quote:I don`t know how folks can defend this organization...apparently....hq not only knew this stuff went on...it FACILITATED the perpetrators activities and PROTECTED them from prosecution...
Here's my opinion on this sad topic: there's no question that child abuse happened, but before I accuse someone of facilitating a crime, I'd want to get proof that they (by they, are we talking about the BOT?) knew what was happening and facilitated it. You can't blame the BOT for everything evil that went on. Some folks would like to. But I just remember what type of a man Don Wierwille was and can't believe he would have tolerated any instances of child abuse. "Prove all things"...
Ummmmmm....OM....did you even read what I've written here?
Was it (in 1984-1986) up to the bot to appoint limb leaders and oversee what they were doing? How about knowing what was going on with one another? There's only 3 of them for gawd's sake.
If so, the bot was well aware of everything I knew was going on...via letters to and from vpw, d and lc m. And the bot turned a deaf ear.
If no, then I don't know what to say...except that twi is a far more closely run ship than that.
It sounds as if you have or had documentation that people outside of your local area were notified. Was all corroborating evidence stolen? Did you file a police report? If I'm prying too much, tell me to shut up.
I ask because it upsets me to see people get away with these things. I came to GSC to gather information from an outside source. It's done that but it makes me want to see those genuinely guilty of such things prosecuted fully and given a cellmate named "bubba" who will take good care of them. (I'm told even inmates hate child-molesters)
You've probably already thought of these things but I had to ask.
Well, actually, the documentation can be obtained from the public library in Anchorage...from the archives of the newspaper...and I did answer the question of prosecution on page 1 of this thread.
Does it matter that I have independant corroboration of cw`s account from years ago ...not only from a different mother who experienced the same horror in cw`s area.......I also met someone who knew this guy to have been caught having molested most of the children (including hers) in their state BEFORE being sent to alaska??
According to her...the parents were told that the ministry would take care of this *in house*....they find out later that he was simply sent to a different state... I`d say that constitues facillitation...
3 different people telling the same story independantly of each other....years apart....
Apparently ...the bot knew ... they talked the parents out of prosecuting....he was then put in a position with access to yet more children....
They THEN try to shut cw and her family up through threats and intimidation....whew...how many more times would they have covered for this guy if legal action hadn`t been brought to bear?
Cw had SAID she had coroborrating letters from vpw and lcm .....does this mean that you are calling her account a lie oldies?
My response was in the context of someone possibly accusing Don Wierwille of knowing about child abuse happening and doing nothing about it.
I think my statement still holds true...things happen that the BOT knew nothing about.
Regarding VPW's so-called responses...would it surprise you to learn that his mail was screened and its quite possible that he never saw what Coolwaters wrote? I know this firsthand, because I wrote him myself and got back responses signed by his screeners, but signed "Victor Paul Wierwille". I examined and investigated and found out that one of my letters was screened, and VPW never saw it. So yes, its possible that VPW didn't know about it and she got responses from letter screeners. Don Wierwille also could have been uninformed...
If the guy in AK was an employee or representative in any way (which it sounds like he was), it's almost negligence if they DIDN'T know about it. Any organization is responsible for it's representatives. If it's an employee, I believe you can be held criminally liable.
You can do CYA stuff with good lawyers but it's inconceivable that they wouldn't at least know about it.
Okay...I'll spill, but I don't want to discuss it nor do I want a bunch of posts telling me how sorry you are or anything like that okay?
My child was molested by a TC's teenager...The TC pushed me to let his teen babysit for extra $$$ and it happened. I was so young and stupid...
I notified the parents, and the limb cood. the real ....er is a lot of real traumatic stuff happened in our area (death, spousal abuse, alcoholism) and I'll be damned, everytime something bad happened, the branch guy would say..."oh, yeah, the devil is really kicking up trouble now...cuz "the word" is moving or some trash like that...I didn't want to tell him because I didn't want our experience used as a teaching point!
In his defense, a couple a years later, he, the branch coord. apologized...it was just where his head was at, at that time...I was happy he woke up...
I've been thinking about this all yesterday and even dreamed about it last night.
If anyone doubts what has been said here, so what? It's not my job to convince anybody. It does not change what happened one whit. It does not change what my daughter and the other children went through and must still deal with even now as adults.
