I have some insight from a parenting seminar I took that I will add to this thread later. Right now my ancient dog who I think has sundowner syndrome is barking and might wake up my sleeping grandson. It's from a seminar at church by a minister and his wife who had training by Paul Hegstrom. It is so germane to this topic.
I have just joined this forum. I haven't had any involvement or contact with twi in over twenty years, but from birth to the age of about 12, twi was a constant presence in my life.
I was raised by a single mom, and whatever adults were around at the time. I was a mini-wow three times, and we lived in a lot of roommate situations with other wayfers aside from that.
My mom used the wooden spoon, but never to excess. I was always informed when I was misbehaving, told what the consequences would be if it happened again, and given sincere loving hugs after being spanked. I don't remember anyone being allowed to discipline me who mom did not explicitly trust, and I don't remember any instances (besides the few I will illustrate later) of someone taking it upon themselves to discipline me harshly or with out cause.
I have a lot of fond memories of people I grew up around, and lived with. Great folks in Spokane like Tom Lipenski and his family, Skip and Ellen, and Blair and Farron (sp?), or in Prescott, AZ like the Peters.
I have not so great memories of our first WOW leader in Jackson, Mississippi in 1975-1976, or our third in Prescott in 1981-1982. Both were WC, I believe, and reading other folks experiences, that fact makes some sense.
Linda, our WOW leader in Miss. sytematically abused me, emotionally, sexually, and spiritually. I was 4 or 5 at the time. Fortunately for me this did not take place for longer than a few months, as she left before the year was over. I am not sure of all details of why she left. I know she obviously had a lot of problems. In discussing these issues with my mother, as an adult, I came to realize that Linda was verbally and physically abusive to her during this time.
I have done a lot of work on my own, and in therapy, dealing with the abuse. The effects of this type of abuse, adult female on a male child, can be very different from the abuse perpetrated upon children by adult males. It wasn't until I was in my late twenties, that the mental health care establishment recognized this. As a teen, I had a therapist tell me that this abuse was irrelevant to my depression and suicidal tendencies. Heh. If there are other childhood sexual abuse survivors, particular men who were abused as boys, I will be happy to refer them to some great resources. If this happened to you, I beg you to not shrug it off, in a misguided effort to be macho, to be a man. Our society still, though this is changing, views this kind of abuse with a wink and a nod, like you were lucky to sexually initiated by a full grown woman while you were still a boy. That's sick and wrong, turn the genders around, and think of it if you must. Anytime an adult uses a child sexually, it's wrong. And it teaches the kid some really screwed up things about power dynamics, affection, love, and sex.
Anyway, what I haven't worked on directly is the spiritually abuse. I haven't denied it either. I'm just getting through this crap the best I can. It's funny I remember all these hippies coming into fellowship during the 70's, who'd looked for the Truth all over. Meditation, Astrology, Reincarnation, drugs, what-have-you. I guess I kinda turned into one of those. I've dabbled in all sorts of subcultures, and unorthodox belief systems. I did my fair share of LSD...(and your share, and his share, and her share....) I've tried as best I can to seperate the wheat from the chaff. I am very wary of dogma, now. I don't want any second-hand god. I have my relationship with the divine, you have yours.
I used to tell the boys down at the Mason's Lodge, my faith is Christian, but my practice is Zen.
So anyway... Anybody else, twi kid veterans in particular, interested in using this thread, or perhaps new one, for looking at dealing with our brainwashing and indoctrination from an early age, if not birth?
thanks to all of you for having this space for healing. I look forward to the process.
as if sexual, verbal, emotional, physical abuse aren't enough
spiritual abuse sure is something.... you put this core trust in someone (like a mog) to help you with the above.... that betrayal on top of everything else is..... well i don't know.....
welcome, punkelf. God bless you for sharing your story. it's very true there are predators of both sexes, and victims can be either sex. I'm raising my kids to be aware of the evil that people can do, because I don't ever want them to be faced with a situation and be confused about why it's happening, or what is happening... and I do everything I can to protect them.
I'm so happy your mom had enough sense to treat you with love and respect. TWI was not the place to go to learn parenting skills.
