I do allow what others think of me to put me in a spiral of rage or hate. I chose to love instead, myself and others.
it is only a difference of choice . nothing to wish people to hell for but if it will help you , here have a go and tell me all about your feelings and wishes for me.
it is a message board .
oh I see you edited you wish to tell me to go to hell . maybe next time .
To be mad at you is not worth it anymore. You're not going to listen. You're not going to care about my daughter or any of the other children that were, are and may be exposed to this man. You're not going to do anything but find a way to be "above it all".
The difference between the way I think and the way you write things out is this.
Pity truly does not work for my life. I am concened with an action plan . Life is just to short for me to spin wheels and wonder what if and poor people. the world is a torn up unhappy place if you see it as such.. the world is anything we chose it to be for ourself .
I can not support rage or hate . I know every person on this earth and esp those who have been through twi have tremedous ability to overcome troubles and strive and find peace in life.
this message board is truly a honor to those wonderful souls in cyber space.
If you need support and consel for you and your daughter I am not the one but help available for you to seek happiness and peace I do hope you seek and find the help you need... life is a precious thing cool waters and no one deserves to be tormented even one more day , I happen to believe God is able to help you, if you can not many groups and people are on the net to help you and you daughter.
Everyone meets misfortune cool waters your not alone in the journey to feel good and happy in life with the trials it brings.
The difference between the way I think and the way you write things out is this.
Pity truly does not work for my life. I am concened with an action plan . Life is just to short for me to spin wheels and wonder what if and poor people. the world is a torn up unhappy place if you see it as such.. the world is anything we chose it to be for ourself .
I can not support rage or hate . I know every person on this earth and esp those who have been through twi have tremedous ability to overcome troubles and strive and find peace in life.
this message board is truly a honor to those wonderful souls in cyber space.
If you need support and consel for you and your daughter I am not the one but help available for you to seek happiness and peace I do hope you seek and find the help you need... life is a precious thing cool waters and no one deserves to be tormented even one more day , I happen to believe God is able to help you, if you can not many groups and people are on the net to help you and you daughter.
Everyone meets misfortune cool waters your not alone in the journey to feel good and happy in life with the trials it brings.
I hope you do find what your looking for .
Oh mj, mj, mj...your need to be better than me is a grand effort.
I think your better than what you think of yourself .
I read a great deal of pain and hurt and angry feelings in your posts, living with that is not fun I have been there , you can find a way to feel good about yourself cool waters YOU CAN!
I can not control how others recieve me , I can only control my own life and feelings and be open to love and trust .
That is a tough lesson for many folks who think they are not able to control their life and leaving a cult sometimes people will struggle for a while finding what brings you joy.
YOu will find the joy and peace only when you think you deserve it . I can not change that . I accept that .
I hear your message of love. We all do. I believe, however, it is an over emphasised point of view perhaps.
Like: you have the ability to love everyone who ever caused you harm and who is causing you harm and who will cause you harmin the future.
If you are truly there it is a place to be admired, however, if you loved Cool Waters you would stop applying PRESSURE to her - to be in a "place" she is not capable of being right now or maybe ever. That WOULD BE LOVE to her.
To simply say that you "were not there", it was "her children" and it was "beyond horrid" and that you "understand her pain and will pray" for her -- would IMO be LOVING her. But instead you push a message, that is not realistic to many, to love everyone yet the very nature of ARGUING with an individual in PAIN is NOT loving.
Can't you love her -- where she is -- without trying to force your mandated version of healing down her throat? Can't you love her?
IT seems your need to "be right" and pass along this "love at all costs" message is actually more important to you then the people that have to listen to it. Why? Either you truly believe it or you like to be the messamger of "rise above it all" which is actually an effort to make you "look good" and to NOT take the time to HEAR this woman and to love her where she is.
If you truly want to love someone then let's see this great "place" that you live --in action. Love her and it maybe as simple as stop trying to PUSH her into a place she does not want to be.
I mean, your LOVE message almost seems like you love the people "in TWI" before, you love the people "in now", you love "everyone" because we each (you incl.) made a decison to be there so it is not their fault but the fault of each person.
