quote:OM, if twi was so great, how come your not with them?
Vicks, if TWI was so terrible, why did folks hang around for 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 years, especially since it was supposed to have encouraged child abuse?
I'm not with them because TWI-2 has been considered by many to be exceedingly legalistic, among some other doctrinal issues I now disagree with. However, if there were a fellowship nearby me, I wouldn't have a problem going to check it out. But it'd be a cold day in hell before I gave them money.
See what I get for not listening to my inner self and putting up one danged post on the board today????
OM, here is something I learned when my daughter was molested by a twi-er:
He used the threat of being spanked to get her to not cry out or fight back. When she told the rape crisis counselor this, the counselor gave me a pamphlet to read. In that pamphlet were statistics. Those statistics showed that over 80% of child molesters use the threat of spanking a child to get a child to be quiet and not fight back or cry out.
That was in 1984. I certainly hope that in this day and age parents no longer teach blind obedience to whatever adult that happens along with the threat of spanking. Of course, if a child is used to being spanked, that'd be a hard thing to teach him/her.
well... I've personally not had to "raise" kids... my kids were already way past that phase when I came on the scene... but...
I never really did see much sense to the spoon thing, I'm not against spankin's, but it just always seemed that most folks were pretty quick with that thing... I felt it was used for more than just getting their attention in order to get them behave... especially on a little kid... I would have rather seen folks use an open hand to swat, not for pain but for attention getting... and I remember some kids, not all mind you and probably not even the majority, that lived in constant "fear of the spoon" that was always present, sticking out of their parents pocket...
I just didn't get it...
when I was growing up, we had the open handed spank, then the swat with the paddle that came with that toy (you know, the one with the long rubber band and rubber ball)... later in life we graduated to the belt... but my parents didn't carry around the paddle or belt all of the time like I saw some folks do... it was put away in a closet and only occasionally brought out...
so... to answer your question... I don't think it was abuse in all cases... but I do think it was in some... a lot of folks got carried away with it...
and I certainly do think it was child abuse in the stories related in this thread... yes, I do.
I'm on the outside, looking inside, what do I see? Much confusion, disillusion, all around me.
I do believe in spanking occaisonally. The spoon may not be child abuse if used correctly. But the way twi did it it was everyone used the spoon even if it wasn't their own child. I believe this is wrong and yes is child abuse.
I don't believe you need to use the spoon and you don't spank for pain but as Tom Strange said is to get their attention...it worked in my house. Although, time outs were great and taking away privileges when they were older.
Many parents in twi used the spoon for every reason to use it. That is wrong and yes is child abuse.
If you do not tell the truth about yourself you can not tell it about other people.
I used the wooden spoon on my daughter one time when she was almost a toddler...I felt so guilty (I realized how wrong it was) that I got rid of all my wooden spoons and never used it on her or my son ever again.
If you do not tell the truth about yourself you can not tell it about other people.
What is your take on a branch coordinator with two children who spent 20 years on the Indianna Campus telling a parent to give a two year old a good hard wack with a wooden spoon if he is not still and quiet during fellowship?
What is your take on a twig coordinator who would tell a mother, the bruises left on her two year old by his father is "what it takes to get the child's attention?"
Is it ok to leave bruises on a child by hitting him/her with a spoon?
Is it reasonable to expect a two year old to sit still and quiet for an hour? Even when it is past his/her bed time?
You want us to answer your question, how about answering some of ours?
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
I never personally witnessed anything I would call child abuse in the way most people would define it. I never personally witnessed any teachings condoning it either. I remember being taught that the rod was to get the child's attention. But whenever I was at a big meeting I couldn't help but think ~ what if I was a small child in this place where every adult has a spoon in their back pocket and every adult has permission ~ or license ~ to use it on me if I don't behave perfectly?
One of the central evils of TWI is the adamant stand taken on its beliefs without any thought or concern about the actual effects upon people ~ even when the evil effects were staring us in the face we found a way to justify them and blame them on the sufferer.
We adults had the choice to accept or reject that ~ although I maintain that we were manipulated and even brainwashed into it. The children had no such choice.
I used to have an open mind but my brains kept falling out.
