People come on here and relate their personal experience, things that happened to them, and you deny them AGAIN...
... so... you're implying that what Lindy related didn't happen? (OM replies:o-->h no, I didn't say that! I'm just saying that TWI didn't condone it)...
Someday you may get a freaking clue... the sooner the better for all of us...
[edited because I said things in the heat of the moment]
I'm on the outside, looking inside, what do I see? Much confusion, disillusion, all around me.
[This message was edited by Tom Strange on February 19, 2004 at 12:55.]
Just to bring the original questions of this thread back to the forefront of people's minds:
quote:Originally posted by Mister P-Mosh:
I saw it mentioned on another thread and I was curious about incidents that anyone might be aware of. What I am curious about is not so much of people in TWI abusing their own children, but whether or not TWI leadership would have been aware of it going on and never addressed it. Alternatively, there could be cases of TWI leadership abusing children but I never heard about it.
I have seen parents get too crazy with "the rod of correction" (aka the wooden spoon) but not doing things that put their kids in the hospital or raping them. Are there any situations where this definitely happened?
And to bring the responses back to remembrance:
quote:Originally posted by Abigail:
Where what definitely happened? Where leadership abused their kids or where leadership was aware of abuse and did nothing?
The latter I can guarantee occured and not just child abuse but spousal abuse as well.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
quote:Originally posted by CoolWaters:
Mr P,
It happened to my family. TWI leadership was not only aware of what happened, but a branch leader was the ring leader and worked with a twig leader...to get more children into their "children's fellowship"...and a limb leader pronounced me, my husband and my unborn child "seed" for trying to stop it all.
אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ
quote:Originally posted by rascal:
aww (((cw)) I have heard from another source about a (maybe the same) situation....it was horrible...as I understand it...one woman said that some lost their children to the state and never got them back...
I do not know if it is the same leader....but I talked with a lady ...and according to her.... most of the children in her state had been molested at one time or another by someone in charge of childrens fellowship.......when discovered...the parents were all intimidated into not going to the authorities...told it would be handled *in house* only to find out in later years.... that the offender had simply been transferred to another state...utterly reprehensible....
quote:Originally posted by Golfie:
My story is mild abuse compared to some others. Our preschool child was being harassed the the childrens fellowship coordinator, the branch coordinator and his wife (both Family Corpse grads) because our child could not recite a bible verse they tried to force memorize. They said our child was rebellious. I saw three big adults staring down, bullying a 4 year old child.
I told them they were provoking and frustrating our our child unto wrath (anger) as in Eph 6:4. The Family Corpse grad said, "I do not think that is what that verse means." That incident got me the boot and my wife saw the whole thing and left with me...thank GOd!
Ephesians 6:4 Fathers, do not irritate and provoke your children to anger [do not exasperate them to resentment], but rear them [tenderly] in the training and discipline and the counsel and admonition of the Lord. Amplified Bible
TWI's wooden spoon policy/wrong teaching totally contradicted the verse above. I pray that children that were in twi do not forsake God or the Bible
because of such abuse.
[This message was edited by Golfie on February 13, 2004 at 0:58.]
quote:Originally posted by insurgent:
I am so sorry for what you all went through. I cringed as I watched a bc instructing a father on how to properly beat his child with the wooden spoon. He would hit the child a few times and then have the father do it. I felt so bad for the child, but was too scared to do anything about it.
Why was I even there for that, you ask? Because the bc wanted all of us - the whole fellowship to learn from the "terrible mistakes" these awful parents were making.
quote:Originally posted by karmicdebt:
Okay...I'll spill, but I don't want to discuss it nor do I want a bunch of posts telling me how sorry you are or anything like that okay?
My child was molested by a TC's teenager...The TC pushed me to let his teen babysit for extra $$$ and it happened. I was so young and stupid...
