Once again, I guess it depends on when you were there.
I was at Rome City in 78-79 and 80-81. I never owned or carried around a wooden spoon. Nor did I ever spank anyone else's child. Tell them to stop doing something, yes, but spank them, no.
I think being a kid at Rome City, at least when we were there, had both positives and negatives. It sounds like things got worse there over the years, too, as with all aspects of twi.
Greg B. came on staff our last year in rez, and I didn't like the way he treated the teens and said so. He was a bully and, IMO, unqualified to work with children. I complained about him, as did others, but he stayed in his position. That should have told me something!
I was there in 1982 maybe early 83. I saw the spoons. I also saw the spoon use on the field with the 4th corps. What I saw on the field did not seem abusive at all, a tap on the leg or whatever, rather than a spanking
Greg B, not qualified to work with kids. His wife was , so why didn't she get the job? hmmmmm
He was a bully, closed fist punching teens and having absolute violent meltdowns. He was definetly part of the problem but then they armed all the adults and gave them the green light to hit us. It was more than just one man who abused us. It became part of the culture.
My heart goes out to you too. What a horrible thing. You guys should have been treated as the most precious. But you are to God. Those guys who did that will pay one day.
It's very convenient of you to focus on the few here who believe any kind of hitting of a child is abuse. I'm not one of them. I think a good solid whack on the fanny is definately what a child MIGHT need at certain times to let them know what they are doing WILL NOT be tolerated.
Do you know how many times my child actually needed such a good solid whack as he was growing up? Less than five. And trust me, he got them when he needed them!
Would you like to know exactly what I was told to do by my TC/BC when my child was a toddler?
1) He must not fall asleep in fellowship, even though it runs past his bedtime
2) He must not snuggle too close to mommy as this is just his way of not being involved with fellowship
3) He must sit still and quiet through an entire SNS tape, with no toys or books, even though there is absolutely nothing in the room to keep his attention and half the adults are inattentive
4) If he does not abide by these rules, I must take him in the other room and whack him until he does
Only a parent would understand how completely, utterly ridiculous and counter-productive these rules are, and only a twi-head would know what it feels like to teeter-totter between trying to avoid the rules, protect your child, please your leadership, and not get yourself booted from the ministry.
Oldies, you are a complete fool. People stayed because they spent years being indoctrinated into believing it was God's Word, into believing their leadership was "tapped in" to a special spiritualness, into believing any time they didn't understand it was their own fault for not being Godly enough. We were TAUGHT to hide from what we saw, what we thought, what we were afraid was wrong-doings by anyone in The Way International... did the leadership come right out and say, "Hey, we want you to cover up for anything bad we do."? Obviously not.
They didn't need to... we SAW what happened to those who didn't do exactly as we were told by our local leadership. I sat in countless corps night teachings listening to Craig publically tear people apart for the slightest infractions. I went through years of corps/college program/fellowship coordinator/advanced class/WIPB training that told us in no uncertain terms that the word of a man of God was LAW. I was given demonstrations on exactly how hard and how often to smack my kid's bare leg with a wooden spoon for not being attentive enough. I spent time at Rome City where I was told I didn't strike a child hard enough during children's fellowship (by the fella who coordinated it for years).
Don't you DARE sit on your high horse and tell me what I did or did not live through.
Enjoy the rose-colored tint from those dark glasses you choose to wear, but stop telling the rest of us who have taken them off that you are the one seeing things clearly.
once and only once was i repremanded by the bc who was a friend of mine even b4 twi when my then 3 year old son put up a fuss at the bc's looong and booooring teachings. He told me to control my son and i told him to go fu..k himself and when he had children then maybe i would listen to his advice
the issue never came up again and we are still frindly today
I kept my kids as far away from the HF as I could. Hubby and I tried to have only one of us attend fellowship, but once a week or so we'd drag the whole family. I was glad when one of them had a cold--of course, then it would be a black mark against our beliving, but still...
Small children were seen as some type of devilish blight or something. They interfeared with the teaching of THE WORD if they fussed etc--but it was all repititious, any way. Same stuff taught over and over in 10 minute increments.
I know we were told to spank them for crying AFTER you spanked them for some disobedience--they could learn to take it silently...we didn't. They were supposed to be ready to listen to our words.
I'll bet there are some massively screwed up kids coming out of TWI.
