Why comply??? Because if we DIDN`T we were taught that we didn`t want to grow ...didn`t love God, and were bound for destruction.
We all heard the stories time and again how somebody didn`t obey leadership and either got possessed orr died.
There was nothing loving about the intrusion...your true belief not withstanding...sorry.
It was a nasty demaning shamefull experience
As far as it being a cult...it was because there were people that used the bible and God to extort naieve young folks...people who simply wanted to love God...that IS ugly.
We didn`t want to be used .... we were decieved ...
I strongly reject your opinion that it wasn`t about manipulation and control.
So rascal your saying you think many complied out of fear?
ok I believe that is true but it spits in the teaching of pfal does it not? (it was fear in the heart of that mother etc.) It turned into people pleasing and a cult environment for some then I believe that is true.
I complied because I wanted to grow with God...I was told that obedience was required...you know...peter was a great deciple...walked out to meet Jesus cause he obeyed immediatly when Jesus called him......never questioned...never looked at the negatives or 5 sences aspects of the storm and waves....when he stopped obeying thats when he sank...yadda yadda...
I obeyed because i craved to be my best for god....serve him in whatever capacity he needed..i was told that these people could guide me...they lied.
"I am saying I think those who did comply thought it came from someone who cared about them and had their best interests in mind.
If not why would anyone comply? "
--- --- --- --- ---- --- ---- ---- ----
I complied to shut the mother f'er up so he would get off my back and not make an example out of my disobeidence in front of the corps.
So, I wrote in all the 15 minute things and turned it in, because when I didn't; I was screamed at in front of the other corps in the area.
It was not about love -- it was about flying under the radar. Getting him off my back while I figured out "if" and "how" I would leave... And I did shortly after.
"So rascal your saying you think many complied out of fear?
ok I believe that is true but it spits in the teaching of pfal does it not? (it was fear in the heart of that mother etc.) It turned into people pleasing and a cult environment for some then I believe that is true. "
--- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Isn't that what we have all been saying for years? That their actions and what they taught from PFAL were different? Thus the hypocrisy?
VPW taught in front of a large group of WOWs "to keep it in your pants"
As he tore his off at the sweet young thing he offered a drink to in the coach?
We were taught about "abundant sharing" from that little book they handed out in PFAL. Then, they taught us that "corps sponsorship" and the like did not count as the tithe? And Abundant sharing was at least 15% and did not include classes, travel expenses to classes and/or sponsorship?
These are all the reasons some of us recognize TWI as a cult.... But you are not new here, heck you have been involved in these talks and sometimes provided sound logic as to why what they did was awful, not Christ-like, etc.
I guess I am surprised by your response to this thread.
Were you asked to provide some intimate details and the person who asked you was loving? Then, I would understand how you could perceive this invasion of privacy as "loving." However, even under those circumstances, you would be the exception not the rule.
MJ, we are not talking about how a mother questions her kids or how a wife wants some details on "where have you been?" We are talking about people who wanted to stick their noses where they did not belong as an assertion of power.
I am in a church now and there is nothing even close to that as a standard practice -- or even as an occasional practice. It just does not happen outside of TWI and some other controlling groups.
Gosh, compying on the schedules etc. We did it. Cuz we were in God's One True Ministry, and you can't get blessed anywhere else in the entire world. And obeying your spiritual overseers in the Word kept you safe from that Eeevil Adversary, who was just looking for a crack in your wall...
Look at Job, look at how small his crack was, how huge his loss...
If you didn't obey, you weren't meek, you needed to be confronted. Three confrontations on a single issue, and you were gone in my area. LOA. Probation, or M&A
The leaders I had in my last 6 or 7 years in were not loving. They were not friends. I was valuable to them if I complied and made them look good to their upper leadership. I was worthless if I caused any trouble, especially if a branch or Limb co ord. knew of a failing.
As far as my experience, it was ALL about control--making sure you were scheduling intimate spouse time, making sure your house was clean(how about those inspections? fun, huh)
It still gags me, the stuff I allowed, trying to be 'God's Best.'
I remember those sheets we had to fill out in 15 minute increments: Redeemed Time Analysis Sheets.... I still have copies. It is unbelievable what they made us do.
And yes, this was manipulation by fear.
After hanging around TWI and being taught for at least two decades that "no one else has the Word like we do," eventually LCM came out and started teaching that not only does no one have the Word like TWI, but that there was no SAFETY outside the boundaries of "The Household." In otherwords, if you left TWI or were kicked out, that absolutely horrible things would happen to you not only spiritually, but physically as well. He used countless "examples" of how people had died or gotten shot or sick or had horrible tragic things occur "because they left the protection of the household." His wife Donna made a big deal out of the girl who was killed in the plane crash "because her parents left The Way."
Hey, this was doctrine, and we were taught that there was no other God than what TWI taught and that there was no safety outside His "household," which was The Way International, period.
After breaking my ankle in an uncovered trench that TWI left open during the ROA 95, Connie P*n*a*ello had the gall to yell at me and my husband that my ankle was not healing because my husband "didn't love me enough." Never mind the fact that after I broke it, it was nearly 3 hours before they allowed me to seek medical attention and then it was misdiagnosed at the hospital.
M*rK Wa**ace literally screamed at us at the top of his lungs, that if we "did not get a passion for the truth" that I would be "hobbled for life", my husband would "die a lonely old man," and that my daughter would "become a stark raving lunatic." This he actually screamed within earshot of my 11 year old daughter.
