quote:Was it so they could hone in on those not having ENOUGH sex in order to "hit" on those people? Kind of like letting TWI know you weren't having enough sex so LCM and his merry band of cohorts could "help out" in that area and be "donors"?
Ya think? Why the very detailed corps application and medical exam. Gotta get leads on who LCM and others could take advantage of and victimize...
"A battle of wits is hardly enjoyable when the other party is unarmed"
Copyright 2004 by the author.All rights reserved. Duplication prohibited
This is weird. In the 70's I happened to see an application for involvement in the Church of Scientology - 17 pages long! They wanted to know if you ever were part of an organization that wanted to destroy scientology (asked it in 3 different ways), they wanted to know the colors of the tints in your eyes, all this detailed stuff. They've had their share of accusations pointed their way.
I was apprentice corps in the early 80's and the corps ap wasn't very long. The most detailed thing they wanted to know was 3 questions about my blood which some GSers say means they didn't want me to fall over dead while jogging. It seems they've gone the way of scientology in part.
"What the hell did they care when you had sex with your spouse (I assume it was for married people)? Was it so they could hone in on those not having ENOUGH sex in order to "hit" on those people? Kind of like letting TWI know you weren't having enough sex so LCM and his merry band of cohorts could "help out" in that area and be "donors"?"
I too remember also those schedule checks, finances etc. Speaking of vacation limits, on top of letting leaders know the wheres, whens, etc., they would tell the limb coord of the state we were going to when we'd be there. And THEN, when we got there we had to call and check in with that limb coord.
Unbelievale.....when hubby and I look back at what we put up with.
I don't recall us being asked about our intimate schedules, but I wouldn't put it past them. :D-->
I do. It seemed to me they were of the opinion that if my ex and I simply had sex enough all of our marital problems would go away. Like everything else, they had it all backwards. Generally intamcy problems are simply a symptom of other martial difficulties.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
Why, the better to blackmail you with. Generally, the more they have on you.......well, the more they can control you.
And if you aren't submissive enough to give them the information they are asking for, then they know they won't be able to control you and they used that to get rid of you.
"Tear out our hearts--- and they will fatally wound you."
Catcup's right - the more ammo they've gathered on you the more they could twist and trap you in their game. They didn't like me cuz I wouldn't play into it - called me "aloof" and "rebellious" - damn straight!
As I saw it anyone who wanted to know my deepest secrets but didn't know me or wanted to take the time to establish a friendship was NOT a friend - they didn't deserve to have that kind of info.
When the crap hit the fan when I was on staff any my (now x) husband was "smoked out" they asked some of the more intimate questions you could imagine - stuff that made me want to vomit. The people we were meeting with were people I barely knew - BT, JM and I forget who else - mostly BT did the asking - it wasn't like anything I'd ever been through. They even wanted to know what we were thinking about when we had sex - how we did it - etc.
I remember one thing they said which I thought was sort of stupid. There was 13 years difference between hubby and I. For me it wasn't a big deal because there was 26 years difference between my parents - no biggie. We married when I was 21 and he was 34. Anyhow, they said that he was attracted to me at that time because I wasn't a "woman" - at 21 I was still girl-like, which to him could have been "boy-like" if he thought about it the wrong way... I thought that was stupid - they never asked they just "went there" - a trap.
============
Not to derail the thread - I have a copy of my Corpse application, including the physical. They didn't ask for details - just a checklist more or less for the doc - it's like a page long - that's it. This is from 1990....
"They even wanted to know what we were thinking about when we had sex - how we did it - etc."
Thanks for sharing Chas.
I believe it is extremely important to keep the information out in public from first hand sources who can document the dehumanizing, invasive treatment TWI is capable of.
When it's not kept out there, people forget how evil these people are. Or others who may never have experienced it find it hard to believe.
You people who had these a$$holes like BT, L & C P, MW, and others in your personal stuff, speak up. Tell them exactly what it was like.
There are people out there who have no idea what you went through at the hands of these friggin monsters.
"Tear out our hearts--- and they will fatally wound you."
Catcup as I said in the other thread my question in understanding was not in believing that these kinds of things were requested or that they went on I just wonder why any one would give them that kind of information?
