Child Abuse in TWI

[oldiesman]

oldiesmanpics@aol.com

[rascal]

If twi didn`t condone it...then why was that bc transferred to ak after it was discovered that he and his friends had molested most of the kiddoes in the state through childrens fellowship....?

If twi didn`t condone it...why were all of the parents bullied into shutting up....with promises that it would be taken care of *in house*?

He was removed from one limb and placed into a position of authority and power in another state.

He was given access to unsuspecting believers and their children ....

Why oldies?? Who over saw the place ment of these guys?

Why were CW`s letters from vpw lcm and donna stolen from her home??

How would the thieves know that cw had incriminating evidence and was going to blow the whistle on their sick little club?

Edited February 25, 2004 by Guest

[oldiesman]

Have no idea. But before I accuse people of promotion and condoning child abuse, I prefer to get all the facts from all sides.

[rascal]

You are accusing us of accusing...we are simply telling what happened.

[Abigail]

Oldies, the teaching at the Rock of Ages was not about the "correct use" of the rod, it was about using it private. The entire topic of using the rod privately came up because a woman in TWI lost custody of her children for "using the rod".

However, I suspect none of this means anything to you because I strongly suspect you think it is perfectly ok to beat a child with a spoon to the point of leaving bruises.

Though I am still wondering what "mistake" a child could possibly make that warrants such a beating in order to prevent it from happening.

BTW, did all of the beatings you got really prevent you from making "big mistakes" in your life? Not even a single one?

To every man his own truth and his own God within.

[oldiesman]

Ok Abigail I think you and some of the other Mothers and others here think you're wiser than Solomon.

Perhaps you folks should write your own bible?

Have fun.

[rascal]

There ya go......slam her/us good oldies...THAT will change what happened to the kids!

I sure as heck don`t think I am wiser than soloman....however I DO believe that I am a hell of a lot better Mom than he ever was...

See it`s programed into us oldies...YOU will never have nor understand the *mothering* instinct imbued in us by God.........twi tried to squash that out of us...tried to talk us out of it`s importance...tried to pretend that it didn`t exist....tried to make us ignore it.

It`s the poor kids who suffered when we parents were *educated* by twi into not listening to that inner voice any more.

[Tom Strange]

This should really be posted over here as well...

quote:

---

Dude (me talking to OM), I'm not wasting my breath on you anymore.

If it didn't happen to you, it didn't happen.

If you didn't hear it yourself, it didn't get said.

If you didn't see it, it didn't occur.

I get it. I get you.

---

I'm on the outside, looking inside, what do I see? Much confusion, disillusion, all around me.

Edited February 26, 2004 by Guest

[Abigail]

OM, taking lessons from Mike? Dodge and distract but just never ever answer a direct question.

For someone who seems to know so much about this topic and is so eager to share it with the rest of us, you sure seem afraid to answer a few very simple questions.

To every man his own truth and his own God within.

[shazdancer]

Oldies,

How the teaching about the rod became corrupted reminds me about how a lot of things became corrupted. Wierwille could have opened his mouth at any time and people would have jumped to obey him. They didn't, because he didn't. It just wasn't important to him. How sad that the wellbeing of children just wasn't that important to supposed Man of God. It certainly was that important to Jesus!

It is also one of the reasons why I was wondering what happened to C**** Berna****, head of Children's Fellowship. A lot of the heart that SHOULD have been caring for children according to the Word came from her. What happened to her? Does anybody know?

I didn't confront that elder Corps mom who was smacking her son for giving the wrong homework answers. I should have. Instead, neophyte Corps that I was, I ran it past the head of Children's Fellowship. I have no idea if any action was taken. I can imagine that many problems got lost in the Way Tree that way.

But it always comes back to Wierwille. It was the BOT's responsibility to oversee leadership placements. They moved a known child molester into another state to run Children's Fellowship. He may still be in TWI. In the Catholic Church, priests who molested were defrocked, even imprisoned. And the bishops who covered for them lost their jobs.

Shaz

Edited February 26, 2004 by Guest

[excathedra]

to quote mother, "he was a mean man"

♥

[socks]

Yikes!

As for wooden spoons, to be honest, never used them and refused to support that approach. No one ever argued with us about it. My wife was involved with Way Children's fellowship for several years, and we never had any problems in our fellowhips with that. She tried to keep a close eye on how parents dealt with their kids. It's hard being a parent. Frustrating at times, and confusing at others. We found it best to try and be there for the parents and talk about stuff if they were at wits ends.