So, you love the evil doer. Great. Because in this case by not HEARING her and only hearing yourself you are becoming that evil doer.
Let's see some of that love here MJ. Let's really see it -- or you are like a tinkling bell...
Or as brideshead said
"Her words are like bubbles... They entertain for a little while then they burst and there is nothing."
(We posted at the same time. This was to your previous posts)
Thank you for having the guts to lay the truth out here for all to read. I am sorry anything happened to all the children, the families and communities.
May God rock you in his arms and dry your tears.
He will listen to all of it as long as you need to cry and talk about it. He loves you.
the fact is I also was hurt by twi. I do not tell my story because it is about moving beyond the pain .
Of course I believe CATcup is so right that this is needed very needed to allow people to see they are not the only ones who have used by twi, that is how you feel like it has to be only you and your bad and evil and deserve it.
I say people deserve to feel good now to make the changes to have a life they want .
This takes the ability to see beyond the rage or the shame and know your ok. regardless of what others may think say or do to you.
If people still have the power over you to manipulate your feelings your honest feelings about yourself , if your very being and happiness is about approval from others let me say the next cult or abuser is just standing in line to hurt you.
it is serious stuff Dot.
it will repeat over and over in life and the victim howl will never end ... Im one who believes the changes to make a positive life after a cult comes from WITHIN these mid frames and thought processes. It is the difference of having a life full of victory and peace and joy and being a victim scraping and howling for help from people they do not trust and who do not care about them .
I see recovery at GS, I see posters who are well and healthy and happy and dare I say continuing a relationship with The father of our creation . I think many achieved this life worth living by realizing the changes in life come from being at peace with what you believe on your own terms. I am not pushing anyone Dot , if cool waters does not want to address her issues with professional help that is her choice . I just know recovery is possible and to live in misery and hate is not good for anyone so I suggested she seeks support . Of course it is always a choice.
I read my horoscope just a couple of minutes ago. Here's what it said:
quote:There is apt to be a sober attitude trying to bring you down from your catbird seat today, Victoria. Beware of those who want to rain on your parade, but at the same time, realize where they are coming from. Acceptance of others is a key theme for you today and you will find that the less stubborn you are, the better off you will be. Take your time and try not to go to extremes.
Hmmmm! ;)-->
Maybe I'm not ready to "accept". Maybe this isn't about acceptance at all, but about the importance of letting parents who are still in twi know exactly what kind of organization they're in.
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MJ
trying to justify the sin is not the same as forgiveness. I can Ask GOd not to hold their sins againt them ., and I do, But that doesn't make the sins any less sins
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dougie73
MJ, So you don't think a public apology from TWI is even worth considering by such a cleaned up organization now ? Give me a break and glad I am not welcomed at the Way anymore ! Just my opinion but you got issues to confront with your logic and your whole outlook on what you have expressed here !
--> Yeah I will get over it ok so spare me your bitterness sermon.
[This message was edited by dougie73 on March 17, 2004 at 2:07.]
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Catcup
I will repeat this.
If The Way International is as "cleaned up" as they say it is, why havent' they:
*Looked up all the people they KNOW they did wrong to and apologize? (Nah, it would just open the door for more questions, now wouldn't it-- and they don't want to answer those.)
*Get rid of people like M*rK W*ll*ce who ACTUALLY ASKED ME TO THREATEN AN INDIVIDUAL WITH THE DEATH OF SOMEONE IN THEIR FAMILY IF THEY DISOBEYED.
Yes, I said it here, and I offered to swear to it in a court of law AND STILL DO.
(For all you wonderful folks at Baker & Hostettler et al)
This is not, I repeat NOT a cleaned up organization. This old song and dance about the ones who left being the cause of the problem is the excuse tyrants have used throughout history to get rid of people who expose them for what they do.
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Catcup
And if you truly believe that the reason TWI asks people all those personal and invasive questions to do anything other than gain leverage against them, you are very very sadly mistaken. Gullible is not even the word for it.
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Abigail
Ask Insurgent or Waywardwafer how much they have changed. I have conversed with one of them. They want out but want to keep their families intact. Ask them what happens when one spouse leaves while the other is still in.