Goey posted about the MOG thing and while it did take a upward swing on the doctrine level in the 90s it was always present in the way like in the teachings on the higher powers and others. There were people that while I was in the way I respected and trusted some I still would, but we also learned about lock boxes in the way. I would not have shared or done things that I knew to be wrong in doing.
I understand the risks in doing so as Goey outlined also, but none of those things( and they happened to me with the exception of public humiliation) would have been more important than doing what was biblically right.
I remember in Kansas there was a big interest in where everyone stood regarding the way and leadership. Maybe because of the statement that Dr. Wierwille made years ago (as kansas goes so the ministry goes) or maybe because J*hnny T*wns*nd had been here before his ousting. Anyway the Corps here were asked to spy on each other and report back info. It was wrong and so the answer was simple - Can't do it thanks anyway! Sure there was risk and most did not like the outcome but no personal uncomfort is worth doing what you know to be wrong. I figured if I was getting ousted anyway I would want to go out with dignity and before God knowing that I had at least tried to do the right things.
So herein lies my quandary when I hear someone say "I knew it was wrong but I had to do it"or in this case give information that they should never have. I have trouble in understanding why that happened.
LOVE FROM THE DOVE....
Without Coffee I Would Have No Personality At All.
Perhaps you, White Dove, were blessed not to have some of the leaders some of us found ourselves under. It is easy to say, “Gee, I don’t know why anyone would offer up such information…” if your Twig leader was Connie Stevens and your branch leader was Dick Van Dyke. But some of us found ourselves under people akin to Stalin.
Some of us put up with it because we still believed we could “wait it out” and a change would happen.
If you think “well then I would have left.” Then, you were not as committed to the insanity as some of were. That speaks highly of you and speaks loudly about how some of us were stupid, innocent, pressured, hopeful of a change or any other real reason’s we had for believing, staying or succumbing to the insanity.
Consider yourself lucky.
The only thing I can share to show you how this “thinking” or power effects people is to bring up a movie I saw last night on Brenda Geck (true story). She was a horrid person who took in foster kids. She taught them to shop lift, set fires (for insurance money), rape other people in the household etc.
One woman, who helped her set the fires (in building’s Geck owned), wanted out. She told Brenda Geck she would not go on setting fires and things. The next morning, when the woman walked onto her porch, there was a hanging noose to greet her. The message was clear.
Now, I do not think anyone here actually had a noose on their porch but I do know of threats being made such as “if you do not comply, your children will be retarded, someone in your family will die as you have walked outside the protection of God, or YOU would die as you left God’s ministry." IT was not an actual noose but just as powerful.
Kirstie Alley and Will Patton star in this movie based on a true story about a woman, regarded by her neighbors as a devoted mother and pillar of her community, who is accused of heinous crimes, including being the mastermind of a crime family for more than 20 years. Rating: TVPG-LV
In her upscale neighborhood of nice homes and manicured lawns, Brenda Geck (Alley) is considered a model citizen. She is a devoted mother and wife who opens her home to foster children, runs a successful real estate business, regularly attends church with her family and generously volunteers her time to local organizations. Even the mayor and local police applaud Geck for her good deeds and acts of kindness. The last thing her neighbors would think is that their local society matron is, in fact, hiding many secrets in her house.
It is not until one woman, Marie Devereaux (Deanna Milligan), comes forward with the truth -- that behind Geck's public persona is an evil sociopath -- that Geck's reign of terror finally comes to an end. The Geck family took in Marie and her mother when Marie was just an infant. But finally, after years of physical and emotional abuse at the hands of Brenda and her family, Marie finds the courage to escape and turns to assistant attorney general Philip Rothman (Patton). She confides her incredible story of what really went on in the Geck household, including robbery, rape, arson, insurance fraud and kidnapping.
Now, Rothman begins the investigation of his career -- seeking to prove the allegations against Brenda Geck and her children, who did their mother's bidding under threats of violence if they refused, and show that anyone can fool everyone if they project the right image.
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on March 15, 2004 at 15:24.]
I actualy know people capable of huge secrets within their families.
It seems to me "normal" people do not want to such information about their neighbors ya know ? I do not want someone eles garbage in my house or mind.
Didnt vpw say it was fear that caused bad things to happen?
I have thought about this alot as I have known folks who truly believe control is Love , the oldest child in a family often takes the leadership role on and honestly believe they know what is best for everyone. for a lifetime where as a child that is younger can not accept taking charge or make decision as well.