I notified the parents, and the limb cood. the real ....er is a lot of real traumatic stuff happened in our area (death, spousal abuse, alcoholism) and I'll be damned, everytime something bad happened, the branch guy would say..."oh, yeah, the devil is really kicking up trouble now...cuz "the word" is moving or some trash like that...I didn't want to tell him because I didn't want our experience used as a teaching point!
In his defense, a couple a years later, he, the branch coord. apologized...it was just where his head was at, at that time...I was happy he woke up...
quote:Originally posted by lindyhopper:
Been locked out for a while, but I thought I would add my two bits for the record and for those that doubt.
My personal abuse stories may not have been hospital worthy, but they have left an impression in my mind for life and on my rear for days at times.
The physical abuse stories are also stories that my mother would probably reply with "Don't be a wuss!" but anyway...I think I have posted them here before separately...but here they are.
Being hit with a bible across the face from the full swing of an adult man, knocking me backwards out of my chair. Then he tried to pray for me and reproved me for not automatically letting him. This was in the corps, in front of other 4th thru 6th graders...taught us all a lesson. It was brought on because I forgot my bible. When I was asked wear it was I was in my room. When asked why I said, "well, because I forgot". So he gave me his...upside the head. You can see I obviously deserved it.
Another time, in the family corps, another adult was collecting basketballs and everyone was throwing them to him. I threw mind from his right and yelled his name. I mistakenly hit him in the head or shoulder. Before I could apologize, he threw it back at my head only with much more force, hitting me square in the face. He also showed no remorse and reproved me.
Numerous other times I was lifted of the ground by an open hand hit to the rear or bruised be a spoon. All done by people other than my parents. You see in the corps everyone was your parent and you were to view them that way.
If you didn't you were "taught" to.
The most hurtful abuse had to do with mental pressure and mental abuse into "confessing" about a preWAY sexual abuse. It was mentally beaten out of me using fear of being M&A, fear of losing my family because of that, losing everyone I cared about because of that, fear of being labeled a homo and under devil spirit influence, fear of lying to leadership, fear of disappointing God almighty.
No pressure.
If I had a nickel for every time I heard a leader say that while divisively getting what they wanted out of people, I'd be a rich man.
Lemme see, got involved in Oct 1975, took class in Jan 1976 and left in March/April 1989. Does that put me anywhere close to TWI 1? And if so, may I point out that relatively FEW of us had children then...the majority being right out of highschool, flower power type people, hippies??? So........of course there were very few incidents of rapping children with a wooden spoon as there weren't as many children around as there were as we grew up,got married and started producing.
What was the all over consensus of TWI towards children??? I mean was there an atmoshphere already in place that this could have happened at all levels of TWI??
You betcha.
Some have already testified that VP had corps time with them and said that if anything happened to them, that they, as parents and carriers of God's Word (sounds like a disease) should take care of themselves first since they carried the WOG. They could always have more children if anything happened to the children.
Yeah, they could be restored by having more children to replace the ones that died...so where did we hear that before??
Were children, a heritage from the Lord placed above doctrines and practices and programs? No. Many couples were counseled to abort. How many times when a couple announced that they were pregnant, were they asked if that was a good thing OR if they planned to keep it rather then the news being greeted automatically with a heartfelt congratulations?????
Now where or where did anyone get the idea of it being okay to smack children?? Did it happen in a void of someone not knowing better OR as a natural progression of a lousy attitude towards children??
When I had my first child, I was also told, as another poster posted here that VP said raising children was just like raising dogs. I was told that by TWI CLERGY. Now, how come people don't ask to see chapter and verse on that? I was told by TWI CLERGY that while VP and CG were out with the hunting dogs, VP did a speech on raising children and used the analogy of training the hunting dogs and it was all the same.
Yeah, right.
Quite frankly, I would never hit my animal with a book unless in self defense or with a wooden spoon sooooo they treated children, human children WORSE than the rest of the sane world treats their pets.
I was instructed to use a wooden spoon for when my daughter, baby daughter, under a year old would wiggle when I tried to change her diaper. I didn't and it was all this that turned my stomach, especially coming from a background of being abused.
