..... and Smikeol clams up! Totally. --> Now why aren't we able to do that?!? Heck, Paw, you coulda saved yourself gigabytes of bandwidth by doing that in all the PFAL threads.
:D--> J U S T kidding.
(... maybe) ;)-->
My own secret sign-off ====v,
Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations.
would like to add that I WISH PEOPLE WOULD (a) DO A BETTER JOB OF NAMING THE THREAD (b) DEFINE THEIR M.O. IN THE FIRST POST.
I really don't want another section that I won't visit anyhow. If people thought a little more about their first posts then I could figure out what's worth my while or not. Sometimes I can figure that out just by who the author is...
I think starting a new forum that crosses the grey area is a good idea. Then if I want to go there and read it then I will. If mike wants to post other things in the other parts of the site then he can do that also. But his ideas of what he believes, I feel is not really doctrinal and not really The Way forums.
This might work out good for others that want to share what their beliefs are. We all have changed and our beliefs are different. It might prove to be interesting.
If you do not tell the truth about yourself you can not tell it about other people.
THere are some doctrines that are particular to TWI those need to be kept here especially if they are in a thread that is discussing those doctrines and the impact they had on folks lives.
Put once we go from Doctrines particular to TWI and start having a theological discussion it probably needs to move elsewhere.
I want to add that its not only mike that goes in the grey area, I noticed. I think that if you decide to go that route it should be for everyone that wants to post in the grey area. But those grey areas need to be more defined so that everyone understands where to post what.
If you do not tell the truth about yourself you can not tell it about other people.
I'm with Oakspear - I always thought that the About TWI forum should be discussing the TWI's practices, not their doctrines.
But - instead of two doctrinal forums - one for TWI and one for general doctrinal discussions - why not combine and rename the doctrinal forum to: Doctrinal Discussions: TWI Teachings and/or General Theology. Or something like that. Some general doctrinal discussions often morph into discussing what TWI taught, and vice-versa.
Hope R. color>size>face>
... there's a star on the far horizon, rising bright in an azure sky,
for the rest of the time that you're given, why walk when you can fly?
My opinion is that is crucial to understand Way Doctrine in order to understand the cultlike aspects of TWI. The unChristianlike behavior of the recent past, doesn't make any sense unless someone understands the doctrinal underpinnings.
For example: The whole idea of a MOG can't exist unless one understands that TWI taught Jesus Christ is "absent." Which is the exact opposite of traditional Christianity which teaches a personal relationship with Jesus as Lord. And I can think of tons of other examples right off the top of my head.
So, I think by removing so called "doctrinal discussions" to a different forum, the understanding of the cultlike aspects of TWI is deficient. The dialogue about doctrine helps paint a more vivid picture of TWI as a whole.
By segregating the more doctrinal discussions, it will be harder for people searching for information about TWI to really get the whole enchilada. :)-->
Paw -- Like ChasUfarly, I intially voted to keep it here. However, after reading Rafael's post, I am re-thinking my position. Rafael makes a good point about doing a "dual" doctinal forum, the same as the "dual" political one. I am thinking the integrity of the original Doctrinal forum would not be compromised, by the addition of a second.
Vickles makes the point that we all do our share of "crossing over into grey area", but obviously the most prolific here to do so is Mike, and he has one topic only. It may not belong in a "Mike" forum, but it would be nice to see it out of mainstream, as long as it's "final resting place" doesn't corrupt what is already there.
Rafael's suggestion makes a lot of sense. Hope you give it more than a passing thought. :)-->
But if one reaches this site (GSCafe), and sees the "TWI Doctinal Discussion" forum there in the General Forum listing, don'tcha think that those who "want to know" will click there first? -->
I'm thinking they will, but what you said holds water. (no leaky cistern there!)
Moo-ve it. amscray ootscay to the octrinalday issionmaries. Unless it has to do with the important work being done on the Amazing Sea Monkeys! of course.
quote:...but his threads are getting mucho hits
If the hits drop Paw, you can always move it back, add a rotating banner and a 2 for 1 special. :D-->
I was standing all alone against the world outside. You were searching for a place to hide....
Now I've found you, there's no more emptiness inside. When we're hungry love will keep us alive.
Without the teachings, the practices would have been much easier to realize as nonsense.
If someone doesn't want to engage Mike in that dialogue, don't.
But for the primary mission -- making clear the error of The Way -- it's not at all unreasonable to engage in discussion of the errors in both the teaching and the practice in the same forum.
quote: For example: The whole idea of a MOG can't exist unless one understands that TWI taught Jesus Christ is "absent." Which is the exact opposite of traditional Christianity which teaches a personal relationship with Jesus as Lord. And I can think of tons of other examples right off the top of my head.