This frightened her so much that several months later when I announced that I had decided not to ever go to another fellowship, she became hysterical because she did not want me to be in a wheelchair, she did not want her father to die, and she did not want to go insane.
People in TWI were intimidated into obedience because we didn't want to be outside God's protection and we were taught that the only place to get that was TWI.
It was Gestapo fear tactics and brainwashing.
"Tear out our hearts--- and they will fatally wound you."
“. . . Were people that stupid going into the corps? We were that excited to try and please God and love his people. It was a cult. By its very nature it lures you in with a lie then manifests the lie later on.”
I think, and have said that they were perhaps na?, but I think that many corpse-nazis were also lured by the power and control over others.
Many of us, I would think the majority of followers saw VPW standing by the principles he taught in PFAL.
“VPW taught in front of a large group of WOWs "to keep it in your pants"”
And this was repeated everywhere.
“I am in a church now and there is nothing even close to that as a standard practice -- or even as an occasional practice. It just does not happen outside of TWI and some other controlling groups.”
Your church today, does NOT teach about tithing? Wow. Cool.
That has not been my experience in churches
Bramble-
“Gosh, compying on the schedules etc. We did it. Cuz we were in God's One True Ministry, and you can't get blessed anywhere else in the entire world. And obeying your spiritual overseers in the Word kept you safe from that Eeevil Adversary, who was just looking for a crack in your wall... Look at Job, look at how small his crack was, how huge his loss... If you didn't obey, you weren't meek, you needed to be confronted.”
I certainly saw this. The willingness to ‘confront’ someone, and it only got worse when you answered back with scripture.
“The leaders I had in my last 6 or 7 years in were not loving. They were not friends. I was valuable to them if I complied and made them look good to their upper leadership. I was worthless if I caused any trouble, especially if a branch or Limb co ord. knew of a failing.”
During my 18 years, I saw very few leaders (corpse) who were loving or friends. But to me, it was not about those bone-heads, it was the relationship with Our Heavenly Father that counted.
”As far as my experience, it was ALL about control--making sure you were scheduling intimate spouse time, making sure your house was clean(how about those inspections? fun, huh)”
Cool, your house was inspected? Wow.
Bless you, May our Heavenly Father bless you in everyway, in the wonderful name of His son and our brother Jesus.
Galen
ET1 SS - USN Retired,
Pilgrim of the Ancient Arabic Order Nobles of the mystic shrine.
and
'University of Life' Alumni
"I live in the spirit of prayer. I pray as I walk, when I lie down, and when I rise. And the answers are always coming. Tens of thousands of times have my prayers been answered. When once I am persuaded that a thing is right, I go on praying for it. the great point is never to give up till the answer comes. The great fault of the children of God is, they do not continue in prayer, they do not persevere. If they desire anything for God's glory, they should pray until they get it." - George Mueller
"Many of us, I would think the majority of followers saw VPW standing by the principles he taught in PFAL.
“VPW taught in front of a large group of WOWs "to keep it in your pants"”"
*************************
I can tell you definitively that VPW did NOT stand by the advice he gave his WOWs. As a matter of fact, my sister was booted off the field for pretty much KEEPING that advice when he wanted her to forget all about it in his motor coach.
So please, no lectures on this man's morals.
LCM learned from him very well.
"Tear out our hearts--- and they will fatally wound you."
For myself, I had no idea that joining the Corps would mean a lifetime commitment to jump whenever a TWI leader said "jump." In fact, I went in for the 2-year Recognized thing specifically because I didn't want any long-term thing.
Imagine my surprise when some LC I'd never met called me in to say he wanted to to an "evaluation" of my year after graduation, then gave me a "Redeem the Time" sheet to fill out. When I pointed out that I had graduated Recognized (had the diploma and everything), the LC said, "Doctor never wanted there to be a Recognized Corps." First I'd heard of it!
I politely refused to be evaluated. I probably should have told him where to stuff it instead! Yes, some Corps went into it for the power, others really wanted to be their best for God. We were tricked.
Dear Socks,
YOU did Variation #2???? ????
Way to go, dude. You must have been more spiritual than I. Or at least more flexible!
Well there have been some great points made,I would never have guessed that a group of people could sit through the same bible teachings,classes and training and have such different responces.
Question did anyone use that tidbit we were taught in Christian Motivational Techniques? Answer a question with a question. Since many spoke about the fear motivations that were used to keep people in line I'll use it as an example.
Leader: YOu are going to die a horrible death.
Believer: Chapter and verse please?
Leader: You will get cancer if you don't do so and so
Believer: Are you saying that you are Believing for bad things to happen to a brother or sister in Christ
You are aware that chapter 3 & 4 of PFAL covers negative and positive believing and believing equals receiving one would think you would be praying for me if you thought I was in harms way.
Leader: You will be the devils lunch you will be all alone.
Believer: Well I'm truely puzzled to hear that I better run check my Bible cause I swear it said said God in Christ in me I wonder how could a grad of PFAL have forgotten about God in Christ in me. How could I be alone? I thought christ was seated at the right hand of God and the Bible says that he ever lives to make intersession for us as our advocate. Has He gone on vacation? IT seemed to work well for me especially in the case of public humiliation the best defence is offence sometimes.
LOVE FROM THE DOVE....
Without Coffee I Would Have No Personality At All.
:D--> :D--> Bramble, I was sort of guessing on my list. I was in a pre-reporting era, but it sounds whacky!!!!
