Contrary to your conclusion oldies...the beatings that I recieved....and there were only three that I remember..did nothing to educate me...only inspired hatrid against the ones administering said punishment...
I knew...I could tell even at an early age....it was all about my parent relieving THEIR frustration...it rarely had anything to do with the issue at hand...
You have been warped into thinking ...not only is this stuff acceptable....it`s desirable...I had much the same attitudes as you while in...and BEFORE having my children....
Untill you have children...you will never understand...and may God help you oldies with your mindset .... for the childs sake....I hope that you never do.
quote:Cool waters is right...there are very effective ways to raise your child without taking out your bad temper on em....Oh n by the way...congratulations on another derailment.
Beating a child to correct them has nothing to do with the parents temper...we learned that in TWI.
This issue has everything to do with the thread and is not a derailment. TWI is accused of fostering child abuse, partly because it espoused use of the rod. You said it yourself, and some of you believe use of the rod is child abuse. In fact, use of the rod is biblical. The fact that you won't or can't accept it now (after years and years of accepting it in TWI without question) doesn't change facts and truth.
OM, beaten and being corrected have different meanings.
As far as staying with TWI for many years knowing what was taking place as abuse...well, threats, fear, security are some of the reasons children don't tell that they are being abused or molested as well as women who don't tell that they are being abused by their husbands.
One spouse could not stay in TWI if the other left or did something to be ousted. What the hell OM, just go back and get educated on what these people went through.
I was in TWI-2 and left last year. I often ask myself why I stayed in that mess for as long as I did. Have you ever ask yourself why you were in there as long as you were or were you ever in TWI at all?
Don't open your mind to devil spirits but to what devil spirits can do to your mind...Sadie
For my final paper in Crisis Intervention Class I jumped through a ton of hoops to interview a young man in prison.
I sat across from this 'boy' of 19 and asked him where he wanted to start, what did he think started his spiral of crimes. He said nothing, gave his attorney a nod. The attorney pushed across the table to me an envelope.
I withdrew three photos.
One was of him at the age of three. His little body was beaten so badly he said "even my mother didn't recognize me" at the hand of his father.
The second photo was of his sister at age seven, this same beating incident. Her head had patches of hair gone where daddy had pulled it out, her left arm was pulled totally out of the socket and both her eyes were beaten shut.
The final photo was of him when he was six, following the rape by his father, assisted by his mother who held him down.
I feared insulting this man by asking what precipated these abuse occasions, but he seemed to already know my curiousity. The rape by his mother and father was because he didn't clean his room. The face into hamburger beating, he was told, was because he soiled himself. His sisters beating was because she changed the channel when her father fell asleep watching tv. He awoke to find her sitting next to him on the couch watching cartoons, instead of the channel he'd been watching.
When he was 17, the neighbors called police because they thought he was killing animals. They did nothing then either. When he was 18, he raped a nine year old little girl
His current sentence? 15 years for assault.
His current hobbies? Beastiality
I asked him what he wished would happen to him, what might precipate changes in his behavior. He considered this for what seemed like ever and answered with one word; Nothing.
I asked him what we in the 'helping profession' might do differant for the next little boy or girl living this life. Again uncomfortable silence. Finally he looked at me with eyes that both frightened and astounded me and said "Believe them when they tell you about the abuse".
Extreme instance? Perhaps. Or maybe not.
Do you wonder about his mother? She's alive and well living nearby, he never accepts her requests for visitation. She received no punishment for asssisting in her son's rape or abuses. How about his father? He's re-married, served three years PROBATION for the rape of his son, nothing for the abuse incidents of his children. He and his current wife have just applied for and are training to be foster parents. His sister? He has no idea if she's dead or alive.
Taking the worst of beatings, crimes, rapes, etc. and using examples like that and trying to compare that to parents biblically correcting their children with the rod, just doesn't wash. It doesn't apply, we're talking apples and oranges. Nice try though.
OldiesMan said: Taking the worst of beatings, crimes, rapes, etc. and using examples like that and trying to compare that to parents biblically correcting their children with the rod, just doesn't wash. It doesn't apply, we're talking apples and oranges. Nice try though.
===========================================
Wouldn't it be easy if I could try to compare apples to oranges or "wash" something to convince you or anyone else that doesn't get it. Sheesh, sure make life easier wouldn't it?
Apples, oranges, tomatoes, grapes. Fruit is fruit.
Abuse is abuse. Whether done for 'biblical teaching' or cuz a kid breaths the same air as the abuser. To the victim, it's abuse, period.