And the one time swat for getting attention? If the child was crying, then you didn't have their attention. Swat again, a whole series of one time get their attention swats. Our HFC bragged about a swat session that lasted 20 min.
As for standing up to leadership...not in my area in the ninties. You just secretly rebelled and avoided the one true Household. Standing up for yourself or your kid gained you no respect, just put you on the 'watch' list or worse.
The kids with the rifles were about 6-8th grade, which would make them 13-14 years old. They were J**n N***Z's sons, probably junior high or so at most. No the itty-bitties were not taught firearm management.
My objection was that the two lads were strolling through a playground with the little ones in it and accidents do happen even to the sons of the elite. I felt they should have chosen another route. However, being the privileged sons of the privileged, they put me in my place. I dared not complain to their daddy.
I knew a woman once who bragged that she swatted her son for 3 hours because she took him to someone's house and he refused to say "Good morning, Mrs. _____." when commanded to do so. I kept wondering what the hostess thought of all this. Don't think I could handle someone in my foyer beating their kid for three hours. or three minutes. or.....
The child was about 2-3. By the time I met them her kids were just like her, legalistic little smart butts who REPROVED me for the way I folded my bath towels and the way I put fitted sheets on my bed. Only one way to do it you know, and that was mommy's way. I just stared open mouthed at them. Of course it was proper and logicalk for them to do so, becuase they were HER kids and of COURSE they were right.
The older two are out of high school now. I wonder whatever became of them? Their parents were WC grads and not much interested in higher education, which is unfortunate, because at least the firstborn was pretty smart, at least until he was properly brainwashed.
It's sad. Some people just should be spayed and never allowed around kids.
I'm so glad I got kicked out of corps training. I'm so glad I got my kids out. this thread turns my stomach.
I was ridden hard by FC's with quiet kids because mine aren't. I'm so happy I'm free of compulsion to turn them into little clones.
my ex wanted my kids to impress everyone so they'd know what a great believer he was to have his family in order. it destroyed our family. there was no love. it was all about appearances and power and bullying the weak.
In many ways it was just as hard on the corps adults. We maybe didn't get the physical abuse but mental abuse can be just as bad. How about this. one time I had two Way Corps yell at me for three hours at in front of my house with my wife and kids watching because I told them I didn't understand everything about LCMs bonehead decision to drop all the "old" VWP Corps in our area. Those b'''''s can rot in hell.
Whereas I absolutely DO feel it important for people to give account of their negative experiences at th the hand of TWI leadership, etc., I also feel it necessary to point out thtat these most unfortunate incidents mentioned in this thread were or are the actions of individuals.
There was never anything about TWI, the organization or corporation which sanctioned child abuse.
I know this to be fact.
I worked there, in the publications dept., and worked with individuals who originated the publications dept.
Please be advised that EVERYTHING published by TWI had to pass through the legal dept,. (ad nauseum in some cases) before it could be published.
UNFORTUNATELY. Many, many, "leadership" misused the power they had in just about every way imaginable. Child abuse being among the most heinous ways.
Personally, I felt, and feel it abusive to children the way that The Way and many other religious organizations simply expect "performance" out of their children and a commitment to ministry that the parents may have but their children have absolutely no grounds or foundation to adopt.
I am a leader in ministry, a WC grad and currently serve in lay leadership. I truly wish to God that my children would have the same and even greater commitment to God that I do.
However, just because I'm committed to serve as I do is absolutely NO grounds for my children to wish to do the same. No moreso than I can expect ANY of them to adopt my career choice.
People in ministry, in general, cram to much down their children's gullets.
Before I'm flamed....
I'm also a stepparent of a child who was abused, two actually.
The FIRST thing I did was to call the local police.
Abuse is a crime.
Child abuse is a most heinous crime.
IF you or anyone you know has been victimized in this way PLEASE contact your local authorities.
Yes. Its an ugly battle in front of you & the "solution" via the system, in and of itself can qualify as further abuse.
BUT. You can't let these (insert the expletive of your choice) get away w/ it.
Also. My opinion is that we can't let the heinous acts of certain unseemly individuals brand any organization.