Shaz, me??? Flexible?????? I suspect you are FAR and away superior in that category. I had to make up for it with vigorous, sustained, and aggressive effort. :D-->
I was lost in the deep and darkest night. No direction, not a single hope in sight
When I saw a fire burning brightly through the storm that raged above
Shaz, this line from your Tormentor bears repeating: the "Doctor never wanted there to be a Recognized Corps" - uh huh. Right. Yeah, let's find out what DOCTOR REALLY wanted and then we'll REALLY be on firm ground.
As an adult looking back, "Doctor" didn't know jack about what he was doing with married couples, marriage, families, children and the Way Corps. To him, there was always a reason why something didn't work when it didn't work, and it was never his fault or the fault of his plans and programs.
Jamming couples together in tiny trailers at the New Knoxville location was endurable, for awhile, even when they didn't have water, or air conditioning in the summer and they baked in the winter. We were COMMITTED, and could get past that right? ;)-->
But over the years, he kept jamming people in to smaller quarters and reducing privacy. Basically, it lacked dignity. Instead of building slowly, everything was a rush to get it up, get it going. In a word, "cheesey".
All the while intoning "we want everything just the BEST for you". Bull$hit.
Trailers 6 and 7 at the Way Nash were separate trailers for single women and single men. It was like a year round camp out, no space. He used to say that those trailers were "really what the Way Corps was all about". AS they expanded, the idea that people could go back to their trailer rooms and be ALONE always seemed to rub him the wrong way.
I can't blame the guy for everything, but the number of divorces in the Way Corps historically says something about the program.
True, some people would have regardless, and some people perhaps never should have gotten married to begin with, but you're not doing anyone a service running a Christian Leadership program by abusing people.
I was lost in the deep and darkest night. No direction, not a single hope in sight
When I saw a fire burning brightly through the storm that raged above
Bingo, socks---NOTHING was EVER vic's fault!! It was Always something or someone else...hence CG blaming everything and everyone 'CEPT vpw for the failures in da way.....
The time schedule we had to fill out was in advance....not what we did yesterday.
It was to be filled out in advance one week ahead of time and turned in on Thurs nite @ "twig". I refused to do it and "they" loved screaming at me! I had always been exemplary before and willingly so, but this I could not do.
I had a full time job teaching, had 2 teenagers, was "supervising" my elderly father in addition to routine house-hold running duties. I was willing to give them a list of projected activities day by day, but that was it. (I was a list maker anyway) Then I was told that "I" don't tell "them" how I'm supposed to do things!
I had to appear with my tc, bc in front of the "new" lc - I had been in almost exactly 18 years at that time, and was not planning on attending an Advanced Class Seminar on a particular weekend. That was a bone of contention, but not the only one. TC had compassion having known me for 12 of the 18 years, bc was semi-livid (he had calmed down by the time this meeting took place) and the lc listened to what the bc had to say. (He was the only one invited to speak - and he was the only unmarried person there and about 15 years my junior)
LC listened and then asked my why I didn't comply with the list and I told him...I have so many balls to juggle, I can't confine them today to where they are gonna all be next Thursday at 11:15 am! They dismissed me from the room while they discussed it. Mind you....I was a perfectly good little way-fer up to now...never did anything wrong....so I was really sweatting this!
Later they called me in and LC asked why I wasn't going to AC function and I said...I can't be there b/c that is the day my final exam is given and I have to have all the papers done and all final grades handed in on Mon at 8am.
LC then asked why I refused to comply with the list - told him same story....I'll give you a list of things I expect to do, but can't put them in compartments and can't always predict how long some things (like lesson plans and writing tests) will take.
LC decided I was "redeeming my time" quite well and didn't need such a schedule and told the bc to stop pressing for it and accept the generalized list and I just about went through the floor.
Believe me when I tell you that it took all the courage I had to make that statement in the beginning and had belly cramps for the whole week this took to resolve. But, as far as I know, I was the only one who got away with this!
I hear you my sister on the VPW lying. Do you recall that "keep it in your pants" speech?
Then, he was running around looking for girls to get -- LIAR!!
So - I know- you know!
White Dove, sure do love you but…. Geeezzz…
Gosh, I wish we could all be as clever as you... Why didn't we think of in genius ways to stop things like a question with a question? I guess we were all just rubes and lack sophisticated thinking skills.?.?. -->
I don’t mean to be hard on you but GEEEZZZZ, -->anything you can think of, one or more of us tried it. No offense, but your post reminds me of the movie SILKWOOD. Karen Silkwood is going up against the nuclear plant. She thinks that when two people have a fight the wrong person will let the right person win. Her boyfriend says something like, “You think you can just go nose to nose with them and win because you are telling the truth? Life doesn’t work like that.”
And life doesn’t work like your little plays. Unless, of course, Ozzie and Harriet are your twig leaders. I wish it could have been that easy. I say “this” and they can say “that” and the problem is solved. You are obviously a nice guy. But some of us were in very tough situations.
Here you go:
San Diego Corps meeting:
PP tells all of us that we have to give AT LEAST 15 % ( I think he even said the corps was expected to give more that 15% was for the regular believers) and that Corps sponsorship does not count, etc.
So, I brought my little Christians should be Prosperous book with me. I stood up at the corps meeting with my Bible and the little book, and said "Chapter and Verse?"
It was a very gutsy thing to do. A hush came over the meeting and PP told me he didn't have to give me a chapter and verse and he did not care what Christians Should be Prosperous said.