A child's life-long personality is shaped and nearly totally molded by time they are 3 years old. By the time a child is 8 years old, their core personality is set for life.
Shellon, this "man"...oh gawd...I would cherish the opportunity to work with him. That he answered "nothing" in response to how others could help...I know that place.
What is being discussed here that happened in twi is about chronic, relentless, habitual institutionalization of horrendous abuse.
Children with missing teeth because they were shot out with a BB gun, fear of owning pets...because whenever you did something wrong you had to watch a parent wring their necks, bruises, broken bones, webbed hands due to multiple dunking in scalding water, and damage to internal tissue due to being viciously and repeatedly raped from as young as 2 years old.
These children are now adults. They are not "bad" people in the sense that they don't steal, they don't lie, they don't act up in public, the work hard, they take care of themselves and their families the best they can.
But if you could only know what they think inside themselves about themselves.
The only thing these children learned from twi was to internalize the problems and accept themselves as irrevocably bad.
Folks, the depth of what happened in twi is not about a whack here and there with a wooden spoon. That's an issue brought up with the design to hide what really happened.
Coolwaters, once again, you're labelling all of TWI from your morbid, accusative, half-truth reality. You may accuse me of looking at only the positive side, and the positives of people; perhaps a fair conclusion. But you DEFINITELY look, focus and continue to promote only the trash. I think what I said before was correct...you think continuous evil of certain people and groups. Please don't deny it.
I was taught in TWI, in Family Corps, that the use of the spoon was NOT for a beating at all, but for a single swat to get a child's attention when that child was willfully disobediant. It was for when that child was defiant. It was NOT for punishment, and not to be used in anger. So where are you coming up with the Aesop's fable that says the young thief should have been beaten?
I caught my kid stealing something, when she was little. I explained to her, firmly, why it was wrong, and why we didn't do such a thing. I called the store and told them we were coming. Then I took her back to the store, and had her return the item to the security guard (who sure looked to her like a policeman!), and had her apologize. My bold-as-blazes daughter was scared and ashamed. She stayed on the good side of the law for the rest of her childhood (not to say she was perfect, lol!).
There are lots of ways to give doctrine, reproof, and correction to children. As an educator, I have to use those methods all the time. In TWI, many people immediately went for the spoon.
How could the Corps not see so much perversion of the rod doctrine and not stop it? Because they were doing it, too. How come VPW didn't make it a priority to teach and correct the practice? Because he couldn't have cared less. Remember, this was the man who had his wife leave their newborn with others, because he wanted her with him in India, without the baby.
Coolwaters, nce again, you're labelling all of TWI from your morbid, accusative, half-truth reality. You may accuse me of looking at only the positive side, and the positives of people; perhaps a fair conclusion. But you DEFINITELY look, focus and continue to promote only the trash. I think what I said before was correct...you think continuous evil of certain people and groups. Please don't deny it.
You accusing someone of denial?
That would be funny if your denial was about innocuous subjects.
I was taught in TWI, in Family Corps, that the use of the spoon was NOT for a beating at all, but for a single swat to get a child's attention when that child was willfully disobediant. It was for when that child was defiant. It was NOT for punishment, and not to be used in anger. So where are you coming up with the Aesop's fable that says the young thief should have been beaten?
Shazdancer,
A fable is just that, a story that is thought provoking. But thanks for sharing what you were taught in TWI...it doesn't sound like child abuse to me...despite what some believe.
One thing is certain and I'm sure of...there are some folks who DEFINITELY believe the bible teaches/encourages child abuse. If not, they would have believed what you're saying/sharing about what TWI taught. Thanks.
Morbid Half truth REALITY??? Oldies...may I remind you that cw is not the ONLY person to have come forth on this thread with their accounts of abuse????
Why are you picking on her??? Her account has been backed up by more than one longtime poster...the account of the same guys being in a state before hers and operating the same horrible manner...CAUGHT and transferred to ak has been told by yet another poster....parents intimidated into shutting up...children sexually abused from state to state....
Beatings ...intimidation...crimes ...it ALL happened in twi oldies..
Beatings ...intimidation...crimes ...it ALL happened in twi oldies..
Why are you attacking cool waters accounts?
rascal,
There are some hints in his posts...that I've wondered about for awhile...I think there is a very specific answer to your question...and I knew this day would come...
quote:How could the Corps not see so much perversion of the rod doctrine and not stop it? Because they were doing it, too.
Shazdancer, I think they did stop it at one point. Lindyhopper said that during one rock, they corrected everyone because it was seen that folks got overboard with it. But, as evidenced on this thread, there are some folks who believe even the "right way" is still child abuse. Some folks now believe hitting is never justified, at all. Let's be clear on that.
