It's funny how after all these posts and all the links and all the information in the links on this board, GSCI, GSC homepage and on WayDale that some just refuse to learn.
Proverbs 22:15 - Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.
Proverbs 23:13,14 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
Proverbs 29:15 15 The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.
******************
If you need more than that, do the legwork yourself.
Oldies...more and more I think you must have some sort of vested interest in making twi look acceptable....no reasonable person with access to the volumes of info that you have had could still defend this bunch.
Thank you. This was VERY useful information for me. Nothing to do with this thread but for me personally. I appreciate you taking the time to put this up.
quote:Oldies...more and more I think you must have some sort of vested interest in making twi look acceptable....no reasonable person with access to the volumes of info that you have had could still defend this bunch.
Of course TWI-1 was acceptable...are you kidding?
Since I was involved for 17 years in a system that supposedly promoted child abuse, I would have picked up on it long before now. Wouldn't you have?
By the way, we were taught in TWI that "the rod of correction" was to be used with love, to help the child, not used to beat the crap out of the child out of anger or malice. You know that as well as I so please stop trying to re-write history. But I know there are folks who think if one even raises a finger to a child, it's child abuse. If those are your beliefs, you should have left TWI the moment you learned about those biblical passages about the rod. 20-30 years later and it qualifies for child abuse? I know you're trying very hard to put TWI in its most miserable light possible, it just doesn't work when you rewrite history.
I am not denying the legitimate cases of child abuse, I've even seen it happen myself. But it's how you're framing the argument what I object to. Everything is TWI's fault, all the time. Period. There's not even a hint of objectivity.
TY. If I seem a bit b1tchy right now...I am. Nothing personal to anybody in particular...well, maybe to OM...it's just unbelievable to me the lengths people will go to just so their internal realities won't be disturbed.
Yeah, yeah, yeah...I know...I did it all the time just to be able to stay in twi. I still do it without even realizing it. Life sucks and we're all imbecile brunts of a terrible joke. Then the mood passes and I do what I can to learn and grow.
One thing I saw in TWI-II was a trend toward IMPLYING things versus actually stating them. That way they could still tell you what to do (like whack your kid) without saying it.
An example I saw personally:
Mom is told to use her rod of correction to quiet a child in fellowship. Kids squirms more. FC yells "You need to get you control of that child now!" It scared a new (to TWI) mom and caused her to hit the kid harder with a spoon. Would she have otherwise? Never saw do it any other time. However, now she was in front of a group of people, embarrassed and very nervous. Did anyone tell her to hit her kid again harder? No. Was that the result? You bet.
I took her daughter for her and sat outside. The girl was about 3 or 4 and somehow couldn't sit motionless while this windbag droned on for almost an hour teaching. On a school night, no less! It went past 8:30 at night while he read sections from an encyclopedia on his favorite topic. Ugh!
Anyway, the girl calmed down outside and started rubbing her eyes. She was just beat. Any parent with even the slightest clue would suspect the kid was tired. I don't fault the mom though as she was scared to death and trying to do what she was told. She reacted out of fear due to the harsh direction of someone essentially telling her to hit her kid again. That jerk would be safe in a court of law but I question if he could wiggle out of it in God's eyes.
I agree that in public forums they were taught one way. However, I saw people try to twist them in many ways. Mostly WC types. In private. NEVER in public. No, in front of new people, it was always "we love our kids." However, regular attendees were usually on the receiving end.
All of my comments apply to TWI-II. Wasn't around for the first one.
No harm here. I can understand as I had to deal with it for my kids. Thankfully, I'm pretty tall and big guy so WC usually didn't try to mess with me. I'm not a violent person but can usually "convey my displeasure effectively" to anyone who messes with my kids.
Since I was involved for 17 years in a system that supposedly promoted child abuse, I would have picked up on it long before now. Wouldn't you have?
I'm sure you did. That's not the question, imo. Try reading the information in some of the links I posted. You'll find out a few things about why you insist you didn't.
quote:By the way, we were taught in TWI that "the rod of correction" was to be used with love, to help the child, not used to beat the crap out of the child out of anger or malice. You know that as well as I so please stop trying to re-write history.