That was MY LAST corps meeting.
So, unlike your scripted version of what would happen in Mayberry, the reality was people stood up and they were mocked, ridiculed, called bad corps, publicly announced the were "possessed" etc.
I stood against an ordained monster of a leader and had an area meeting where the whole danm area was told I was possessed. Vickles was not interested in finding more about VPW in a sexual way after being approached by a "recruiter" and she was thrown out of the corps and then called possessed. (as she mentioned on another thread.)
And here is an example of a TRUE story:
Corps Leader and WOW were WOW together and then remained roommates for two more years. This story is on the third year of being roommates. I will refer to her as a WOW but this is actually two years after she did her WOW commitment.
Leader to WOW:
"I don’t think you should go out with Mark."
WOW
"I like him and he has been going to twig for over a year and I am going with him."
Leader:
"I think you have a defiant spirit."
WOW
"Chapter and verse?"
Leader:
"I am you leader, I get revelation for your life."
WOW
"God, would tell me first."
Wow walks away and goes into the bathroom to get away from it all.
Leader follows her into the bathroom and blocks the doorway. Leader then says, "I think we need to sing a hymn; devil spirits hate God's music let's sing."
WOW
"I do not want to sing."
Leader starts to sing
WOW tried to leave bathroom
WOW
"Let me out of here."
Leader
"No, you are having devil problems."
Wow was stuck in bathroom for over 30 minutes (may have been an hour I forget now)crying and trying to leave.
WOW escapes. Leader yells, "If you do not listen to me, you will marry him and have retarded children."
WOW runs down the street and flags down a passing motorist. Motorist drives WOW to where I work. WOW is sobbing and tells me all sorts of things. She begs me to help her escape the WAY home. Every time she had tried to leave this woman had done these things to her.
WOW is a very good and decent person. She manifested the fruits of the spirit. I believe her.
I hide the woman out.
Wow then tells us how she used to wear make-up and cute little clothes. How the corps leader pushed her into the bathroom and washed the make-up off her face. Called her a whore when she wore cute things and kept her like a scary husband frightens a wife into staying. When WOW went to “above leadership”, that “above leader” called in the "corps leader" (WOW's roommate) who convinced these (5-sense knowledge men) that the WOW had devils.
The leadership then turns on WOW telling her she must listen to “leader” for her own spiritual well being.... She begged me to believe her and I did. There was always something creepy about her “leader” roommate.
I call a corps sister of mine (the wife of an area leader) and we stash WOW.
Wife does not tell her husband as we know husband has a blank allegiance to his superiors and is severely uncool.
My corps sister and I prayed and we knew we could tell nobody what was happening.
Next day, we go to apartment and remove WOW's clothes. We secretly take her to the airport and send her home to her family.
She did not have devils. She just disagreed with corps leadership.
WOW marries Mark and they have four HEALTHY children.
Unfortunately, yours are fairy tales and mine are true stories. I wish the opposite were true. I bet you were nice to the people in your twig so this maybe hard to digest.
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on March 16, 2004 at 13:27.]
I properly avert my eyes from his naked old body... and I leave.
I go back to him after studying the BIBLE and confront him about adultery with the BIBLE.
VPW
"What so ever things are pure.... blaa blaa think on those things."
Like I was wrong because I did not have PURE thoughts about ADULTERY.
I really do not think some folks get it yet. White dove, I think you know it went sour, but somehow you seem to suggest the abuse was manageble had "we said the magic right things" or something. As you suggest in your scripts.
This is the truth:
This inner circle sinned and believed that they lived above the word of God. It was
described to me as a higher plane and only people who "could handle it" were invited to partake. Anyone who objected or reproved their behavior was considered someone who "stumbled" at their freedom in their walk with Christ. Therefore, there was no way to correct them, they exalted themselves as gods deciding what was right and what was wrong. (Genesis 3:5).
This is how I see and saw it. But of course that is through my eyes and my experiences.
I wish you well and if your experiences fall outside of mine, then you can only know in "your area" telling the truth worked. Praise God it worked somewhere! Because it did not where I was. ;)-->
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rascal
Why comply??? Because if we DIDN`T we were taught that we didn`t want to grow ...didn`t love God, and were bound for destruction.
We all heard the stories time and again how somebody didn`t obey leadership and either got possessed orr died.
There was nothing loving about the intrusion...your true belief not withstanding...sorry.
It was a nasty demaning shamefull experience
As far as it being a cult...it was because there were people that used the bible and God to extort naieve young folks...people who simply wanted to love God...that IS ugly.
We didn`t want to be used .... we were decieved ...
I strongly reject your opinion that it wasn`t about manipulation and control.
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mj412
So rascal your saying you think many complied out of fear?
ok I believe that is true but it spits in the teaching of pfal does it not? (it was fear in the heart of that mother etc.) It turned into people pleasing and a cult environment for some then I believe that is true.
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Tom Strange
I don't know if it was all fear... but it was a "ours is not to reason why..." type thing because we were drilled to "never doubt"!!!
oh well... we were in a cult... nowhutahmsain?
It's hard to make that change, When life and love turns strange. And old.
To give a love, you gotta live a love. To live a love, you gotta be "part of". When will I see you again?
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rascal
I complied because I wanted to grow with God...I was told that obedience was required...you know...peter was a great deciple...walked out to meet Jesus cause he obeyed immediatly when Jesus called him......never questioned...never looked at the negatives or 5 sences aspects of the storm and waves....when he stopped obeying thats when he sank...yadda yadda...