Then a mother has to get the house all ready, dinner cooked adn dishes done cause the debil will get her if she doesn't (talk about paranoia and superstitious) and pack the diaper bag to go sit in the back room away from the fellowship so the baby doesn't disturb the carriers of the Word. How righteous. How godly. I quit going realizing that I as a mother with a child were really no longer welcomed.
Or how about being pressured to rip your napping child out of the crib for a meeting??? I refused to and got blasted for it.
What moronic thinking did we have that children could and should sit silently, TWI silent, through an entire twig????? Absolute silence? No fidgeting or moving? How normal is that? And if they can't, they get hit or slapped or sent out of the room?????
I don't care who does that, it IS not only child abuse and it is spiritual abuse as well as emotional and mental abuse.
God loves you sooooo much I'm going to whack you with a spoon to keep you silent. Or smack you in the face with my bible (probably a hefty study bible) because you forgot yours.
All in the name of God.
Yeah.
And Jesus did what to the little kids...??? Did he send them away? Did he yell at them??? Did he demand the parents to smack them for interupting his ministry????
NO. He rebuked those who rebuked the kids and took them into his lap....and hung with them and said god help those who offend this little ones.
Damn...I remember my 3 yr old getting bellowed at by a prick of a tc for squirming during fellowship...not even making a noise..after nearly and hour of boooring teaching...
I am ashamed that I was always angry with my son for bringing us shame....no I didn`t hit im...but I sure didn`t stop the tc from picking on the poor little guy and trying to enforce that rediculous standard at nearly every fellowship.
I hope my post didn't hurt any of the parents who felt they may have let their child down during their TWI involvement as that was not the purpose of my post. We all got sucked into the bigger picture there, some more than others. Key phrase...never again.
I was answering the question of how could this be, or chapter and verse and certainly not everyone knew this when of course the whole atmosphere, whether covert or overt (something so many miss in dealing with TWI doctrines) was anti-child so it was not isolated incidents or by products of misundering but rather the direct result of rotten fruit from rotten doctrine.
I was answering the question of how could this be, or chapter and verse and certainly not everyone knew this when of course the whole atmosphere, whether covert or overt (something so many miss in dealing with TWI doctrines) was anti-child so it was not isolated incidents or by products of misundering but rather the direct result of rotten fruit from rotten doctrine.
Thank you mandii, that was very true with a beautiful ending.
Ex, I was locked out because I changed my email on my profile but accidentally deleted the line for my registration email, an address I no longer had. So GS registered me and I couldn't post until I realized I needed to re-re-register with the newer address. I know it’s confusing.
Anyway choo chooo
Speaking of "raising a finger"....
I also remember having a wooden spoon broken over my knee when I raised it to block the blow. Of course a fresh one was never far, so they just went and got another one and held my leg down so they could get me good.
"raising a finger" just doesn't seem to do it justice, OM.
I experienced not only experienced these things but saw much more. Like it or not there was child abuse not only happening in twi but it was taught by the leadership. I was in a corps family and know what was taught and saw it carried out. I saw every adult in the child day care program watching over 6 year olds and under, not only carry wooden spoons but hit those little ones rather hard. Enough to not just make them cry out of shock but out of pain. Hell, I, as a middle-schooler, cried out of pain from it at times.
These were the future leaders of the ministry. Is it logical to think that the F11, F12, F13 (84-87ish) that I was in contact with were the only ones abusing this rule of the "rod of correction"? Not really. It happened in every corps, my friend. They then went out on the field and taught the locals that were just waiting to do everything their leaders said to do.
These are not stories that have been warped and exaggerated over time. I was in twi from the age of 5 to the age of 25, and I saw it the whole way thru, tapering off a little towards the end. The teaching publicly only began to get a little better at a Rock one year where they publicly said the rod was used to get the kids attention, not beat them. This was in the late 80s or early 90's. Why after, what 40 years, did we need such clarification? Because things were out of hand to the point that the ministry was getting a bad image and was being "blamed" (and we don't want that now do we). But the abuses continued and probably continue to different degrees.