If it is too hard for someone to think about the details of who might have known and not acted, too bad. I honestly don't care if that's the worst of what came out of their twi experience. Sometimes I wish that I could take all of the pain these kids live with, bottle it and then spike the punch with it at a "let's talk about the good in twi and the wonderful vpw/bot" party.
Anybody want to know more and figure things out? Do the legwork and find the articles and call the people involved. Some of them are still in twi. Others have their contact information out on the 'net. If anybody really wants to know, there's enough information on this thread alone for someone to get the newspaper articles and know.
But I don't think some want to know the truth of the matter at all.
I think some just want to sit safely behind a computer screen and snipe and belittle and degrade and dehumanize and discredit.
Because then life is once again just like it was in twi...or at least close enough to get one through another day.
And if people want to b*tch me out for being so callous, tough. I'm tired of being nice about this subject. It's not a nice subject.
twi as an organization harbored and coddled mean, demented and twisted low-lifes because that was the nature of it's founder. Period.
That's why twi bore the rotten fruit that twi bore.
If somebody can't handle this and doesn't like that this is an irrefutable fact, too bad, so sad. $hit happens. Grow up. Deal with it. Be glad that a fallen idol is the worst of your scars from twi.
But don't dump the $hit on me, my daughter and other parents and children anymore.
Damn (((CW))) I thought you were being quite restrained considering the subject.... I am sorry that in retelling this ...that you are disturbed to the point of dreaming about it...thinking about it all day... it`s like your getting beat up all over again....
Karmic...it should have never happened..I will say nothing else because you asked us not to...other than thank you.
It is indeed why twi bore putrid fruit....I think that oughtta be mounted, framed and then hung up somewhere around here.
Been locked out for a while, but I thought I would add my two bits for the record and for those that doubt.
My personal abuse stories may not have been hospital worthy, but they have left an impression in my mind for life and on my rear for days at times.
The physical abuse stories are also stories that my mother would probably reply with "Don't be a wuss!" but anyway...I think I have posted them here before separately...but here they are.
Being hit with a bible across the face from the full swing of an adult man, knocking me backwards out of my chair. Then he tried to pray for me and reproved me for not automatically letting him. This was in the corps, in front of other 4th thru 6th graders...taught us all a lesson. It was brought on because I forgot my bible. When I was asked wear it was I was in my room. When asked why I said, "well, because I forgot". So he gave me his...upside the head. You can see I obviously deserved it.
Another time, in the family corps, another adult was collecting basketballs and everyone was throwing them to him. I threw mind from his right and yelled his name. I mistakenly hit him in the head or shoulder. Before I could apologize, he threw it back at my head only with much more force, hitting me square in the face. He also showed no remorse and reproved me.
Numerous other times I was lifted of the ground by an open hand hit to the rear or bruised be a spoon. All done by people other than my parents. You see in the corps everyone was your parent and you were to view them that way.
If you didn't you were "taught" to.
The most hurtful abuse had to do with mental pressure and mental abuse into "confessing" about a preWAY sexual abuse. It was mentally beaten out of me using fear of being M&A, fear of losing my family because of that, losing everyone I cared about because of that, fear of being labeled a homo and under devil spirit influence, fear of lying to leadership, fear of disappointing God almighty.
No pressure.
If I had a nickel for every time I heard a leader say that while divisively getting what they wanted out of people, I'd be a rich man.
I'm so sorry lindy. I was an older teen when I got into twi. I did see the abuse but accepted it. Had no idea what it meant. I guess I was foolish and I'm sorry.
If you do not tell the truth about yourself you can not tell it about other people.
Awww damn Lindy...I am sorry...I never dreamed how bad it was for you youngsters...
I lived with a family corpes woman and her teen son...was always so envious of you guys who had parents in the *word*...thought *how MARVELOUS* to be able to go in the corpes with them...all that direction and guidance to become some sort of super spiritual christian....I am SO sorry ... I was so clueless....concerning what you and the rest of the ministry kids went through....
Actually, I'm angry after reading your story...angry with those who abused you and the system that encouraged it, promoted it and did nothing to stop it.
Was there ever anything we were taught in TWI that actually encouraged and promoted child abuse? Chapter and verse please.
It seems funny how lots of folks hung around for so long, 20-30 years even, in that system that supposedly encouraged and promoted child abuse. One might have thought they would have walked away long, long ago under those conditions.