Things haven't changed, they've just adjused their Rosie colored glasses a bit.
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shazdancer
Dear mj,
I understood you meant that it is the people who are happy in TWI themselves who think, "The Way is so much better now. All the bad people are gone. They should have never been in The Way in the first place."
'Course, you could tell them that all the "bad" people, the perpetrators of abuse, are NOT gone. The ones who are still in power have been in power for years, and have not made any public or private apologies, which would be the Christian thing to do. You could tell them that there are still lawsuits being fought. You could tell them that access to a burial site is restricted. You could ask why promises that were made (Corps chalet, for starters) were never kept. You could ask a lot of things, if you believed only half of what is written on these boards.
But I don't think that GS is here for the convinced. It is here for the person who wants to know the truth of what happened. So many people, all different parts of the country, different walks of life, most don't know each other, coming here with similar stories about their involvement in that organization. Pretty powerful, if you ask me.
Regards,
Shaz
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JustThinking
I haven't been gone that long but can say it has changed. Not for the better though. It reminds of of the early 90s when so many had been tossed or left that groups were small. To keep things from collapsing in our state, things were kept very low key. Once the situation stabilized, life went back to control-mode. By the mid-90s, LCM was back to his ole screamin' self.
Things blew up after the law suits so now they're in damage control mode. "We looooooooove youuuuuuuu." I realized that the same folks such as Rosie were around when VPW was doing his thing are still around today. That's when I decided to go. Way too much of a pattern there.
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way back in the 70s
Just a thought--If the tree is diseased, the fruit it bears (if any) will be so too. The sickness started long ago, continued, and is still there. I think of the "super-viruses" prevalent today. They may lie dormant for a while and appear to be defeated by "new and improved" treatments, only to morph and return to wreak havoc and destruction.
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Catcup
"Things blew up after the law suits so now they're in damage control mode. "We looooooooove youuuuuuuu."
Yep, that's the same thing they did after POP and fellowships got small-- yes, they kept things low-key and very "sweet" and "lovey dovey" to keep the money from walking out the door. And they are doing the same thing again.
TWI is biding its time, hoping that all of us who posted on WD and were so willing to lend our first hand testimony to actual deposition will tire and go away.
They are hoping that those who decimated TWI's ranks by being courageous enough to tell the truth, exposing TWI's ugly underbelly will eventually tire of having to keep what happened in front of people. They are waiting for us to all go away, for things to "calm down" and for people to FORGET.
And as soon as that happens, you can bet your bottom dollar that the teeth and razor blades will be back in full force, continuing to rip peoples lives to shreds.
It's what they have always done.
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Wacky Funster
"*Get rid of people like M*rK W*ll*ce who ACTUALLY ASKED ME TO THREATEN AN INDIVIDUAL WITH THE DEATH OF SOMEONE IN THEIR FAMILY IF THEY DISOBEYED"
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mj412
yes
I have been told of a person they "worked" with for 6 months left because of the internet .
You seem to think I think things have changed and some are putting it on me haha the blame game.
I do speak to them and shaz that is right those entrenched now will stay in they have lost nearly everyone and have heard many stories.
Do I think they love folks?
No but I clearly remember when I did believe that and how it is a point they make to get involved and I believe the idea of concern and LOVE is much more than it ever was . more intense if you will . When I took pfal they ran the class at least once a month in this area , and new people were common in a fellowship.
In twi 2 people the focus was to heal the household from the hurts.
Now they look for marks they are well aware of who is who and how to invest a great deal of effort to keep the recruit from information and how to counter the information and they use the fact your not a quality person for God ALOT more.
People took pfal to date girls or because their cousin did it back in my day . Twig was a fun time with many differnet types and personalities. Twi wants only the devoted ones now the ones who want to serve God seriously the approach is one of alot more guilt and shame on you if you do not comply from the very very beginning. Because of the pain the ones who have styaed in have endured they have little time or patience for anyone that is not completely interested and obedient.
It isnt fun it is quite awful , so the attraction is on a deeper level than what people may think .
WAY BACK in the 70's IS RIGHT!