I'd love if you started a new thread about being raised from an early age in TWI. I may not have a lot to contribute to it, because I didn't get involved until I was 18. But it would be healing, like you said. And it might show people who are still in TWI, or involved in offshoots, that are lurking, that being raised in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, is NOT what is going on.
Ya know...<BR><BR>I've been thinking about this all yesterday and even dreamed about it last night.<BR><BR>If anyone doubts what has been said here, so what? It's not my job to convince anybody. It does not change what happened one whit. It does not change what my daughter and the other children went through and must still deal with even now as adults.<BR><BR>If it is too hard for someone to think about the details of who might have known and not acted, too bad. I honestly don't care if that's the worst of what came out of their twi experience. Sometimes I wish that I could take all of the pain these kids live with, bottle it and then spike the punch with it at a "let's talk about the good in twi and the wonderful vpw/bot" party.<BR><BR>Anybody want to know more and figure things out? Do the legwork and find the articles and call the people involved. Some of them are still in twi. Others have their contact information out on the 'net. If anybody really wants to know, there's enough information on this thread alone for someone to get the newspaper articles and know.<BR><BR>But I don't think some want to know the truth of the matter at all.<BR><BR>I think some just want to sit safely behind a computer screen and snipe and belittle and degrade and dehumanize and discredit.<BR><BR>Because then life is once again just like it was in twi...or at least close enough to get one through another day.<BR><BR>And if people want to b*tch me out for being so callous, tough. I'm tired of being nice about this subject. It's not a nice subject.<BR><BR>twi as an organization harbored and coddled mean, demented and twisted low-lifes because that was the nature of it's founder. Period.<BR><BR>That's why twi bore the rotten fruit that twi bore.<BR><BR>If somebody can't handle this and doesn't like that this is an irrefutable fact, too bad, so sad. .... happens. Grow up. Deal with it. Be glad that a fallen idol is the worst of your scars from twi.<BR><BR>But don't dump the .... on me, my daughter and other parents and children anymore.<BR><BR><font color="purple">אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ</font>
Moved to the top so I can find it again and read the information
Some times when I read this stuff I hope and Pray God forgives me for the people I brought to TWI.
Moved to the top so I can find it again and read the information
Some times when I read this stuff I hope and Pray God forgives me for the people I brought to TWI.
I think most of us share that sentiment with you, Leafy.
Thirty three pages recalling child abuse in TWI. First hand testimony of abuse. First hand testimony of cover ups at the highest levels.. Documentation of felony convictions and incarceration.
And yet there are people who continue to beyotch and whine about needing more "proof", hoping the new arrivals will be driven off before they find this stuff. Kinda makes ya sick, don't it?
I think most of us share that sentiment with you, Leafy.
Thirty three pages recalling child abuse in TWI. First hand testimony of abuse. First hand testimony of cover ups at the highest levels.. Documentation of felony convictions and incarceration.
And yet there are people who continue to beyotch and whine about needing more "proof", hoping the new arrivals will be driven off before they find this stuff. Kinda makes ya sick, don't it?
Yes it does.
I know it is a lot of posts I am up to page 8 right now.
What disgusts me the most is people calling the victims Liars.
The real liars ore the ones saying that it didn't happen.
I am so glad I left in 83. before my darling babies were born.
We were good to the kids in our twig (My husband and I)
We felt it wasn't right to make them sit through long teachings, or make them sit still.
I held ::sunday school:: for them. We sang songs and played games and learned how to pray together and colored bible pictures I found for them and generally had a fun time.
I am heartbroken for these Children who were abused, for their parents who were racked with the guilt of it all.
I am angry at the BOD and MOG... You can be sure they knew what was going on when they sent that as***le to Alaska to continue on his abuse.
the bastards(mod it out if you have to but they deserve the designation and I am putting it in)
In the beginning, there were few of us who had children. Oftentimes I was told by those who DIDN'T have children how I was supposed to raise my kids. I would tell them to wait and have children of their own. I can't remember exactly when the wooden spoon became the rod of correction of choice in TWI, but TWI wasn't the only religious organization that advocated its use. I know that because of friends that were involved with other organizations were also using the spoon. While I'm not against the use of the spoon, I do think there was a tendency to smack instead of teach.