I understood the logic of using an object rather than your hand, but I also saw it the other way. Hitting a child with an object just seemed medieval to me. Everyone going around with their wooden spoons sticking out of their back pockets. It just seemed rediculous. If that offends anyone who's found it successful and useful, sorry. Just my opinion. I know what the bible says about the rod of correction, and I'd use "it" very carefully if I was going to. Being prepped with something to whack a kid's hand or butt with just seems like you're to be expecting to use it.

Wooden spoons work GREAT for stir frying vegatables though.

In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.

They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.

James Taylor

[excathedra]

how the heck do we really know what the bible is talking about regarding spoons ? (seriously though those few verses about the rod and all really need to be studied)

my mother wacked one of my brothers with her hand and it broke some blood vessels or something and swelled up so bad. mom said something like she deserved the lesson

i forget

i swear socks i'm not stalking you ;)-->

♥

Edited February 26, 2004 by Guest

[socks]

All kids are so different. Our own have been wonderful, I love them both very much, but they're very different. Both are sensitive and thoughtful but my son is more easy going, and he lets go of things easy. My daughter is more sensitive. I've had to learn to deal with them in different ways.

I still remember very vividly when my daughter was about 3 or so, and she was a bundle of happy joyful energy, always bright and happy. I never spanked her, ever. Her mom did, lightly at times, very quick attention getter kind of correction. Never "hard" as in THIS IS GONNA HURT ME MORE THAN IT DOES YOU. She was with her all day, and I wasn't.

Anyway, one day she was being disobedient about something and I knelt down and took her hand and said "NO!" and she started to take off. I held her hand and gave it a light smack and repeated "No sweetie!"

She looked at me and turned 5 shades of red and her eyes got huge and for a second I thought she was going to wail. But she just teared up and the corners of her mouth went down and she said okay and stood there and quietly cried looking at me like..."You...hit me....". I very nearly cried myself. That's all it took and for her it was lot.

Kids. Children are like windows of glass, panes of clear clean glass that the light shines through. Handled carefully the glass ages well. Handled roughly, it gets smudged and dirty and even cracked or broken. I so looked forward to the birth of my son first and then my daughter I was very aware of how I wanted to handle them. But, like all parents, I've made my mistakes. Every child deserves the best for no other reason than they just do. We all do.

Discipline and correction are necessary things for children of course. They're all little balls of foolish undirected energy. My part would be to say "gently, be gentle with the glass" and learn how that one special piece needs to be handled and do what's best for it.

In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.

They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.

James Taylor

[Radar OReilly]

Yeah sure ExCathie.....

Socks is cute enough to stalk.....maybe we can stalk him together....do you think he would notice? :D-->

[socks]

Hmmmm, I dunno, ex. What does it say about spoons? ;)--> I try to use a large, heavy baseball bat myself. Gets the job done quickly and then you can go out and play baseball.

Okay, not so funny joke.

Uh oh! Stalkers! With spoons! :D--> (what's not to like...!) :D--> :D-->

In general, I'm not in favor of using implements of wood, leather, steel or brick for discipling children.

Adults are big people. Children are little people. Teenagers are big, little people. My son knows who I am, I'm the Dad, the Man, the One. Pop. If I slugged him, it would break his heart and rip his life in two. He'd never expect it and I'd never do it. We're lovers not fighters! :D-->

In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.

They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.

James Taylor

Edited February 26, 2004 by Guest

[excathedra]

this thread means so much to me, at least lately ha ha ha ha ha

so much love

i never really got the object vs. the hand thing either

gosh if i have to get my child's attention, i'd rather it...... oh forget it.

i would never beat a child and i would never break a spirit. i've seen it done and it's just too much to bear

♥

Edited February 26, 2004 by Guest

[excathedra]

you know me always responding to my favorite poster me

quote:

---

Children are like windows of glass, panes of clear clean glass that the light shines through. Handled carefully the glass ages well. Handled roughly, it gets smudged and dirty and even cracked or broken.

---

what can i say. i'm overwhelmed

♥

[WordWolf]

Socks has summed up something that SHOULD have been implicit in the

Family Corps from the beginning.

Then again, how many experts on Child Psychology, Family Health, Mental

Health Professionals, or Social Workers were on hand or consulted when it

was being developed? Seems someone claiming to want their best for

God's Kids would actually try to get them the best, as I see it. Looks

like it was rejected as unnecessary, or a needless expense.

Besides, what would a PhD or someone with 30 years of experience

counselling families possibly tell us? We had "da werd", and knew

everything.

Children are NOT to be straitjacketed into rigid roles where they have to

perform perfectly on command. That's not the same as "well-behaved."

There also IS a difference, even, between a spanking and a beating.