The ones in twi now are strong and will not be dealt with easy and entreated they are calculating they have been through much pain and destruction and hurt . Those that want to tangle with them have a much more serious problem than when I was approached by way corps 25 years ago. they make me cry and I know it is a cult .
do you remember when you felt the love well mix in guilt and shame and alot of more pressure and that is what twi is today.
I truly believe if a person is willing to put up with all they offer to find the truth from God then getting away from them is more difficult than it ever was.
I also think twi is small and insignificant , I understand some feel hate and need to blame twi(or me or anyone who disagrees with them) for the situations they had to deal with I had a serious problem with them as well.
But hate(in the name of a righteous cause; is still hate) and blame does not take the pain away in fact that is almost what twi does isnt it?
I chose to love them and I really do, I do not allow them to manipulate me, or hurt me , or make my choices in life but I know how this happened and I know Jesus christ saves His people and Im in His group for love forever.
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CoolWaters
You know what gets me? People who are out and know about twi's "proven" BS think that was the only BS in twi...and everything else is just a bunch of lying, bitter and hateful people spouting off on a message board.
Mo, please forgive me if this is too much for you, but I think people here at GS need to know just what it was like to be in twi in Anchorage.
Now mind you all that the things I say about Alaska are from the viewpoint of when we were last there...nearly 17 years ago...and reflect things from my point of view from my experiences...not Mo's. If I am saying something here that is not reflective of Mo's viewpoint and experiences, I apologize. We were both lied to so much that it's hard to determine exactly what was the truth of things, much more trying to determine what either one of us were feeling and thinking. When I speak of "us" or "we" feeling or thinking something, remember that I am telling what I thought was the reality, not necessarily what Mo thought was the reality. We were pitted against one another by twi leadership...we have already discovered some things that we saw from completely opposite understandings. I'm sure with the telling of this, we will find more things in which we had opposite understandings.
OK, here goes. This is long...
First, Alaska is remote...it is geographically isolated from the rest of the country. Even in big cities like Anchorage, there is a sense from both Alaskans and non-Alaskans that Alaska is outside of what happens down here in the Lower 48. Get outside of the cities and towns, Alaska is not much more than what most folks would consider "wilderness". Which is a wonderful thing to those who like to live isolated lives.
Many of the people who live outside of the cities and towns often do not see anybody besides their own immediate families and the occasional trapper stopping by to check on them for up to six months of every year. Heck, we lived on a dairy with good roads all the way, but just getting our daughter to and from school was an hour and a half ordeal...every morning and every evening. Those who lived in the bush often sent their children to boarding schools. It was just too difficult and too far to try to make daily trips to and from the school. People must trust one another in Alaska. That trust is often given simply because it is expected that people will live up to that trust...and people need people. Alaska thrives because the majority of people there are trustworthy.
However, if that trust is ever broken, it's a harsh blow not only to one or two people, but to a whole community...and the price of breaking a trust in Alaska is harsh...so harsh, in fact, that people just do not expect anyone to go there and do that.
Second, religion in Alaska is a mixture of Native American, Native Alaskan, Russian Orthodox, modern Christianity and, in places like Anchorage, there is a myriad of Eastern religions. It is not unusual to find that people practice a little of this and a little of that and sprinkle it all with their own introspections. I'll never forget when my husband was out in the bush and he didn't get back on time. My daughter and I were living with Mo and her family at the time. I was nearly hysterical with fear that my husband wasn't coming back. Mo taught me a Native Alaskan practice called, "His boots go walking". The practice calls to tie a pair of the man's boots together and hang them from the ceiling by the laces. As long as they swing, the man is still alive...his boots still go walking. But if they ever stop swinging, then it's time to worry. Mo did this for me. I was comforted until my husband did finally get home...nearly 2 days late. The religious beliefs in Alaska are most often about survival, not "pure" doctrine.
These things said, it's no wonder that dropping an organization like twi into a state like Alaska was some bad hoodoo.
TWI made use of these things...they sent their worst leadership to Alaska. Out of sight, out of mind. After all, who really cared what happened in Alaska? Who really believed anything that people in Alaska talked about? It was just some odd state where odd people lived odd lives. And the likelihood of anybody getting out to the Lower 48 very often was nil.