I obeyed because i craved to be my best for god....serve him in whatever capacity he needed..i was told that these people could guide me...they lied.
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Tom Strange
we weren't supposed to ask why?... only how high?
saps, weren't we!
:D-->
It's hard to make that change, When life and love turns strange. And old.
To give a love, you gotta live a love. To live a love, you gotta be "part of". When will I see you again?
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Dot Matrix
"I am saying I think those who did comply thought it came from someone who cared about them and had their best interests in mind.
If not why would anyone comply? "
--- --- --- --- ---- --- ---- ---- ----
I complied to shut the mother f'er up so he would get off my back and not make an example out of my disobeidence in front of the corps.
So, I wrote in all the 15 minute things and turned it in, because when I didn't; I was screamed at in front of the other corps in the area.
It was not about love -- it was about flying under the radar. Getting him off my back while I figured out "if" and "how" I would leave... And I did shortly after.
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Dot Matrix
"So rascal your saying you think many complied out of fear?
ok I believe that is true but it spits in the teaching of pfal does it not? (it was fear in the heart of that mother etc.) It turned into people pleasing and a cult environment for some then I believe that is true. "
--- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Isn't that what we have all been saying for years? That their actions and what they taught from PFAL were different? Thus the hypocrisy?
VPW taught in front of a large group of WOWs "to keep it in your pants"
As he tore his off at the sweet young thing he offered a drink to in the coach?
We were taught about "abundant sharing" from that little book they handed out in PFAL. Then, they taught us that "corps sponsorship" and the like did not count as the tithe? And Abundant sharing was at least 15% and did not include classes, travel expenses to classes and/or sponsorship?
These are all the reasons some of us recognize TWI as a cult.... But you are not new here, heck you have been involved in these talks and sometimes provided sound logic as to why what they did was awful, not Christ-like, etc.
I guess I am surprised by your response to this thread.
Were you asked to provide some intimate details and the person who asked you was loving? Then, I would understand how you could perceive this invasion of privacy as "loving." However, even under those circumstances, you would be the exception not the rule.
MJ, we are not talking about how a mother questions her kids or how a wife wants some details on "where have you been?" We are talking about people who wanted to stick their noses where they did not belong as an assertion of power.
I am in a church now and there is nothing even close to that as a standard practice -- or even as an occasional practice. It just does not happen outside of TWI and some other controlling groups.
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frank123lol
By obeying I 1Gave up the old trucks I liked idolatry you know
2Sold my house to rent throw money
away and watch prices sky rocket
3Was made miserable because I was taking classes I did not want to be in
Ect ect ect you get the point
Yes obeying made a big difference in my life
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Dot Matrix
Frank
You were a good little "corps" guy weren't ya?
(I think you were in my corps!?!)
If not, you would have been great corps -- doing what they asked !!!
As
Tom said, we were saps!
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Bramble
Gosh, compying on the schedules etc. We did it. Cuz we were in God's One True Ministry, and you can't get blessed anywhere else in the entire world. And obeying your spiritual overseers in the Word kept you safe from that Eeevil Adversary, who was just looking for a crack in your wall...
Look at Job, look at how small his crack was, how huge his loss...
If you didn't obey, you weren't meek, you needed to be confronted. Three confrontations on a single issue, and you were gone in my area. LOA. Probation, or M&A
The leaders I had in my last 6 or 7 years in were not loving. They were not friends. I was valuable to them if I complied and made them look good to their upper leadership. I was worthless if I caused any trouble, especially if a branch or Limb co ord. knew of a failing.
As far as my experience, it was ALL about control--making sure you were scheduling intimate spouse time, making sure your house was clean(how about those inspections? fun, huh)
It still gags me, the stuff I allowed, trying to be 'God's Best.'
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Catcup
Dot
I remember those sheets we had to fill out in 15 minute increments: Redeemed Time Analysis Sheets.... I still have copies. It is unbelievable what they made us do.
And yes, this was manipulation by fear.
After hanging around TWI and being taught for at least two decades that "no one else has the Word like we do," eventually LCM came out and started teaching that not only does no one have the Word like TWI, but that there was no SAFETY outside the boundaries of "The Household." In otherwords, if you left TWI or were kicked out, that absolutely horrible things would happen to you not only spiritually, but physically as well. He used countless "examples" of how people had died or gotten shot or sick or had horrible tragic things occur "because they left the protection of the household." His wife Donna made a big deal out of the girl who was killed in the plane crash "because her parents left The Way."
Hey, this was doctrine, and we were taught that there was no other God than what TWI taught and that there was no safety outside His "household," which was The Way International, period.
After breaking my ankle in an uncovered trench that TWI left open during the ROA 95, Connie P*n*a*ello had the gall to yell at me and my husband that my ankle was not healing because my husband "didn't love me enough." Never mind the fact that after I broke it, it was nearly 3 hours before they allowed me to seek medical attention and then it was misdiagnosed at the hospital.
M*rK Wa**ace literally screamed at us at the top of his lungs, that if we "did not get a passion for the truth" that I would be "hobbled for life", my husband would "die a lonely old man," and that my daughter would "become a stark raving lunatic." This he actually screamed within earshot of my 11 year old daughter.
This frightened her so much that several months later when I announced that I had decided not to ever go to another fellowship, she became hysterical because she did not want me to be in a wheelchair, she did not want her father to die, and she did not want to go insane.