Was there ever anything we were taught in TWI that actually encouraged and promoted child abuse? Chapter and verse please.
It seems funny how lots of folks hung around for so long, 20-30 years even, in that system that supposedly encouraged and promoted child abuse. One might have thought they would have walked away long, long ago under those conditions.
Funny? So glad you're enjoying yourself.
What kind of a person sits around and refuses to educate themselves about a subject yet posts as if they know what they're talking about?
Was there ever anything we were taught in TWI that actually encouraged and promoted child abuse? Chapter and verse please.
It seems funny how lots of folks hung around for so long, 20-30 years even, in that system that supposedly encouraged and promoted child abuse. One might have thought they would have walked away long, long ago under those conditions.
Well for chapter and verse, you should know as a once faithful TWIer it was the rod scripture....and beter than chapter and verse is the living , breathing testimony of those who suffered under the hands of those that abused and who justified their actions in teaching children to obey, without question and without hesitation because it would help the children learn to listen to and obey God and therefore save their lives.
Unfortunately, most people don't just walk away from abusive situations or institutions or relationships but then that is the direct result of being abused....make it hard to walk away.
Futhermore, how can you level that charge at the minors, or who were minors at the time when they had no other place to go, being minors other than the state system?????
And that doesn't even take into account the loyalty and devotion of children that they have, even towards them that have hurt them.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
77
46
60
90
Popular Days
Feb 25
51
Feb 19
50
Sep 1
43
Sep 12
35
Top Posters In This Topic
rascal 77 posts
excathedra 46 posts
oldiesman 60 posts
CoolWaters 90 posts
Popular Days
Feb 25 2004
51 posts
Feb 19 2004
50 posts
Sep 1 2004
43 posts
Sep 12 2004
35 posts
Popular Posts
Catcup
I, too am new to this particular thread. I spent several hours this morning looking through it. While I was never a part of any "initiation" ceremony (tongue in cheek or otherwise) that Evan describ
dmiller
Cool Waters (I DON'T MEAN THIS in "wayspeak") -- but you are THE BEST
:)-->
Thanks for all you have done, in this category. I never knew of it until I read it here. Guess I left too early -- good thing
:)--> bad thing 
:(-->
Edited by GuestLink to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Here's my opinion on this sad topic: there's no question that child abuse happened, but before I accuse someone of facilitating a crime, I'd want to get proof that they (by they, are we talking about the BOT?) knew what was happening and facilitated it. You can't blame the BOT for everything evil that went on. Some folks would like to. But I just remember what type of a man Don Wierwille was and can't believe he would have tolerated any instances of child abuse. "Prove all things"...
Edited by GuestLink to comment
Share on other sites
CoolWaters
Ummmmmm....OM....did you even read what I've written here?
Was it (in 1984-1986) up to the bot to appoint limb leaders and oversee what they were doing? How about knowing what was going on with one another? There's only 3 of them for gawd's sake.
If so, the bot was well aware of everything I knew was going on...via letters to and from vpw, d and lc m. And the bot turned a deaf ear.
If no, then I don't know what to say...except that twi is a far more closely run ship than that.
אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ
Link to comment
Share on other sites
JustThinking
Oldies,
Have to agree with you there.
CW,
It sounds as if you have or had documentation that people outside of your local area were notified. Was all corroborating evidence stolen? Did you file a police report? If I'm prying too much, tell me to shut up.
I ask because it upsets me to see people get away with these things. I came to GSC to gather information from an outside source. It's done that but it makes me want to see those genuinely guilty of such things prosecuted fully and given a cellmate named "bubba" who will take good care of them. (I'm told even inmates hate child-molesters)
You've probably already thought of these things but I had to ask.
Edited by GuestLink to comment
Share on other sites
CoolWaters
Well, actually, the documentation can be obtained from the public library in Anchorage...from the archives of the newspaper...and I did answer the question of prosecution on page 1 of this thread.
אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ
Edited by GuestLink to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Does it matter that I have independant corroboration of cw`s account from years ago ...not only from a different mother who experienced the same horror in cw`s area.......I also met someone who knew this guy to have been caught having molested most of the children (including hers) in their state BEFORE being sent to alaska??
According to her...the parents were told that the ministry would take care of this *in house*....they find out later that he was simply sent to a different state... I`d say that constitues facillitation...
3 different people telling the same story independantly of each other....years apart....