Why would twi need to know your details?
Was it for love to help your life be blessed or was it to use against you if they had to have control?
Yes I think fear of having them not like you anymore motivates many in twi, but who has the problem in that situation?
I mean do we all get to the point where what is most important to us become our priorities sooner or later ?
people wanted leaders they wanted others to control and decide till they got enough to decide for themselves what will work for their life. Maybe it works for some still . How is it wrong if it works for you ?
I do not know what their motive is or was for such a detailed scedule of a persons life but I do know it may be because people wnated it asked for it and the leaders did it in love.
love is not defined very clearly untill it is for you personaly and it takes a lifetime to do that.
Maybe that was true for you mj....but as far as most of the rest of us are concerned...Thats a load of crap ...I neither asked nor wanted leadership to make my decisions..They took over ...siezed control....and if you didn`t accept it was because you weren`t spiritual enough.... you didn`t love God enough to want to grow.
I wanted to grow with God...I wanted to be a better person...implicit obedience to leadership was an absolute necessity to accomplish that...so I shut up and submittted...whatever it took...no matter how I felt personally...I wanted to be a better child of God.
Obediance was many times demeaning and very shamefull...to suggest that one *wanted* these intrusions in our lives ... that we needed someone to make our choices is rediculous.
To my understanding those types of detailed schedules were not about LOVE but about more control.
When you work in the corporate world and you are not meeting expectations they put you on an "action" plan. This is to have you do certain things to "improve". The corporate "action plan" is another way of warning the person they were going to loose their job. It was not "loving". Yet, it was more loving than the schedules TWI handed out.
One schedule I had to fill out in the corps (on the field under a Stalin) was like a 15-minute diary. It was something like a sheet with every 15 minutes accounted for.
I did not do it and became like the kid with cooties. I was confronted at a meeting. If I recall then, I just made things up and wrote them in the sheet and handed it in. Like I can write down on a sheet every 15 minutes at work on a sheet to give to a ministry? Give me a break.
I suppose there are some people out there, maybe a limited few, that actually want their lives that planned for them. BUT this was not something I ever asked for, nor any of my friends.
Let us remember this is America, we should not have to give that kind of detailed explaination to anyone -- especially if you are not getting a paycheck.
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on March 15, 2004 at 15:28.]
Dot Dot my friend My post was not intented to be about me you should know me better than that.
I'm sorry if it appeared that way to you, I can only write from my experiences and am admittedly not the best at doing that. In any case I certainly don't think of myself as particularly wise and any wisdom I do have surely is by the grace of God or through His words the Bible.
Yes I would have to say I was fortunate to have worked with some pretty good people through the years but not all of the leaders were as pleasant to work with as EX-10 and her hubby were. WE had our share of Jr gestapo also.
I too believed that a change would happen, but I also knew that it would not happen by supporting more error,hurt,wrong teaching and so on. It was clear to me that the only hope for genuine change to happen was to turn our thoughts and hearts toward God and His word and some sort of biblical practice.
It was also clear that the leadership from The Way International had not, and were not, fulfilling their responsibilities before God. They had admitted it publicly and in letters and it remains documented to this day. There was little question by them or anybody there that the ministry was not really "moving the word" at best they were covering their mistakes and asses.
I agree I was not committed to insanity but I was committed to the Way and would have liked to see a change, at least at that point. That said our greater committment I thought should have been and remains now to God. I have no interest in speaking highly of me nor unhighly of anyone else. I only seek to understand why the things that happened Did!! First for my own understanding and second as we are reminded by our fellow poster here "The Lessons repeat until they are learned" My hope in understanding is that these lessons will not be repeated.
LOVE FROM THE DOVE....
Without Coffee I Would Have No Personality At All.
Some do consider it love and many still do think it is neccesary"mutitude of counselors" and all.
The corps was a volunteer program people knew other corps and wanted the ability to become leaders for the way. I think to complain about something most did know was required by the organization you represent is not honest.
It is true consequences happened but when we make decisions of any sort consequences happen and I do think the corps folks knew by the time they where that involved what could happen.
they didnt offer the class and the next day say now fill out this information it was for the ones who wanted to move up the way tree and that demanded alot and those interested may have been foolish to think it was something other than what it is.