Perfect place to hide mistakes.
Perfect place to gain complete control.
When my family was forced upon Mo's family, it was to control us. Mo was told that I was being put there to be watched. I was told that I was being put there to help Mo. Mo thought she was protecting and helping her brothers and sisters in christ. I thought that I was helping my sister in christ.
You see, Mo wasn't ever one to shut up when she saw a problem. She didn't swallow twi BS very readily. Me? I was just plain "out in left field". In fact, I think twi told Mo that I was a witch. We didn't fit into twi very well. There was always some struggle over something. But twi leadership offered each of us the opportunity to "redeem" ourselves. Mo's job was to keep an eye on me and not let me hurt other believers. My job was to help Mo be a better twi wife.
Neither one of us understood that twi leadership fully expected us to wear down one another and become anathema and, thus, twi could then be rid of us both.
We didn't understand this because we didn't know the dirty little secret twi knew about one of our twig leaders...the same leader who ran the children's fellowship that our children attended. (Our twig leader was also the branch leader, btw.)
We both knew this guy was out to lunch on many things. But we both cared for his wife...and figured his wife would be involved in most of the activities going on in his home. The last thing we expected was that he was a pedophile...and that his assistant was also a pedophile...and that between the two the children's fellowship was like a pedophile's mall: they were going shopping for the kids who they figured they could keep shut up for fear of displeasing God and their parents...and their leadership.
Silent obedience from children in twi was enforced with a harsh whack from a wooden spoon...by everybody from your twig leader and his assistant down to your mother and father. If that did not silence the children, open mockery and ridicule in front of other children and other leadership was coupled with the whack from the wooden spoon. It was nothing for a couple of pedophiles to prey on children so silenced.
And it was nothing to blame a bad home when the children's acting out behavior worsened. After all, twi leadership was doing everything possible to "help" these children out of their behavior...it had to be the fault of their bad mothers.
So we continued the whacking, mockery and ridicule at home. Something was wrong with our kids and we had to get them under control. According to twi leadership.
When all else failed, twi leadership blamed our children's heritage. Mo's children are of Native Alaskan heritage. My daughter is of Iranian heritage. Both heritages twi considered to be "dark"..."devil spirit influenced DNA" was exactly what I was told about my daughter by the pedophile twig leader.
I know for me this was the point I began to suspect the sonuvabiatch. I began to look around at the people involved in twi in Alaska. Aside from Mo's family, there were no Native Alaskans involved. It became apparent to me that her family was allowed to be involved in twi only because her whiteness redeemed them in twi's eyes.
My eyes began to open even more.
Things began to add up. The children's night terrors: these children were so traumatized that they saw "red eyes" in their closet when the lights were off. The children's dread of going to any fellowship, but especially children's fellowship: they so dreaded going that they would do whatever they could to sabotage our efforts to get to twig or to get them to children's fellowship...including being sick all of the time. The cruelty towards the youngest one...Mo's daughter: Mo's husband had nicknamed her "ugly bugly"...and the pedophile twig leader always singled her out for "punishment". The "concern" the pedophile twig leader had about the sexual orientation of the other children (Mo's son, stepson and my daughter are all the same age...within months of each other): he alluded to the possibility that these children were already sexually active...with one another. The hatred of my husband: the pedophile twig leader knew my husband was suspicious of him...so he banned my husband from twig for "putting doubt about God's ministers" in my mind. (My husband would, at my vehement insistence, take me and my daughter to twig and sit out in our car the whole time...which was sometimes 2.5 hours. I had to get blessed afterwards, doncha know. Believe me, I am still ashamed of what kind of wife and mother I was.) The "prophecy" made by the pedophile twig leader about me: he "prophesied" that if I didn't leave my husband I'd be dead in 6 months.
Then it dawned on me that we were sent to live with Mo and her family while we were in the middle of attempting to prosecute a "babe in the word" after he had molested my daughter. Mo's husband was supposed to be the expert on getting through the system. Our twig leader (the pedophile) assured us that Mo's husband would make sure that the system didn't screw us. After all, believers were always being screwed by man's system.