When I was about 3, my parents were painting some rooms in their house. To keep me out of their hair, they gave me a little thin wood paint stirring paddle and I painted it purple with my water colors. Upon admiring my handiwork, they were so impressed they took my toy away, stuck it on top of the fridge, and said, "Now, if you misbehave, we'll just get down the Purple Paddle!"
Somehow, the fact that that thing was painted purple made it an object of extreme danger! All they had to say for years was "I'll get the Purple Paddle!" and I was good as gold.
They never used it. Not once. Didn't have to.
But then I was a pretty good kid anyway. Most of the time. Honest, I really really was!
Do I think the Trustees are responsible for cases of spankings and beatings: NO
Do I think use of the spoon is child abuse: NO
Do I think spanking is child abuse: NO
Do I have children: NO
Do I think the bible justifies spanking and beatings: YES
Is it possible to go overboard and spank and beat too hard: YES
Did TWI have people involved in it that went overboard and spanked and beat too hard: YES
Is 2 years old too young to spank: ? have no idea, I think it's parents discretion. I wouldn't.
When my father beat me I learned a lesson. Was it child abuse? I don't think so, especially since I know he loved me and wanted the best for me.
I would say generally, that if you think beatings are wrong then you have a problem with Proverbs, which is pretty clear on this topic.
I can say this, I've committed some wrongs in my life that I'm so ashamed of that I wish now, someone was around to haul off and give me some pain... I would have learned a lesson sooner before damage was done.
Someone pointed out to me that you are probably just egging people on, OM...just playing mind games to get a reaction out of people.
I wonder about that...especially since you say things like, "Is it possible to go overboard and spank and beat too hard: YES" I mean, how could anyone seriously say no to that? The very definition of "beat" means you're hitting very hard.
Personally, I'm beginning to think you don't give a dam* about any of this discussion...and that what is important to you is to be able to goad people into saying things you can pooh-pooh and use to back them into corners.
That said, I stand fully and firmly in my belief that hitting is not acceptable.
In the end, so what? Nobody's going to change my mind...I'm not going to change anybody else's mind. What does it matter in the end?
The point of this discussion was not to discuss the theological and/or philosophical basis for or against spanking.
The point of this thread was to discuss child abuse in twi...and whether or not twi leadership knew and promoted child abuse.
I think those questions have been answered quite fully.
Whether you believe the answers or not is your choice.
Since you don't have any children that suffered because of twi, I wondered why you were even involved in this discussion...which brings me right back to the idea that perhaps you use your wooden spoon to stir the .... pot.
The idea that these idiots encouraged people to carry wooden spoons to whack other people's kids is just insane.
The first time somebody did that to my kid, I'd be sticking that spoon where the sun don't shine.
Spanking may not be child abuse, but "beating" definitely is. My wife still has the marks on her legs where her father whipped her with a curtain rod when she was 12 years old. He obviously believed in "spare the rod & spoil the child," didn't he? He threw her brother down the stairs one morning when he was late for school. I guess that taught him a lesson for sure, but it was still abuse in my book.
quote:That said, I stand fully and firmly in my belief that hitting is not acceptable.
Coolwaters, thanks for admitting that. This has everything to do with it, and your ideas about TWI. Naturally, if you believe hitting is child abuse, you'll believe TWI was promoting child abuse.
You're not alone...I've spoken to folks outside TWI that also believe hitting is child abuse. I think your belief may also be a sign of the times we are in. We're losing old, established concepts that were considered valid for thousands of years (another example: marriage used to be between male and female).
How in the he11 did you get the idea that the only abuse in twi was spanking?
What I and others have also posted about was sexual abuse...a pedophile ring lead by a branch leader and a couple of twig leaders who used children's fellowship to get kids and teach them blind obedience, silence and fear.
Do you feel better now, you got CW to say that she doesn't believe in hitting a child at all?
Now take me on. I believe it IS okay to spank a child, if that's what it takes to get through to her/him. (I had one child whose biggest punishment was a time out, another who could have cared less if you put her in her room.) But we're not talking about spanking. We're talking about abuse.
We're talking about telling EVERY parent they had the right to hit ANY child who they felt was out of line. I wouldn't want my kids whacked by some insane parent who didn't have any parameters on when it was right to "get my kid's attention." And it is clear to me that there were parents put in positions of authority who didn't have a clue as to when to use the spoon, or when to teach or distract the child.