I know many who went in and came right back out for different reasoning . In a job of course a pay check is involved and we consider the facts but the way corps was also a commintment to the way ministry (or to God if you want to look at it that way I never did)they wanted you to take seriously .
Where people that stupid going in? or did they consider what they were doing and think about what it meant? Once in I do believe it was to much but I think that because of the storys I heard about how it was in the corps... Im certain others knew as well whether they believed it is another story .
I wouldnt do it but I knew those who did put up with alot of crap and claimed to like it untill they did not and it went to far .
Is that not growing up and true of any thing we decide to do?
I know of someone who lost her job and career of 20 years for a six month stit as a way ambassador.. I wouldnt do it not now BUT she made the choice and is paying some heavy dues for it , she claims it was worth it . It is up to the person I think to decide how and who runs their life but bottom line is no one is forced to do something , they may tell you God will Love you more for it I never believed that line of thought ever I never bought that corps was wiser if anything I thought they were less wise and unable to maintian a healthy life that is why they went into the way tree and asked for help to feel better .
In fact I was told by clergy the fact is way corps folks were often tormented by "devil spirits" because of their work in The Way for God.. that was another reason I said to heck with that crap to serve God and be attacked and say it is all for a good cause NEVER made much sense to me.
different I guess .
I still believe God blesses His people and people are just people always have , it seems many mix those facts up.
quote: Catcup as I said in the other thread my question in understanding was not in believing that these kinds of things were requested or that they went on I just wonder why any one would give them that kind of information?
And
quote:the Corps here were asked to spy on each other and report back info. It was wrong and so the answer was simple - Can't do it thanks anyway! Sure there was risk and most did not like the outcome but no personal uncomfort is worth doing what you know to be wrong. I figured if I was getting ousted anyway I would want to go out with dignity and before God knowing that I had at least tried to do the right things.
So herein lies my quandary when I hear someone say "I knew it was wrong but I had to do it"or in this case give information that they should never have. I have trouble in understanding why that happened.
It reads to me like YOU are speaking for YOURSELF in that YOU were in a Quandry and unable to understand why others would feel or say, "I knew it was wrong but I had to do it"
I was just trying to anwser your question. No hard feelings.
It just read like you could not understand "how" some people were giving this "information" to their leaders. I was sharing with you "how" the pressure applies and "why" some people did give the leaders the information they asked for.
Again, if you did not, you either had nicer leaders, were stronger than some of us -- and that is a good thing that you did not follow the "cult" hook line and sinker. Some of us did. Therefore, some people did turn over reports on how much they tithed, had sex, what they did every 15 minutes....
I wish I had not been as broken down as I was, and I am sure many others look back and laugh/cry at how they could hand over such personal information. You are lucky you came through all this with some balls left. Many did not.
Proud that you did not bow. That was a stand well taken and to be admired.
I am merely explaining how some people felt like they were standing to "turn the information over" or how they were too broken down to fight, etc.
Praise God you left the ministry "in tact".
No point of contention, just trying to answer your post.
Were people that stupid going into the corps? We were that excited to try and please God and love his people. It was a cult. By its very nature it lures you in with a lie then manifests the lie later on.
I, personally went in excited, became dissappointed, stupid in some areas perhaps, then I left.
Yes, people gave intimate details of their lives to "leaders" you can think it was because they asked from a loving heart if you choose to --
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on March 15, 2004 at 16:25.]
I had to accountfor traveling to see my fiance (times,dates,where I was staying, for my debt,how long I would be gone, why I missed fellowship, couldnt miss a class either.
That was my question When the pressure was applied to us how or why were there different responces and what was the reasoning? I know my reasoning and responce but it is limited I wanted to draw on others to increase my understanding in this. I think it will be very valuable in helping others under pressure. Thanks You know I think the world of you ....
LOVE FROM THE DOVE....
Without Coffee I Would Have No Personality At All.
[This message was edited by WhiteDove on March 15, 2004 at 16:46.]
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pjroberge
Ya think? Why the very detailed corps application and medical exam. Gotta get leads on who LCM and others could take advantage of and victimize...
"A battle of wits is hardly enjoyable when the other party is unarmed"
Copyright 2004 by the author.All rights reserved. Duplication prohibited
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krys
Reason? What reason? They didn't need no steekin' reason!