Yeah, policy changed a little...to *don`t use the spoon in public* cause ya just never know ...an unbeliever might see ya....n they just don`t understand don`tcha know ....n might report you...damn em
Oldies, I don't know why this is so difficult for you. Yes different things were taught in different areas. I had a branch coordinator who insisted I bring my toddlers to fellowship and a few months later was publicly reproved by a limb coordinator for doing what I had been told to do.
I didn't want to bring my kids to fellowship, they were babies, toddlers, way too young to sit still that long or be out so late. My branch coordinator (who, btw, lived and worked on the Indianna Campus for 20 years) told me I was to bring them. He also told me if they were not still and quiet I was to take them out of the room and give them a good hard whack with a wooden spoon. I was expressly told this, there was nothing implied.
When my ex started leaving bruises on my oldest son with that damned spoon I went to my twig coordinator about it. Her reply was sometimes that is what it takes to get a childs attention.
So don't tell ME child abuse was not taught by LEADERSHIP. I lived it, I was there, my kids were there. YOU WERE NOT THERE!
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
I knew of a lc...GW who proudly taught that he used to discipline his 6wk or 6 month old baby with a shoe lace...
He would smack the baby with it when she wiggled during a diaper change...doesn`t sound like much ...but a shoe lace with that hard plastic on the end of it on baby flesh is horrible to think about....yeah like the infant could connect involuntary movement with that stinging lace...the dumb A--
Shoot babies that young would have no clue why they were getting stung at every diaper change.... these poor kids...and we just lapped it all up and earnestly applied it so that our children would grow up to obey god...grrrr
Wht was it so important for infants to not be allowed to be babies? Why wer children were not allowed to be children? Why was it so important to squelch all of the things that are just natural for a child to do...to turn them into functioning non thinking little robots...not allowed to indulge in emotions...to steal their child hood away...to not allow them any normalicy such as a stable home...friends in school...outside twi activities like ball teams scouting etc?
Maybe you all can clarify some of the history of children's fellowship for me. I agree with Mandii, there wasn't much teaching about the rod at first, because we were all young ourselves, no children. But then instruction developed, mostly around the use of the wooden spoon.
C**** Ber****** coordinated Children's Fellowship for Family Corps 4/6, when I was there. She had a background in early childhood ed, and was very specific about having fellowships meet the needs of children according to their age, i.e., little children should not be expected to sit for long periods, etc. Her new husband G*** was her assistant. I was pregnant with my first kid -- I was paying close attention to how I should raise that kid.
At Lightbearers, I saw a Family Corps 5 mom use the spoon to "help" a child do his homework. When he got an answer wrong, whack! Sure enough, soon he was too scared to even think straight, let alone get an answer right. I asked CB about this incident when I got back. No, she said, that was definitely not the right way to use the spoon.
Fast forward several years, and I hear that C and G split up (is that correct?), and that now G*** runs children's fellowship. And I hear such lousy reports from all of you. Where did C**** go? Is this another case of the husband being preferred for leadership because he is the man?
These things are hard to post about, hard to read about, hard to think about, hard to remember.
I personally thank all who share here...
Mr P-Mosh for starting the thread. No matter how often these things get hashed out on these threads, it is serving many purposes to go around another time: the subject is not forgotten, new posters get an opportunity to participate and ask questions or whatever they need/want to do, people get an opportunity to take back a little bit more of themselves that was lost due to what happened, people get an opportunity to rethink their feelings and positions on the subject, people get to say what they wanted to say when it was happening, people get to see how much they have grown, people can see the experience moving back behind them and getting smaller and smaller in the distance of time, and a whole lot of other needed and refreshing things happen when people have the opportunity to talk about what was "in the lockbox" until it no longer has any power.