These things began to add up to the truth: our children were being sexually, physically, mentally and spiritually abused on a regular basis by the twig leader and lord knows who else...and twi had every intention of covering it up if we found out and said anything.
Sending me and my daughter to live with Mo and her family was the cover: my daughter had already been "tainted", so acting out behavior in Mo's children was due to my daughter's "taint". I was "dark" and had a "long history of dividing the household". Since "the whole household" had been tainted by me and my daughter, nobody would believe a damned thing we said. We could expose the pedophiles all we wanted, but nobody would believe us.
And that's exactly what happened, too.
Don't think for one minute that higher up twi leadership was not fully aware of what was happening in Alaska.
There's something that I doubt even Mo realizes about this whole situation. I've never spoken about this before because I have no physical proof. What proof I had was either stolen by twi leadership or buried in an Alaska State Senator's files...if not destroyed.
The "babe in the word" (aka Squiggy) who molested my daughter was from a wealthy, influential and well-respected family. Squiggy ran a daycare for "christian" families...with blessings and high recommendations from several ministers...including twi ministers. He had been up on charges several times before, but in each case the children were too young to give reliable testimony and the parents were bought off (by Squiggy's parents) and left Alaska. In each case, the children were from poor families. Squiggy's defense was always, "They let me have their children in trade for babysitting." This worked because there had been a daycare center in Anchorage that indeed worked like that: parents were aware of the sexual abuse but had agreed to keep silent in exchange for food, housing and daycare.
The case involving my daughter also involved 9 other children from Squiggy's daycare. My daughter was 7yo...the other children were 5 and under...down to 18 months old. Squiggy's family got to the other parents. One by one they dropped out of sight. We would find out that they had left state. The testimony they had given was confused and garbled...they were simply too young to be reliable witnesses. The charges against Squiggy for what he did to them had to be dropped.
It came down to the 5yo and my daughter. The testimony by the 5yo was easily dismissed: she believed in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny. This, according to Squiggy's defense attorney, was proof that she did not know fantasy from reality. The mother was shamed and ridiculed in the newspaper to the point that she took the offer to be "helped" by Squiggy's parents to leave state.
My daughter's testimony, however, was sound. Her dad's favorite saying around christmastime was "Santa Claus is a fake, a phony and a fraud." We were good twigites...there was no Tooth Fairy or Easter Bunny or Santa Claus in our home!
There was actual physical evidence in my daughter's case, too. Because I had grown up sexually abused, I had taught my daughter from nearly birth that her body is her own and that NOBODY had the right to touch her private parts or kiss her of fondle her. I also taught her how to fight back and to tell immediately. I promised her I would always believe her.
These things led to my daughter telling immediately. We were at the police station within 10 minutes of picking up my daughter from daycare. There was plenty of physical evidence...and Squiggy was picked up within 30 minutes of us going to the police. According to the police, he was laying on the bed with a grin on his face when he was picked up.
When my daughter testified before an 18 member grand jury, she was grilled by Squiggy's defense and members of the grand jury about her parents telling her to let Squiggy have his way so they could pay him for daycare. I was not allowed into the courtroom because it was assumed that my presence would influence the honesty of her testimony. Every grand juror that came out of the courtroom after she testified told me that they had never before experienced a child so clear-headed as my daughter. They unanimously indicted Squiggy.
Now here's the bugger...
The DA's office contacted me to please rescind my daughter's testimony because Squiggy was being raped in jail and faced worse in prison. Squiggy's family had contacted the DA's office and had pleaded for the charges to be dropped if they agreed to put Squiggy into a treatment program. Since he had already been indicted, there was no dropping the charges unless the testimony was rescinded.
Well, the DA's office did some digging into our history and discovered twi. So they contacted hq. According to the DA's office, they had enough information about my "track record" to dismantle my daughter's testimony and show both her and I to be "quite unstable". In fact, the DA's office was so sure that my daughter and I would be barbequed on the witness stand because twi leadership had provided statements about our impoverished situation and our daughter's lies and other "disturbing behavior" our branch/twig (yeah...the pedophile) leader had witnessed and had tried to "help" our family with "ministerial counseling".