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johniam
This is weird. In the 70's I happened to see an application for involvement in the Church of Scientology - 17 pages long! They wanted to know if you ever were part of an organization that wanted to destroy scientology (asked it in 3 different ways), they wanted to know the colors of the tints in your eyes, all this detailed stuff. They've had their share of accusations pointed their way.
I was apprentice corps in the early 80's and the corps ap wasn't very long. The most detailed thing they wanted to know was 3 questions about my blood which some GSers say means they didn't want me to fall over dead while jogging. It seems they've gone the way of scientology in part.
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dmiller
LTL -- a quote from your post --
"What the hell did they care when you had sex with your spouse (I assume it was for married people)? Was it so they could hone in on those not having ENOUGH sex in order to "hit" on those people? Kind of like letting TWI know you weren't having enough sex so LCM and his merry band of cohorts could "help out" in that area and be "donors"?"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not only do I find that COMPLETELY PLAUSIBLE
I would be willing to bet on it!
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D-->
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Two Cats
I too remember also those schedule checks, finances etc. Speaking of vacation limits, on top of letting leaders know the wheres, whens, etc., they would tell the limb coord of the state we were going to when we'd be there. And THEN, when we got there we had to call and check in with that limb coord.
Unbelievale.....when hubby and I look back at what we put up with.
I don't recall us being asked about our intimate schedules, but I wouldn't put it past them.
:D-->
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Abigail
I do. It seemed to me they were of the opinion that if my ex and I simply had sex enough all of our marital problems would go away. Like everything else, they had it all backwards. Generally intamcy problems are simply a symptom of other martial difficulties.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
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Catcup
Why did they want all that private information?
Why, the better to blackmail you with. Generally, the more they have on you.......well, the more they can control you.
And if you aren't submissive enough to give them the information they are asking for, then they know they won't be able to control you and they used that to get rid of you.
"Tear out our hearts--- and they will fatally wound you."
Hans Scholl
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ChasUFarley
Catcup's right - the more ammo they've gathered on you the more they could twist and trap you in their game. They didn't like me cuz I wouldn't play into it - called me "aloof" and "rebellious" - damn straight!
As I saw it anyone who wanted to know my deepest secrets but didn't know me or wanted to take the time to establish a friendship was NOT a friend - they didn't deserve to have that kind of info.
When the crap hit the fan when I was on staff any my (now x) husband was "smoked out" they asked some of the more intimate questions you could imagine - stuff that made me want to vomit. The people we were meeting with were people I barely knew - BT, JM and I forget who else - mostly BT did the asking - it wasn't like anything I'd ever been through. They even wanted to know what we were thinking about when we had sex - how we did it - etc.
I remember one thing they said which I thought was sort of stupid. There was 13 years difference between hubby and I. For me it wasn't a big deal because there was 26 years difference between my parents - no biggie. We married when I was 21 and he was 34. Anyhow, they said that he was attracted to me at that time because I wasn't a "woman" - at 21 I was still girl-like, which to him could have been "boy-like" if he thought about it the wrong way... I thought that was stupid - they never asked they just "went there" - a trap.
============
Not to derail the thread - I have a copy of my Corpse application, including the physical. They didn't ask for details - just a checklist more or less for the doc - it's like a page long - that's it. This is from 1990....
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Catcup
Hey, did you just read that?
Chas said:
"They even wanted to know what we were thinking about when we had sex - how we did it - etc."
Thanks for sharing Chas.
I believe it is extremely important to keep the information out in public from first hand sources who can document the dehumanizing, invasive treatment TWI is capable of.
When it's not kept out there, people forget how evil these people are. Or others who may never have experienced it find it hard to believe.
You people who had these a$$holes like BT, L & C P, MW, and others in your personal stuff, speak up. Tell them exactly what it was like.
There are people out there who have no idea what you went through at the hands of these friggin monsters.
"Tear out our hearts--- and they will fatally wound you."
Hans Scholl
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WhiteDove
Catcup as I said in the other thread my question in understanding was not in believing that these kinds of things were requested or that they went on I just wonder why any one would give them that kind of information?