Those who share their experiences. It is very difficult to open up and let it come out. Things buried come to the top...and that can be very frightening and is often very painful...but it is also very relieving to know that it all can be talked about now.
Those who are willing to ask honest questions and hear honest answers. I cannot imagine how hard it is to find out that what seemed like such an innocuous group was not. I cannot imagine what I would feel like if I were the one discovering this information for the first time.
Those who can do little more than read in horror. This is hard stuff.
Those who present disbelief. These are the folks that provide the opportunity to work things out in my head and realize that it wasn't my fault.
Although hard and sometimes harsh, this thread and others like it help me loosen the choke-hold of fear and sorrow that silence and isolation breed.
And OM, for what it's worth, I want you to know that because of your posts, I have been able to finally find the eye of the storm in the whirlwind echoes of twi's barrages that blamed me, my husband, my daughter and my son. You've stayed around here and taken the brunt of things pent up for many years. Whether you were playing devil's advocate or if you honestly don't see my points, you deserve a hug because you're at least openly expressing the twi-think that built the dungeon called "lock box". {{{{{OM}}}}}
When I was in FC 20 (3 months only thankGod) we were required to carry a spoon at all times, to whack any child who was not toeing the line. The rules were very strict, but they only applied to the children of WC; staff kids were exempt.
I finally just lost the damn thing. But I found out later that my son was the recipient of many blows - from him, not from anyone who wanted to come forward and say, oh, yeah, I had to hit your son today.
I don't think anyone who wasn't there could have possibly understood. We were not with him more than meal time. He was pitifully unhappy and screaming for attention the only way he knew - acting out! I really think some of those people who taught, promoted, and insisted on this crap would look much better with a big ole' wooden spoon hanging out their.....nose.
I heard it many times explained that a study of the word rod and it's description by said study indicated something that reminded the researcher of a wooden spoon...
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Catcup
I, too am new to this particular thread. I spent several hours this morning looking through it. While I was never a part of any "initiation" ceremony (tongue in cheek or otherwise) that Evan describ
CoolWaters
Sorry, OM, I'm not going to play "blame the victim" with you.
You've been given facts. You've been given collaborated facts. You've been told how and where to find the documentation.
What I think/feel/believe (now or then), or what I did or did not do "right", has no bearing on whether or not there was condoned child abuse in twi.
אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ
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Tom Strange
OM... once again you are so unbelievable!
People come on here and relate their personal experience, things that happened to them, and you deny them AGAIN...
... so... you're implying that what Lindy related didn't happen? (OM replies
:o-->h no, I didn't say that! I'm just saying that TWI didn't condone it)...
Someday you may get a freaking clue... the sooner the better for all of us...
[edited because I said things in the heat of the moment]
I'm on the outside, looking inside, what do I see? Much confusion, disillusion, all around me.
[This message was edited by Tom Strange on February 19, 2004 at 12:55.]
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CoolWaters
Just to bring the original questions of this thread back to the forefront of people's minds:
And to bring the responses back to remembrance:
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Mandii
Lemme see, got involved in Oct 1975, took class in Jan 1976 and left in March/April 1989. Does that put me anywhere close to TWI 1? And if so, may I point out that relatively FEW of us had children then...the majority being right out of highschool, flower power type people, hippies??? So........of course there were very few incidents of rapping children with a wooden spoon as there weren't as many children around as there were as we grew up,got married and started producing.
What was the all over consensus of TWI towards children??? I mean was there an atmoshphere already in place that this could have happened at all levels of TWI??
You betcha.
Some have already testified that VP had corps time with them and said that if anything happened to them, that they, as parents and carriers of God's Word (sounds like a disease) should take care of themselves first since they carried the WOG. They could always have more children if anything happened to the children.
Yeah, they could be restored by having more children to replace the ones that died...so where did we hear that before??