People in TWI were intimidated into obedience because we didn't want to be outside God's protection and we were taught that the only place to get that was TWI.
It was Gestapo fear tactics and brainwashing.
"Tear out our hearts--- and they will fatally wound you."
Hans Scholl
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Galen
Dot-
“. . . Were people that stupid going into the corps? We were that excited to try and please God and love his people. It was a cult. By its very nature it lures you in with a lie then manifests the lie later on.”
I think, and have said that they were perhaps na?, but I think that many corpse-nazis were also lured by the power and control over others.
Many of us, I would think the majority of followers saw VPW standing by the principles he taught in PFAL.
“VPW taught in front of a large group of WOWs "to keep it in your pants"”
And this was repeated everywhere.
“I am in a church now and there is nothing even close to that as a standard practice -- or even as an occasional practice. It just does not happen outside of TWI and some other controlling groups.”
Your church today, does NOT teach about tithing? Wow. Cool.
That has not been my experience in churches
Bramble-
“Gosh, compying on the schedules etc. We did it. Cuz we were in God's One True Ministry, and you can't get blessed anywhere else in the entire world. And obeying your spiritual overseers in the Word kept you safe from that Eeevil Adversary, who was just looking for a crack in your wall... Look at Job, look at how small his crack was, how huge his loss... If you didn't obey, you weren't meek, you needed to be confronted.”
I certainly saw this. The willingness to ‘confront’ someone, and it only got worse when you answered back with scripture.
“The leaders I had in my last 6 or 7 years in were not loving. They were not friends. I was valuable to them if I complied and made them look good to their upper leadership. I was worthless if I caused any trouble, especially if a branch or Limb co ord. knew of a failing.”
During my 18 years, I saw very few leaders (corpse) who were loving or friends. But to me, it was not about those bone-heads, it was the relationship with Our Heavenly Father that counted.
”As far as my experience, it was ALL about control--making sure you were scheduling intimate spouse time, making sure your house was clean(how about those inspections? fun, huh)”
Cool, your house was inspected? Wow.
Bless you, May our Heavenly Father bless you in everyway, in the wonderful name of His son and our brother Jesus.
Galen
ET1 SS - USN Retired,
Pilgrim of the Ancient Arabic Order Nobles of the mystic shrine.
and
'University of Life' Alumni
"I live in the spirit of prayer. I pray as I walk, when I lie down, and when I rise. And the answers are always coming. Tens of thousands of times have my prayers been answered. When once I am persuaded that a thing is right, I go on praying for it. the great point is never to give up till the answer comes. The great fault of the children of God is, they do not continue in prayer, they do not persevere. If they desire anything for God's glory, they should pray until they get it." - George Mueller
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Catcup
"Many of us, I would think the majority of followers saw VPW standing by the principles he taught in PFAL.
“VPW taught in front of a large group of WOWs "to keep it in your pants"”"
*************************
I can tell you definitively that VPW did NOT stand by the advice he gave his WOWs. As a matter of fact, my sister was booted off the field for pretty much KEEPING that advice when he wanted her to forget all about it in his motor coach.
So please, no lectures on this man's morals.
LCM learned from him very well.
"Tear out our hearts--- and they will fatally wound you."
Hans Scholl
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socks
Was the reporting like this?
:)-->
Dear Diary, Weekly Time Report:
8/2, 11:05 am, "winked at wife"
8/2, 11:06 am, "wife winked back"
8/2, 11:07 am, "Area Boss called, scheduled
meeting to review Happy Household Laundry
report".
8/2, 11:10 am, "wife & I reconvened in
bedroom for weekly Personal Time.
8/2, 11:11 am, "see attached polaroids and
diagrams for details-used Approved
positions # 2, 4 and variation 2 of #5".
8/2, 11:12 am, "interrupted by corps couple in
next bed having argument over proper use
of #9 in an enclosed area. ***Note -
ended Personal Time to notify Area Boss by
phone of the problem***"
8/2, 11:14 am, "returned to complete mandatory
30 minute Personal Time in bedroom.
8/2, 11:45 am, "Personal Time completed.
I was lost in the deep and darkest night. No direction, not a single hope in sight
When I saw a fire burning brightly through the storm that raged above
In the shadows of your warm and tender love.
Chris Rea
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Bramble
Heehee Socks--leaders didn't call after 11 pm in my area. Whee we could relax!
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shazdancer
Dear mj,
For myself, I had no idea that joining the Corps would mean a lifetime commitment to jump whenever a TWI leader said "jump." In fact, I went in for the 2-year Recognized thing specifically because I didn't want any long-term thing.
Imagine my surprise when some LC I'd never met called me in to say he wanted to to an "evaluation" of my year after graduation, then gave me a "Redeem the Time" sheet to fill out. When I pointed out that I had graduated Recognized (had the diploma and everything), the LC said, "Doctor never wanted there to be a Recognized Corps." First I'd heard of it!
I politely refused to be evaluated. I probably should have told him where to stuff it instead! Yes, some Corps went into it for the power, others really wanted to be their best for God. We were tricked.
Dear Socks,
YOU did Variation #2????
????
Way to go, dude. You must have been more spiritual than I. Or at least more flexible!
Dancingly,
Shaz
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WhiteDove
Well there have been some great points made,I would never have guessed that a group of people could sit through the same bible teachings,classes and training and have such different responces.
