~sighs~ only because of the destruction of people's lives, their hope and trust do I post the following.
I have already posted on this thread that I was told by top leadership that I would die, the adversary would kill me if I left the field..field being a committment to TWI in one of their outreach programs...and this was in 1981....no one was sick, no one was out of touch, it was reported to other upper high eschalion...
Now, I know I mattered very little while in TWI. I did not have a big family in TWI, so therefore I was alone and had no one in corps that I was related to, no one married into a long standing TWI family or in the structure of said organization, I was not financially set to be of any consequence to anyone and was treated as such.
I can name names of who knew of my promised demise. I can tell you that in 1981 how I cried or lamented into the phone to top leadership at HQ that I didn't want to die...and I believe I already did post that...
I am not surprised that my post may have meant little,(as I didnt' matter much then either) but then we were all conditioned to hearing it so often before...whether it was alluded to covertly about dying or some other misfortune over coming those that leave...or outright said...
In a court of law...I seriously doubt anyone anytime could name the date and time and teaching tape of where VP said you, me, them, would die or be killed or even if someone could, it may be ignored or said that the person's memory is faulty, someone had a bad day or it was miscontrued and the actually hidden meaning escaped them...and maybe that would work in a court of law to allow any organization that overtly and covertly implied and stated the disasterous results that could happen to slide away from legally shouldering any guilt to what we all know, well most of us, what intended phrases meant and what was really being taught behind the scenes to those involved, whether it was direct or implied....
Implied doesn't hold in a court of law...usually, but then we're not in a court of law here, or are we???? Rather we're in a court of people who have had varying degrees of this happening to them or to someone else they knew in TWI or read here in the forums.
It is not surprising that an organization that has never fully came clean about anything that they have done, fully and completely clean, would ever own up to instilling fear of death, the adversary getting them and killing them or driving them insane (which was another threat tossed around loosely, if you leave the ministry or the word, you will go insane, I heard it, others have posted to having that thrown at them and if anyone wants teaching tape, I refer to the Advanced Class 1979 that was used after that as well as Vee Pee mocks modern Christianity saying that a large number of people in mental institutions today were Christian and he alluded to these Christians having absolutely NO power over the adversary who possessed them and made them crazy....then he went on to say to the audience that the devil would love nothing better than to put us in a mental institution as well...now does that qualify for edification or exhortation teaching or rather what is implied there?)
If one person heard that they would die....or it was implied should have been enough to stop caring loving people in their tracks but it wasn't....and it still isn't, for some.
For more implied threats about those that leave the ministry, LCM preached while in a layover in New York that the ONLY reason a TWI believer would leave the ministry is because they got possessed....it was the first time I had heard that then ...that it took devil possession to leave TWI...now, who wanted to risk that? That was fall of 1979
As I pointed out before, VP did, at ROA mention, specifically in 1980 that there was NO armour on a Christian's back. You know what is implied there....
The lightning-bug is brilliant, but he hasn't any mind; He stumbles through existence with his headlight on behind.-E.F. Ware, The Lightning-Bugsize font color>
[This message was edited by Mandii on February 26, 2004 at 19:22.]
I'm sorry too, for what both of you had to endure as well *hugggs bunches*
The lightning-bug is brilliant, but he hasn't any mind; He stumbles through existence with his headlight on behind.-E.F. Ware, The Lightning-Bugsize font color>
I have already posted on this thread that I was told by top leadership that I would die, the adversary would kill me if I left the field..
Good post Mandi. But.....you know ?
The word "satan" wasn't used in their threat. I mean to say that that because they said to you "the adversary" would kill you and NOT that "SATAN" would kill you then , according to OldiesMan , it is TOTALLY different.
By the logic of OldiesMan (which in this case bears an astonishing resemblance to that of many Way leaders and their suckups), we MUST dismiss VPW and his representatives from ANY and ALL responsibility in suggesting that we would die, be killed, or be worthy of death should we seek an exit from TWI. Why ?
Because they didn't use the EXACT word "Satan" in their threat.Its all about words and exact usage so take a check up from the neck up next time you post bad things about VPW !