Goey posted about the MOG thing and while it did take a upward swing on the doctrine level in the 90s it was always present in the way like in the teachings on the higher powers and others. There were people that while I was in the way I respected and trusted some I still would, but we also learned about lock boxes in the way. I would not have shared or done things that I knew to be wrong in doing.
I understand the risks in doing so as Goey outlined also, but none of those things( and they happened to me with the exception of public humiliation) would have been more important than doing what was biblically right.
I remember in Kansas there was a big interest in where everyone stood regarding the way and leadership. Maybe because of the statement that Dr. Wierwille made years ago (as kansas goes so the ministry goes) or maybe because J*hnny T*wns*nd had been here before his ousting. Anyway the Corps here were asked to spy on each other and report back info. It was wrong and so the answer was simple - Can't do it thanks anyway! Sure there was risk and most did not like the outcome but no personal uncomfort is worth doing what you know to be wrong. I figured if I was getting ousted anyway I would want to go out with dignity and before God knowing that I had at least tried to do the right things.
So herein lies my quandary when I hear someone say "I knew it was wrong but I had to do it"or in this case give information that they should never have. I have trouble in understanding why that happened.
Without Coffee I Would Have No Personality At All.
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Dot Matrix
Perhaps you, White Dove, were blessed not to have some of the leaders some of us found ourselves under. It is easy to say, “Gee, I don’t know why anyone would offer up such information…” if your Twig leader was Connie Stevens and your branch leader was Dick Van Dyke. But some of us found ourselves under people akin to Stalin.
Some of us put up with it because we still believed we could “wait it out” and a change would happen.
If you think “well then I would have left.” Then, you were not as committed to the insanity as some of were. That speaks highly of you and speaks loudly about how some of us were stupid, innocent, pressured, hopeful of a change or any other real reason’s we had for believing, staying or succumbing to the insanity.
Consider yourself lucky.
The only thing I can share to show you how this “thinking” or power effects people is to bring up a movie I saw last night on Brenda Geck (true story). She was a horrid person who took in foster kids. She taught them to shop lift, set fires (for insurance money), rape other people in the household etc.
One woman, who helped her set the fires (in building’s Geck owned), wanted out. She told Brenda Geck she would not go on setting fires and things. The next morning, when the woman walked onto her porch, there was a hanging noose to greet her. The message was clear.
Now, I do not think anyone here actually had a noose on their porch but I do know of threats being made such as “if you do not comply, your children will be retarded, someone in your family will die as you have walked outside the protection of God, or YOU would die as you left God’s ministry." IT was not an actual noose but just as powerful.
http://www.wishtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=1702906
Kirstie Alley and Will Patton star in this movie based on a true story about a woman, regarded by her neighbors as a devoted mother and pillar of her community, who is accused of heinous crimes, including being the mastermind of a crime family for more than 20 years. Rating: TVPG-LV
In her upscale neighborhood of nice homes and manicured lawns, Brenda Geck (Alley) is considered a model citizen. She is a devoted mother and wife who opens her home to foster children, runs a successful real estate business, regularly attends church with her family and generously volunteers her time to local organizations. Even the mayor and local police applaud Geck for her good deeds and acts of kindness. The last thing her neighbors would think is that their local society matron is, in fact, hiding many secrets in her house.
It is not until one woman, Marie Devereaux (Deanna Milligan), comes forward with the truth -- that behind Geck's public persona is an evil sociopath -- that Geck's reign of terror finally comes to an end. The Geck family took in Marie and her mother when Marie was just an infant. But finally, after years of physical and emotional abuse at the hands of Brenda and her family, Marie finds the courage to escape and turns to assistant attorney general Philip Rothman (Patton). She confides her incredible story of what really went on in the Geck household, including robbery, rape, arson, insurance fraud and kidnapping.
Now, Rothman begins the investigation of his career -- seeking to prove the allegations against Brenda Geck and her children, who did their mother's bidding under threats of violence if they refused, and show that anyone can fool everyone if they project the right image.
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on March 15, 2004 at 15:24.]
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mj412
I saw that movie .
I actualy know people capable of huge secrets within their families.
It seems to me "normal" people do not want to such information about their neighbors ya know ? I do not want someone eles garbage in my house or mind.
Didnt vpw say it was fear that caused bad things to happen?