We're talking about repeated child sexual molestation, and a BOT that covered it up, just like in the Catholic church. They knew, and they put people in harm's way. They blackballed those who spoke up against the abuse, when they should have thanked them!
And having just come from a mandatory reportersd' seminar, I can tell you that the state considers any hit that leaves a mark as abuse. End of discussion there. But there a lot more subtle forms of abuse, that leave no mark, but can injure for life....
quote: We're talking about telling EVERY parent they had the right to hit ANY child who they felt was out of line.
You're talking about the Corps, correct? Yeah well that was part of the program. You had times when children weren't under their parents supervision, and the training method was with "the rod". The theory was (and I'm winging it a little here) is that other parents are your brothers and sisters in Christ, that being the case you trust one another to do the right thing.
I remember one time as a little kid, I was in Roman Catholic "release time" Wednesday afternoon. We were standing in line at the church, and I said something, I forget what, and the nun hauled off and smacked me right in the face. I don't remember whether it was something I said out of line, or what, but I sure remembered it. Knowing the way I was, it was probably something I said out of line. My parents trusted that the nun did the right thing. It didn't hurt me. What hurt me more was the fact they didn't teach the Word much...I had to get involved with TWI to finally learn some things that made some sense.
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Catcup
I, too am new to this particular thread. I spent several hours this morning looking through it. While I was never a part of any "initiation" ceremony (tongue in cheek or otherwise) that Evan describ
vickles
OM, if twi was so great, how come your not with them?
If you do not tell the truth about yourself you can not tell it about other people.
virginia woolfe
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mj412
Really oldies I talk to them alot and they want everyone to caome back .
they will tell you how it is different and so much better now .
Let me guess is it because a woman is running the program? is it?
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oldiesman
Vicks, if TWI was so terrible, why did folks hang around for 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 years, especially since it was supposed to have encouraged child abuse?
I'm not with them because TWI-2 has been considered by many to be exceedingly legalistic, among some other doctrinal issues I now disagree with. However, if there were a fellowship nearby me, I wouldn't have a problem going to check it out. But it'd be a cold day in hell before I gave them money.
What's your take on the spoon? Is it child abuse?
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CoolWaters
See what I get for not listening to my inner self and putting up one danged post on the board today????
OM, here is something I learned when my daughter was molested by a twi-er:
He used the threat of being spanked to get her to not cry out or fight back. When she told the rape crisis counselor this, the counselor gave me a pamphlet to read. In that pamphlet were statistics. Those statistics showed that over 80% of child molesters use the threat of spanking a child to get a child to be quiet and not fight back or cry out.
That was in 1984. I certainly hope that in this day and age parents no longer teach blind obedience to whatever adult that happens along with the threat of spanking. Of course, if a child is used to being spanked, that'd be a hard thing to teach him/her.
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Tom Strange
OM: can you say "brainwashed cultie"? sure you can...
I'm on the outside, looking inside, what do I see? Much confusion, disillusion, all around me.
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oldiesman
Tom,
What's your take on use of the spoon?
Is it child abuse?
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Tom Strange
well... I've personally not had to "raise" kids... my kids were already way past that phase when I came on the scene... but...
I never really did see much sense to the spoon thing, I'm not against spankin's, but it just always seemed that most folks were pretty quick with that thing... I felt it was used for more than just getting their attention in order to get them behave... especially on a little kid... I would have rather seen folks use an open hand to swat, not for pain but for attention getting... and I remember some kids, not all mind you and probably not even the majority, that lived in constant "fear of the spoon" that was always present, sticking out of their parents pocket...
I just didn't get it...
when I was growing up, we had the open handed spank, then the swat with the paddle that came with that toy (you know, the one with the long rubber band and rubber ball)... later in life we graduated to the belt... but my parents didn't carry around the paddle or belt all of the time like I saw some folks do... it was put away in a closet and only occasionally brought out...
so... to answer your question... I don't think it was abuse in all cases... but I do think it was in some... a lot of folks got carried away with it...
and I certainly do think it was child abuse in the stories related in this thread... yes, I do.
I'm on the outside, looking inside, what do I see? Much confusion, disillusion, all around me.
