"I feel sorry for you. You are in denial about what goes on in the way."
This is not how denial works. If someone doesn't belive a specific story, that doesn't mean they're in denial or that they don't belive abuse occured in TWI. geesh.
P.S. I think I wasn't clear above. When I said that child abuse (actually, child sexual abuse, I believe, though I will look again) is listed right along with wife-swapping, it for specifically for the Way International.
Please go back and read my post. I in no way am saying that child abuse did not occur in twi. What I am questioning is your repressed memories. I am not even questioning that you believe your memories are true, I am simply stating my opinion of your presentation of those memories. I am glad to have you give a copy of my response to your therapist, more than you know. Again, please, don't completely reject my thoughts, they aren't intended as an assault on you, take them as they are offered, as my opinion.
I realize that it was your opinion, which is why I said that I felt sorry for you. What I'd like to know is why you don't think they are true. Tell me something, if you had heard this story without the Way's name attached, would it be more believable? I'm sure you've heard worse than this if you pay attention to the headlines.
But I still have one question of you please. If the first post you do is rated NC-17, then what did you expect of us? Not to incite anger, an honest question of you.
I did not think of my post as NC-17. It was the truth, that is all I was thinking of it as. I guess I thought that this was a support group like others I have been in that are for sexual abuse survivors. It is something that you would regularly see there.
I understand but still think you would have avoided a great deal of hurting had you come in differently. Regardless I wish you well in your recovery. I am familiar with the process.
You ask a fair question. First of all....just so you know, I am a woman. Secondly, I don't know about the inner workings of any other cults than twi, but I know the inner workings of twi better than most. I also know quite a bit about repressed memories, which is why I am addressing them with you.
Please, I am not attacking you, and I am not questioning the fact that your experiences are real to you. I just do not believe that your memories are rightfully attributed to anything that happened at Stalag (I mean) Camp Gunnison.
Waysurvivor, email or private message myself or ExCathedra. She and I have different paths in life, but have experiences similar to yours. No one that has not experienced sexual abuse can relate to those that have, at least not on a particular and personal level.
You thought this was a recovery site, for some people it is...but there is all kind of recovery missions, and all kind of recovery sites.
I am not speaking for Exxie here but personally, my opinion is that spiritual abuse is much worse than sexual abuse, it cuts deeper and its consequences are eternal.
"personally, my opinion is that spiritual abuse is much worse than sexual abuse, it cuts deeper and its consequences are eternal."
I think it's best not to compare abuses. That's very personal and theres no one answer. That's why I got irritated when waysurvivor said something to the tone of "You call yourself a survivior you know nothing".
Why cuz I wasn't raped by men in robes? Why cuz spiritual abuse is worse than sexual abuse.
See what I mean? Not mad at anyone just wanted to point out that comparing what's worse accomplishes nothing good :)-->
I am/have been a victim of three. Familial incest from my cousin at age of 8, rape from a guy in my twig in 1979 and spiritual abuse ....from age 14- 44.
I am perfectly qualified to make my decision and publish my decision as MY OPINION.
CoolWaters----you jumped all over Jim earlier. I have known him almost all of my life. He is a good man, and has experienced at least as much as you have at the hands of twi. I agree with him, child abuse was the EXCEPTION. But that doesn't mean IT DIDN'T HAPPEN, and it certainly doesn't mean it didn't happen to you or your loved ones or any number of other people.
I am very sorry, Jim. I had no intention of jumping on you. Even going back and re-reading what I wrote, I don't see what I would think of as "jumping on" you...which only means that I am often an insensitive clod when it comes to perceiving myself.
I will remove whatever I've written that is jumping on you...if you will please tell me what it was...so that I won't do it again...and so I will have learned something.
Thank you for your kind and thoughtful post to Jim. He is his own MAN....and that he is, A MAN. Your apology means (probably) more to me than Jim. I brought it up SOLEY because it helped illustrate a point, that IN MY OPINION twi was a compilation of people and actions, weak, strong...and that many injustices are done. I want to say again, that I do not doubt the accounts that you and Mo have posted.
It is VERY important to me personally that you understand that I am IN NO WAY questioning the veracity of the events that happened to you and Mo....in my opinion, neither was Jim.
This thread..it is ugly and exposes an underbelly of LIFE and LIFE IN TWI that we never thought we would have to deal with.