Were children, a heritage from the Lord placed above doctrines and practices and programs? No. Many couples were counseled to abort. How many times when a couple announced that they were pregnant, were they asked if that was a good thing OR if they planned to keep it rather then the news being greeted automatically with a heartfelt congratulations?????
Now where or where did anyone get the idea of it being okay to smack children?? Did it happen in a void of someone not knowing better OR as a natural progression of a lousy attitude towards children??
When I had my first child, I was also told, as another poster posted here that VP said raising children was just like raising dogs. I was told that by TWI CLERGY. Now, how come people don't ask to see chapter and verse on that? I was told by TWI CLERGY that while VP and CG were out with the hunting dogs, VP did a speech on raising children and used the analogy of training the hunting dogs and it was all the same.
Yeah, right.
Quite frankly, I would never hit my animal with a book unless in self defense or with a wooden spoon sooooo they treated children, human children WORSE than the rest of the sane world treats their pets.
I was instructed to use a wooden spoon for when my daughter, baby daughter, under a year old would wiggle when I tried to change her diaper. I didn't and it was all this that turned my stomach, especially coming from a background of being abused.
Then a mother has to get the house all ready, dinner cooked adn dishes done cause the debil will get her if she doesn't (talk about paranoia and superstitious) and pack the diaper bag to go sit in the back room away from the fellowship so the baby doesn't disturb the carriers of the Word. How righteous. How godly. I quit going realizing that I as a mother with a child were really no longer welcomed.
Or how about being pressured to rip your napping child out of the crib for a meeting??? I refused to and got blasted for it.
What moronic thinking did we have that children could and should sit silently, TWI silent, through an entire twig????? Absolute silence? No fidgeting or moving? How normal is that? And if they can't, they get hit or slapped or sent out of the room?????
I don't care who does that, it IS not only child abuse and it is spiritual abuse as well as emotional and mental abuse.
God loves you sooooo much I'm going to whack you with a spoon to keep you silent. Or smack you in the face with my bible (probably a hefty study bible) because you forgot yours.
All in the name of God.
Yeah.
And Jesus did what to the little kids...??? Did he send them away? Did he yell at them??? Did he demand the parents to smack them for interupting his ministry????
NO. He rebuked those who rebuked the kids and took them into his lap....and hung with them and said god help those who offend this little ones.
God help those who offended them in god's name.
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rascal
Damn...I remember my 3 yr old getting bellowed at by a prick of a tc for squirming during fellowship...not even making a noise..after nearly and hour of boooring teaching...
I am ashamed that I was always angry with my son for bringing us shame....no I didn`t hit im...but I sure didn`t stop the tc from picking on the poor little guy and trying to enforce that rediculous standard at nearly every fellowship.
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excathedra
♥
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Watered Garden
Mandii,
AMEN!
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Watered Garden
Mandii,
AMEN! Well amen twice I guess.
WG
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Mandii
I hope my post didn't hurt any of the parents who felt they may have let their child down during their TWI involvement as that was not the purpose of my post. We all got sucked into the bigger picture there, some more than others. Key phrase...never again.
I was answering the question of how could this be, or chapter and verse and certainly not everyone knew this when of course the whole atmosphere, whether covert or overt (something so many miss in dealing with TWI doctrines) was anti-child so it was not isolated incidents or by products of misundering but rather the direct result of rotten fruit from rotten doctrine.
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Mandii
(((((((Watered Garden)))))))
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CoolWaters
Well said, Mandii.
אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ
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lindyhopper
Thank you mandii, that was very true with a beautiful ending.
Ex, I was locked out because I changed my email on my profile but accidentally deleted the line for my registration email, an address I no longer had. So GS registered me and I couldn't post until I realized I needed to re-re-register with the newer address. I know it’s confusing.
Anyway choo chooo
Speaking of "raising a finger"....
I also remember having a wooden spoon broken over my knee when I raised it to block the blow. Of course a fresh one was never far, so they just went and got another one and held my leg down so they could get me good.
"raising a finger" just doesn't seem to do it justice, OM.