As for the reference to the witchcraft spoken about, first of all we all have to remember that as large as the group had gotten that some fellowships in some areas were so isolated that it sometimes other groups or even leaderships of those groups were unaware of individual groups or individuals ,individual practices, I personally know of things that individuals said, and backed it up by saying they were taught this, but were never taught these things in any teachings I know of from the ministry, I was never taught to pray for evil to come to anyone, I will admit to comment that Donna made about the young lady dying on the airplane was definitely wrong but by that time the Martindail's were already gone in their minds, trying to cover their behind
wordwolf. I am not calling anyone a liar, I was just speaking of my personal experiences butin light of the date 1981 I'm sure there are things that could have been happening without my knowledge due to the fact I was newly involved at that time and I guess there has been phases of corruption in the ministry over the years, but I think my main point is that the original class material originally put together by Dr. and the heart behind it was honest at least to the best of his ability at that time, and I think that for me a former atheist, that class brought me to God and his word and to this day although I do not fellowship with the ministry I still love God and his word, not insinuate that others do not P.S my post was originally in response to IMF77 not Mandii, what I have read from her post, does not surprise me very much as I look back over the years I would say it there had been long term corruption in the ministry even with Dr. I just don't know when it started but I do not believe it was in the beginning of the ministry.
[This message was edited by greg on February 27, 2004 at 10:15.]
This is a response to several postings in reference to VP stating that if a person left the ministry that Satan would kill them, first of all nothing would surprise me nowadays ,but even if it had been said I think it's not uncommon that most large groups believe that their group is the only group that is correct I know for fact that the Jehovah's Witnesses believe that also, this does not make it correct but nonetheless it is so, as far as Satan goes he would like to kill us all in the ministry or out of the ministry, and some of us well know there have been individuals who were very active in the ministry even levels of leadership that had horrible things happen to them while they were still part of the ministry health issues, death and accidents, our lives as born-again believers and that quality of life we live is based on how well we walk that word in our life, at 1 time I also believed that everyone outside of the ministry was also outside of God's protection, I no longer believe that I believe a man or woman born-again no matter where they are in this world if they live that word of God in their life has got protection and blessings, as long as they are born-again of God and as long as they apply the principles that God set forth for us to live in our lives therefore allowing us to have a prosperous life , I think at one time due to a certain forms of corruption ,I believe money being one of them followed by fear of losing that money that many things were said to keep anyone from leaving because if someone were to leave they took there money also, again I do not believe this was the original heart of the ministry once again, we are dealing with mankind let us not forget King Solemn and how he changed later on in his life, also the one thing I really thank the ministry for in power for abundant living is that they taught me how to work and understand the Bible for myself therefore giving me the power to know when a man spoke for God or when he did not it's up to us to use that power.
Is there a reason you wrote that paragraph the way you did? It's very hard to follow. Try throwing in a few periods and maybe a paragraph break or two. Easier on the eyes. You make some good points.
Delurking to give an opinion about the Way and witchcraft. (I'm exway but have been involved in Wicca/goddess stuff for a while.)I am no expert, just my opinion.
There are two things that I find a little similar to some wiccan practices.
When in the Way I used to focus on a mental image while speaking in tongues. Wiccans do that, too, with meditations and spells(kind of the point of doing a spell is to focus energy on a certain desired result.)
I don't belong to a coven(joining any group gives me the heebee jeebees, wonder why?) but I have been to some of the big holiday rituals on invite. They do a part of the ritual called Drawing down the Moon, in which the priestess speaks for the Goddess. It seems to me to be exactly like word of prophecy. Words of exhortation and comfort. I've only ever been to the one coven, so don't have broad experience.
Other than that--don't see much similarities. I don't know personally of any who do destruction spells, and people who act like the movie 'The Craft' would not have much respect with the folk I know. Most would choose not to because of their belief in the Law of returns, or the three fold law(what you out out for good or evil returns to you three fold.)
Black candles are popular in banishing spells--banish negativity, or financial woes, or excess weight. But if you harm some one,consequences.
Can I play grammar professor? I hope people don't skip your post, Greg. By the way, first cup of coffee's on me...
quote:Originally posted by greg:
This is a response to several postings in reference to VP stating that if a person left the ministry that Satan would kill them. First of all nothing would surprise me nowadays, but even if it had been said I think it's not uncommon that most large groups believe that their group is the only group that is correct. I know for fact that the Jehovah's Witnesses believe that also. This does not make it correct but nonetheless it is so.