I was IRATE!!!!!!!
I contacted an Alaska State Senator's office.
See next post.
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CoolWaters
The senator did some checking and came back to us with the same story: our "track record" according to twi was one of "questionable character" and "chronic problems with poverty and instability due to their [our] refusal to settle down in one place and listen to sound doctrine." TWI had provided "records" dating clear back to 1976. This was in 1984/85.
I still wouldn't budge. I told the DA's office that there was enough physical evidence and professional testimony that me or my daughter's character had better not become an issue or I'd go outside of Alaska to the press with the story of how Alaska was backing a cult and a pedophile.
It never went to court. Squiggy plead guilty. He got 5 years in prison and 2 years in a treatment facility afterwards. How much time he actually did, we don't know...we left Alaska when we saw that we were going to go through the same thing again with twi.
So it really gets me that there are people on this message board who think that I am lying or am bitter or am hateful against "good men".
BS to the nth degree!
If you read nothing else of this post, read this:
TWI leadership from hq right on down protected pedophiles in Alaska. TWI protect the pedophiles in an attempt to woo a wealthy, influential family into their ranks. TWI provided information they had gathered about me and my family dating clear back to 1976 in an effort to protect their own leadership from any testimony me and my family might give in any future cases against their own leadership.
If you're involved in twi, then you're being tracked, watched and a file is being kept on you. I hope like hell you don't have to find out the same way I found out...but since the pedophile branch/twig leader is still among you, my hope may not prove out.
And if this seems like a "scare tactic", mj, tough. Sometimes fear is a great motivator to do right. Sometimes people should be afraid.
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mj412
No not me
I will not live in fear.
I am wise I am not a fool I am aware of as much as possible of reality in life.
But hate and fear and threats do not take up much space in my life.
I like life I love people I love God. I chose to be happy and to give happiness .
do I think child molesters are in the world? yes with plenty of fools and muders and idiots and generaly unhappy people .
Im not afraid of them . they can not ruin my Joy by living on this earth.
I know lots of heros and I am so happy and proud to be amoung them it seems a true hero seeks approval from a source within to me and not so much outside measures.
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CoolWaters
Nevermind. It's not worth it anymore.
[This message was edited by CoolWaters on March 17, 2004 at 6:44.]
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mj412
I dunno cool water ask Mr. Pawtucket maybe he will give you permission to do what you want to do and you can feel better .
I hope so .
I really do .
yes im an uppity person I do allow what others think of me to put me in a spiral of rage or hate. I chose to love instead, myself and others.
it is only a difference of choice . nothing to wish people to hell for but if it will help you , here have a go and tell me all about your feelings and wishes for me.
it is a message board .
oh I see you edited you wish to tell me to go to hell . maybe next time .
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CoolWaters
mj I did edit my post.
To be mad at you is not worth it anymore. You're not going to listen. You're not going to care about my daughter or any of the other children that were, are and may be exposed to this man. You're not going to do anything but find a way to be "above it all".
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mj412
Cool waters
The difference between the way I think and the way you write things out is this.
Pity truly does not work for my life. I am concened with an action plan . Life is just to short for me to spin wheels and wonder what if and poor people. the world is a torn up unhappy place if you see it as such.. the world is anything we chose it to be for ourself .
I can not support rage or hate . I know every person on this earth and esp those who have been through twi have tremedous ability to overcome troubles and strive and find peace in life.
this message board is truly a honor to those wonderful souls in cyber space.
If you need support and consel for you and your daughter I am not the one but help available for you to seek happiness and peace I do hope you seek and find the help you need... life is a precious thing cool waters and no one deserves to be tormented even one more day , I happen to believe God is able to help you, if you can not many groups and people are on the net to help you and you daughter.
Everyone meets misfortune cool waters your not alone in the journey to feel good and happy in life with the trials it brings.
I hope you do find what your looking for .
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CoolWaters
Oh mj, mj, mj...your need to be better than me is a grand effort.
So you're better than me.
Go for the gusto, girl.
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mj412
Cool waters
I think your better than what you think of yourself .