I experienced not only experienced these things but saw much more. Like it or not there was child abuse not only happening in twi but it was taught by the leadership. I was in a corps family and know what was taught and saw it carried out. I saw every adult in the child day care program watching over 6 year olds and under, not only carry wooden spoons but hit those little ones rather hard. Enough to not just make them cry out of shock but out of pain. Hell, I, as a middle-schooler, cried out of pain from it at times.
These were the future leaders of the ministry. Is it logical to think that the F11, F12, F13 (84-87ish) that I was in contact with were the only ones abusing this rule of the "rod of correction"? Not really. It happened in every corps, my friend. They then went out on the field and taught the locals that were just waiting to do everything their leaders said to do.
These are not stories that have been warped and exaggerated over time. I was in twi from the age of 5 to the age of 25, and I saw it the whole way thru, tapering off a little towards the end. The teaching publicly only began to get a little better at a Rock one year where they publicly said the rod was used to get the kids attention, not beat them. This was in the late 80s or early 90's. Why after, what 40 years, did we need such clarification? Because things were out of hand to the point that the ministry was getting a bad image and was being "blamed" (and we don't want that now do we). But the abuses continued and probably continue to different degrees.
By the way... I've got a finger to raise for ya.
OK then...Who's your mommy?
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rascal
Yeah, policy changed a little...to *don`t use the spoon in public* cause ya just never know ...an unbeliever might see ya....n they just don`t understand don`tcha know ....n might report you...damn em
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lindyhopper
yeah, rascal,
I actually think I remember it being said that we should becareful in public, because of the way the 'stupid world' viewed child abuse.
OK then...Who's your mommy?
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Abigail
Oldies, I don't know why this is so difficult for you. Yes different things were taught in different areas. I had a branch coordinator who insisted I bring my toddlers to fellowship and a few months later was publicly reproved by a limb coordinator for doing what I had been told to do.
I didn't want to bring my kids to fellowship, they were babies, toddlers, way too young to sit still that long or be out so late. My branch coordinator (who, btw, lived and worked on the Indianna Campus for 20 years) told me I was to bring them. He also told me if they were not still and quiet I was to take them out of the room and give them a good hard whack with a wooden spoon. I was expressly told this, there was nothing implied.
When my ex started leaving bruises on my oldest son with that damned spoon I went to my twig coordinator about it. Her reply was sometimes that is what it takes to get a childs attention.
So don't tell ME child abuse was not taught by LEADERSHIP. I lived it, I was there, my kids were there. YOU WERE NOT THERE!
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
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rascal
I knew of a lc...GW who proudly taught that he used to discipline his 6wk or 6 month old baby with a shoe lace...
He would smack the baby with it when she wiggled during a diaper change...doesn`t sound like much ...but a shoe lace with that hard plastic on the end of it on baby flesh is horrible to think about....yeah like the infant could connect involuntary movement with that stinging lace...the dumb A--
Shoot babies that young would have no clue why they were getting stung at every diaper change.... these poor kids...and we just lapped it all up and earnestly applied it so that our children would grow up to obey god...grrrr
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rascal
Wht was it so important for infants to not be allowed to be babies? Why wer children were not allowed to be children? Why was it so important to squelch all of the things that are just natural for a child to do...to turn them into functioning non thinking little robots...not allowed to indulge in emotions...to steal their child hood away...to not allow them any normalicy such as a stable home...friends in school...outside twi activities like ball teams scouting etc?
Why?
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shazdancer
HI everybody,
Maybe you all can clarify some of the history of children's fellowship for me. I agree with Mandii, there wasn't much teaching about the rod at first, because we were all young ourselves, no children. But then instruction developed, mostly around the use of the wooden spoon.
C**** Ber****** coordinated Children's Fellowship for Family Corps 4/6, when I was there. She had a background in early childhood ed, and was very specific about having fellowships meet the needs of children according to their age, i.e., little children should not be expected to sit for long periods, etc. Her new husband G*** was her assistant. I was pregnant with my first kid -- I was paying close attention to how I should raise that kid.