Even if its one we don't like, even one who is guilty of similar abuses.
howard, when i personally asked veepee to recommend a good book on how to raise children, he told me to read the dog book, "hunt close" he said if you can train a dog, you can train a child (or something very close to that)
i think he the mog of all days and times might be categorized as "twi"
My first daughter was born and we moved into a Way Home right afterwards, then went family WOW the next year. Now I am no defender of TWI but I'll guarentee NO ONE abused my baby girl and I would have smashed anyone who tried in the face. If someone went ape-crap with the rod of correction I think they need to look in a mirror and ask the deep questions.
For the record, if I haven't said this already, my parents never abused us either. Yes, there was the occasional hard smack with the spoon but nothing like what has been described on this thread. The stuff that happned to me happened at the hands of other people. Make no mistake there were some real bastards put in charge of children and young adults.
HCW, one question. Who was the ministry if not the leaders? Supposedly there were no members but there were representatives and those were the so called leaders. They were the teachers and the example and the council. Plus, what Ex said.
It wasn't until the mid ninties when D*nna Martind@le did a teaching at the Rock that explicitly said the "rod" was an attention getter not a tool for abuse. By then though, it was out of hand in many areas and many families. Still after that teaching it continued, perhaps to this day, in some areas.
No, there was no "official policy" on smacking the crap out of your kid or other people's kids, the same as the rest of their non-policies, but somehow it made it into the minds of the collective and to the a$$ of their children. I wonder how.
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Catcup
I, too am new to this particular thread. I spent several hours this morning looking through it. While I was never a part of any "initiation" ceremony (tongue in cheek or otherwise) that Evan describ
Linda Z
Once again, I guess it depends on when you were there.
I was at Rome City in 78-79 and 80-81. I never owned or carried around a wooden spoon. Nor did I ever spank anyone else's child. Tell them to stop doing something, yes, but spank them, no.
I think being a kid at Rome City, at least when we were there, had both positives and negatives. It sounds like things got worse there over the years, too, as with all aspects of twi.
Greg B. came on staff our last year in rez, and I didn't like the way he treated the teens and said so. He was a bully and, IMO, unqualified to work with children. I complained about him, as did others, but he stayed in his position. That should have told me something!
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Dot Matrix
I was there in 1982 maybe early 83. I saw the spoons. I also saw the spoon use on the field with the 4th corps. What I saw on the field did not seem abusive at all, a tap on the leg or whatever, rather than a spanking
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Georgio Jessio
Greg B, not qualified to work with kids. His wife was , so why didn't she get the job? hmmmmm
He was a bully, closed fist punching teens and having absolute violent meltdowns. He was definetly part of the problem but then they armed all the adults and gave them the green light to hit us. It was more than just one man who abused us. It became part of the culture.
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excathedra
i would love to meet greg b. in an alley, i don't care how tall the azzphruck is
it's not a gift damn it, it's a manifestation, and that person who emailed you should know that, where the he ll is my wooden spoon ?(to be polite) barf
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polar bear
My heart goes out to you too. What a horrible thing. You guys should have been treated as the most precious. But you are to God. Those guys who did that will pay one day.
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TheHighWay
Oldies,
It's very convenient of you to focus on the few here who believe any kind of hitting of a child is abuse. I'm not one of them. I think a good solid whack on the fanny is definately what a child MIGHT need at certain times to let them know what they are doing WILL NOT be tolerated.
Do you know how many times my child actually needed such a good solid whack as he was growing up? Less than five. And trust me, he got them when he needed them!
Would you like to know exactly what I was told to do by my TC/BC when my child was a toddler?
1) He must not fall asleep in fellowship, even though it runs past his bedtime
2) He must not snuggle too close to mommy as this is just his way of not being involved with fellowship
3) He must sit still and quiet through an entire SNS tape, with no toys or books, even though there is absolutely nothing in the room to keep his attention and half the adults are inattentive
4) If he does not abide by these rules, I must take him in the other room and whack him until he does
Only a parent would understand how completely, utterly ridiculous and counter-productive these rules are, and only a twi-head would know what it feels like to teeter-totter between trying to avoid the rules, protect your child, please your leadership, and not get yourself booted from the ministry.
Oldies, you are a complete fool. People stayed because they spent years being indoctrinated into believing it was God's Word, into believing their leadership was "tapped in" to a special spiritualness, into believing any time they didn't understand it was their own fault for not being Godly enough. We were TAUGHT to hide from what we saw, what we thought, what we were afraid was wrong-doings by anyone in The Way International... did the leadership come right out and say, "Hey, we want you to cover up for anything bad we do."? Obviously not.
