quote:OM, this threat of death... the greasespot thing that Craig is famous for... do you think it just started with him or TWI-2? where do you think he got the idea? I remember VeePee saying many times "if you leave this ministry, you're walking out from under God's umbrella of protection..."
Tom, I think I know what you mean ... even back in the 1970's it was thought that if you left the ministry, you were "tripped out" and stuff. However, I don't think that rose anywhere near to the level of being "snuffed out" like Craig and Donna suggested.
There were a few times in my TWI years that I was tripped out... In fact the very first time I took the Advanced Class back in 1978, immediately prior to that I wasn't attending twig for 6 months. It really was no big deal.
Basically I recall lots of people pushing the Advanced Class like it was a school for the
spiritual warfare and various individuals were discussed as if they were wizards though no one would dare use that word of course. It was very much a competitive environment wherein some people would profess to be expert at "demon hunting" and others were particulaly adept at
ministering healing while others were known for
their excellent word of knowledge skills. Of course I don't think thats how the manifestations are to be considered but after
IMF: This goes back to Waydale, GSC's forerunner. There was a thread started by Pat R where he said he'd written a book that said that the sperm which conceived Jesus was in outer space before it was in Mary. Paul Allen (Waydale moderator) asked him twice where he got the info. I didn't have internet service for awhile and never got back to the thread, but it struck me as odd.
Oakspear: I've talked to people who said witches do too know they're dealing with the devil. Witchcraft is a long existing religion; I'm sure there are as many variations of it as there are of Christianity, but I talked to those people I just mentioned, I read part of a book about it, and I remember TWI people testifying of being involved with it before TWI. They all knew the power didn't come from God and they accessed that power deliberately.
As far as witches and their power.....I`d like to relates a story from my wow year...
We had a teen coming to our fellowship...he said that most of the kids in his town/school of eurika springs were eitherinto the witchcraft or satanic worship...he himself was in the latter group....
He said that all of the satan worshipers in his group made fun of the witches...arrogantly proclaiming that at least THEY knew who they were serving....
Whether right or not....that was the pov of the satan worshipers...that the witches were just too stupid to acknowledge the source of their power....
I asked Pat what it was all about now that I knew who you were referring to.
He said while writing a book (which he hasn't finished), that he had a theory about God not creating things more than once.
His examples included creating Adam, then not creating Eve, but taking genetic material (a rib) from adam to make Eve.
Then when all life was to be wiped out by the flood, life was preserved in an ark with noah.
Pat's theory about Mary's conception was that God removed sperm from Adam in the garden before the fall,and preserved it in a frozen state.
Kinda like we do with bulls sperm for future impregnation.Because the earth was covered by a flood, I think he thought that space was the only place it could be kept frozen for implantation into Mary.
The cap of his theory was that Jesus was called the 2nd adam, and that might have more significance than people realized. Perhaps that is why he had this theory.
quote:Remember, IMF, you're dealing with a guy who believes there was jizz in outer space.
I don't see why you would have a negative attitude about someone having a theory that sorta makes some sense.
I know that I haven't been in TWI and know the bible like you guys do, but the guy is smart and has literally given the shirt off his back to help people.
I remember many times when he delivered food to families with none, and one time when Pat bought 50 cases of canned vegetables for the local food shelf.
Copyright 2004 by the author. All rights reserved. Posting may not be copied or reproduced by anyone, including employees and followers of The Way International, Inc.
[This message was edited by IMF777 on February 25, 2004 at 12:51.]
[This message was edited by IMF777 on February 25, 2004 at 12:53.]
Witches do not worship satan. They do not even believe in satan or the devil. Witches or Wiccans or followers of the old religion or the Craft worship Diety, God, as a duality, both male God and female Goddess. They seek to harm no one but to be harmonious with God the creator and His creation, Earth. It is an earth based religion of reverance to all things.
I know Cat...this particular satan worshiper was making fun of the witches because according to him...they didn`t KNOW who they were serving...in his, the satan worshipers opinion.
p.s....being a member of twi is not the necessary criteria for posting here....imf has plenty to contribute...doesn`t matter if they were in twi or not...imo.
I did not know it was a requirement that you have been in TWI to post here. I have a close friend that was and I have taken an interest in this whole TWI cult experience.