"We" whom? Speak for yourself. Unless you were at every twig, every branch meeting, every believer's meeting, every one-on-one "teaching" session that each of us are talking about, then you have no idea what any of us were taught. And since you could not possibly have been in all places at all times, you are the one re-writing history to assuage your need to revere people and organizations.
quote:But I know there are folks who think if one even raises a finger to a child, it's child abuse.
I'm one such person. I became one such person after I left twi and found out what I had done and what I had allowed to be done to my daughter.
quote:If those are your beliefs, you should have left TWI the moment you learned about those biblical passages about the rod.
Don't should on people. That's a coward's way of covering up for some personal lack.
quote:20-30 years later and it qualifies for child abuse?
Not 20-30 years later. It was child abuse then, too. Whether or not anyone recognized it as child abuse is a different matter. Again I suggest you read the information on the links I posted. You'll learn something...if you're willing to learn.
quote:I know you're trying very hard to put TWI in its most miserable light possible, it just doesn't work when you rewrite history.
Nobody's trying hard at all. Just stating the facts. The facts are supported by documentation. Have you even tried to obtain the documentation? No? I didn't think so. You don't want to know the real history.
quote:I am not denying the legitimate cases of child abuse, I've even seen it happen myself.
Ummm...OM...in your first paragraph you say that you hadn't pick up on it. Which is it?
quote:But it's how you're framing the argument what I object to. Everything is TWI's fault, all the time. Period. There's not even a hint of objectivity.
Lessee...
A limb leader, a branch leader and twig leader go to children's fellowship one day (gawd I wish this were the opening of a joke) and teach all the little boys and girls to obey silently and immediately or get whacked...or worse.
quote:Did anyone tell her to hit her kid again harder? No. Was that the result? You bet.
The coordinator wanted silence at his meeting. I don't see how he condoned child abuse. is that what you're suggesting?
JT, We've all seen and been a part of this happening. A young child is screaming during twig. What do you do? The twig coordinator says "why not beat the crap out of him"? Is that what you're suggesting was the norm? What I think was the norm was the parent leaving the room with the screaming child, as you did. I've seen that happen many times. So where was TWI promoting child abuse?
So then use of the wooden spoon constitutes child abuse?
First, OM, I edited out the name I called you. My bad. That was childish of me.
Second, you said,
quote:Originally posted by oldiesman:
We were taught the right way to apply those verses.
What is the "right way" to apply "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."?
[This message was edited by CoolWaters on February 19, 2004 at 11:45.]
Let me tell you friend...it`s a little hard to be objective when you are on the recieving end of evil.....matter of fact it tends to .... you off.
It has been commonly reported....Abuse happened...Vp knew about it .... Vp was a sexual predator......Leaders that vp personally put into positions of authority abused and covered for abuse...beating the snot outta the mini corpes WAS condoned...
Every single one of those situations have been personally attested to by posters here ...
Dems the facts Jack! Please... try to deal with THEM in an objective manner will ya? Rather than hinting that it never happened and that we are all liars.
OH no you don`t ....CW don`t let him draw you off on a tangent ...He is quite effective at burying the real issue at hand...This tactic has served Oldies VERY well in the past....whenever abuse topics arise...
OM--bet you do not have kids, nor had them while in twi...so you REALLy know everything that went on, do ya??? once again, you were a sheltered little boy who saw nothing because it never even entered your head that it could go on. You have a strange naivete that seems to invest you with some major-league blinders...you will never get it, om--it's not in ya....sorry
Duh me...I edited a post instead of replying to a post. Here is the post:
quote:Originally posted by CoolWaters:
quote: Originally posted by oldiesman:
So then use of the wooden spoon constitutes child abuse?
First, OM, I edited out the name I called you. My bad. That was childish of me.
Second, you said,
quote:Originally posted by oldiesman:
We were taught the right way to apply those verses.
What is the "right way" to apply "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."?
quote:What is the "right way" to apply "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."?
That is the question I'm asking you. You don't believe there is a right way to do that? All those years in twi and you can't come up with the right way to do that? You were there all those years and the thought about doing that the right way never crossed you mind?
What do you believe today? Is spanking child abuse? use of the spoon?