This is why the false accusation, or assumption, that TWI taught Wierwille took the place of Jesus is bogus and lame.
TWI taught "the Word takes the place of the absent Christ". Is Christ absent? spiritually no, but physically yes. So Wierwille must have meant that physically, the Word takes the place of the absent Christ.
If it doesn't, if Christ is present, I'd very much like to meet the person who has a personal physical relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ. I'd love to have Jesus over for supper. But it doesn't take much of a realization what Wierwille meant when he taught that Christ was absent. He meant physically.
It seems to me that this poll is mostly about where to put the Mike threads and possiblbly those of a few other posters. It may also be applicable to the drive-by prophets who occasionally post their messages and warnings here at GS.
Mike, as well as some others start their threads in "About The Way" or "Open" because they want them to be seen by most number of people and not hidden down there in Doctrinal where some never dare venture or don't even know is there. Others (mostly newbies) post things of a doctrinal nature in About the Way becasue they may not be aware of a Doctrinal forum.
To get to the Doctrinal Forum, you have to go way down the main forum page - down past "Computer Questions" and "Testing 123" almost to the basement where the Archives are stored. The Doctrinal forum is the only forum in a category of it's own except for Soap Opera, so if you happen to wind up on the "General" page you will not even find the Doctrinal forum listed.
Mike's threads are obviously not "About the Way". At least not in the spirit of the listed purpose of that forum. His purpose is evangelistic in nature. Given the currently avaliable choices, Mike's threads would fit Doctrinal better than About The way. So would quite a few of Roy's threads.
However, I think the Doctrinal Forum needs a little more exposure than it get's now. Maybe move it up the page. Maybe give it a listing in the General category instead of having it in it's own category near the basement.
And instead of having just one catch-all Doctrinal forum maybe there should be an open "Religious" forum where folks like Mike and the drive-by prophets can post their messages and let the Doctrinal forum be for the actual discussion doctrinal topics.
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
I've got a couple of thoughts. As I said in my earlier post, it's really hard to seperate the doctrinal issues of TWI, from the cultlike practice. I don't think there's any argument that TWI elevated their "doctrine" and "belief system" above all else, even loved ones, friends and family held dear for decades even. People were/are sacrificed routinely for the sake of doctrine.
It seems when discussions move down to the Doctrinal Forum, they are more likely to become duelling bible verses, or too theological for my brain to follow. :)--> But if they stay in the "About the Way" forum, people (myself included) who aren't normally real doctrinally minded in a research kinda way, seem more likely to participate.
That said, I see the pros and cons of both sides. The doctrinal squabbles do get old in the About the Way forum. So I guess what I'm saying is, there a probably a number of solutions to the questions. And maybe one is not better than the other, just different.
Paw--I have to admit----I really dont care and that wasnt one of the options....But I appreciate your efforts...but since I just dont "go there" any more.....well.....
I'll add my thumbs-up to Goey's idea too. "Drive-By prophets"--LOL!
Reminds me of that scene in Monty Python's Life of Brian where Brian poses as a prophet in order to escape the Roman pursuit.
quote:BLOOD & THUNDER PROPHET:
...And the bezan shall be huge and black, and the eyes thereof red with the blood of living creatures, and the whore of Babylon shall ride forth on a three-headed serpent, and throughout the lands, there'll be a great rubbing of parts. Yeeah...
FALSE PROPHET:
...For the demon shall bear a nine-bladed sword. Nine-bladed!
Not two or five or seven, but nine, which he will wield on all wretched sinners, sinners just like you, sir, there, and the horns shall be on the head, with which he will...
BORING PROPHET:
...Obadiah, his servants. There shall, in that time, be rumours of things going astray, erm, and there shall be a great confusion as to where things really are, and nobody will really know where lieth those little things wi-- with the sort of raffia work base that has an attachment.
At this time, a friend shall lose his friend's hammer and the young shall not know where lieth the things possessed by their fathers that their fathers put there only just the night before, about eight o'clock. Yea, it is written in the book of Cyril that, in that time, shall the third one...
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GarthP2000
Paw posted "shut up here ... totally", ....
..... and Smikeol clams up! Totally.
--> Now why aren't we able to do that?!? Heck, Paw, you coulda saved yourself gigabytes of bandwidth by doing that in all the PFAL threads.
(... maybe)
;)-->
My own secret sign-off ====v,
Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations.