I have thought about this alot as I have known folks who truly believe control is Love , the oldest child in a family often takes the leadership role on and honestly believe they know what is best for everyone. for a lifetime where as a child that is younger can not accept taking charge or make decision as well.
Why would twi need to know your details?
Was it for love to help your life be blessed or was it to use against you if they had to have control?
Yes I think fear of having them not like you anymore motivates many in twi, but who has the problem in that situation?
I mean do we all get to the point where what is most important to us become our priorities sooner or later ?
people wanted leaders they wanted others to control and decide till they got enough to decide for themselves what will work for their life. Maybe it works for some still . How is it wrong if it works for you ?
I do not know what their motive is or was for such a detailed scedule of a persons life but I do know it may be because people wnated it asked for it and the leaders did it in love.
love is not defined very clearly untill it is for you personaly and it takes a lifetime to do that.
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rascal
Maybe that was true for you mj....but as far as most of the rest of us are concerned...Thats a load of crap ...I neither asked nor wanted leadership to make my decisions..They took over ...siezed control....and if you didn`t accept it was because you weren`t spiritual enough.... you didn`t love God enough to want to grow.
I wanted to grow with God...I wanted to be a better person...implicit obedience to leadership was an absolute necessity to accomplish that...so I shut up and submittted...whatever it took...no matter how I felt personally...I wanted to be a better child of God.
Obediance was many times demeaning and very shamefull...to suggest that one *wanted* these intrusions in our lives ... that we needed someone to make our choices is rediculous.
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Tom Strange
ooooh Dot!
Godwin's Law!
It's hard to make that change, When life and love turns strange. And old.
To give a love, you gotta live a love. To live a love, you gotta be "part of". When will I see you again?
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Dot Matrix
To my understanding those types of detailed schedules were not about LOVE but about more control.
When you work in the corporate world and you are not meeting expectations they put you on an "action" plan. This is to have you do certain things to "improve". The corporate "action plan" is another way of warning the person they were going to loose their job. It was not "loving". Yet, it was more loving than the schedules TWI handed out.
One schedule I had to fill out in the corps (on the field under a Stalin) was like a 15-minute diary. It was something like a sheet with every 15 minutes accounted for.
I did not do it and became like the kid with cooties. I was confronted at a meeting. If I recall then, I just made things up and wrote them in the sheet and handed it in. Like I can write down on a sheet every 15 minutes at work on a sheet to give to a ministry? Give me a break.
I suppose there are some people out there, maybe a limited few, that actually want their lives that planned for them. BUT this was not something I ever asked for, nor any of my friends.
Let us remember this is America, we should not have to give that kind of detailed explaination to anyone -- especially if you are not getting a paycheck.
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on March 15, 2004 at 15:28.]
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Dot Matrix
Tom - okay I will change it to Stalin!
:)-->
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Tom Strange
It's hard to make that change, When life and love turns strange. And old.
To give a love, you gotta live a love. To live a love, you gotta be "part of". When will I see you again?
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WhiteDove
Dot Dot my friend My post was not intented to be about me you should know me better than that.
I'm sorry if it appeared that way to you, I can only write from my experiences and am admittedly not the best at doing that. In any case I certainly don't think of myself as particularly wise and any wisdom I do have surely is by the grace of God or through His words the Bible.
Yes I would have to say I was fortunate to have worked with some pretty good people through the years but not all of the leaders were as pleasant to work with as EX-10 and her hubby were. WE had our share of Jr gestapo also.
I too believed that a change would happen, but I also knew that it would not happen by supporting more error,hurt,wrong teaching and so on. It was clear to me that the only hope for genuine change to happen was to turn our thoughts and hearts toward God and His word and some sort of biblical practice.
It was also clear that the leadership from The Way International had not, and were not, fulfilling their responsibilities before God. They had admitted it publicly and in letters and it remains documented to this day. There was little question by them or anybody there that the ministry was not really "moving the word" at best they were covering their mistakes and asses.
I agree I was not committed to insanity but I was committed to the Way and would have liked to see a change, at least at that point. That said our greater committment I thought should have been and remains now to God. I have no interest in speaking highly of me nor unhighly of anyone else. I only seek to understand why the things that happened Did!! First for my own understanding and second as we are reminded by our fellow poster here "The Lessons repeat until they are learned" My hope in understanding is that these lessons will not be repeated.