Thanks again CW.......thank you so much for taking my comments in the spirit in which they were offered....cyber world can be difficult, thank you for taking the time to evaluate a point of view that may have been different than your own.
I am very sorry, Jim. I had no intention of jumping on you. Even going back and re-reading what I wrote, I don't see what I would think of as "jumping on" you...which only means that I am often an insensitive clod when it comes to perceiving myself.
I will remove whatever I've written that is jumping on you...if you will please tell me what it was...so that I won't do it again...and so I will have learned something.
Cool,
If I were offended, and I am not, I would expect an apology, not a removal of the post. Rewriting history doesn't fix anything, it just obscures it. But don't worry about it. I've read your posts for years and when I crossed you "I knew the job was dangerous when I took it".
Nonetheless, I appreciate Radar's comment. I'm just sad I couldn't have helped her back in '79.
So here's the thing about child abuse claims. More than one innocent person has had their life destroyed by unfounded accusations of child abuse. More than one person has been held hostage in divorce proceedings by the threat of child abuse claims. More than one person has had to deal with the consequences of false repressed memories.
Does any of this mean that child abuse doesn't exist? Of course not. Child abuse exists and it is heinously tragic. But it also means that it should not be used to entrap innocent people. It means no witchhunts.
Now a person is free to come to GS and post pretty much anything they want within the broad guidelines that Paw has set. Does it mean I have to believe every post that I read. Of course not. Waysurvivor has given us scarce information to go on as to her credability. GS operates on a "web of trust" Many of us have known others personally. In other cases, we have read each others' posts for years. Based on the "web of trust, we rate the veracity of each post. I know enough about Excathedra that I don't doubt her word. Same with Radar. I know nothing about Waysurvivor and I just can't take her statements on her word. For all we know, she may be a lawyer or a government employee fishing for God know's what. All we know about her is her posts. The fact that she admits she was not a member is of no consequences.
Does this mean I want to protect TWI? Again, of course not. Anyone who's read my posts for any amount of time knows that I have no desire to protect TWI.
The one common thread that goes through most of us here is that we are truth seeking individuals. That's why we got into TWI and thats why we got out or were kicked out. There's no triumph in damaging TWI if it's done without truth.
So understand that you can post anything you want, but we are under no obligation to believe you. GS can be a hard crowd, but it also can be a loving and healing crowd. We aren't a support group, but lots of support is given, and we're not a Christian group, but lots of Christian teaching gets shared.
Waysurvivor, if you are what you say you are, contact the people that have offered to help. They are good people and will do their best to do the right thing.
Kewl, Jim. (Although I'm scratching my head about the "crossing" me statement....I've been a good girl for a long time...right?)
Just so that nobody is confused about where I stand concerning waysurvivor's story...
I think she's doing exactly what she says she's doing: working it all out in her head.
My original intent in responding about her story was not to validate it or lend a sense of "truth" to it, but to do these things:
Point out the things in her story that have already been said...and often documented...by others here at GSC.
Reiterate that twi was not and is not just an organization with a few bad apples.
Explain a little bit about how traumatic memories often work.
Remind folks that knowing somebody or being "in the know" in an organization does not automatically mean that one knows the "whole truth".
Offer waysurvivor the opportunity to PT with me.
I have no clue as to who waysurvivor is or is not...or if she is or is not taking all of the information available here at GSC and making her own story.
What I thought was "true" when I first got involved with trance.net is far different from what I think is "true" now...and I'm very glad for that! I would have never arrived at where I'm at today if I hadn't been challenged in my thinking by you all then and now.
It is good that waysurvivor's story is being challenged...for all the reasons you and others have given, for her own well-being, and for keeping us all on our toes about our own journeys.
GO back and read what I said About false memories.
The issue some posters have with you isn't that you believe everything you write is the truth, rather that they believe you have false memories in some areas.
And they need to understand that our memories are REAL. False or not once they become memories they are real to us.
THerefore the person who has these memories suffers just the same as anyone else with such memories.
I too find questionable some of the more Ritualistic parts of your memories--but based on what My family went through--I have no trouble beliving you were raped as you said--my daughter was 3 when it started.
I don't know that her memories are necessarily false, they might be crossing.