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Catcup
I, too am new to this particular thread. I spent several hours this morning looking through it. While I was never a part of any "initiation" ceremony (tongue in cheek or otherwise) that Evan describ
CoolWaters
Some things to learn if you're interested...
http://www.leavingabuse.com/why_women_stay.html
http://www.letswrap.com/dvinfo/whystay.htm
http://www.soencouragement.org/whydowomenstay.htm
http://www.watchman.org/profile/abusepro.htm
http://www.watchman.org/cults/precond1.htm
It's funny how after all these posts and all the links and all the information in the links on this board, GSCI, GSC homepage and on WayDale that some just refuse to learn.
אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ
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CoolWaters
And for chapter and verse:
Proverbs 22:15 - Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.
Proverbs 23:13,14 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
Proverbs 29:15 15 The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.
******************
If you need more than that, do the legwork yourself.
אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ
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CoolWaters
And there we have it...
אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ
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JustThinking
CW,
Thank you. This was VERY useful information for me. Nothing to do with this thread but for me personally. I appreciate you taking the time to put this up.
JT
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oldiesman
Of course TWI-1 was acceptable...are you kidding?
Since I was involved for 17 years in a system that supposedly promoted child abuse, I would have picked up on it long before now. Wouldn't you have?
By the way, we were taught in TWI that "the rod of correction" was to be used with love, to help the child, not used to beat the crap out of the child out of anger or malice. You know that as well as I so please stop trying to re-write history. But I know there are folks who think if one even raises a finger to a child, it's child abuse. If those are your beliefs, you should have left TWI the moment you learned about those biblical passages about the rod. 20-30 years later and it qualifies for child abuse? I know you're trying very hard to put TWI in its most miserable light possible, it just doesn't work when you rewrite history.
I am not denying the legitimate cases of child abuse, I've even seen it happen myself. But it's how you're framing the argument what I object to. Everything is TWI's fault, all the time. Period. There's not even a hint of objectivity.
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oldiesman
Coolwaters,
I don't want to put words in your mouth.
Are you saying that those verses in Proverbs promote child abuse?
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CoolWaters
I am saying that in twi those verses were used to condone child abuse.
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CoolWaters
JT,
TY. If I seem a bit b1tchy right now...I am. Nothing personal to anybody in particular...well, maybe to OM...it's just unbelievable to me the lengths people will go to just so their internal realities won't be disturbed.
Yeah, yeah, yeah...I know...I did it all the time just to be able to stay in twi. I still do it without even realizing it. Life sucks and we're all imbecile brunts of a terrible joke. Then the mood passes and I do what I can to learn and grow.
אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ
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oldiesman
Nonsense.
We were taught the right way to apply those verses. You're saying we weren't. You're rewriting history.
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excathedra
poor lindy, one of my favorite favorites here
you sweetheart
♥
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JustThinking
Oldies & CW,
One thing I saw in TWI-II was a trend toward IMPLYING things versus actually stating them. That way they could still tell you what to do (like whack your kid) without saying it.
An example I saw personally:
Mom is told to use her rod of correction to quiet a child in fellowship. Kids squirms more. FC yells "You need to get you control of that child now!" It scared a new (to TWI) mom and caused her to hit the kid harder with a spoon. Would she have otherwise? Never saw do it any other time. However, now she was in front of a group of people, embarrassed and very nervous. Did anyone tell her to hit her kid again harder? No. Was that the result? You bet.
I took her daughter for her and sat outside. The girl was about 3 or 4 and somehow couldn't sit motionless while this windbag droned on for almost an hour teaching. On a school night, no less! It went past 8:30 at night while he read sections from an encyclopedia on his favorite topic. Ugh!
Anyway, the girl calmed down outside and started rubbing her eyes. She was just beat. Any parent with even the slightest clue would suspect the kid was tired. I don't fault the mom though as she was scared to death and trying to do what she was told. She reacted out of fear due to the harsh direction of someone essentially telling her to hit her kid again. That jerk would be safe in a court of law but I question if he could wiggle out of it in God's eyes.
JT
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JustThinking
Oldies,
I agree that in public forums they were taught one way. However, I saw people try to twist them in many ways. Mostly WC types. In private. NEVER in public. No, in front of new people, it was always "we love our kids." However, regular attendees were usually on the receiving end.
All of my comments apply to TWI-II. Wasn't around for the first one.