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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ChasUFarley
I voted to leave it here BUT
BUT
BUT
BUT
would like to add that I WISH PEOPLE WOULD (a) DO A BETTER JOB OF NAMING THE THREAD (b) DEFINE THEIR M.O. IN THE FIRST POST.
I really don't want another section that I won't visit anyhow. If people thought a little more about their first posts then I could figure out what's worth my while or not. Sometimes I can figure that out just by who the author is...
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vickles
I think starting a new forum that crosses the grey area is a good idea. Then if I want to go there and read it then I will. If mike wants to post other things in the other parts of the site then he can do that also. But his ideas of what he believes, I feel is not really doctrinal and not really The Way forums.
This might work out good for others that want to share what their beliefs are. We all have changed and our beliefs are different. It might prove to be interesting.
If you do not tell the truth about yourself you can not tell it about other people.
virginia woolfe
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templelady
THere are some doctrines that are particular to TWI those need to be kept here especially if they are in a thread that is discussing those doctrines and the impact they had on folks lives.
Put once we go from Doctrines particular to TWI and start having a theological discussion it probably needs to move elsewhere.
MO
(who Used to be Maure)
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vickles
I want to add that its not only mike that goes in the grey area, I noticed. I think that if you decide to go that route it should be for everyone that wants to post in the grey area. But those grey areas need to be more defined so that everyone understands where to post what.
If you do not tell the truth about yourself you can not tell it about other people.
virginia woolfe
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Hope R.
I'm with Oakspear - I always thought that the About TWI forum should be discussing the TWI's practices, not their doctrines.
But - instead of two doctrinal forums - one for TWI and one for general doctrinal discussions - why not combine and rename the doctrinal forum to: Doctrinal Discussions: TWI Teachings and/or General Theology. Or something like that. Some general doctrinal discussions often morph into discussing what TWI taught, and vice-versa.
Hope R. color>size>face>
... there's a star on the far horizon, rising bright in an azure sky,
for the rest of the time that you're given, why walk when you can fly?
Mary Chapin Carpentersize>color>
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ex10
My opinion is that is crucial to understand Way Doctrine in order to understand the cultlike aspects of TWI. The unChristianlike behavior of the recent past, doesn't make any sense unless someone understands the doctrinal underpinnings.
For example: The whole idea of a MOG can't exist unless one understands that TWI taught Jesus Christ is "absent." Which is the exact opposite of traditional Christianity which teaches a personal relationship with Jesus as Lord. And I can think of tons of other examples right off the top of my head.
So, I think by removing so called "doctrinal discussions" to a different forum, the understanding of the cultlike aspects of TWI is deficient. The dialogue about doctrine helps paint a more vivid picture of TWI as a whole.
By segregating the more doctrinal discussions, it will be harder for people searching for information about TWI to really get the whole enchilada.
:)-->
As always, just my opinion.
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dmiller
Paw -- Like ChasUfarly, I intially voted to keep it here. However, after reading Rafael's post, I am re-thinking my position. Rafael makes a good point about doing a "dual" doctinal forum, the same as the "dual" political one. I am thinking the integrity of the original Doctrinal forum would not be compromised, by the addition of a second.
Vickles makes the point that we all do our share of "crossing over into grey area", but obviously the most prolific here to do so is Mike, and he has one topic only. It may not belong in a "Mike" forum, but it would be nice to see it out of mainstream, as long as it's "final resting place" doesn't corrupt what is already there.
Rafael's suggestion makes a lot of sense. Hope you give it more than a passing thought.
:)-->
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dmiller
Ex10 -- you are making a good point too.
;)-->
But if one reaches this site (GSCafe), and sees the "TWI Doctinal Discussion" forum there in the General Forum listing, don'tcha think that those who "want to know" will click there first?
-->
I'm thinking they will, but what you said holds water. (no leaky cistern there!)
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socks
Moo-ve it. amscray ootscay to the octrinalday issionmaries. Unless it has to do with the important work being done on the Amazing Sea Monkeys! of course.
If the hits drop Paw, you can always move it back, add a rotating banner and a 2 for 1 special.
:D-->
I was standing all alone against the world outside. You were searching for a place to hide....
Now I've found you, there's no more emptiness inside. When we're hungry love will keep us alive.
The Eagles
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Rocky
I have to go with Ex10 on this.
It's still about The Way.
The doctrine was critical to the practice.
Without the teachings, the practices would have been much easier to realize as nonsense.
If someone doesn't want to engage Mike in that dialogue, don't.
But for the primary mission -- making clear the error of The Way -- it's not at all unreasonable to engage in discussion of the errors in both the teaching and the practice in the same forum.
