I tried, Oldies. And here I am. If I hadn't done it by choice I would have been thrown out anyway. A real God won't tolerate questions or requests for clarification, you know. A real God doesn't apologize or admit when His chosen few are wrong ~ He just changes His point of view to match theirs and woe be to anyone who can't get into the new way of thinking. Why does anyone who worships VPW bother coming around here? There are ofshoots on every street corner who will be happy to cater to your fantasies.
On the subject ~ I agree with all who said that any time anyone does something better than TWI it is held up to scorn and there is usually an accusation of "seed" thrown at it. Anybody who can play guitar better than Harve is possessed ~ just to name an example. They just can't admit it's a halfbaked ministry full of mediocre intellects and talents so the excuses and accusations fly like machinegun fire.
I used to have an open mind but my brains kept falling out.
TWI pharisees would say "Crucify Him! We want Barabbas!" And so would their mob-minded-faithful-TWIhousehold-followers. (Nobody in TWI would recognize the TRUE son of the Father.)
If Jesus faced TWI today, this is what He would say,
Those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them--do you think that they were more guilty offenders than all of you?
I tell you, No; but unless you repent, change your mind for the better and heartily amend your ways, with abhorrence of your past sins, you will all likewise perish...
For years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree and I find none. Cut it down! Why should it continue also to use up the ground, to deplete the soil, intercept the sun, and take up room? (Luke 13)
quote:Oldies....John Ritcheson did precisely as you recomend....reread HIS letters and replies from the current president....read about the consequences of HIS letters.
I have to wonder in your pushing innies to write and reveal themselves....is there some REASON why you want them discovered and ousted?
Rascal, it seems to me that John did the right thing by speaking his mind. I'll be honest with you guys, I don't know about this secretive lifestyle in TWI-2 where you have to be a victim, keep quiet, and can't speak your mind and ask questions otherwise you'd be outed and thrown out. Hey, under those conditions, maybe its better if you get thrown out?
Old Shakes said "to thine ownself be true". I think its a better lifestyle than complaining about TWI-2 that you're in a prison and can't move. I'd free myself, but that's me.
OM, it's been stated many times before, that the innie posters/lurkers here have their reasons for staying in.
It's been demonstrated time and again that families end up getting broken apart, ripped asunder, when an innie gets thrown out. Many of the innie posters here don't want to lose their families/loved ones.
And yes, it is STILL happening, even in the "kinder, gentler" TWI.
Hmmm, I expected a flood of responses to my challenge.
I could reduce the standards of decency, honesty and common sense. How about:
"anyone who bribed someone to get The Way Nash to make a substantial change in policy, practice or doctrine, on a ministry wide level and actually saw the change...please come forward anonymously".
Or same as above, with "but left after their bribe was taken but no action resulted"...
I don't know if Zix beat me to this, what with his fondness for Orson Scott Card and all, but here's a statement with which I cannot argue.
quote:Here's the truth: Any movie can fail. There was no guarantee. Gibson spent $24,000,000 of his own money, put his own talent and reputation on the line, did not put any stars in his movie, and had no major distributor sharing the financial burden. No one in the history of film has ever taken such a personal risk.
He made a bet that Christians would support an excellent film about the death of Christ. He had no takers. And when he turned out to be right after all, it is stupid and mean-spirited to accuse him of having financial gain as his motive.
The movie was great to portray the PASSION of the Christ. This also is very important to our life today. You can't have a resurrection without a death. Here are some song lyrics that I think help to understand our NEED for our Savior. Please don't let the trinitarian innuendos twist your shorts. Please see the beauty of the song.
Here I Am To Worship
Light of the World, You stepped down into darkness.
quote:I don't know about this secretive lifestyle in TWI-2 where you have to be a victim, keep quiet, and can't speak your mind and ask questions otherwise you'd be outed and thrown out. Hey, under those conditions, maybe its better if you get thrown out?
Sure, it was better if you got thrown out. But there was an enormous fear of being out of the protection of the household, being a greasespot by midnight. I remember that fear, and even though I knew fear was sand in the machinery of life....blah...blah...blah..., twi liked having people in fear because it kept them in place and obedient. I remember the best deliverance of my life was realizing that I wasn't going to die if I left the ministry. I was a good little koolaid drinker. Now I don't touch the stuff.
They shared with me that a few years ago, they (husband and wife) wrote a letter to the BODs telling them of problems they saw in their leadership.
They had tried several times to speak to their leadership about these problems...but he would not hear of it.
So, they did what they were taught to do in the wonderful 'way tree' chain of command..and went higher...the next level being the BOD.
They wrote a well constructed letter explaining themselves and what they felt was wrong. Before sending the letter, they made the grave mistake of calling one of the BODs at the time to make sure they were doing things correctly. This member of the BOD's reassured them and said...yes, of course, send your letter. If you're not happy, you have a right to speak up.