Apparently ...the bot knew ... they talked the parents out of prosecuting....he was then put in a position with access to yet more children....
They THEN try to shut cw and her family up through threats and intimidation....whew...how many more times would they have covered for this guy if legal action hadn`t been brought to bear?
Cw had SAID she had coroborrating letters from vpw and lcm .....does this mean that you are calling her account a lie oldies?
Edited by GuestLink to comment
Share on other sites
JustThinking
Rascal,
Even though you posed your questions to oldies, I'll add that I am NOT saying anyone lied or misrepresented anything.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CoolWaters
Yeah!
Does anybody think that the bot were contacted when it hit the newspapers?
אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
My response was in the context of someone possibly accusing Don Wierwille of knowing about child abuse happening and doing nothing about it.
I think my statement still holds true...things happen that the BOT knew nothing about.
Regarding VPW's so-called responses...would it surprise you to learn that his mail was screened and its quite possible that he never saw what Coolwaters wrote? I know this firsthand, because I wrote him myself and got back responses signed by his screeners, but signed "Victor Paul Wierwille". I examined and investigated and found out that one of my letters was screened, and VPW never saw it. So yes, its possible that VPW didn't know about it and she got responses from letter screeners. Don Wierwille also could have been uninformed...
Edited by GuestLink to comment
Share on other sites
CoolWaters
I repeat this question, OM.
אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ
Edited by GuestLink to comment
Share on other sites
JustThinking
CW,
If the guy in AK was an employee or representative in any way (which it sounds like he was), it's almost negligence if they DIDN'T know about it. Any organization is responsible for it's representatives. If it's an employee, I believe you can be held criminally liable.
You can do CYA stuff with good lawyers but it's inconceivable that they wouldn't at least know about it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
karmicdebt
Okay...I'll spill, but I don't want to discuss it nor do I want a bunch of posts telling me how sorry you are or anything like that okay?
My child was molested by a TC's teenager...The TC pushed me to let his teen babysit for extra $$$ and it happened. I was so young and stupid...
I notified the parents, and the limb cood. the real ....er is a lot of real traumatic stuff happened in our area (death, spousal abuse, alcoholism) and I'll be damned, everytime something bad happened, the branch guy would say..."oh, yeah, the devil is really kicking up trouble now...cuz "the word" is moving or some trash like that...I didn't want to tell him because I didn't want our experience used as a teaching point!
In his defense, a couple a years later, he, the branch coord. apologized...it was just where his head was at, at that time...I was happy he woke up...
Edited by GuestLink to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Strange
I hardly think that information of this nature coming in to VeePee or the other "trustees" would have been just "screened" and passed on...
try again...
I'm on the outside, looking inside, what do I see? Much confusion, disillusion, all around me.
Edited by GuestLink to comment
Share on other sites
CoolWaters
Ya know...
I've been thinking about this all yesterday and even dreamed about it last night.
If anyone doubts what has been said here, so what? It's not my job to convince anybody. It does not change what happened one whit. It does not change what my daughter and the other children went through and must still deal with even now as adults.
If it is too hard for someone to think about the details of who might have known and not acted, too bad. I honestly don't care if that's the worst of what came out of their twi experience. Sometimes I wish that I could take all of the pain these kids live with, bottle it and then spike the punch with it at a "let's talk about the good in twi and the wonderful vpw/bot" party.
Anybody want to know more and figure things out? Do the legwork and find the articles and call the people involved. Some of them are still in twi. Others have their contact information out on the 'net. If anybody really wants to know, there's enough information on this thread alone for someone to get the newspaper articles and know.
But I don't think some want to know the truth of the matter at all.
I think some just want to sit safely behind a computer screen and snipe and belittle and degrade and dehumanize and discredit.
Because then life is once again just like it was in twi...or at least close enough to get one through another day.
And if people want to b*tch me out for being so callous, tough. I'm tired of being nice about this subject. It's not a nice subject.
twi as an organization harbored and coddled mean, demented and twisted low-lifes because that was the nature of it's founder. Period.
That's why twi bore the rotten fruit that twi bore.
If somebody can't handle this and doesn't like that this is an irrefutable fact, too bad, so sad. $hit happens. Grow up. Deal with it. Be glad that a fallen idol is the worst of your scars from twi.
But don't dump the $hit on me, my daughter and other parents and children anymore.
אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Watered Garden
((((((((Cool Waters))))))))
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Damn (((CW))) I thought you were being quite restrained considering the subject.... I am sorry that in retelling this ...that you are disturbed to the point of dreaming about it...thinking about it all day... it`s like your getting beat up all over again....
Karmic...it should have never happened..I will say nothing else because you asked us not to...other than thank you.
It is indeed why twi bore putrid fruit....I think that oughtta be mounted, framed and then hung up somewhere around here.
Edited by GuestLink to comment
Share on other sites
Mandii
(((((((CoolWaters))))))) (((((((Karmic)))))))
Link to comment
Share on other sites
lindyhopper
Been locked out for a while, but I thought I would add my two bits for the record and for those that doubt.
My personal abuse stories may not have been hospital worthy, but they have left an impression in my mind for life and on my rear for days at times.
The physical abuse stories are also stories that my mother would probably reply with "Don't be a wuss!" but anyway...I think I have posted them here before separately...but here they are.
Being hit with a bible across the face from the full swing of an adult man, knocking me backwards out of my chair. Then he tried to pray for me and reproved me for not automatically letting him. This was in the corps, in front of other 4th thru 6th graders...taught us all a lesson. It was brought on because I forgot my bible. When I was asked wear it was I was in my room. When asked why I said, "well, because I forgot". So he gave me his...upside the head. You can see I obviously deserved it.
Another time, in the family corps, another adult was collecting basketballs and everyone was throwing them to him. I threw mind from his right and yelled his name. I mistakenly hit him in the head or shoulder. Before I could apologize, he threw it back at my head only with much more force, hitting me square in the face. He also showed no remorse and reproved me.
Numerous other times I was lifted of the ground by an open hand hit to the rear or bruised be a spoon. All done by people other than my parents. You see in the corps everyone was your parent and you were to view them that way.
If you didn't you were "taught" to.
The most hurtful abuse had to do with mental pressure and mental abuse into "confessing" about a preWAY sexual abuse. It was mentally beaten out of me using fear of being M&A, fear of losing my family because of that, losing everyone I cared about because of that, fear of being labeled a homo and under devil spirit influence, fear of lying to leadership, fear of disappointing God almighty.
No pressure.
If I had a nickel for every time I heard a leader say that while divisively getting what they wanted out of people, I'd be a rich man.
OK then...Who's your mommy?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
vickles
I'm so sorry lindy. I was an older teen when I got into twi. I did see the abuse but accepted it. Had no idea what it meant. I guess I was foolish and I'm sorry.
If you do not tell the truth about yourself you can not tell it about other people.
virginia woolfe
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Awww damn Lindy...I am sorry...I never dreamed how bad it was for you youngsters...
I lived with a family corpes woman and her teen son...was always so envious of you guys who had parents in the *word*...thought *how MARVELOUS* to be able to go in the corpes with them...all that direction and guidance to become some sort of super spiritual christian....I am SO sorry ... I was so clueless....concerning what you and the rest of the ministry kids went through....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mandii
(((((((Lindy)))))))
Actually, I'm angry after reading your story...angry with those who abused you and the system that encouraged it, promoted it and did nothing to stop it.
I am truly sorry.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Was there ever anything we were taught in TWI that actually encouraged and promoted child abuse? Chapter and verse please.
It seems funny how lots of folks hung around for so long, 20-30 years even, in that system that supposedly encouraged and promoted child abuse. One might have thought they would have walked away long, long ago under those conditions.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CoolWaters
Funny? So glad you're enjoying yourself.
What kind of a person sits around and refuses to educate themselves about a subject yet posts as if they know what they're talking about?
אַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַאַ
Edited by GuestLink to comment
Share on other sites
Mandii
Well for chapter and verse, you should know as a once faithful TWIer it was the rod scripture....and beter than chapter and verse is the living , breathing testimony of those who suffered under the hands of those that abused and who justified their actions in teaching children to obey, without question and without hesitation because it would help the children learn to listen to and obey God and therefore save their lives.
Unfortunately, most people don't just walk away from abusive situations or institutions or relationships but then that is the direct result of being abused....make it hard to walk away.
Futhermore, how can you level that charge at the minors, or who were minors at the time when they had no other place to go, being minors other than the state system?????
And that doesn't even take into account the loyalty and devotion of children that they have, even towards them that have hurt them.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.