For example, GeorgioJessio or another poster here has said that he doesn't remember that there was a TV/movie room at Gunnison.
Waysurvivor has said that she went through this from the time she was 7 until she was 12. Well, I don't think anyone that wasn't on staff stayed there 5 years running. She also said that she was there in 1982. If she was there 5 years, she would have said 1982-1987.
So that's what leads me to believe that most of what happened, happened outside of Gunnison. But that some things DID happen at Gunnison. And that her father is a pedophile and a rapist and a pimp, and should be tried, convicted, and if found guilty, executed.
Thank you to those who have been supporting me. I'm talking privately with one person in this group, though I've chosen not to private message a few whose opinions I found to be condescending. Let me just say for those of you who feel that my memories may be false, that there is no such thing as false body memories, and when these flashbacks come up WITH the body memories, they are considered by experts to be true. Also, I've been talking to my mother lately, and seeing as how my father all but admitted that these events did happen (he said the "WEll, if it happened, I don't remember bit that all pedophiles seem to say), I'm inclined to believe that they are true, especially since they are my memories and my feelings.
After seeing the errors I made and apologised, I hoped that perhaps it would wear off on some of you.
It doesn't appear that it has in some cases. So I would like to ask those of you who are still doubting challenging and disbelieving a question or two.
Is being right so important that it is worth hurting someone? Someone who has already been abused? In the years after my experience of sexual abuse, I repressed those memories to the point that it almost felt like it wasn't real. It wasn't untill I was presured by my leadership that I finally told someone. Not the best case senario. Abuse takes on many forms and damages in many ways, but first and foremost it damages you in your head. Memories are a funny thing. But denying someones memories whether they are factual or otherwise can be a damaging thing in and of itself. Is that really what you want to do? Or do you just want to think you are right? In the end does it really matter? What would we have to loose if waysurvivor was a lurking lawyer? If you do have something to loose I would suggest keeping quite, but I doubt that most of us do.
None of us know waysurvivor personally (that we know of). None of us are her therapist. I doubt that any of us are anyone's therapist (hopefully not). So, I don't feel that it is our place to question an unknown person's memories of abuse. I may be wrong. CW probably has much more experience in this than I do, but that is my opinion, and I hope we stop all this.
From what others say, about the black robes, ws saying she stayed in a room w/ her father and sibling, all the other accounts of abuse we've read over the years, we should not be suprised at this point.
All this doubting and denial sounds like someone who's name begins with an "O" and ends with a "ldiesman". You wouldn't want that would you. ;)-->
Body memory is a physical reaction to certain stimuli, like sights, sounds, or smells, based on previous experience with those stimuli, even if the conscious mind does not remember. If the experience was a frightening one, the person might suddenly start to hyperventilate, feel afraid, even vomit, even though there is no reason to feel afraid at that moment. The person may or may not realize what is setting the reaction off.
One example: You smell something pungent, and feel strangely peaceful and cozy. Only later do you realize that what you smelled was mothballs, and your favorite grandmother used to keep her sweaters in a box full of them.
Another example: A co-worker walks by, and you start to feel very angry at him, even though he didn't do anything. He just smells like hate to you. But what he really smells like is cologne, the same brand of cologne worn by the man who sexually assaulted you years ago. You didn't even remember he wore cologne until that moment.
Hope that helps,
Shaz
(edited to fix the spelling of conScious. I hate it when I misspell!)
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Catcup
I, too am new to this particular thread. I spent several hours this morning looking through it. While I was never a part of any "initiation" ceremony (tongue in cheek or otherwise) that Evan describ
Georgio Jessio
"I feel sorry for you. You are in denial about what goes on in the way."
This is not how denial works. If someone doesn't belive a specific story, that doesn't mean they're in denial or that they don't belive abuse occured in TWI. geesh.
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waysurvivor
P.S. I think I wasn't clear above. When I said that child abuse (actually, child sexual abuse, I believe, though I will look again) is listed right along with wife-swapping, it for specifically for the Way International.
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excathedra
no really radar, that's fine
dear waysurvivor, please contact me:
excathedra2000@yahoo.com
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Radar OReilly
Waysurvivor,
Please go back and read my post. I in no way am saying that child abuse did not occur in twi. What I am questioning is your repressed memories. I am not even questioning that you believe your memories are true, I am simply stating my opinion of your presentation of those memories. I am glad to have you give a copy of my response to your therapist, more than you know. Again, please, don't completely reject my thoughts, they aren't intended as an assault on you, take them as they are offered, as my opinion.