What I saw were frantic mothers trying to make babies and toddlers sit for long periods of time and that somehow the mark of a "good" mother was the level of obedience the children showed during these long teachings. What I saw were kids who were using a pacifier or bottle well into their 3rd year; kids who were obviously miserable. I was not considered a good mother according to TWI standards because I didn't beat/frighten my kids into submission.
After the 3rd kid was born, we quit bringing our kids on a regular basis. One of us would stay home. While we would hear about how we weren't raising our kids "in the word," we pretty much stuck to our guns because we believed it was unrealistic to expect kids to sit for over an hour during a teaching that stretched long past their bedtime.
The twigs where we went tried and tried to establish kids programs, but most underestimated the amount of time, effort, and energy it took to run a successful program and doing so kept people away from the teachings, so the programs usually fell by the wayside.
My stance was that TWI was not particularly family-friendly and had very unrealistic expectations regarding children. While I didn't personally see any child abused, I felt that many were making poor choices regarding child discipline, including allowing people who had unreasonable expectations to dictate how they needed to raise their children. On the other hand I can't imagine most of the parents I came into contact with allowing others to abuse and hurt their children - not including corp. It seemed the corp parents had a higher threshold when it came to allowing others to discipline their children.
In the beginning, there were few of us who had children. Oftentimes I was told by those who DIDN'T have children how I was supposed to raise my kids. I would tell them to wait and have children of their own. I can't remember exactly when the wooden spoon became the rod of correction of choice in TWI, but TWI wasn't the only religious organization that advocated its use. I know that because of friends that were involved with other organizations were also using the spoon. While I'm not against the use of the spoon, I do think there was a tendency to smack instead of teach.
What I saw were frantic mothers trying to make babies and toddlers sit for long periods of time and that somehow the mark of a "good" mother was the level of obedience the children showed during these long teachings. What I saw were kids who were using a pacifier or bottle well into their 3rd year; kids who were obviously miserable. I was not considered a good mother according to TWI standards because I didn't beat/frighten my kids into submission.
After the 3rd kid was born, we quit bringing our kids on a regular basis. One of us would stay home. While we would hear about how we weren't raising our kids "in the word," we pretty much stuck to our guns because we believed it was unrealistic to expect kids to sit for over an hour during a teaching that stretched long past their bedtime.
The twigs where we went tried and tried to establish kids programs, but most underestimated the amount of time, effort, and energy it took to run a successful program and doing so kept people away from the teachings, so the programs usually fell by the wayside.
My stance was that TWI was not particularly family-friendly and had very unrealistic expectations regarding children. While I didn't personally see any child abused, I felt that many were making poor choices regarding child discipline, including allowing people who had unreasonable expectations to dictate how they needed to raise their children. On the other hand I can't imagine most of the parents I came into contact with allowing others to abuse and hurt their children - not including corp. It seemed the corp parents had a higher threshold when it came to allowing others to discipline their children.
The spoon as a discipline tool was taught in a child rearing book that was popular in the late 70's.
I know it was being used as early as 1979 probably before that. IT was embraced by quite a few religious groups at the time not to mention many others.
It fell out of use by maybe 1986 as another child rearing method had come into vogue which involved consequences rather than beating or striking.
As usual TWI took some one elses teaching and made it their own morphing it into something very different.
Now I could remember this wrong but I believe there were strict rules of guidance in the book on when to use the spoon and when to not use it and when it was appropriate age wise. I never saw TWI offer the book for sale to their people so I am not sure if believers ever knew of it's existence. I knew from before joining TWI from a friends sister in law who was using it for disciplining her child. who was about 3. I am willing to bet some folks knew of it and some didn't .
Abuse in early childhood permanently alters how the brain reacts to stress, a Canadian study suggests.
Analysis of brain tissue from adults who had committed suicide found key genetic changes in those who had suffered abuse as a child.
It affects the production of a receptor known to be involved in stress responses, the researchers said.
The Nature Neuroscience study underpins the impact of stress on early brain development, experts said.
Previous research has shown that abuse in childhood is associated with an increased reaction to stressful circumstances.
“ Whilst these results obviously need to be replicated, they provide a mechanism by which experiences early in life can have an effect on behaviour later in adulthood ”
Dr Jonathan Mill
But exactly how environmental factors interact with genes and contribute to depression or other mental disorders in adulthood is not well understood.