Copyright 2004 by the author. All rights reserved. Posting may not be copied or reproduced by anyone, including employees and followers of The Way International, Inc.
quote:Tom, I think I know what you mean ... even back in the 1970's it was thought that if you left the ministry, you were "tripped out" and stuff. However, I don't think that rose anywhere near to the level of being "snuffed out" like Craig and Donna suggested.
There were a few times in my TWI years that I was tripped out... In fact the very first time I took the Advanced Class back in 1978, immediately prior to that I wasn't attending twig for 6 months. It really was no big deal.
I was around then... it was implied heavily and said out right, that God wouldn't protect us and Satan would kill us because of the Word we knew and the work we had done for God...
I'm on the outside, looking inside, what do I see? Much confusion, disillusion, all around me.
I had two experiences while in (76-85) on this subject. My uncle who was into very fundimental evangelical Christianity brought me a tape from some guy name Johnny Todd about Witchcraft. My uncle had spoke to him and he told him that the way was into witchcraft. I listened to the tape and this guy pretty much pegged every group as into witchcraft but his. I dismissed it as just another religious idiot with diarrhea of the mouth with the conviction of Mike. My uncle went around a stirred up my parents and family about it. Fortunately, my father thought my uncle was off the deep end too.
Secondarily, we had a girl come to twig who claimed to be a witch. I witnessed to her at great length with little result. Her response was that all Christians lacked real spiritual power, including the way. Having waybrain at the time, this girl was scary...I summarily dismissed her as just another "war story" from my way experience. What did I learn from this? There are some pretty wacked out people out there with some wacky beliefs. She didn't arouse my curiosity to learn any more about her beliefs.
Regarding having some kind of shunning process where we were instructed to pray for bad things to happen to people who walked away...I never heard of it. We kind of viewed them as "How can anyone walk away from what we know". It bothered me, because these folks who were some of my best friends (I thought), no longer wanted anything to do with me. Perhaps TWI2 did it...I was no longer there myself, Praise God.
I never heard of anyone praying for bad things to happen to "copped out" folks. Not from locals or from leadership. They did use negative examples, like DM did at that ROA or like Loy did by saying we would be greasespots by midnight or like VPW did by saying you walk out from under God's umbrella. The praying for bad things to happen to others sounds like local wack-jobs.
I by no means am a twi defender, but this sounds strange to me. I mostly hung out with corps types and corps kids and upper level wayfers and my many local area beleafers, so by all means, I could be wrong.
CoolioWaters,
Interesting what you said about "magical thinking". I would agree. Words are just words are just words. Descriptions that we use by picking and choosing. I does boil down to the same thing....power in the invisible....through words....let there be light and so on from there.
"Witch" and "witchcraft" are words that have many meanings and connotations. There is a website called "apologist's index" (I'll post the link when my home computer is hooked up) that has good definitions of many religons and philosophies, from the adherants point of view, as well as from the outside point of view.
From what I have seen, there are a small number of those who call themselves Satanists in the U.S. - of that group, the majority worship satan not as the Christian adversary to God, but as a pre-Christian god or principle of self-love or even hedonism; kind of an "eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die, so f***** everybody else" philosophy. A minority are what other satnists call "dabblers", usually rebellious youth looking to shock. Some of the "dabblers" refer to themselves as witches.
The vast majority of those who refer to themselves as witches, or Wiccan do not subscribe to the Judeo-Christian belief in a God and his enemy, the Devil/Satan. They run the gamut from goddess worshippers to pantheists to humanists. What other peoples' opinion is of these beliefs is irrelevant to the actual beliefs.
I realize that we were taught in the Way, and some of you still believe, that anyone not worshipping the biblical God is really worshipping satan. But this has nothing to do with actual beliefs, same goes for what satanists think about it.
It doesn't matter if we turn to dust...guess I'll see you dancin' in the ruins tonight
quote:I was around then... it was implied heavily and said out right, that God wouldn't protect us and Satan would kill us because of the Word we knew and the work we had done for God...
Satan would kill us? You heard VPW or other Trustees during his time say that? Chapter and verse please. Teaching tape # please? I definitely would have remembered that because I was in and out a few times.
of becoming possessed (if they weren't already) and were worshipping satan though typically
unaware.