Lets be *CLEAR* that the issue at hand is the child abuse that DID happen and WAS sanctioned in twi...not what the current belief of any poster is on striking with a spoon.
Taking the worst of beatings, crimes, rapes, etc. and using examples like that and trying to compare that to parents biblically correcting their children with the rod, just doesn't wash. It doesn't apply, we're talking apples and oranges. Nice try though.
That's a little like the pot calling the kettle black isn't it OM? That's what you've done.
Now, I answered your question. Please answer mine: Do you believe the incidents of abuse shared on these pages?
Yes or No
If Yes, then you have no argument here.
If No, then I've got no time for you...
This is not a gray issue.
The forum is "Child Abuse in TWI".
There are many people sharing of things that happened TO THEM. Not heresay, actual testimony.
These same people say that TWI was informed and did nothing or, in some cases, helped cover it up.
By action, TWI implicitly condoned.
There is no gray.
If you do not believe, that is your choice.
And it would be sad if that is the case.
QUIT USING THE SPOON OR THE ROD TO AVOID THE ISSUE.
I'm on the outside, looking inside, what do I see? Much confusion, disillusion, all around me.
quote:That's a little like the pot calling the kettle black isn't it OM? That's what you've done. Now, I answered your question. Please answer mine: Do you believe the incidents of abuse shared on these pages?
Yes or No
Tom, I've seen some instances of what I would call child abuse. It happened. I have no doubt that Coolwaters and others experienced it too. But to say that TWI (the Trustees at that time), condoned it, promoted it, or infer that we in TWI were part of a "system" of child abuse all those years, is simply false. If it's true, prove it. I haven't seen proof.
The issue of the "rod" is relevant because those who believe use of the rod constitutes child abuse also believe TWI engaged in child abuse. Simple. Nothing will change their minds.
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Catcup
I, too am new to this particular thread. I spent several hours this morning looking through it. While I was never a part of any "initiation" ceremony (tongue in cheek or otherwise) that Evan describ
rascal
Contrary to your conclusion oldies...the beatings that I recieved....and there were only three that I remember..did nothing to educate me...only inspired hatrid against the ones administering said punishment...
I knew...I could tell even at an early age....it was all about my parent relieving THEIR frustration...it rarely had anything to do with the issue at hand...
You have been warped into thinking ...not only is this stuff acceptable....it`s desirable...I had much the same attitudes as you while in...and BEFORE having my children....
Untill you have children...you will never understand...and may God help you oldies with your mindset .... for the childs sake....I hope that you never do.
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rascal
There is NOTHING that a child can do *bad* enough to warrent a beating oldies...
Cool waters is right...there are very effective ways to raise your child without taking out your bad temper on em....
Oh n by the way...congratulations on another derailment.
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oldiesman
Beating a child to correct them has nothing to do with the parents temper...we learned that in TWI.
This issue has everything to do with the thread and is not a derailment. TWI is accused of fostering child abuse, partly because it espoused use of the rod. You said it yourself, and some of you believe use of the rod is child abuse. In fact, use of the rod is biblical. The fact that you won't or can't accept it now (after years and years of accepting it in TWI without question) doesn't change facts and truth.
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sadie
OM, beaten and being corrected have different meanings.
As far as staying with TWI for many years knowing what was taking place as abuse...well, threats, fear, security are some of the reasons children don't tell that they are being abused or molested as well as women who don't tell that they are being abused by their husbands.
One spouse could not stay in TWI if the other left or did something to be ousted. What the hell OM, just go back and get educated on what these people went through.
I was in TWI-2 and left last year. I often ask myself why I stayed in that mess for as long as I did. Have you ever ask yourself why you were in there as long as you were or were you ever in TWI at all?
Don't open your mind to devil spirits but to what devil spirits can do to your mind...Sadie
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Shellon
Abuse Anywhere.
For my final paper in Crisis Intervention Class I jumped through a ton of hoops to interview a young man in prison.
I sat across from this 'boy' of 19 and asked him where he wanted to start, what did he think started his spiral of crimes. He said nothing, gave his attorney a nod. The attorney pushed across the table to me an envelope.
I withdrew three photos.
One was of him at the age of three. His little body was beaten so badly he said "even my mother didn't recognize me" at the hand of his father.
The second photo was of his sister at age seven, this same beating incident. Her head had patches of hair gone where daddy had pulled it out, her left arm was pulled totally out of the socket and both her eyes were beaten shut.