So they did.
Little did they know, that this person whom they had spoken with, spoke to another BOD's member, whom then, called my friend's leadership and told him that there was a letter coming to TWI sent by my friends, complaining of his leadership.
This leader then told the BOD member to send the letter back to him when it arrives. The letter was addressed to the president of TWI, but it never got that far.
The leadership called my friends and said he wanted to talk to them...a ROYAL reproof insued. A 2 hour verbal screaming match by the leader.
They survived that. Then, a few weeks later, the leader calls up my friends and asks them to come and visit him. A 2 hr. drive. They did.
When they arrived, they were escorted into a basement room where there was a half circle of chairs placed and 2 chairs facing away from the circle. The local leadership (corpses) were invited and my friends had to sit backs turned from the corpses and the big leader sat in front of them...and for 2 more hours belittled them and tore them apart from top to bottom.
So then your point is, it's better to keep quiet lest thou get hassled, and not try to reprove, rebuke and correct? I don't know. It looks to me like your friends did the exact right thing, even though they got hassled later. But their actions did reveal some things, didn't it?
quote:Gee that's great, but the power we have is not in his death, but in the resurrection....
I still'd like to hear more of what they have to say, before I make a significant judgment on their thoughts.
You've never sat through a 2 hour screamfest. It seems like 12 hours when you are going through it.
And if you leave in the middle of it, you lose contact with all of your innie family and friends, which to some is a big deal.
You don't seem to have anyone you truly care about. That's a real pity.
If you *did* have people that you care deeply for, then you would know what it means to possibly lose them.
Do try, for once, to have a little empathy. Try to put yourself in the shoes of people that are going through absolute hell for the sake of their loved ones.
No my point was this...the letter never got to the person it was addressed to and nothing changed and my friends were put on probation and then watched and they were suspected of everything under the sun!
If it's as absolutely hellish as you say it is, then it's God's will for them to be released from that prison, most definitely.
You talk about loved ones. Of course children are not responsible, but if you have a spouse that won't meet you at least half way, at least try to understand your reservations/doubts about what's happening, but continues dogmatically to adhere to lies deceptions and falsehoods, then is it such a crime to depart from that "loved one".
I don't know about you, but I don't need "loved ones" who couldn't give a fig about what I thought and felt about things.
No my point was this...the letter never got to the person it was addressed to and nothing changed and my friends were put on probation and then watched and they were suspected of everything under the sun!
OM...feel sorry for you...you don't get it.
A La Prochaine,
I get your point, no need to feeling sorry for me.
I am of the belief that open rebuke is better than secret love. For all parties involved.
quote:if you have a spouse that won't meet you at least half way, at least try to understand your reservations/doubts about what's happening, but continues dogmatically to adhere to lies deceptions and falsehoods, then is it such a crime to depart from that "loved one".
quote:I still'd like to hear more of what they have to say, before I make a significant judgment on their thoughts.
Then you'll have to contact them yourself. I'm not posting any more than what I have. I can't speak for Insurgent or anyone else who is still in who posts here, but I don't post here for you, oldiesman. I decide what I'm going to post and how much information I'm going to give very carefully.
Despite your claims to the contrary - you DON'T get it. If you did you wouldn't be posting the things you do.
Regarding my family - it's not for you to judge them or me for how I am handling being "in" while wanting to be out but with my famil in tact. You don't know my situation and you never will. There is much more at stake than just my spouse and kids and YES (for me), I do think it's against God's will - do a study on it yourself some time:
quote: is it such a crime to depart from that "loved one".
You've hit a very sore spot for me in case you can't tell. Don't push it.
Someone once said "If you don't have something worth dying for, you don't have anything worth living for."
If you don't have anyone for whom you'd be willig to cross the widest ocean, climb the highest mountain, and ford the deepest river, you are truly lonely, and are more to be pitied than anything else.
quote: ... If you don't have anyone for whom you'd be willig to cross the widest ocean, climb the highest mountain, and ford the deepest river, you are truly lonely, and are more to be pitied than anything else.
Let's break out the violin accompanyment. Steve, my spiritual halitosis counter is jumping.
If a person still in TWI is willing to forego their personal opinions and feelings and remain in hellish bondage, as you maintain, thereby willing to "cross the widest ocean" and "climb the highest mountain" and "ford the deepest river" for loved ones who couldn't give a damn about what they feel or think; while simultaneously moaning, criticising and complaining how they are in hellish TWI bondage; their opinions/viewpoint is open to scrutiny and response.
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I tried, Oldies. And here I am. If I hadn't done it by choice I would have been thrown out anyway. A real God won't tolerate questions or requests for clarification, you know. A real God doesn't apologize or admit when His chosen few are wrong ~ He just changes His point of view to match theirs and woe be to anyone who can't get into the new way of thinking. Why does anyone who worships VPW bother coming around here? There are ofshoots on every street corner who will be happy to cater to your fantasies.