Without Coffee I Would Have No Personality At All.
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mj412
Some do consider it love and many still do think it is neccesary"mutitude of counselors" and all.
The corps was a volunteer program people knew other corps and wanted the ability to become leaders for the way. I think to complain about something most did know was required by the organization you represent is not honest.
It is true consequences happened but when we make decisions of any sort consequences happen and I do think the corps folks knew by the time they where that involved what could happen.
they didnt offer the class and the next day say now fill out this information it was for the ones who wanted to move up the way tree and that demanded alot and those interested may have been foolish to think it was something other than what it is.
I know many who went in and came right back out for different reasoning . In a job of course a pay check is involved and we consider the facts but the way corps was also a commintment to the way ministry (or to God if you want to look at it that way I never did)they wanted you to take seriously .
Where people that stupid going in? or did they consider what they were doing and think about what it meant? Once in I do believe it was to much but I think that because of the storys I heard about how it was in the corps... Im certain others knew as well whether they believed it is another story .
I wouldnt do it but I knew those who did put up with alot of crap and claimed to like it untill they did not and it went to far .
Is that not growing up and true of any thing we decide to do?
I know of someone who lost her job and career of 20 years for a six month stit as a way ambassador.. I wouldnt do it not now BUT she made the choice and is paying some heavy dues for it , she claims it was worth it . It is up to the person I think to decide how and who runs their life but bottom line is no one is forced to do something , they may tell you God will Love you more for it I never believed that line of thought ever I never bought that corps was wiser if anything I thought they were less wise and unable to maintian a healthy life that is why they went into the way tree and asked for help to feel better .
In fact I was told by clergy the fact is way corps folks were often tormented by "devil spirits" because of their work in The Way for God.. that was another reason I said to heck with that crap to serve God and be attacked and say it is all for a good cause NEVER made much sense to me.
different I guess .
I still believe God blesses His people and people are just people always have , it seems many mix those facts up.
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Dot Matrix
White Dove you said
And
It reads to me like YOU are speaking for YOURSELF in that YOU were in a Quandry and unable to understand why others would feel or say, "I knew it was wrong but I had to do it"
I was just trying to anwser your question. No hard feelings.
It just read like you could not understand "how" some people were giving this "information" to their leaders. I was sharing with you "how" the pressure applies and "why" some people did give the leaders the information they asked for.
Again, if you did not, you either had nicer leaders, were stronger than some of us -- and that is a good thing that you did not follow the "cult" hook line and sinker. Some of us did. Therefore, some people did turn over reports on how much they tithed, had sex, what they did every 15 minutes....
I wish I had not been as broken down as I was, and I am sure many others look back and laugh/cry at how they could hand over such personal information. You are lucky you came through all this with some balls left. Many did not.
Proud that you did not bow. That was a stand well taken and to be admired.
I am merely explaining how some people felt like they were standing to "turn the information over" or how they were too broken down to fight, etc.
Praise God you left the ministry "in tact".
No point of contention, just trying to answer your post.
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Dot Matrix
MJ
We do not see eye to eye on this.
Were people that stupid going into the corps? We were that excited to try and please God and love his people. It was a cult. By its very nature it lures you in with a lie then manifests the lie later on.
I, personally went in excited, became dissappointed, stupid in some areas perhaps, then I left.
Yes, people gave intimate details of their lives to "leaders" you can think it was because they asked from a loving heart if you choose to --
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on March 15, 2004 at 16:25.]
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likeaneagle
I had to accountfor traveling to see my fiance (times,dates,where I was staying, for my debt,how long I would be gone, why I missed fellowship, couldnt miss a class either.
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WhiteDove
Dot GOOD I'm glad
:)-->
And you said clearly what I could not thanks.
That was my question When the pressure was applied to us how or why were there different responces and what was the reasoning? I know my reasoning and responce but it is limited I wanted to draw on others to increase my understanding in this. I think it will be very valuable in helping others under pressure. Thanks You know I think the world of you ....
Without Coffee I Would Have No Personality At All.
[This message was edited by WhiteDove on March 15, 2004 at 16:46.]
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WhiteDove
MJ an interesting responce but I have to agree with most here I don't know of anyone that has enjoyed this intrusion. Not one!
Without Coffee I Would Have No Personality At All.
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