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vickles
I do believe in spanking occaisonally. The spoon may not be child abuse if used correctly. But the way twi did it it was everyone used the spoon even if it wasn't their own child. I believe this is wrong and yes is child abuse.
I don't believe you need to use the spoon and you don't spank for pain but as Tom Strange said is to get their attention...it worked in my house. Although, time outs were great and taking away privileges when they were older.
Many parents in twi used the spoon for every reason to use it. That is wrong and yes is child abuse.
If you do not tell the truth about yourself you can not tell it about other people.
virginia woolfe
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vickles
I used the wooden spoon on my daughter one time when she was almost a toddler...I felt so guilty (I realized how wrong it was) that I got rid of all my wooden spoons and never used it on her or my son ever again.
If you do not tell the truth about yourself you can not tell it about other people.
virginia woolfe
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Abigail
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Abigail
Oldies,
What is your take on a branch coordinator with two children who spent 20 years on the Indianna Campus telling a parent to give a two year old a good hard wack with a wooden spoon if he is not still and quiet during fellowship?
What is your take on a twig coordinator who would tell a mother, the bruises left on her two year old by his father is "what it takes to get the child's attention?"
Is it ok to leave bruises on a child by hitting him/her with a spoon?
Is it reasonable to expect a two year old to sit still and quiet for an hour? Even when it is past his/her bed time?
You want us to answer your question, how about answering some of ours?
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
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vickles
I'm wondering if OM even has kids of his own when he is stating these kinds of things. OM do you have kids of your own?
If you do not tell the truth about yourself you can not tell it about other people.
virginia woolfe
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Flay Minion
I never personally witnessed anything I would call child abuse in the way most people would define it. I never personally witnessed any teachings condoning it either. I remember being taught that the rod was to get the child's attention. But whenever I was at a big meeting I couldn't help but think ~ what if I was a small child in this place where every adult has a spoon in their back pocket and every adult has permission ~ or license ~ to use it on me if I don't behave perfectly?
One of the central evils of TWI is the adamant stand taken on its beliefs without any thought or concern about the actual effects upon people ~ even when the evil effects were staring us in the face we found a way to justify them and blame them on the sufferer.
We adults had the choice to accept or reject that ~ although I maintain that we were manipulated and even brainwashed into it. The children had no such choice.
I used to have an open mind but my brains kept falling out.
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Watered Garden
The Purple Paddle:
When I was about 3, my parents were painting some rooms in their house. To keep me out of their hair, they gave me a little thin wood paint stirring paddle and I painted it purple with my water colors. Upon admiring my handiwork, they were so impressed they took my toy away, stuck it on top of the fridge, and said, "Now, if you misbehave, we'll just get down the Purple Paddle!"
Somehow, the fact that that thing was painted purple made it an object of extreme danger! All they had to say for years was "I'll get the Purple Paddle!" and I was good as gold.
They never used it. Not once. Didn't have to.
But then I was a pretty good kid anyway. Most of the time. Honest, I really really was!
WG
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oldiesman
Abigail and Vickles,
I will answer your questions in this manner:
Do I think TWI promoted child abuse: NO
Do I think the Trustees are responsible for cases of spankings and beatings: NO
Do I think use of the spoon is child abuse: NO
Do I think spanking is child abuse: NO
Do I have children: NO
Do I think the bible justifies spanking and beatings: YES
Is it possible to go overboard and spank and beat too hard: YES
Did TWI have people involved in it that went overboard and spanked and beat too hard: YES
Is 2 years old too young to spank: ? have no idea, I think it's parents discretion. I wouldn't.
When my father beat me I learned a lesson. Was it child abuse? I don't think so, especially since I know he loved me and wanted the best for me.
I would say generally, that if you think beatings are wrong then you have a problem with Proverbs, which is pretty clear on this topic.
I can say this, I've committed some wrongs in my life that I'm so ashamed of that I wish now, someone was around to haul off and give me some pain... I would have learned a lesson sooner before damage was done.
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CoolWaters
Someone pointed out to me that you are probably just egging people on, OM...just playing mind games to get a reaction out of people.
I wonder about that...especially since you say things like, "Is it possible to go overboard and spank and beat too hard: YES" I mean, how could anyone seriously say no to that? The very definition of "beat" means you're hitting very hard.