On the subject ~ I agree with all who said that any time anyone does something better than TWI it is held up to scorn and there is usually an accusation of "seed" thrown at it. Anybody who can play guitar better than Harve is possessed ~ just to name an example. They just can't admit it's a halfbaked ministry full of mediocre intellects and talents so the excuses and accusations fly like machinegun fire.
I used to have an open mind but my brains kept falling out.
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Golfie
Quote:
"I'm sure if Jesus bodily walked the face of the earth today, nobody in TWI would recognize him.
Hell, they'd probably lead the way to crucify him." - Catcup
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
TWI pharisees would say "Crucify Him! We want Barabbas!" And so would their mob-minded-faithful-TWIhousehold-followers. (Nobody in TWI would recognize the TRUE son of the Father.)
If Jesus faced TWI today, this is what He would say,
Those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them--do you think that they were more guilty offenders than all of you?
I tell you, No; but unless you repent, change your mind for the better and heartily amend your ways, with abhorrence of your past sins, you will all likewise perish...
For years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree and I find none. Cut it down! Why should it continue also to use up the ground, to deplete the soil, intercept the sun, and take up room? (Luke 13)
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oldiesman
Rascal, it seems to me that John did the right thing by speaking his mind. I'll be honest with you guys, I don't know about this secretive lifestyle in TWI-2 where you have to be a victim, keep quiet, and can't speak your mind and ask questions otherwise you'd be outed and thrown out. Hey, under those conditions, maybe its better if you get thrown out?
Old Shakes said "to thine ownself be true". I think its a better lifestyle than complaining about TWI-2 that you're in a prison and can't move. I'd free myself, but that's me.
Individual experiences may vary.
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Steve!
OM, it's been stated many times before, that the innie posters/lurkers here have their reasons for staying in.
It's been demonstrated time and again that families end up getting broken apart, ripped asunder, when an innie gets thrown out. Many of the innie posters here don't want to lose their families/loved ones.
And yes, it is STILL happening, even in the "kinder, gentler" TWI.
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socks
Hmmm, I expected a flood of responses to my challenge.
I could reduce the standards of decency, honesty and common sense. How about:
"anyone who bribed someone to get The Way Nash to make a substantial change in policy, practice or doctrine, on a ministry wide level and actually saw the change...please come forward anonymously".
Or same as above, with "but left after their bribe was taken but no action resulted"...
Sumpin'?
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Raf
Back to topic:
I don't know if Zix beat me to this, what with his fondness for Orson Scott Card and all, but here's a statement with which I cannot argue.
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Steve!
I agree with Orson, it is stupid and mean-spirited to accuse him of financial gain as his motive.
But even if that WAS his motive - so effin what? A man's got a right to try to make money. Why is that a problem?
Does he tell YOU how YOU have to invest your money? what you have to do for a living?
I didn't think so.
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Nottawayfer
The movie was great to portray the PASSION of the Christ. This also is very important to our life today. You can't have a resurrection without a death. Here are some song lyrics that I think help to understand our NEED for our Savior. Please don't let the trinitarian innuendos twist your shorts. Please see the beauty of the song.
Here I Am To Worship
Light of the World, You stepped down into darkness.
Opened my eyes let me see.
Beauty that made this heart adore You.
Hope of a life spent with You.
So here I am to worship, here I am to bow down.
Here I am to say that You're my God.
You're altogether lovely, altogether worthy.
Altogether wonderful to me.
King of all days, Oh so highly exalted.
Glorious in Heaven above.
Humbly You came to the earth You created.
All for love's sake became poor.
I'll never know how much it cost
To see my sins up on that cross.
It's humbling to realize what my sin cost.
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Nottawayfer
Sure, it was better if you got thrown out. But there was an enormous fear of being out of the protection of the household, being a greasespot by midnight. I remember that fear, and even though I knew fear was sand in the machinery of life....blah...blah...blah..., twi liked having people in fear because it kept them in place and obedient. I remember the best deliverance of my life was realizing that I wasn't going to die if I left the ministry. I was a good little koolaid drinker. Now I don't touch the stuff.
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wyteduv58
I thought Adam already had his own death. huh?
and BTW I dont see what TWI said, ANYONE else seen it here.
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Nottawayfer
Dovey,
It's in Insurgent's first post on this thread. He/She started the thread. Here's what twi said:
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A la prochaine
Recently a couple I am very close to left TWI.
They shared with me that a few years ago, they (husband and wife) wrote a letter to the BODs telling them of problems they saw in their leadership.
They had tried several times to speak to their leadership about these problems...but he would not hear of it.