I read a great deal of pain and hurt and angry feelings in your posts, living with that is not fun I have been there , you can find a way to feel good about yourself cool waters YOU CAN!
I can not control how others recieve me , I can only control my own life and feelings and be open to love and trust .
That is a tough lesson for many folks who think they are not able to control their life and leaving a cult sometimes people will struggle for a while finding what brings you joy.
YOu will find the joy and peace only when you think you deserve it . I can not change that . I accept that .
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Dot Matrix
MJ
I hear your message of love. We all do. I believe, however, it is an over emphasised point of view perhaps.
Like: you have the ability to love everyone who ever caused you harm and who is causing you harm and who will cause you harmin the future.
If you are truly there it is a place to be admired, however, if you loved Cool Waters you would stop applying PRESSURE to her - to be in a "place" she is not capable of being right now or maybe ever. That WOULD BE LOVE to her.
To simply say that you "were not there", it was "her children" and it was "beyond horrid" and that you "understand her pain and will pray" for her -- would IMO be LOVING her. But instead you push a message, that is not realistic to many, to love everyone yet the very nature of ARGUING with an individual in PAIN is NOT loving.
Can't you love her -- where she is -- without trying to force your mandated version of healing down her throat? Can't you love her?
IT seems your need to "be right" and pass along this "love at all costs" message is actually more important to you then the people that have to listen to it. Why? Either you truly believe it or you like to be the messamger of "rise above it all" which is actually an effort to make you "look good" and to NOT take the time to HEAR this woman and to love her where she is.
If you truly want to love someone then let's see this great "place" that you live --in action. Love her and it maybe as simple as stop trying to PUSH her into a place she does not want to be.
I mean, your LOVE message almost seems like you love the people "in TWI" before, you love the people "in now", you love "everyone" because we each (you incl.) made a decison to be there so it is not their fault but the fault of each person.
So, you love the evil doer. Great. Because in this case by not HEARING her and only hearing yourself you are becoming that evil doer.
Let's see some of that love here MJ. Let's really see it -- or you are like a tinkling bell...
Or as brideshead said
"Her words are like bubbles... They entertain for a little while then they burst and there is nothing."
(We posted at the same time. This was to your previous posts)
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Dot Matrix
Cool Waters and Mo
Thank you for having the guts to lay the truth out here for all to read. I am sorry anything happened to all the children, the families and communities.
May God rock you in his arms and dry your tears.
He will listen to all of it as long as you need to cry and talk about it. He loves you.
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mj412
the evil doer message or warning is ok.
But in the real world most are aware of danger .
the fact is I also was hurt by twi. I do not tell my story because it is about moving beyond the pain .
Of course I believe CATcup is so right that this is needed very needed to allow people to see they are not the only ones who have used by twi, that is how you feel like it has to be only you and your bad and evil and deserve it.
I say people deserve to feel good now to make the changes to have a life they want .
This takes the ability to see beyond the rage or the shame and know your ok. regardless of what others may think say or do to you.
If people still have the power over you to manipulate your feelings your honest feelings about yourself , if your very being and happiness is about approval from others let me say the next cult or abuser is just standing in line to hurt you.
it is serious stuff Dot.
it will repeat over and over in life and the victim howl will never end ... Im one who believes the changes to make a positive life after a cult comes from WITHIN these mid frames and thought processes. It is the difference of having a life full of victory and peace and joy and being a victim scraping and howling for help from people they do not trust and who do not care about them .
I see recovery at GS, I see posters who are well and healthy and happy and dare I say continuing a relationship with The father of our creation . I think many achieved this life worth living by realizing the changes in life come from being at peace with what you believe on your own terms. I am not pushing anyone Dot , if cool waters does not want to address her issues with professional help that is her choice . I just know recovery is possible and to live in misery and hate is not good for anyone so I suggested she seeks support . Of course it is always a choice.
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CoolWaters
Thank you {{{{{Dot}}}}}.
I read my horoscope just a couple of minutes ago. Here's what it said:
Hmmmm!
;)-->
Maybe I'm not ready to "accept". Maybe this isn't about acceptance at all, but about the importance of letting parents who are still in twi know exactly what kind of organization they're in.
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