A research team led by McGill University, in Montreal, examined the gene for the glucocorticoid receptor - which helps control the response to stress - in a specific brain region of 12 suicide victims with a history of child abuse and 12 suicide victims who did not suffer abuse when younger.
They found chemical changes which reduced the activity of the gene in those who suffered child abuse.
And they showed this reduced activity leads to fewer glucocorticoid receptors.
Those affected would have had an abnormally heightened response to stress, the researchers said.
Long-term
It suggests that experience in childhood when the brain is developing, can have a long-term impact on how someone responds to stressful situations.
But study leader Professor Michael Meaney said they believe these biochemical effects could also occur later in life.
"If you're a public health individual or a child psychologist you could say this shows you nothing you didn't already know.
"But until you show the biological process, many people in government and policy-makers are reluctant to believe it's real.
"Beyond that, you could ask whether a drug could reverse these effects and that's a possibility."
Dr Jonathan Mill, from the Institute of Psychiatry at Kings College London said the research added to growing evidence that environmental factors can alter the expression of genes - a process known as epigenetics.
"Whilst these results obviously need to be replicated, they provide a mechanism by which experiences early in life can have an effect on behaviour later in adulthood.
"The exciting thing about epigenetic alterations is that they are potentially reversible, and thus perhaps a future target for therapeutic intervention."
Anytime! I hope it answers some of your questions.. and feel free to PM me any time if stuff is too personal to post.. As a survivor of Child Abuse myself, I do understand and like I said
there are others like you who were survivors of childhood in TWI.
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Catcup
I, too am new to this particular thread. I spent several hours this morning looking through it. While I was never a part of any "initiation" ceremony (tongue in cheek or otherwise) that Evan describ
Watered Garden
I have some insight from a parenting seminar I took that I will add to this thread later. Right now my ancient dog who I think has sundowner syndrome is barking and might wake up my sleeping grandson. It's from a seminar at church by a minister and his wife who had training by Paul Hegstrom. It is so germane to this topic.
Later
WG
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punkelf
Hi all,
I have just joined this forum. I haven't had any involvement or contact with twi in over twenty years, but from birth to the age of about 12, twi was a constant presence in my life.
I was raised by a single mom, and whatever adults were around at the time. I was a mini-wow three times, and we lived in a lot of roommate situations with other wayfers aside from that.
My mom used the wooden spoon, but never to excess. I was always informed when I was misbehaving, told what the consequences would be if it happened again, and given sincere loving hugs after being spanked. I don't remember anyone being allowed to discipline me who mom did not explicitly trust, and I don't remember any instances (besides the few I will illustrate later) of someone taking it upon themselves to discipline me harshly or with out cause.
I have a lot of fond memories of people I grew up around, and lived with. Great folks in Spokane like Tom Lipenski and his family, Skip and Ellen, and Blair and Farron (sp?), or in Prescott, AZ like the Peters.
I have not so great memories of our first WOW leader in Jackson, Mississippi in 1975-1976, or our third in Prescott in 1981-1982. Both were WC, I believe, and reading other folks experiences, that fact makes some sense.
Linda, our WOW leader in Miss. sytematically abused me, emotionally, sexually, and spiritually. I was 4 or 5 at the time. Fortunately for me this did not take place for longer than a few months, as she left before the year was over. I am not sure of all details of why she left. I know she obviously had a lot of problems. In discussing these issues with my mother, as an adult, I came to realize that Linda was verbally and physically abusive to her during this time.
I have done a lot of work on my own, and in therapy, dealing with the abuse. The effects of this type of abuse, adult female on a male child, can be very different from the abuse perpetrated upon children by adult males. It wasn't until I was in my late twenties, that the mental health care establishment recognized this. As a teen, I had a therapist tell me that this abuse was irrelevant to my depression and suicidal tendencies. Heh. If there are other childhood sexual abuse survivors, particular men who were abused as boys, I will be happy to refer them to some great resources. If this happened to you, I beg you to not shrug it off, in a misguided effort to be macho, to be a man. Our society still, though this is changing, views this kind of abuse with a wink and a nod, like you were lucky to sexually initiated by a full grown woman while you were still a boy. That's sick and wrong, turn the genders around, and think of it if you must. Anytime an adult uses a child sexually, it's wrong. And it teaches the kid some really screwed up things about power dynamics, affection, love, and sex.