So, they did what they were taught to do in the wonderful 'way tree' chain of command..and went higher...the next level being the BOD.
They wrote a well constructed letter explaining themselves and what they felt was wrong. Before sending the letter, they made the grave mistake of calling one of the BODs at the time to make sure they were doing things correctly. This member of the BOD's reassured them and said...yes, of course, send your letter. If you're not happy, you have a right to speak up.
So they did.
Little did they know, that this person whom they had spoken with, spoke to another BOD's member, whom then, called my friend's leadership and told him that there was a letter coming to TWI sent by my friends, complaining of his leadership.
This leader then told the BOD member to send the letter back to him when it arrives. The letter was addressed to the president of TWI, but it never got that far.
The leadership called my friends and said he wanted to talk to them...a ROYAL reproof insued. A 2 hour verbal screaming match by the leader.
They survived that. Then, a few weeks later, the leader calls up my friends and asks them to come and visit him. A 2 hr. drive. They did.
When they arrived, they were escorted into a basement room where there was a half circle of chairs placed and 2 chairs facing away from the circle. The local leadership (corpses) were invited and my friends had to sit backs turned from the corpses and the big leader sat in front of them...and for 2 more hours belittled them and tore them apart from top to bottom.
So much for writing letters OM.
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oldiesman
A La Prochaine,
So then your point is, it's better to keep quiet lest thou get hassled, and not try to reprove, rebuke and correct? I don't know. It looks to me like your friends did the exact right thing, even though they got hassled later. But their actions did reveal some things, didn't it?
I still'd like to hear more of what they have to say, before I make a significant judgment on their thoughts.
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Steve!
Hassled? you call that being "hassled"?
That's like calling a hurricane "a bit of wind".
You've never sat through a 2 hour screamfest. It seems like 12 hours when you are going through it.
And if you leave in the middle of it, you lose contact with all of your innie family and friends, which to some is a big deal.
You don't seem to have anyone you truly care about. That's a real pity.
If you *did* have people that you care deeply for, then you would know what it means to possibly lose them.
Do try, for once, to have a little empathy. Try to put yourself in the shoes of people that are going through absolute hell for the sake of their loved ones.
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A la prochaine
OM,
No my point was this...the letter never got to the person it was addressed to and nothing changed and my friends were put on probation and then watched and they were suspected of everything under the sun!
OM...feel sorry for you...you don't get it.
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oldiesman
Steve,
If it's as absolutely hellish as you say it is, then it's God's will for them to be released from that prison, most definitely.
You talk about loved ones. Of course children are not responsible, but if you have a spouse that won't meet you at least half way, at least try to understand your reservations/doubts about what's happening, but continues dogmatically to adhere to lies deceptions and falsehoods, then is it such a crime to depart from that "loved one".
I don't know about you, but I don't need "loved ones" who couldn't give a fig about what I thought and felt about things.
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oldiesman
A La Prochaine,
I get your point, no need to feeling sorry for me.
I am of the belief that open rebuke is better than secret love. For all parties involved.
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Raf
Oldiesman,
That's not your call.
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WaywardWayfer
oldiesman said:
Then you'll have to contact them yourself. I'm not posting any more than what I have. I can't speak for Insurgent or anyone else who is still in who posts here, but I don't post here for you, oldiesman. I decide what I'm going to post and how much information I'm going to give very carefully.
Despite your claims to the contrary - you DON'T get it. If you did you wouldn't be posting the things you do.
Regarding my family - it's not for you to judge them or me for how I am handling being "in" while wanting to be out but with my famil in tact. You don't know my situation and you never will. There is much more at stake than just my spouse and kids and YES (for me), I do think it's against God's will - do a study on it yourself some time:
You've hit a very sore spot for me in case you can't tell. Don't push it.
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Steve!
WW - OM is truly to be pitied.
Someone once said "If you don't have something worth dying for, you don't have anything worth living for."
If you don't have anyone for whom you'd be willig to cross the widest ocean, climb the highest mountain, and ford the deepest river, you are truly lonely, and are more to be pitied than anything else.
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A la prochaine
OM,
I just thought I'd remind you that you were the one who initially said...'write a note'.
Letters do diddly-squat in TWI.
What was your point OM?
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oldiesman
Let's break out the violin accompanyment. Steve, my spiritual halitosis counter is jumping.
If a person still in TWI is willing to forego their personal opinions and feelings and remain in hellish bondage, as you maintain, thereby willing to "cross the widest ocean" and "climb the highest mountain" and "ford the deepest river" for loved ones who couldn't give a damn about what they feel or think; while simultaneously moaning, criticising and complaining how they are in hellish TWI bondage; their opinions/viewpoint is open to scrutiny and response.
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Steve!
Such a sad, lonely little man.
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oldiesman
I'm not sad or lonely, really.
But thanks for your loving concern.
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