A spanking, if done, shouldn't leave a mark, or leave the kid so sore they can't

sit down. It's the ACT, not the FORCE, that has an impact. (Plus, why must it

be seen as the FIRST thing you try, and not a last resort if other things

aren't getting thru?) A beating leaves a child black-and-blue, possibly leaves

scars, breaks skin, etc.

A beating as such is not appropriate for a child, no matter what year this is,

and no matter WHO does it-parent, teacher, minister, nun, mogfot, whoever.

Before someone yells that I'm disregarding Proverbs, I'm expecting that what

Proverbs is talking about is a SPANKING, not a beat-down.

(I intend to follow this expectation up with a little study, and I ask anyone

else interested to look it up also.)

============================================

That having been said,

I believe this thread has shown, early on,

that abuse, both corporal (beatings) and sexual,

occurred in twi, and that the bot, once they were

INFORMED (on more than one occasion)

elected to cover it up and move the abuser to

another location rather than fire him and remand

him to the civil authorities.

Anyone who can read the early pages of this thread and NOT believe that is

either calling those posters liars, or refuses to read their testomonies at all.

(I Corinthians 14:38.)

It was also common practice, and permitted by oversight of the FC,

to try to mold small children into little robots that did whatever their

parents wanted them to. That's ALSO evident just going from this thread.

It is also evident that some people are unable to accept this happening,

or that it was in any way harmful to the child. I'll not speculate what's

at risk for such people.

twi, BTW, is hardly alone in this. I'm personally aware of 3 other religious

organizations (including the RCC) who were sued specifically over covering up

rape or molestation, and relocating the offender.

BTW, I'll have to find and bump the "Hunt Close" thread, which is germane.

[socks]

:)-->

Jesus Christ - The Window Cleaner. :)-->

In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.

They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.

James Taylor

[oldiesman]

quote:

---

OM, taking lessons from Mike? Dodge and distract but just never ever answer a direct question. ...

---

Abigail, just because I don't answer trick questions in the framework presented, doesn't mean I'm dodging or ignoring the issue. Sometimes I prefer to answer questions in my own framework, and I think I answered enough questions on this thread for anyone to get the gist of where I'm coming from.

Edited February 26, 2004 by Guest

[Abigail]

OM, the only "jist" I get from your answers is avoidance and denial.

20 years on the Indianna Campus. Where were the corps. children??? Indianna Campus. HQ sends him here and what does he tell me to do with my 2 year old child who finds it difficult to sit still and quiet during a borning fellowship which keeps him up past his bedtime?

Is this good parenting advice? Godly? Is this how we teach chilren to "love God"? Where would a parent who lived for 20 years on the Indianna Campus (btw his kids were in jr. high and high school when he came here) learn such parenting skills? From whom?

To every man his own truth and his own God within.

[shazdancer]

Yikes, Abigail, I wish someone could come up with the history of what happened. In '79--'80, Family Corps was taught that a 2-year-old could attend a Children's Fellowship meeting, lasting no more than like, 10 minutes!

The BOD/BOT could fume over how many mints were left on their pillow, but not correct this kind of s***, makes me ill.

Regards,

Shaz

[rascal]

Oldies...I want to address the idea that a beating disuades a child from bigger mistakes further on in life.

Not that this happened in twi....but this is what happens when a child is afraid of angering the parent....

Do you know that I was so afraid of making my mother mad...so afraid of the yelling and spankings (not that she spanked much) that I wouldn`t tell her about the pedophile that lived next door.

I was MORE afraid of her anger than ANYTHING the pedophile did to me...How sick is THAT???

How much nicer it would have been had that bond of trust never been breached...How nice if she had found a way to manage her children without intimidating them into submission ....

I made SO many HUGE mistakes ....that could have been avoided had I been able to go to Mom for guidance...but hey by golly, at least she had my unquestioning obedience.

[This message was edited by rascal on February 26, 2004 at 12:24.]

Edited February 26, 2004 by Guest

[alfakat]

quote:

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Originally posted by alfakat:

quote:

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Originally posted by alfakat:

OM--bet you do not have kids, nor had them while in twi...so you REALLy know everything that went on, do ya??? once again, you were a sheltered little boy who saw nothing because it never even entered your head that it could go on. You have a strange naivete that seems to invest you with some major-league blinders...you will never get it, om--it's not in ya....sorry

---

look, look, I'm repeatin myself--still fits, don't it, OM.....

---

hey, look, he's doin it again....

OM--you are a real peice of work....let me ask you something...Do you have ANY idea what the definition of the word compassion is??? what it implies??? You are doing a great impression of an arm-chair qb, all talk, no real involement or....compassion....

listen to nor give any heed to anything that colors your little water-color memory of the way things were.... how sweet...

Edited February 26, 2004 by Guest