So anyone who still believes this Way teaching
would never see it any other way - if christians
outside of TWI are basically worshipping "the god of this world" then of course they would consider a "witch" to be far worse than that.
I think that there are a significant number of
former Way people who still ,perhaps subsconsciosuly, hold the ideas stated above and tend to see evil in any alternative religion and even in some common denominations.
In my observation its one of the last elements of waybrain to leave.
I had the John Todd tape. I believed him and still do...
BTW, in my high school, MANY girls were witches. They had spell boxes with ashes from spells, etc. They knew they summoned spirits, a lot used black - not white candles -- and knew the devil was behind it.
The white witches were supposedly "good witches" and did "good spells" but the ones with the black candles were trying to set things in motion to cause accidents and things like that.
Personally, I think what comes around goes around. It is a principle that God created in the beginning. Sort of like if this is an apple tree, it can only produce apples-can't produce grapefruit. So somehow, in twi twisted logic, if we walked away from the household of God, we no longer had the hedge of protection. Personally, I always thought my God was bigger than that. I always figured I could go anywhere and do anything, cause that Christ in me wasn't moving. And as long as I respected the principles, precepts that creation was built upon, then life was great.
Dot,
I remember talking to someone years ago who began sharing with me white witch stuff like using silk thread, etc one year and the next year was going to fellowship. I was shocked.
But I took up her invite to go to fellowship. Never was too taken up with witchcraft. The only spells I cast are in music and song. It's amazing the power of music.
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oldiesman
Tom, I think I know what you mean ... even back in the 1970's it was thought that if you left the ministry, you were "tripped out" and stuff. However, I don't think that rose anywhere near to the level of being "snuffed out" like Craig and Donna suggested.
There were a few times in my TWI years that I was tripped out... In fact the very first time I took the Advanced Class back in 1978, immediately prior to that I wasn't attending twig for 6 months. It really was no big deal.
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diazbro
After watching the Harry Potter movies I got
a sense of deja vu back towards my Way daze.
Basically I recall lots of people pushing the Advanced Class like it was a school for the
spiritual warfare and various individuals were discussed as if they were wizards though no one would dare use that word of course. It was very much a competitive environment wherein some people would profess to be expert at "demon hunting" and others were particulaly adept at
ministering healing while others were known for
their excellent word of knowledge skills. Of course I don't think thats how the manifestations are to be considered but after
TWI put its spin on them it did seem like a
contest.
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johniam
IMF: This goes back to Waydale, GSC's forerunner. There was a thread started by Pat R where he said he'd written a book that said that the sperm which conceived Jesus was in outer space before it was in Mary. Paul Allen (Waydale moderator) asked him twice where he got the info. I didn't have internet service for awhile and never got back to the thread, but it struck me as odd.
Oakspear: I've talked to people who said witches do too know they're dealing with the devil. Witchcraft is a long existing religion; I'm sure there are as many variations of it as there are of Christianity, but I talked to those people I just mentioned, I read part of a book about it, and I remember TWI people testifying of being involved with it before TWI. They all knew the power didn't come from God and they accessed that power deliberately.
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rascal
As far as witches and their power.....I`d like to relates a story from my wow year...
We had a teen coming to our fellowship...he said that most of the kids in his town/school of eurika springs were eitherinto the witchcraft or satanic worship...he himself was in the latter group....
He said that all of the satan worshipers in his group made fun of the witches...arrogantly proclaiming that at least THEY knew who they were serving....
Whether right or not....that was the pov of the satan worshipers...that the witches were just too stupid to acknowledge the source of their power....
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IMF777
johniam,
I asked Pat what it was all about now that I knew who you were referring to.
He said while writing a book (which he hasn't finished), that he had a theory about God not creating things more than once.
His examples included creating Adam, then not creating Eve, but taking genetic material (a rib) from adam to make Eve.
Then when all life was to be wiped out by the flood, life was preserved in an ark with noah.
Pat's theory about Mary's conception was that God removed sperm from Adam in the garden before the fall,and preserved it in a frozen state.
Kinda like we do with bulls sperm for future impregnation.Because the earth was covered by a flood, I think he thought that space was the only place it could be kept frozen for implantation into Mary.