Personally, I'm beginning to think you don't give a dam* about any of this discussion...and that what is important to you is to be able to goad people into saying things you can pooh-pooh and use to back them into corners.
That said, I stand fully and firmly in my belief that hitting is not acceptable.
In the end, so what? Nobody's going to change my mind...I'm not going to change anybody else's mind. What does it matter in the end?
The point of this discussion was not to discuss the theological and/or philosophical basis for or against spanking.
The point of this thread was to discuss child abuse in twi...and whether or not twi leadership knew and promoted child abuse.
I think those questions have been answered quite fully.
Whether you believe the answers or not is your choice.
Since you don't have any children that suffered because of twi, I wondered why you were even involved in this discussion...which brings me right back to the idea that perhaps you use your wooden spoon to stir the .... pot.
אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ
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Watered Garden
Cool - that last half of the last line was a GSC classic in my book!
You are wonderful!
WG
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Pirate1974
The idea that these idiots encouraged people to carry wooden spoons to whack other people's kids is just insane.
The first time somebody did that to my kid, I'd be sticking that spoon where the sun don't shine.
Spanking may not be child abuse, but "beating" definitely is. My wife still has the marks on her legs where her father whipped her with a curtain rod when she was 12 years old. He obviously believed in "spare the rod & spoil the child," didn't he? He threw her brother down the stairs one morning when he was late for school. I guess that taught him a lesson for sure, but it was still abuse in my book.
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oldiesman
Coolwaters, thanks for admitting that. This has everything to do with it, and your ideas about TWI. Naturally, if you believe hitting is child abuse, you'll believe TWI was promoting child abuse.
You're not alone...I've spoken to folks outside TWI that also believe hitting is child abuse. I think your belief may also be a sign of the times we are in. We're losing old, established concepts that were considered valid for thousands of years (another example: marriage used to be between male and female).
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CoolWaters
But...OM....
How in the he11 did you get the idea that the only abuse in twi was spanking?
What I and others have also posted about was sexual abuse...a pedophile ring lead by a branch leader and a couple of twig leaders who used children's fellowship to get kids and teach them blind obedience, silence and fear.
Care to talk about that?
אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ
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CoolWaters
Wow! And I wasn't even trying!
:D--> Tee hee. You're pretty wonderful yourself, btw. 
:)-->
אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ
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excathedra
yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death
I will fear no evil for you are with me
your rod and your staff comfort me
♥
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shazdancer
Oldies,
Do you feel better now, you got CW to say that she doesn't believe in hitting a child at all?
Now take me on. I believe it IS okay to spank a child, if that's what it takes to get through to her/him. (I had one child whose biggest punishment was a time out, another who could have cared less if you put her in her room.) But we're not talking about spanking. We're talking about abuse.
We're talking about telling EVERY parent they had the right to hit ANY child who they felt was out of line. I wouldn't want my kids whacked by some insane parent who didn't have any parameters on when it was right to "get my kid's attention." And it is clear to me that there were parents put in positions of authority who didn't have a clue as to when to use the spoon, or when to teach or distract the child.
We're talking about repeated child sexual molestation, and a BOT that covered it up, just like in the Catholic church. They knew, and they put people in harm's way. They blackballed those who spoke up against the abuse, when they should have thanked them!
And having just come from a mandatory reportersd' seminar, I can tell you that the state considers any hit that leaves a mark as abuse. End of discussion there. But there a lot more subtle forms of abuse, that leave no mark, but can injure for life....
Shaz
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oldiesman
You're talking about the Corps, correct? Yeah well that was part of the program. You had times when children weren't under their parents supervision, and the training method was with "the rod". The theory was (and I'm winging it a little here) is that other parents are your brothers and sisters in Christ, that being the case you trust one another to do the right thing.
I remember one time as a little kid, I was in Roman Catholic "release time" Wednesday afternoon. We were standing in line at the church, and I said something, I forget what, and the nun hauled off and smacked me right in the face. I don't remember whether it was something I said out of line, or what, but I sure remembered it. Knowing the way I was, it was probably something I said out of line. My parents trusted that the nun did the right thing. It didn't hurt me. What hurt me more was the fact they didn't teach the Word much...I had to get involved with TWI to finally learn some things that made some sense.
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