As far as Satan goes, he would like to kill us all, in the ministry or out of the ministry, and some of us well know there have been individuals who were very active in the ministry (even levels of leadership) that had horrible things happen to them while they were still part of the ministry: health issues, death and accidents. Our lives as born-again believers and that quality of life we live is based on how well we walk that Word in our life.
At one time I also believed that everyone outside of the ministry was also outside of God's protection. I no longer believe that. I believe a man or woman who is born-again, no matter where they are in this world, if they live that word of God in their life, has got protection and blessings (as long as they are born-again of God and as long as they apply the principles that God set forth for us to live in our lives therefore allowing us to have a prosperous life).
I think at one time due to certain forms of corruption, I believe money being one of them followed by fear of losing that money, that many things were said to keep anyone from leaving because if someone were to leave they took their money also. Again I do not believe this was the original heart of the ministry. Once again, we are dealing with mankind. Let us not forget King Solomon and how he changed later on in his life.
Also the one thing I really thank the ministry for in power for abundant living is that they taught me how to work and understand the Bible for myself therefore giving me the power to know when a man spoke for God or when he did not. It's up to us to use that power.
I apologize if I didn't get it right, but I wanted to try to make it clear while changing it as little as possible.
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sirguessalot
Anything RX can be the tool of "sorcery."
Getting the public hooked for the sole benefit of the "medicine man."
Selling health and well-being for a profit is sorcery.
TWI applies. So do a lot of other things in business, government and religion.
Being cabalistic is the character of "witchcraft."
Any self-centered cult. Paranoia. Hatred of those outside the "righteous" circle.
TWI applies. So do a lot of other things in business, government and religion.
IMO, neither of what is considered "sorcery" or "witchcraft" today covers what scripture is addressing, though it may include either one.
My 2 cents.
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Tom Strange
Oh NO! Sirguess!
I used to have cable...
I'm on the outside, looking inside, what do I see? Much confusion, disillusion, all around me.
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wyteduv58
Oh no Tom I do have cable............AND I LOVE IT CUZ I GET ALL THE DODGER GAMES.......YAHOOOOOOOOO
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... too dumb to post pics http://gscafe.com/groupee/forums?s=9716057...a&ul=4846073735
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TheInvisibleDan
Yes, I am truly powerful.
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Mandii
~sighs~ only because of the destruction of people's lives, their hope and trust do I post the following.
I have already posted on this thread that I was told by top leadership that I would die, the adversary would kill me if I left the field..field being a committment to TWI in one of their outreach programs...and this was in 1981....no one was sick, no one was out of touch, it was reported to other upper high eschalion...
Now, I know I mattered very little while in TWI. I did not have a big family in TWI, so therefore I was alone and had no one in corps that I was related to, no one married into a long standing TWI family or in the structure of said organization, I was not financially set to be of any consequence to anyone and was treated as such.
I can name names of who knew of my promised demise. I can tell you that in 1981 how I cried or lamented into the phone to top leadership at HQ that I didn't want to die...and I believe I already did post that...
I am not surprised that my post may have meant little,(as I didnt' matter much then either) but then we were all conditioned to hearing it so often before...whether it was alluded to covertly about dying or some other misfortune over coming those that leave...or outright said...
In a court of law...I seriously doubt anyone anytime could name the date and time and teaching tape of where VP said you, me, them, would die or be killed or even if someone could, it may be ignored or said that the person's memory is faulty, someone had a bad day or it was miscontrued and the actually hidden meaning escaped them...and maybe that would work in a court of law to allow any organization that overtly and covertly implied and stated the disasterous results that could happen to slide away from legally shouldering any guilt to what we all know, well most of us, what intended phrases meant and what was really being taught behind the scenes to those involved, whether it was direct or implied....
Implied doesn't hold in a court of law...usually, but then we're not in a court of law here, or are we???? Rather we're in a court of people who have had varying degrees of this happening to them or to someone else they knew in TWI or read here in the forums.