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JustThinking
CW,
No harm here. I can understand as I had to deal with it for my kids. Thankfully, I'm pretty tall and big guy so WC usually didn't try to mess with me. I'm not a violent person but can usually "convey my displeasure effectively" to anyone who messes with my kids.
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CoolWaters
I'm sure you did. That's not the question, imo. Try reading the information in some of the links I posted. You'll find out a few things about why you insist you didn't.
"We" whom? Speak for yourself. Unless you were at every twig, every branch meeting, every believer's meeting, every one-on-one "teaching" session that each of us are talking about, then you have no idea what any of us were taught. And since you could not possibly have been in all places at all times, you are the one re-writing history to assuage your need to revere people and organizations.
I'm one such person. I became one such person after I left twi and found out what I had done and what I had allowed to be done to my daughter.
Don't should on people. That's a coward's way of covering up for some personal lack.
Not 20-30 years later. It was child abuse then, too. Whether or not anyone recognized it as child abuse is a different matter. Again I suggest you read the information on the links I posted. You'll learn something...if you're willing to learn.
Nobody's trying hard at all. Just stating the facts. The facts are supported by documentation. Have you even tried to obtain the documentation? No? I didn't think so. You don't want to know the real history.
Ummm...OM...in your first paragraph you say that you hadn't pick up on it. Which is it?
Lessee...
A limb leader, a branch leader and twig leader go to children's fellowship one day (gawd I wish this were the opening of a joke) and teach all the little boys and girls to obey silently and immediately or get whacked...or worse.
Hmmmmm.
Who do you want to objectify in this scenario?
אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ
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oldiesman
The coordinator wanted silence at his meeting. I don't see how he condoned child abuse. is that what you're suggesting?
JT, We've all seen and been a part of this happening. A young child is screaming during twig. What do you do? The twig coordinator says "why not beat the crap out of him"? Is that what you're suggesting was the norm? What I think was the norm was the parent leaving the room with the screaming child, as you did. I've seen that happen many times. So where was TWI promoting child abuse?
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CoolWaters
First, OM, I edited out the name I called you. My bad. That was childish of me.
Second, you said,
What is the "right way" to apply "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."?
[This message was edited by CoolWaters on February 19, 2004 at 11:45.]
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CoolWaters
Absolutely!
Based upon the definition of condone, that twig leader absolutely disregarded without protest or censure the hitting of that child.
אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ
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rascal
Let me tell you friend...it`s a little hard to be objective when you are on the recieving end of evil.....matter of fact it tends to .... you off.
It has been commonly reported....Abuse happened...Vp knew about it .... Vp was a sexual predator......Leaders that vp personally put into positions of authority abused and covered for abuse...beating the snot outta the mini corpes WAS condoned...
Every single one of those situations have been personally attested to by posters here ...
Dems the facts Jack! Please... try to deal with THEM in an objective manner will ya? Rather than hinting that it never happened and that we are all liars.
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oldiesman
So then use of the wooden spoon constitutes child abuse?
CW, do you believe that spanking a child constitutes child abuse?
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rascal
OH no you don`t ....CW don`t let him draw you off on a tangent ...He is quite effective at burying the real issue at hand...This tactic has served Oldies VERY well in the past....whenever abuse topics arise...
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alfakat
OM--bet you do not have kids, nor had them while in twi...so you REALLy know everything that went on, do ya??? once again, you were a sheltered little boy who saw nothing because it never even entered your head that it could go on. You have a strange naivete that seems to invest you with some major-league blinders...you will never get it, om--it's not in ya....sorry
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CoolWaters
Duh me...I edited a post instead of replying to a post. Here is the post:
אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ
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CoolWaters
rascal,
Yeah...I know...
The topic here is "Child Abuse in TWI". To get into an discussion about whether or not I believe in spanking would be a convenient choo-choo.
The problem is that the bible says that to deliver a child from hell, one must beat the child.
twi took that verse, handed a weapon to adults, and sent those adults out to "save children from hell".
Period.
אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ
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oldiesman
That is the question I'm asking you. You don't believe there is a right way to do that? All those years in twi and you can't come up with the right way to do that? You were there all those years and the thought about doing that the right way never crossed you mind?
What do you believe today? Is spanking child abuse? use of the spoon?
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