Radar
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waysurvivor
I realize that it was your opinion, which is why I said that I felt sorry for you. What I'd like to know is why you don't think they are true. Tell me something, if you had heard this story without the Way's name attached, would it be more believable? I'm sure you've heard worse than this if you pay attention to the headlines.
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houseisarockin
I understand but still think you would have avoided a great deal of hurting had you come in differently. Regardless I wish you well in your recovery. I am familiar with the process.
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houseisarockin
NC-17 has become the supposed antidote for films containing only pornographic or explicit elements.
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Radar OReilly
Waysurvivor,
You ask a fair question. First of all....just so you know, I am a woman. Secondly, I don't know about the inner workings of any other cults than twi, but I know the inner workings of twi better than most. I also know quite a bit about repressed memories, which is why I am addressing them with you.
Please, I am not attacking you, and I am not questioning the fact that your experiences are real to you. I just do not believe that your memories are rightfully attributed to anything that happened at Stalag (I mean) Camp Gunnison.
Waysurvivor, email or private message myself or ExCathedra. She and I have different paths in life, but have experiences similar to yours. No one that has not experienced sexual abuse can relate to those that have, at least not on a particular and personal level.
You thought this was a recovery site, for some people it is...but there is all kind of recovery missions, and all kind of recovery sites.
I am not speaking for Exxie here but personally, my opinion is that spiritual abuse is much worse than sexual abuse, it cuts deeper and its consequences are eternal.
Radar
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Georgio Jessio
"personally, my opinion is that spiritual abuse is much worse than sexual abuse, it cuts deeper and its consequences are eternal."
I think it's best not to compare abuses. That's very personal and theres no one answer. That's why I got irritated when waysurvivor said something to the tone of "You call yourself a survivior you know nothing".
Why cuz I wasn't raped by men in robes? Why cuz spiritual abuse is worse than sexual abuse.
See what I mean? Not mad at anyone just wanted to point out that comparing what's worse accomplishes nothing good
:)-->
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Radar OReilly
Georgio,
I am/have been a victim of three. Familial incest from my cousin at age of 8, rape from a guy in my twig in 1979 and spiritual abuse ....from age 14- 44.
I am perfectly qualified to make my decision and publish my decision as MY OPINION.
Any questions......private message me.
Radar
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CoolWaters
I am very sorry, Jim. I had no intention of jumping on you. Even going back and re-reading what I wrote, I don't see what I would think of as "jumping on" you...which only means that I am often an insensitive clod when it comes to perceiving myself.
I will remove whatever I've written that is jumping on you...if you will please tell me what it was...so that I won't do it again...and so I will have learned something.
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Georgio Jessio
Radar, I went thru the same things. I think I'm qualified too.
But yeah go nuts. I wasn't saying you couldn't state your opinion. I didn't ask for proof of your pain. I never doubted your qualifications.
All I'm saying is that's YOUR story and it's not a scientific fact that one form of abuse is worse than another. My only point:
I think it's best not to compare abuses. That's very personal and theres no one answer.
There is no answer to the question: What kind of abuse is worse?
I have no questions for you.
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Radar OReilly
CW
:)-->
Thank you for your kind and thoughtful post to Jim. He is his own MAN....and that he is, A MAN. Your apology means (probably) more to me than Jim. I brought it up SOLEY because it helped illustrate a point, that IN MY OPINION twi was a compilation of people and actions, weak, strong...and that many injustices are done. I want to say again, that I do not doubt the accounts that you and Mo have posted.
It is VERY important to me personally that you understand that I am IN NO WAY questioning the veracity of the events that happened to you and Mo....in my opinion, neither was Jim.
This thread..it is ugly and exposes an underbelly of LIFE and LIFE IN TWI that we never thought we would have to deal with.
Thanks again CW.......thank you so much for taking my comments in the spirit in which they were offered....cyber world can be difficult, thank you for taking the time to evaluate a point of view that may have been different than your own.
Radar
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CoolWaters
{{{{{Radar}}}}}
Thank you for taking the time to say what you felt in a way that was easy to hear.