It is not surprising that an organization that has never fully came clean about anything that they have done, fully and completely clean, would ever own up to instilling fear of death, the adversary getting them and killing them or driving them insane (which was another threat tossed around loosely, if you leave the ministry or the word, you will go insane, I heard it, others have posted to having that thrown at them and if anyone wants teaching tape, I refer to the Advanced Class 1979 that was used after that as well as Vee Pee mocks modern Christianity saying that a large number of people in mental institutions today were Christian and he alluded to these Christians having absolutely NO power over the adversary who possessed them and made them crazy....then he went on to say to the audience that the devil would love nothing better than to put us in a mental institution as well...now does that qualify for edification or exhortation teaching or rather what is implied there?)
If one person heard that they would die....or it was implied should have been enough to stop caring loving people in their tracks but it wasn't....and it still isn't, for some.
For more implied threats about those that leave the ministry, LCM preached while in a layover in New York that the ONLY reason a TWI believer would leave the ministry is because they got possessed....it was the first time I had heard that then ...that it took devil possession to leave TWI...now, who wanted to risk that? That was fall of 1979
As I pointed out before, VP did, at ROA mention, specifically in 1980 that there was NO armour on a Christian's back. You know what is implied there....
The lightning-bug is brilliant, but he hasn't any mind; He stumbles through existence with his headlight on behind.-E.F. Ware, The Lightning-Bugsize font color>
[This message was edited by Mandii on February 26, 2004 at 19:22.]
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Dot Matrix
Great post Mandi
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excathedra
thanks mandii
i'm sorry
?
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Mandii
Thank you Dot and Exie...
I'm sorry too, for what both of you had to endure as well *hugggs bunches*
The lightning-bug is brilliant, but he hasn't any mind; He stumbles through existence with his headlight on behind.-E.F. Ware, The Lightning-Bugsize font color>
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diazbro
Mandi said:
I have already posted on this thread that I was told by top leadership that I would die, the adversary would kill me if I left the field..
Good post Mandi. But.....you know ?
The word "satan" wasn't used in their threat. I mean to say that that because they said to you "the adversary" would kill you and NOT that "SATAN" would kill you then , according to OldiesMan , it is TOTALLY different.
By the logic of OldiesMan (which in this case bears an astonishing resemblance to that of many Way leaders and their suckups), we MUST dismiss VPW and his representatives from ANY and ALL responsibility in suggesting that we would die, be killed, or be worthy of death should we seek an exit from TWI. Why ?
Because they didn't use the EXACT word "Satan" in their threat.Its all about words and exact usage so take a check up from the neck up next time you post bad things about VPW !
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excathedra
didn't i say that ?
;)-->
?
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greg
As for the reference to the witchcraft spoken about, first of all we all have to remember that as large as the group had gotten that some fellowships in some areas were so isolated that it sometimes other groups or even leaderships of those groups were unaware of individual groups or individuals ,individual practices, I personally know of things that individuals said, and backed it up by saying they were taught this, but were never taught these things in any teachings I know of from the ministry, I was never taught to pray for evil to come to anyone, I will admit to comment that Donna made about the young lady dying on the airplane was definitely wrong but by that time the Martindail's were already gone in their minds, trying to cover their behind
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WordWolf
Apples and oranges, Greg.
Mandii specified 1981's "top leadership."
Save some time and just call her a liar if you're going to.
It would at least be up-front and honest, even if wrong.
Seems some people who were NOT on grounds at one of the Root locates
refuse to believe bad doctrines, bad practice, or anything bad ever
came down from the top. Any problems were always isolated incidents
that in no way reflected the top leadership's positions, even tho they
set policy and were legally and spiritually responsible for the policy
and practices on said grounds.
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greg
wordwolf. I am not calling anyone a liar, I was just speaking of my personal experiences butin light of the date 1981 I'm sure there are things that could have been happening without my knowledge due to the fact I was newly involved at that time and I guess there has been phases of corruption in the ministry over the years, but I think my main point is that the original class material originally put together by Dr. and the heart behind it was honest at least to the best of his ability at that time, and I think that for me a former atheist, that class brought me to God and his word and to this day although I do not fellowship with the ministry I still love God and his word, not insinuate that others do not P.S my post was originally in response to IMF77 not Mandii, what I have read from her post, does not surprise me very much as I look back over the years I would say it there had been long term corruption in the ministry even with Dr. I just don't know when it started but I do not believe it was in the beginning of the ministry.