The final photo was of him when he was six, following the rape by his father, assisted by his mother who held him down.
I feared insulting this man by asking what precipated these abuse occasions, but he seemed to already know my curiousity. The rape by his mother and father was because he didn't clean his room. The face into hamburger beating, he was told, was because he soiled himself. His sisters beating was because she changed the channel when her father fell asleep watching tv. He awoke to find her sitting next to him on the couch watching cartoons, instead of the channel he'd been watching.
When he was 17, the neighbors called police because they thought he was killing animals. They did nothing then either. When he was 18, he raped a nine year old little girl
His current sentence? 15 years for assault.
His current hobbies? Beastiality
I asked him what he wished would happen to him, what might precipate changes in his behavior. He considered this for what seemed like ever and answered with one word; Nothing.
I asked him what we in the 'helping profession' might do differant for the next little boy or girl living this life. Again uncomfortable silence. Finally he looked at me with eyes that both frightened and astounded me and said "Believe them when they tell you about the abuse".
Extreme instance? Perhaps. Or maybe not.
Do you wonder about his mother? She's alive and well living nearby, he never accepts her requests for visitation. She received no punishment for asssisting in her son's rape or abuses. How about his father? He's re-married, served three years PROBATION for the rape of his son, nothing for the abuse incidents of his children. He and his current wife have just applied for and are training to be foster parents. His sister? He has no idea if she's dead or alive.
"If she's luck, shes dead" he said.
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oldiesman
Taking the worst of beatings, crimes, rapes, etc. and using examples like that and trying to compare that to parents biblically correcting their children with the rod, just doesn't wash. It doesn't apply, we're talking apples and oranges. Nice try though.
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Shellon
OldiesMan said: Taking the worst of beatings, crimes, rapes, etc. and using examples like that and trying to compare that to parents biblically correcting their children with the rod, just doesn't wash. It doesn't apply, we're talking apples and oranges. Nice try though.
===========================================
Wouldn't it be easy if I could try to compare apples to oranges or "wash" something to convince you or anyone else that doesn't get it. Sheesh, sure make life easier wouldn't it?
Apples, oranges, tomatoes, grapes. Fruit is fruit.
Abuse is abuse. Whether done for 'biblical teaching' or cuz a kid breaths the same air as the abuser. To the victim, it's abuse, period.
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CoolWaters
A child's life-long personality is shaped and nearly totally molded by time they are 3 years old. By the time a child is 8 years old, their core personality is set for life.
Shellon, this "man"...oh gawd...I would cherish the opportunity to work with him. That he answered "nothing" in response to how others could help...I know that place.
What is being discussed here that happened in twi is about chronic, relentless, habitual institutionalization of horrendous abuse.
Children with missing teeth because they were shot out with a BB gun, fear of owning pets...because whenever you did something wrong you had to watch a parent wring their necks, bruises, broken bones, webbed hands due to multiple dunking in scalding water, and damage to internal tissue due to being viciously and repeatedly raped from as young as 2 years old.
These children are now adults. They are not "bad" people in the sense that they don't steal, they don't lie, they don't act up in public, the work hard, they take care of themselves and their families the best they can.
But if you could only know what they think inside themselves about themselves.
The only thing these children learned from twi was to internalize the problems and accept themselves as irrevocably bad.
Folks, the depth of what happened in twi is not about a whack here and there with a wooden spoon. That's an issue brought up with the design to hide what really happened.
אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ
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rascal
Oldies...the WORST of these crimes DID happen in twi.....*beatings crimes and rapes* they are spoken of in this thread by those who endured ....
whether or not the rod is biblical is not of any consequence... I agree...it is an issue designed to hide what really happened.
Why do you want it hidden oldies? Why is it so important to you that twi look good?
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oldiesman
Coolwaters, once again, you're labelling all of TWI from your morbid, accusative, half-truth reality. You may accuse me of looking at only the positive side, and the positives of people; perhaps a fair conclusion. But you DEFINITELY look, focus and continue to promote only the trash. I think what I said before was correct...you think continuous evil of certain people and groups. Please don't deny it.
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shazdancer
Oldies,
I was taught in TWI, in Family Corps, that the use of the spoon was NOT for a beating at all, but for a single swat to get a child's attention when that child was willfully disobediant. It was for when that child was defiant. It was NOT for punishment, and not to be used in anger. So where are you coming up with the Aesop's fable that says the young thief should have been beaten?