At Lightbearers, I saw a Family Corps 5 mom use the spoon to "help" a child do his homework. When he got an answer wrong, whack! Sure enough, soon he was too scared to even think straight, let alone get an answer right. I asked CB about this incident when I got back. No, she said, that was definitely not the right way to use the spoon.
Fast forward several years, and I hear that C and G split up (is that correct?), and that now G*** runs children's fellowship. And I hear such lousy reports from all of you. Where did C**** go? Is this another case of the husband being preferred for leadership because he is the man?
Regards,
Shaz
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excathedra
shaz i don't know. i've heard sorry sad things about G which i hope are not true
and far as all this spoon crap and the laces thing, i can't even express how sick i feel
may god forgive you because i don't know if i could
♥
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CoolWaters
{{{{{{{{{Everybody}}}}}}}}}
These things are hard to post about, hard to read about, hard to think about, hard to remember.
I personally thank all who share here...
Mr P-Mosh for starting the thread. No matter how often these things get hashed out on these threads, it is serving many purposes to go around another time: the subject is not forgotten, new posters get an opportunity to participate and ask questions or whatever they need/want to do, people get an opportunity to take back a little bit more of themselves that was lost due to what happened, people get an opportunity to rethink their feelings and positions on the subject, people get to say what they wanted to say when it was happening, people get to see how much they have grown, people can see the experience moving back behind them and getting smaller and smaller in the distance of time, and a whole lot of other needed and refreshing things happen when people have the opportunity to talk about what was "in the lockbox" until it no longer has any power.
Those who share their experiences. It is very difficult to open up and let it come out. Things buried come to the top...and that can be very frightening and is often very painful...but it is also very relieving to know that it all can be talked about now.
Those who are willing to ask honest questions and hear honest answers. I cannot imagine how hard it is to find out that what seemed like such an innocuous group was not. I cannot imagine what I would feel like if I were the one discovering this information for the first time.
Those who can do little more than read in horror. This is hard stuff.
Those who present disbelief. These are the folks that provide the opportunity to work things out in my head and realize that it wasn't my fault.
Although hard and sometimes harsh, this thread and others like it help me loosen the choke-hold of fear and sorrow that silence and isolation breed.
And OM, for what it's worth, I want you to know that because of your posts, I have been able to finally find the eye of the storm in the whirlwind echoes of twi's barrages that blamed me, my husband, my daughter and my son. You've stayed around here and taken the brunt of things pent up for many years. Whether you were playing devil's advocate or if you honestly don't see my points, you deserve a hug because you're at least openly expressing the twi-think that built the dungeon called "lock box". {{{{{OM}}}}}
אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ
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Watered Garden
When I was in FC 20 (3 months only thankGod) we were required to carry a spoon at all times, to whack any child who was not toeing the line. The rules were very strict, but they only applied to the children of WC; staff kids were exempt.
I finally just lost the damn thing. But I found out later that my son was the recipient of many blows - from him, not from anyone who wanted to come forward and say, oh, yeah, I had to hit your son today.
I don't think anyone who wasn't there could have possibly understood. We were not with him more than meal time. He was pitifully unhappy and screaming for attention the only way he knew - acting out! I really think some of those people who taught, promoted, and insisted on this crap would look much better with a big ole' wooden spoon hanging out their.....nose.
WG
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sadie
From what I have been reading the "wooden spoon" wasn't the only rod encouraged to be used for abuse within TWI.
Where did TWI come up with the wooden spoon being the "rod" mentioned in the scriptures?
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Mandii
Hi Sadie, nice to meet you.
I heard it many times explained that a study of the word rod and it's description by said study indicated something that reminded the researcher of a wooden spoon...
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excathedra
yeah and where'd they come up with that other rod -- of blessing ? ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
gag me with a wooden spoon
♥
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