[This message was edited by greg on February 27, 2004 at 10:15.]
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oldiesman
Thanks for sharing that Greg.
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greg
This is a response to several postings in reference to VP stating that if a person left the ministry that Satan would kill them, first of all nothing would surprise me nowadays ,but even if it had been said I think it's not uncommon that most large groups believe that their group is the only group that is correct I know for fact that the Jehovah's Witnesses believe that also, this does not make it correct but nonetheless it is so, as far as Satan goes he would like to kill us all in the ministry or out of the ministry, and some of us well know there have been individuals who were very active in the ministry even levels of leadership that had horrible things happen to them while they were still part of the ministry health issues, death and accidents, our lives as born-again believers and that quality of life we live is based on how well we walk that word in our life, at 1 time I also believed that everyone outside of the ministry was also outside of God's protection, I no longer believe that I believe a man or woman born-again no matter where they are in this world if they live that word of God in their life has got protection and blessings, as long as they are born-again of God and as long as they apply the principles that God set forth for us to live in our lives therefore allowing us to have a prosperous life , I think at one time due to a certain forms of corruption ,I believe money being one of them followed by fear of losing that money that many things were said to keep anyone from leaving because if someone were to leave they took there money also, again I do not believe this was the original heart of the ministry once again, we are dealing with mankind let us not forget King Solemn and how he changed later on in his life, also the one thing I really thank the ministry for in power for abundant living is that they taught me how to work and understand the Bible for myself therefore giving me the power to know when a man spoke for God or when he did not it's up to us to use that power.
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Raf
Umm, Hi Greg. Welcome to the Cafe.
Is there a reason you wrote that paragraph the way you did? It's very hard to follow. Try throwing in a few periods and maybe a paragraph break or two. Easier on the eyes. You make some good points.
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Tom Strange
I'm thinking he's a "stream of consciousness" kinda guy Raffy...
I'm on the outside, looking inside, what do I see? Much confusion, disillusion, all around me.
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Bramble
Delurking to give an opinion about the Way and witchcraft. (I'm exway but have been involved in Wicca/goddess stuff for a while.)I am no expert, just my opinion.
There are two things that I find a little similar to some wiccan practices.
When in the Way I used to focus on a mental image while speaking in tongues. Wiccans do that, too, with meditations and spells(kind of the point of doing a spell is to focus energy on a certain desired result.)
I don't belong to a coven(joining any group gives me the heebee jeebees, wonder why?) but I have been to some of the big holiday rituals on invite. They do a part of the ritual called Drawing down the Moon, in which the priestess speaks for the Goddess. It seems to me to be exactly like word of prophecy. Words of exhortation and comfort. I've only ever been to the one coven, so don't have broad experience.
Other than that--don't see much similarities. I don't know personally of any who do destruction spells, and people who act like the movie 'The Craft' would not have much respect with the folk I know. Most would choose not to because of their belief in the Law of returns, or the three fold law(what you out out for good or evil returns to you three fold.)
Black candles are popular in banishing spells--banish negativity, or financial woes, or excess weight. But if you harm some one,consequences.
Back to Lurkville.
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rascal
Thanks Bramble........
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greg
I apologize for the grammar in my posting, I am not a English major I am just a working stiff. P.S. I am not trying to be sarcastic
[This message was edited by greg on February 28, 2004 at 1:47.]
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WordWolf
We can work with your grammar, Greg.
Please break up the physical sentences a bit.
Put in some periods, and skip lines here and there when
changing thought.
Makes it a LOT easier to read, which means more people will
read what you have to say, which, I figure, is the reason you
post, right?
Feel free to use the exact same words, just with some spaces.
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Raf
Can I play grammar professor? I hope people don't skip your post, Greg. By the way, first cup of coffee's on me...
I apologize if I didn't get it right, but I wanted to try to make it clear while changing it as little as possible.
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Tom Strange
Dangit Jon Lovitz!
I'm on the outside, looking inside, what do I see? Much confusion, disillusion, all around me.
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Oakspear
Wow Rafael! All those years at reporter school paid off
;)-->
It doesn't matter if we turn to dust...guess I'll see you dancin' in the ruins tonight
Oakspear
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