Anyway, what I haven't worked on directly is the spiritually abuse. I haven't denied it either. I'm just getting through this crap the best I can. It's funny I remember all these hippies coming into fellowship during the 70's, who'd looked for the Truth all over. Meditation, Astrology, Reincarnation, drugs, what-have-you. I guess I kinda turned into one of those. I've dabbled in all sorts of subcultures, and unorthodox belief systems. I did my fair share of LSD...(and your share, and his share, and her share....) I've tried as best I can to seperate the wheat from the chaff. I am very wary of dogma, now. I don't want any second-hand god. I have my relationship with the divine, you have yours.
I used to tell the boys down at the Mason's Lodge, my faith is Christian, but my practice is Zen.
So anyway... Anybody else, twi kid veterans in particular, interested in using this thread, or perhaps new one, for looking at dealing with our brainwashing and indoctrination from an early age, if not birth?
thanks to all of you for having this space for healing. I look forward to the process.
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excathedra
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excathedra
as if sexual, verbal, emotional, physical abuse aren't enough
spiritual abuse sure is something.... you put this core trust in someone (like a mog) to help you with the above.... that betrayal on top of everything else is..... well i don't know.....
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potato
welcome, punkelf. God bless you for sharing your story. it's very true there are predators of both sexes, and victims can be either sex. I'm raising my kids to be aware of the evil that people can do, because I don't ever want them to be faced with a situation and be confused about why it's happening, or what is happening... and I do everything I can to protect them.
predators hide everywhere.
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VeganXTC
Welcome, punkelf.
I'm so happy your mom had enough sense to treat you with love and respect. TWI was not the place to go to learn parenting skills.
I'd love if you started a new thread about being raised from an early age in TWI. I may not have a lot to contribute to it, because I didn't get involved until I was 18. But it would be healing, like you said. And it might show people who are still in TWI, or involved in offshoots, that are lurking, that being raised in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, is NOT what is going on.
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doojable
Bump
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leafytwiglet
Moved to the top so I can find it again and read the information
Some times when I read this stuff I hope and Pray God forgives me for the people I brought to TWI.
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waysider
I think most of us share that sentiment with you, Leafy.
Thirty three pages recalling child abuse in TWI. First hand testimony of abuse. First hand testimony of cover ups at the highest levels.. Documentation of felony convictions and incarceration.
And yet there are people who continue to beyotch and whine about needing more "proof", hoping the new arrivals will be driven off before they find this stuff. Kinda makes ya sick, don't it?
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leafytwiglet
Yes it does.
I know it is a lot of posts I am up to page 8 right now.
What disgusts me the most is people calling the victims Liars.
The real liars ore the ones saying that it didn't happen.
I am so glad I left in 83. before my darling babies were born.
We were good to the kids in our twig (My husband and I)
We felt it wasn't right to make them sit through long teachings, or make them sit still.
I held ::sunday school:: for them. We sang songs and played games and learned how to pray together and colored bible pictures I found for them and generally had a fun time.
I am heartbroken for these Children who were abused, for their parents who were racked with the guilt of it all.
I am angry at the BOD and MOG... You can be sure they knew what was going on when they sent that as***le to Alaska to continue on his abuse.
the bastards(mod it out if you have to but they deserve the designation and I am putting it in)
Okay back to reading
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Tzaia
In the beginning, there were few of us who had children. Oftentimes I was told by those who DIDN'T have children how I was supposed to raise my kids. I would tell them to wait and have children of their own. I can't remember exactly when the wooden spoon became the rod of correction of choice in TWI, but TWI wasn't the only religious organization that advocated its use. I know that because of friends that were involved with other organizations were also using the spoon. While I'm not against the use of the spoon, I do think there was a tendency to smack instead of teach.
What I saw were frantic mothers trying to make babies and toddlers sit for long periods of time and that somehow the mark of a "good" mother was the level of obedience the children showed during these long teachings. What I saw were kids who were using a pacifier or bottle well into their 3rd year; kids who were obviously miserable. I was not considered a good mother according to TWI standards because I didn't beat/frighten my kids into submission.