Question did anyone use that tidbit we were taught in Christian Motivational Techniques? Answer a question with a question. Since many spoke about the fear motivations that were used to keep people in line I'll use it as an example.
Leader: YOu are going to die a horrible death.
Believer: Chapter and verse please?
Leader: You will get cancer if you don't do so and so
Believer: Are you saying that you are Believing for bad things to happen to a brother or sister in Christ
You are aware that chapter 3 & 4 of PFAL covers negative and positive believing and believing equals receiving one would think you would be praying for me if you thought I was in harms way.
Leader: You will be the devils lunch you will be all alone.
Believer: Well I'm truely puzzled to hear that I better run check my Bible cause I swear it said said God in Christ in me I wonder how could a grad of PFAL have forgotten about God in Christ in me. How could I be alone? I thought christ was seated at the right hand of God and the Bible says that he ever lives to make intersession for us as our advocate. Has He gone on vacation? IT seemed to work well for me especially in the case of public humiliation the best defence is offence sometimes.
Without Coffee I Would Have No Personality At All.
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socks
Shaz, me??? Flexible?????? I suspect you are FAR and away superior in that category. I had to make up for it with vigorous, sustained, and aggressive effort.
:D-->
I was lost in the deep and darkest night. No direction, not a single hope in sight
When I saw a fire burning brightly through the storm that raged above
In the shadows of your warm and tender love.
Chris Rea
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socks
Shaz, this line from your Tormentor bears repeating: the "Doctor never wanted there to be a Recognized Corps" - uh huh. Right. Yeah, let's find out what DOCTOR REALLY wanted and then we'll REALLY be on firm ground.
As an adult looking back, "Doctor" didn't know jack about what he was doing with married couples, marriage, families, children and the Way Corps. To him, there was always a reason why something didn't work when it didn't work, and it was never his fault or the fault of his plans and programs.
Jamming couples together in tiny trailers at the New Knoxville location was endurable, for awhile, even when they didn't have water, or air conditioning in the summer and they baked in the winter. We were COMMITTED, and could get past that right?
;)-->
But over the years, he kept jamming people in to smaller quarters and reducing privacy. Basically, it lacked dignity. Instead of building slowly, everything was a rush to get it up, get it going. In a word, "cheesey".
All the while intoning "we want everything just the BEST for you". Bull$hit.
Trailers 6 and 7 at the Way Nash were separate trailers for single women and single men. It was like a year round camp out, no space. He used to say that those trailers were "really what the Way Corps was all about". AS they expanded, the idea that people could go back to their trailer rooms and be ALONE always seemed to rub him the wrong way.
I can't blame the guy for everything, but the number of divorces in the Way Corps historically says something about the program.
True, some people would have regardless, and some people perhaps never should have gotten married to begin with, but you're not doing anyone a service running a Christian Leadership program by abusing people.
I was lost in the deep and darkest night. No direction, not a single hope in sight
When I saw a fire burning brightly through the storm that raged above
In the shadows of your warm and tender love.
Chris Rea
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Bramble
Galen--yes, a branch I was in during the nineties had home inspections and budget inspections. Arg.
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alfakat
Bingo, socks---NOTHING was EVER vic's fault!! It was Always something or someone else...hence CG blaming everything and everyone 'CEPT vpw for the failures in da way.....
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krys
The time schedule we had to fill out was in advance....not what we did yesterday.
It was to be filled out in advance one week ahead of time and turned in on Thurs nite @ "twig". I refused to do it and "they" loved screaming at me! I had always been exemplary before and willingly so, but this I could not do.
I had a full time job teaching, had 2 teenagers, was "supervising" my elderly father in addition to routine house-hold running duties. I was willing to give them a list of projected activities day by day, but that was it. (I was a list maker anyway) Then I was told that "I" don't tell "them" how I'm supposed to do things!
I had to appear with my tc, bc in front of the "new" lc - I had been in almost exactly 18 years at that time, and was not planning on attending an Advanced Class Seminar on a particular weekend. That was a bone of contention, but not the only one. TC had compassion having known me for 12 of the 18 years, bc was semi-livid (he had calmed down by the time this meeting took place) and the lc listened to what the bc had to say. (He was the only one invited to speak - and he was the only unmarried person there and about 15 years my junior)
LC listened and then asked my why I didn't comply with the list and I told him...I have so many balls to juggle, I can't confine them today to where they are gonna all be next Thursday at 11:15 am! They dismissed me from the room while they discussed it. Mind you....I was a perfectly good little way-fer up to now...never did anything wrong....so I was really sweatting this!
Later they called me in and LC asked why I wasn't going to AC function and I said...I can't be there b/c that is the day my final exam is given and I have to have all the papers done and all final grades handed in on Mon at 8am.
LC then asked why I refused to comply with the list - told him same story....I'll give you a list of things I expect to do, but can't put them in compartments and can't always predict how long some things (like lesson plans and writing tests) will take.
LC decided I was "redeeming my time" quite well and didn't need such a schedule and told the bc to stop pressing for it and accept the generalized list and I just about went through the floor.
Believe me when I tell you that it took all the courage I had to make that statement in the beginning and had belly cramps for the whole week this took to resolve. But, as far as I know, I was the only one who got away with this!
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Dot Matrix
Catcup-
I hear you my sister on the VPW lying. Do you recall that "keep it in your pants" speech?
Then, he was running around looking for girls to get -- LIAR!!
So - I know- you know!