I caught my kid stealing something, when she was little. I explained to her, firmly, why it was wrong, and why we didn't do such a thing. I called the store and told them we were coming. Then I took her back to the store, and had her return the item to the security guard (who sure looked to her like a policeman!), and had her apologize. My bold-as-blazes daughter was scared and ashamed. She stayed on the good side of the law for the rest of her childhood (not to say she was perfect, lol!).
There are lots of ways to give doctrine, reproof, and correction to children. As an educator, I have to use those methods all the time. In TWI, many people immediately went for the spoon.
How could the Corps not see so much perversion of the rod doctrine and not stop it? Because they were doing it, too. How come VPW didn't make it a priority to teach and correct the practice? Because he couldn't have cared less. Remember, this was the man who had his wife leave their newborn with others, because he wanted her with him in India, without the baby.
Shaz
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CoolWaters
You accusing someone of denial?
That would be funny if your denial was about innocuous subjects.
אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ
[This message was edited by CoolWaters on February 25, 2004 at 13:17.]
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oldiesman
Shazdancer,
A fable is just that, a story that is thought provoking. But thanks for sharing what you were taught in TWI...it doesn't sound like child abuse to me...despite what some believe.
One thing is certain and I'm sure of...there are some folks who DEFINITELY believe the bible teaches/encourages child abuse. If not, they would have believed what you're saying/sharing about what TWI taught. Thanks.
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rascal
Morbid Half truth REALITY??? Oldies...may I remind you that cw is not the ONLY person to have come forth on this thread with their accounts of abuse????
Why are you picking on her??? Her account has been backed up by more than one longtime poster...the account of the same guys being in a state before hers and operating the same horrible manner...CAUGHT and transferred to ak has been told by yet another poster....parents intimidated into shutting up...children sexually abused from state to state....
Beatings ...intimidation...crimes ...it ALL happened in twi oldies..
Why are you attacking cool waters accounts?
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CoolWaters
rascal,
There are some hints in his posts...that I've wondered about for awhile...I think there is a very specific answer to your question...and I knew this day would come...
I'm no longer concerned about it...now.
אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ
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oldiesman
Shazdancer, I think they did stop it at one point. Lindyhopper said that during one rock, they corrected everyone because it was seen that folks got overboard with it. But, as evidenced on this thread, there are some folks who believe even the "right way" is still child abuse. Some folks now believe hitting is never justified, at all. Let's be clear on that.
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rascal
He was the same way about the sexual abuse threads and the abortion threads as well...
same arguments ...same methods of distraction from the issue at hand...
Whats the reason?
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rascal
Lets be *CLEAR* that the issue at hand is the child abuse that DID happen and WAS sanctioned in twi...not what the current belief of any poster is on striking with a spoon.
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CoolWaters
To give the reason, I would have to "out" someone. Not going to do that...it's enough that I know.
אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ
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karmicdebt
"Some folks now believe hitting is never justified, at all. Let's be clear on that."
That's what I believe...hitting is never justified...
When would it be? At work, at the park? at a little league game?
When is hitting justified really?...some believe only if it to teacn who's in control to a defenseless child. Let's be clear on that.
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Tom Strange
Now, I answered your question. Please answer mine: Do you believe the incidents of abuse shared on these pages?
Yes or No
If Yes, then you have no argument here.
If No, then I've got no time for you...
This is not a gray issue.
The forum is "Child Abuse in TWI".
There are many people sharing of things that happened TO THEM. Not heresay, actual testimony.
These same people say that TWI was informed and did nothing or, in some cases, helped cover it up.
By action, TWI implicitly condoned.
There is no gray.
If you do not believe, that is your choice.
And it would be sad if that is the case.
QUIT USING THE SPOON OR THE ROD TO AVOID THE ISSUE.
I'm on the outside, looking inside, what do I see? Much confusion, disillusion, all around me.
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sadie
Rascal, people who abuse and molest believe that it is alright. Thieves who steal from others daily eventually believe it is o.k.
Soon they become greedy and their lifestyle becomes obvious with their actions and remarks.
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oldiesman
Tom, I've seen some instances of what I would call child abuse. It happened. I have no doubt that Coolwaters and others experienced it too. But to say that TWI (the Trustees at that time), condoned it, promoted it, or infer that we in TWI were part of a "system" of child abuse all those years, is simply false. If it's true, prove it. I haven't seen proof.
The issue of the "rod" is relevant because those who believe use of the rod constitutes child abuse also believe TWI engaged in child abuse. Simple. Nothing will change their minds.
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Dartanian3m
oldiesman would you mind sending me your email addy- I would like to speak with you privately if you have no objections- Dartanian1863@aol.com
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