They didn't need to... we SAW what happened to those who didn't do exactly as we were told by our local leadership. I sat in countless corps night teachings listening to Craig publically tear people apart for the slightest infractions. I went through years of corps/college program/fellowship coordinator/advanced class/WIPB training that told us in no uncertain terms that the word of a man of God was LAW. I was given demonstrations on exactly how hard and how often to smack my kid's bare leg with a wooden spoon for not being attentive enough. I spent time at Rome City where I was told I didn't strike a child hard enough during children's fellowship (by the fella who coordinated it for years).
Don't you DARE sit on your high horse and tell me what I did or did not live through.
Enjoy the rose-colored tint from those dark glasses you choose to wear, but stop telling the rest of us who have taken them off that you are the one seeing things clearly.
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excathedra
i agree dear thehighway
how do we reconcile these poor kids (now adults) and how their parents let them grow up so miserably
i don't know
you want to call the parents cultheads who loved god and did the best for the kids ?????
i'm confused and unsure
i do know when i was abused, i don't think anyone was doing it to make me my best for god
:(
the above thoughts are not in response to highway or anyone. must my own thougths / questions
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coolchef
once and only once was i repremanded by the bc who was a friend of mine even b4 twi when my then 3 year old son put up a fuss at the bc's looong and booooring teachings. He told me to control my son and i told him to go fu..k himself and when he had children then maybe i would listen to his advice
the issue never came up again and we are still frindly today
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excathedra
these dear children brought up in the way deserve their voice without question in my humble opinion
again, just me talking, not directed at anyone
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Bramble
I kept my kids as far away from the HF as I could. Hubby and I tried to have only one of us attend fellowship, but once a week or so we'd drag the whole family. I was glad when one of them had a cold--of course, then it would be a black mark against our beliving, but still...
Small children were seen as some type of devilish blight or something. They interfeared with the teaching of THE WORD if they fussed etc--but it was all repititious, any way. Same stuff taught over and over in 10 minute increments.
I know we were told to spank them for crying AFTER you spanked them for some disobedience--they could learn to take it silently...we didn't. They were supposed to be ready to listen to our words.
I'll bet there are some massively screwed up kids coming out of TWI.
And the one time swat for getting attention? If the child was crying, then you didn't have their attention. Swat again, a whole series of one time get their attention swats. Our HFC bragged about a swat session that lasted 20 min.
As for standing up to leadership...not in my area in the ninties. You just secretly rebelled and avoided the one true Household. Standing up for yourself or your kid gained you no respect, just put you on the 'watch' list or worse.
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excathedra
disgusting
let me swat some of those major sickopussyleaders with a big flyswatter
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Watered Garden
The kids with the rifles were about 6-8th grade, which would make them 13-14 years old. They were J**n N***Z's sons, probably junior high or so at most. No the itty-bitties were not taught firearm management.
My objection was that the two lads were strolling through a playground with the little ones in it and accidents do happen even to the sons of the elite. I felt they should have chosen another route. However, being the privileged sons of the privileged, they put me in my place. I dared not complain to their daddy.
WG
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Abigail
WG, would you please check your private topics. :D
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Dot Matrix
kids of the corps
I am sorry for what happened to you. Rome City was the worst campus I went to, IMO.
It was cold, mean and like being in the military.
I am very sorry
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Watered Garden
I knew a woman once who bragged that she swatted her son for 3 hours because she took him to someone's house and he refused to say "Good morning, Mrs. _____." when commanded to do so. I kept wondering what the hostess thought of all this. Don't think I could handle someone in my foyer beating their kid for three hours. or three minutes. or.....
The child was about 2-3. By the time I met them her kids were just like her, legalistic little smart butts who REPROVED me for the way I folded my bath towels and the way I put fitted sheets on my bed. Only one way to do it you know, and that was mommy's way. I just stared open mouthed at them. Of course it was proper and logicalk for them to do so, becuase they were HER kids and of COURSE they were right.
The older two are out of high school now. I wonder whatever became of them? Their parents were WC grads and not much interested in higher education, which is unfortunate, because at least the firstborn was pretty smart, at least until he was properly brainwashed.
It's sad. Some people just should be spayed and never allowed around kids.
WG
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potato
I'm so glad I got kicked out of corps training. I'm so glad I got my kids out. this thread turns my stomach.