White Dove, sure do love you but…. Geeezzz…
Gosh, I wish we could all be as clever as you... Why didn't we think of in genius ways to stop things like a question with a question? I guess we were all just rubes and lack sophisticated thinking skills.?.?.
-->
I don’t mean to be hard on you but GEEEZZZZ,
-->anything you can think of, one or more of us tried it. No offense, but your post reminds me of the movie SILKWOOD. Karen Silkwood is going up against the nuclear plant. She thinks that when two people have a fight the wrong person will let the right person win. Her boyfriend says something like, “You think you can just go nose to nose with them and win because you are telling the truth? Life doesn’t work like that.”
And life doesn’t work like your little plays. Unless, of course, Ozzie and Harriet are your twig leaders. I wish it could have been that easy. I say “this” and they can say “that” and the problem is solved. You are obviously a nice guy. But some of us were in very tough situations.
Here you go:
San Diego Corps meeting:
PP tells all of us that we have to give AT LEAST 15 % ( I think he even said the corps was expected to give more that 15% was for the regular believers) and that Corps sponsorship does not count, etc.
So, I brought my little Christians should be Prosperous book with me. I stood up at the corps meeting with my Bible and the little book, and said "Chapter and Verse?"
It was a very gutsy thing to do. A hush came over the meeting and PP told me he didn't have to give me a chapter and verse and he did not care what Christians Should be Prosperous said.
That was MY LAST corps meeting.
So, unlike your scripted version of what would happen in Mayberry, the reality was people stood up and they were mocked, ridiculed, called bad corps, publicly announced the were "possessed" etc.
I stood against an ordained monster of a leader and had an area meeting where the whole danm area was told I was possessed. Vickles was not interested in finding more about VPW in a sexual way after being approached by a "recruiter" and she was thrown out of the corps and then called possessed. (as she mentioned on another thread.)
And here is an example of a TRUE story:
Corps Leader and WOW were WOW together and then remained roommates for two more years. This story is on the third year of being roommates. I will refer to her as a WOW but this is actually two years after she did her WOW commitment.
Leader to WOW:
"I don’t think you should go out with Mark."
WOW
"I like him and he has been going to twig for over a year and I am going with him."
Leader:
"I think you have a defiant spirit."
WOW
"Chapter and verse?"
Leader:
"I am you leader, I get revelation for your life."
WOW
"God, would tell me first."
Wow walks away and goes into the bathroom to get away from it all.
Leader follows her into the bathroom and blocks the doorway. Leader then says, "I think we need to sing a hymn; devil spirits hate God's music let's sing."
WOW
"I do not want to sing."
Leader starts to sing
WOW tried to leave bathroom
WOW
"Let me out of here."
Leader
"No, you are having devil problems."
Wow was stuck in bathroom for over 30 minutes (may have been an hour I forget now)crying and trying to leave.
WOW escapes. Leader yells, "If you do not listen to me, you will marry him and have retarded children."
WOW runs down the street and flags down a passing motorist. Motorist drives WOW to where I work. WOW is sobbing and tells me all sorts of things. She begs me to help her escape the WAY home. Every time she had tried to leave this woman had done these things to her.
WOW is a very good and decent person. She manifested the fruits of the spirit. I believe her.
I hide the woman out.
Wow then tells us how she used to wear make-up and cute little clothes. How the corps leader pushed her into the bathroom and washed the make-up off her face. Called her a whore when she wore cute things and kept her like a scary husband frightens a wife into staying. When WOW went to “above leadership”, that “above leader” called in the "corps leader" (WOW's roommate) who convinced these (5-sense knowledge men) that the WOW had devils.
The leadership then turns on WOW telling her she must listen to “leader” for her own spiritual well being.... She begged me to believe her and I did. There was always something creepy about her “leader” roommate.
I call a corps sister of mine (the wife of an area leader) and we stash WOW.
Wife does not tell her husband as we know husband has a blank allegiance to his superiors and is severely uncool.
My corps sister and I prayed and we knew we could tell nobody what was happening.
Next day, we go to apartment and remove WOW's clothes. We secretly take her to the airport and send her home to her family.
She did not have devils. She just disagreed with corps leadership.
WOW marries Mark and they have four HEALTHY children.
Unfortunately, yours are fairy tales and mine are true stories. I wish the opposite were true. I bet you were nice to the people in your twig so this maybe hard to digest.
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on March 16, 2004 at 13:27.]
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Dot Matrix
Or here is one
VPW
"Do you swallow?"
I properly avert my eyes from his naked old body... and I leave.
I go back to him after studying the BIBLE and confront him about adultery with the BIBLE.
VPW
"What so ever things are pure.... blaa blaa think on those things."
Like I was wrong because I did not have PURE thoughts about ADULTERY.
I really do not think some folks get it yet. White dove, I think you know it went sour, but somehow you seem to suggest the abuse was manageble had "we said the magic right things" or something. As you suggest in your scripts.
This is the truth:
This inner circle sinned and believed that they lived above the word of God. It was
described to me as a higher plane and only people who "could handle it" were invited to partake. Anyone who objected or reproved their behavior was considered someone who "stumbled" at their freedom in their walk with Christ. Therefore, there was no way to correct them, they exalted themselves as gods deciding what was right and what was wrong. (Genesis 3:5).
This is how I see and saw it. But of course that is through my eyes and my experiences.
I wish you well and if your experiences fall outside of mine, then you can only know in "your area" telling the truth worked. Praise God it worked somewhere! Because it did not where I was.
;)-->
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