After the 3rd kid was born, we quit bringing our kids on a regular basis. One of us would stay home. While we would hear about how we weren't raising our kids "in the word," we pretty much stuck to our guns because we believed it was unrealistic to expect kids to sit for over an hour during a teaching that stretched long past their bedtime.
The twigs where we went tried and tried to establish kids programs, but most underestimated the amount of time, effort, and energy it took to run a successful program and doing so kept people away from the teachings, so the programs usually fell by the wayside.
My stance was that TWI was not particularly family-friendly and had very unrealistic expectations regarding children. While I didn't personally see any child abused, I felt that many were making poor choices regarding child discipline, including allowing people who had unreasonable expectations to dictate how they needed to raise their children. On the other hand I can't imagine most of the parents I came into contact with allowing others to abuse and hurt their children - not including corp. It seemed the corp parents had a higher threshold when it came to allowing others to discipline their children.
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leafytwiglet
The spoon as a discipline tool was taught in a child rearing book that was popular in the late 70's.
I know it was being used as early as 1979 probably before that. IT was embraced by quite a few religious groups at the time not to mention many others.
It fell out of use by maybe 1986 as another child rearing method had come into vogue which involved consequences rather than beating or striking.
As usual TWI took some one elses teaching and made it their own morphing it into something very different.
Now I could remember this wrong but I believe there were strict rules of guidance in the book on when to use the spoon and when to not use it and when it was appropriate age wise. I never saw TWI offer the book for sale to their people so I am not sure if believers ever knew of it's existence. I knew from before joining TWI from a friends sister in law who was using it for disciplining her child. who was about 3. I am willing to bet some folks knew of it and some didn't .
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leafytwiglet
almost to the end of page ten and find the hunt close??? thread per word wolf.
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WordWolf
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7901337.stm
Child abuse 'impacts stress gene'
Abuse in early childhood permanently alters how the brain reacts to stress, a Canadian study suggests.
Analysis of brain tissue from adults who had committed suicide found key genetic changes in those who had suffered abuse as a child.
It affects the production of a receptor known to be involved in stress responses, the researchers said.
The Nature Neuroscience study underpins the impact of stress on early brain development, experts said.
Previous research has shown that abuse in childhood is associated with an increased reaction to stressful circumstances.
“ Whilst these results obviously need to be replicated, they provide a mechanism by which experiences early in life can have an effect on behaviour later in adulthood ”
Dr Jonathan Mill
But exactly how environmental factors interact with genes and contribute to depression or other mental disorders in adulthood is not well understood.
A research team led by McGill University, in Montreal, examined the gene for the glucocorticoid receptor - which helps control the response to stress - in a specific brain region of 12 suicide victims with a history of child abuse and 12 suicide victims who did not suffer abuse when younger.
They found chemical changes which reduced the activity of the gene in those who suffered child abuse.
And they showed this reduced activity leads to fewer glucocorticoid receptors.
Those affected would have had an abnormally heightened response to stress, the researchers said.
Long-term
It suggests that experience in childhood when the brain is developing, can have a long-term impact on how someone responds to stressful situations.
But study leader Professor Michael Meaney said they believe these biochemical effects could also occur later in life.
"If you're a public health individual or a child psychologist you could say this shows you nothing you didn't already know.
"But until you show the biological process, many people in government and policy-makers are reluctant to believe it's real.
"Beyond that, you could ask whether a drug could reverse these effects and that's a possibility."
Dr Jonathan Mill, from the Institute of Psychiatry at Kings College London said the research added to growing evidence that environmental factors can alter the expression of genes - a process known as epigenetics.
"Whilst these results obviously need to be replicated, they provide a mechanism by which experiences early in life can have an effect on behaviour later in adulthood.
"The exciting thing about epigenetic alterations is that they are potentially reversible, and thus perhaps a future target for therapeutic intervention."
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/health/7901337.stm
Published: 2009/02/23 01:16:12 GMT
© BBC MMIX
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leafytwiglet
Bumping this up for anew person.
Here you go. I hope this answers some of your questions..
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calisprncess
Leafy, thank you :-)
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leafytwiglet
Anytime! I hope it answers some of your questions.. and feel free to PM me any time if stuff is too personal to post.. As a survivor of Child Abuse myself, I do understand and like I said
there are others like you who were survivors of childhood in TWI.
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