The cap of his theory was that Jesus was called the 2nd adam, and that might have more significance than people realized. Perhaps that is why he had this theory.
I don't see why you would have a negative attitude about someone having a theory that sorta makes some sense.I know that I haven't been in TWI and know the bible like you guys do, but the guy is smart and has literally given the shirt off his back to help people.
I remember many times when he delivered food to families with none, and one time when Pat bought 50 cases of canned vegetables for the local food shelf.
Copyright 2004 by the author. All rights reserved. Posting may not be copied or reproduced by anyone, including employees and followers of The Way International, Inc.
[This message was edited by IMF777 on February 25, 2004 at 12:51.]
[This message was edited by IMF777 on February 25, 2004 at 12:53.]
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ladycat
Witches do not worship satan. They do not even believe in satan or the devil. Witches or Wiccans or followers of the old religion or the Craft worship Diety, God, as a duality, both male God and female Goddess. They seek to harm no one but to be harmonious with God the creator and His creation, Earth. It is an earth based religion of reverance to all things.
Satanists worship satan.
~~Cat
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ladycat
IMF777,
You seem to always reference someone or something else. Some one told you that someone said or someone else read a book and they say...
If you never were in twi, why are you here?
~~Cat
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rascal
I know Cat...this particular satan worshiper was making fun of the witches because according to him...they didn`t KNOW who they were serving...in his, the satan worshipers opinion.
p.s....being a member of twi is not the necessary criteria for posting here....imf has plenty to contribute...doesn`t matter if they were in twi or not...imo.
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IMF777
lady cat
I did not know it was a requirement that you have been in TWI to post here. I have a close friend that was and I have taken an interest in this whole TWI cult experience.Copyright 2004 by the author. All rights reserved. Posting may not be copied or reproduced by anyone, including employees and followers of The Way International, Inc.
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excathedra
i'm glad you're here IMF
?
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Tom Strange
OM:
I was around then... it was implied heavily and said out right, that God wouldn't protect us and Satan would kill us because of the Word we knew and the work we had done for God...I'm on the outside, looking inside, what do I see? Much confusion, disillusion, all around me.
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Tom Strange
so sad to hear IMF, that you can't put "I was in a cult for 'x' years" on your resume...
...kinda sad...
:(-->
I'm on the outside, looking inside, what do I see? Much confusion, disillusion, all around me.
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Doze
I had two experiences while in (76-85) on this subject. My uncle who was into very fundimental evangelical Christianity brought me a tape from some guy name Johnny Todd about Witchcraft. My uncle had spoke to him and he told him that the way was into witchcraft. I listened to the tape and this guy pretty much pegged every group as into witchcraft but his. I dismissed it as just another religious idiot with diarrhea of the mouth with the conviction of Mike. My uncle went around a stirred up my parents and family about it. Fortunately, my father thought my uncle was off the deep end too.
Secondarily, we had a girl come to twig who claimed to be a witch. I witnessed to her at great length with little result. Her response was that all Christians lacked real spiritual power, including the way. Having waybrain at the time, this girl was scary...I summarily dismissed her as just another "war story" from my way experience. What did I learn from this? There are some pretty wacked out people out there with some wacky beliefs. She didn't arouse my curiosity to learn any more about her beliefs.
Regarding having some kind of shunning process where we were instructed to pray for bad things to happen to people who walked away...I never heard of it. We kind of viewed them as "How can anyone walk away from what we know". It bothered me, because these folks who were some of my best friends (I thought), no longer wanted anything to do with me. Perhaps TWI2 did it...I was no longer there myself, Praise God.
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lindyhopper
I never heard of anyone praying for bad things to happen to "copped out" folks. Not from locals or from leadership. They did use negative examples, like DM did at that ROA or like Loy did by saying we would be greasespots by midnight or like VPW did by saying you walk out from under God's umbrella. The praying for bad things to happen to others sounds like local wack-jobs.
I by no means am a twi defender, but this sounds strange to me. I mostly hung out with corps types and corps kids and upper level wayfers and my many local area beleafers, so by all means, I could be wrong.