I was ridden hard by FC's with quiet kids because mine aren't. I'm so happy I'm free of compulsion to turn them into little clones.
my ex wanted my kids to impress everyone so they'd know what a great believer he was to have his family in order. it destroyed our family. there was no love. it was all about appearances and power and bullying the weak.
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likeaneagle
OMG, I am so glad I didnt go into FC 97- this sickens me..
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polar bear
In many ways it was just as hard on the corps adults. We maybe didn't get the physical abuse but mental abuse can be just as bad. How about this. one time I had two Way Corps yell at me for three hours at in front of my house with my wife and kids watching because I told them I didn't understand everything about LCMs bonehead decision to drop all the "old" VWP Corps in our area. Those b'''''s can rot in hell.
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HCW
Whereas I absolutely DO feel it important for people to give account of their negative experiences at th the hand of TWI leadership, etc., I also feel it necessary to point out thtat these most unfortunate incidents mentioned in this thread were or are the actions of individuals.
There was never anything about TWI, the organization or corporation which sanctioned child abuse.
I know this to be fact.
I worked there, in the publications dept., and worked with individuals who originated the publications dept.
Please be advised that EVERYTHING published by TWI had to pass through the legal dept,. (ad nauseum in some cases) before it could be published.
UNFORTUNATELY. Many, many, "leadership" misused the power they had in just about every way imaginable. Child abuse being among the most heinous ways.
Personally, I felt, and feel it abusive to children the way that The Way and many other religious organizations simply expect "performance" out of their children and a commitment to ministry that the parents may have but their children have absolutely no grounds or foundation to adopt.
I am a leader in ministry, a WC grad and currently serve in lay leadership. I truly wish to God that my children would have the same and even greater commitment to God that I do.
However, just because I'm committed to serve as I do is absolutely NO grounds for my children to wish to do the same. No moreso than I can expect ANY of them to adopt my career choice.
People in ministry, in general, cram to much down their children's gullets.
Before I'm flamed....
I'm also a stepparent of a child who was abused, two actually.
The FIRST thing I did was to call the local police.
Abuse is a crime.
Child abuse is a most heinous crime.
IF you or anyone you know has been victimized in this way PLEASE contact your local authorities.
Yes. Its an ugly battle in front of you & the "solution" via the system, in and of itself can qualify as further abuse.
BUT. You can't let these (insert the expletive of your choice) get away w/ it.
Also. My opinion is that we can't let the heinous acts of certain unseemly individuals brand any organization.
Even if its one we don't like, even one who is guilty of similar abuses.
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MiniCorpsConscript
It must look nice ON PAPER. I'm sure tw didn't condone this ON PAPER. But real people in the real world don't live their lives ON PAPER.
You don't need to remind anybody of twi's stance ON PAPER, we know it's a pack of lies.
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excathedra
howard, when i personally asked veepee to recommend a good book on how to raise children, he told me to read the dog book, "hunt close" he said if you can train a dog, you can train a child (or something very close to that)
i think he the mog of all days and times might be categorized as "twi"
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dennischilson
My first daughter was born and we moved into a Way Home right afterwards, then went family WOW the next year. Now I am no defender of TWI but I'll guarentee NO ONE abused my baby girl and I would have smashed anyone who tried in the face. If someone went ape-crap with the rod of correction I think they need to look in a mirror and ask the deep questions.
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waysider
I raise my glass to toast and shout a hearty "here,here!".
Welcome,DC.
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lindyhopper
For the record, if I haven't said this already, my parents never abused us either. Yes, there was the occasional hard smack with the spoon but nothing like what has been described on this thread. The stuff that happned to me happened at the hands of other people. Make no mistake there were some real bastards put in charge of children and young adults.
HCW, one question. Who was the ministry if not the leaders? Supposedly there were no members but there were representatives and those were the so called leaders. They were the teachers and the example and the council. Plus, what Ex said.
It wasn't until the mid ninties when D*nna Martind@le did a teaching at the Rock that explicitly said the "rod" was an attention getter not a tool for abuse. By then though, it was out of hand in many areas and many families. Still after that teaching it continued, perhaps to this day, in some areas.
No, there was no "official policy" on smacking the crap out of your kid or other people's kids, the same as the rest of their non-policies, but somehow it made it into the minds of the collective and to the a$$ of their children. I wonder how.
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