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oldiesman
This is why the false accusation, or assumption, that TWI taught Wierwille took the place of Jesus is bogus and lame.
TWI taught "the Word takes the place of the absent Christ". Is Christ absent? spiritually no, but physically yes. So Wierwille must have meant that physically, the Word takes the place of the absent Christ.
If it doesn't, if Christ is present, I'd very much like to meet the person who has a personal physical relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ. I'd love to have Jesus over for supper. But it doesn't take much of a realization what Wierwille meant when he taught that Christ was absent. He meant physically.
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pawtucket
oldiesman,
did you just derail this thread?
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ChasUFarley
Something else I thought of with this other doctorinal section....
Wouldn't that be a heck of a lot more work for you, Paw?
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Goey
I changed my mind.
It seems to me that this poll is mostly about where to put the Mike threads and possiblbly those of a few other posters. It may also be applicable to the drive-by prophets who occasionally post their messages and warnings here at GS.
Mike, as well as some others start their threads in "About The Way" or "Open" because they want them to be seen by most number of people and not hidden down there in Doctrinal where some never dare venture or don't even know is there. Others (mostly newbies) post things of a doctrinal nature in About the Way becasue they may not be aware of a Doctrinal forum.
To get to the Doctrinal Forum, you have to go way down the main forum page - down past "Computer Questions" and "Testing 123" almost to the basement where the Archives are stored. The Doctrinal forum is the only forum in a category of it's own except for Soap Opera, so if you happen to wind up on the "General" page you will not even find the Doctrinal forum listed.
Mike's threads are obviously not "About the Way". At least not in the spirit of the listed purpose of that forum. His purpose is evangelistic in nature. Given the currently avaliable choices, Mike's threads would fit Doctrinal better than About The way. So would quite a few of Roy's threads.
However, I think the Doctrinal Forum needs a little more exposure than it get's now. Maybe move it up the page. Maybe give it a listing in the General category instead of having it in it's own category near the basement.
And instead of having just one catch-all Doctrinal forum maybe there should be an open "Religious" forum where folks like Mike and the drive-by prophets can post their messages and let the Doctrinal forum be for the actual discussion doctrinal topics.
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
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Tom Strange
That's a good idea Goey.
Move the 'Doctrinal' up the page.
Have a 'Religious' or 'Evangelical Proselytizing' section for folks who believe they have a message from God they want to deliver.
It's hard to make that change, When life and love turns strange. And old.
To give a love, you gotta live a love. To live a love, you gotta be "part of". When will I see you again?
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ex10
Goey, that's a good idea.
I've got a couple of thoughts. As I said in my earlier post, it's really hard to seperate the doctrinal issues of TWI, from the cultlike practice. I don't think there's any argument that TWI elevated their "doctrine" and "belief system" above all else, even loved ones, friends and family held dear for decades even. People were/are sacrificed routinely for the sake of doctrine.
It seems when discussions move down to the Doctrinal Forum, they are more likely to become duelling bible verses, or too theological for my brain to follow.
:)--> But if they stay in the "About the Way" forum, people (myself included) who aren't normally real doctrinally minded in a research kinda way, seem more likely to participate.
That said, I see the pros and cons of both sides. The doctrinal squabbles do get old in the About the Way forum. So I guess what I'm saying is, there a probably a number of solutions to the questions. And maybe one is not better than the other, just different.
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Doze
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WordWolf
Having read the choices, I agree that another
forum under Doctrinal,
specializing in twi DOCTRINE,
would be the best option.
Then, those seeking other information in
"About the Way" can find it in
"About the Way".
Those seeking to discus doctrine in light of
shared experience with, or based on,
twi materials, would then find THEIR subjects
easily.
As it is, the two are currently jumbled.
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oldiesman
apparently not...
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JustThinking
After reading Ex10's post, I have changed my opinion. Her point is too important, in my mind, to ignore. I vote with her.
JT
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washingtonweather
Paw--I have to admit----I really dont care and that wasnt one of the options....But I appreciate your efforts...but since I just dont "go there" any more.....well.....
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TheInvisibleDan
I think Goey hit the nail on the head.
Start a "Religious" or "Drive-by Prophets/Apostles/Teachers/Kooks" forum for all
the "advanced" Way doctrinal/proselytizing mutations that emerge from the fallout.
Danny
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Zixar
I'll add my thumbs-up to Goey's idea too. "Drive-By prophets"--LOL!
Reminds me of that scene in Monty Python's Life of Brian where Brian poses as a prophet in order to escape the Roman pursuit.
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