CoolioWaters,
Interesting what you said about "magical thinking". I would agree. Words are just words are just words. Descriptions that we use by picking and choosing. I does boil down to the same thing....power in the invisible....through words....let there be light and so on from there.
Nice observation.
OK then...Who's your mommy?
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Oakspear
"Witch" and "witchcraft" are words that have many meanings and connotations. There is a website called "apologist's index" (I'll post the link when my home computer is hooked up) that has good definitions of many religons and philosophies, from the adherants point of view, as well as from the outside point of view.
From what I have seen, there are a small number of those who call themselves Satanists in the U.S. - of that group, the majority worship satan not as the Christian adversary to God, but as a pre-Christian god or principle of self-love or even hedonism; kind of an "eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die, so f***** everybody else" philosophy. A minority are what other satnists call "dabblers", usually rebellious youth looking to shock. Some of the "dabblers" refer to themselves as witches.
The vast majority of those who refer to themselves as witches, or Wiccan do not subscribe to the Judeo-Christian belief in a God and his enemy, the Devil/Satan. They run the gamut from goddess worshippers to pantheists to humanists. What other peoples' opinion is of these beliefs is irrelevant to the actual beliefs.
I realize that we were taught in the Way, and some of you still believe, that anyone not worshipping the biblical God is really worshipping satan. But this has nothing to do with actual beliefs, same goes for what satanists think about it.
It doesn't matter if we turn to dust...guess I'll see you dancin' in the ruins tonight
Oakspear
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oldiesman
Satan would kill us? You heard VPW or other Trustees during his time say that? Chapter and verse please. Teaching tape # please? I definitely would have remembered that because I was in and out a few times.
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excathedra
oh stop, if it wasn't said to you, so be it
?
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Tom Strange
OM: to answer your question: YES
Dude, I'm not wasting my breath on you anymore.
If it didn't happen to you, it didn't happen.
If you didn't hear it yourself, it didn't get said.
If you didn't see it, it didn't occur.
I get it. I get you.
I'm on the outside, looking inside, what do I see? Much confusion, disillusion, all around me.
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diazbro
Keep in mind that TWI taught that any worship
outside of TWI was "of the devil". This included
christian services in mainstream denominations.
By this yardstick then any and all who didn't
worship under the control of TWI was in danger
of becoming possessed (if they weren't already) and were worshipping satan though typically
unaware.
So anyone who still believes this Way teaching
would never see it any other way - if christians
outside of TWI are basically worshipping "the god of this world" then of course they would consider a "witch" to be far worse than that.
I think that there are a significant number of
former Way people who still ,perhaps subsconsciosuly, hold the ideas stated above and tend to see evil in any alternative religion and even in some common denominations.
In my observation its one of the last elements of waybrain to leave.
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excathedra
good point dr. diazbro (meant respectfully)
i'm sorry to say i don't like any religion. do you think that's a waybrain element ? really ?
?
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Oakspear
Oldies:
Since your memories are different than mine, you must be wrong.
It doesn't matter if we turn to dust...guess I'll see you dancin' in the ruins tonight
Oakspear
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excathedra
of course he's wrong and so are you
?
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Dot Matrix
Doze
I had the John Todd tape. I believed him and still do...
BTW, in my high school, MANY girls were witches. They had spell boxes with ashes from spells, etc. They knew they summoned spirits, a lot used black - not white candles -- and knew the devil was behind it.
The white witches were supposedly "good witches" and did "good spells" but the ones with the black candles were trying to set things in motion to cause accidents and things like that.
Now that was in 1970...
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masterherbalist
Personally, I think what comes around goes around. It is a principle that God created in the beginning. Sort of like if this is an apple tree, it can only produce apples-can't produce grapefruit. So somehow, in twi twisted logic, if we walked away from the household of God, we no longer had the hedge of protection. Personally, I always thought my God was bigger than that. I always figured I could go anywhere and do anything, cause that Christ in me wasn't moving. And as long as I respected the principles, precepts that creation was built upon, then life was great.
Dot,
I remember talking to someone years ago who began sharing with me white witch stuff like using silk thread, etc one year and the next year was going to fellowship. I was shocked.
But I took up her invite to go to fellowship. Never was too taken up with witchcraft. The only spells I cast are in music and song. It's amazing the power of music.
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