I'm learning the personality of each poster...and maybe that's helping.
;)-->
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Jim
Cool,
If I were offended, and I am not, I would expect an apology, not a removal of the post. Rewriting history doesn't fix anything, it just obscures it. But don't worry about it. I've read your posts for years and when I crossed you "I knew the job was dangerous when I took it".
Nonetheless, I appreciate Radar's comment. I'm just sad I couldn't have helped her back in '79.
So here's the thing about child abuse claims. More than one innocent person has had their life destroyed by unfounded accusations of child abuse. More than one person has been held hostage in divorce proceedings by the threat of child abuse claims. More than one person has had to deal with the consequences of false repressed memories.
Does any of this mean that child abuse doesn't exist? Of course not. Child abuse exists and it is heinously tragic. But it also means that it should not be used to entrap innocent people. It means no witchhunts.
Now a person is free to come to GS and post pretty much anything they want within the broad guidelines that Paw has set. Does it mean I have to believe every post that I read. Of course not. Waysurvivor has given us scarce information to go on as to her credability. GS operates on a "web of trust" Many of us have known others personally. In other cases, we have read each others' posts for years. Based on the "web of trust, we rate the veracity of each post. I know enough about Excathedra that I don't doubt her word. Same with Radar. I know nothing about Waysurvivor and I just can't take her statements on her word. For all we know, she may be a lawyer or a government employee fishing for God know's what. All we know about her is her posts. The fact that she admits she was not a member is of no consequences.
Does this mean I want to protect TWI? Again, of course not. Anyone who's read my posts for any amount of time knows that I have no desire to protect TWI.
The one common thread that goes through most of us here is that we are truth seeking individuals. That's why we got into TWI and thats why we got out or were kicked out. There's no triumph in damaging TWI if it's done without truth.
So understand that you can post anything you want, but we are under no obligation to believe you. GS can be a hard crowd, but it also can be a loving and healing crowd. We aren't a support group, but lots of support is given, and we're not a Christian group, but lots of Christian teaching gets shared.
Waysurvivor, if you are what you say you are, contact the people that have offered to help. They are good people and will do their best to do the right thing.
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CoolWaters
Kewl, Jim. (Although I'm scratching my head about the "crossing" me statement....I've been a good girl for a long time...right?)
Just so that nobody is confused about where I stand concerning waysurvivor's story...
I think she's doing exactly what she says she's doing: working it all out in her head.
My original intent in responding about her story was not to validate it or lend a sense of "truth" to it, but to do these things:
I have no clue as to who waysurvivor is or is not...or if she is or is not taking all of the information available here at GSC and making her own story.
What I thought was "true" when I first got involved with trance.net is far different from what I think is "true" now...and I'm very glad for that! I would have never arrived at where I'm at today if I hadn't been challenged in my thinking by you all then and now.
It is good that waysurvivor's story is being challenged...for all the reasons you and others have given, for her own well-being, and for keeping us all on our toes about our own journeys.
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templelady
WAysurvivor
GO back and read what I said About false memories.
The issue some posters have with you isn't that you believe everything you write is the truth, rather that they believe you have false memories in some areas.
And they need to understand that our memories are REAL. False or not once they become memories they are real to us.
THerefore the person who has these memories suffers just the same as anyone else with such memories.
I too find questionable some of the more Ritualistic parts of your memories--but based on what My family went through--I have no trouble beliving you were raped as you said--my daughter was 3 when it started.
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Steve!
I don't know that her memories are necessarily false, they might be crossing.
For example, GeorgioJessio or another poster here has said that he doesn't remember that there was a TV/movie room at Gunnison.
Waysurvivor has said that she went through this from the time she was 7 until she was 12. Well, I don't think anyone that wasn't on staff stayed there 5 years running. She also said that she was there in 1982. If she was there 5 years, she would have said 1982-1987.
So that's what leads me to believe that most of what happened, happened outside of Gunnison. But that some things DID happen at Gunnison. And that her father is a pedophile and a rapist and a pimp, and should be tried, convicted, and if found guilty, executed.
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waysurvivor
Thank you to those who have been supporting me. I'm talking privately with one person in this group, though I've chosen not to private message a few whose opinions I found to be condescending. Let me just say for those of you who feel that my memories may be false, that there is no such thing as false body memories, and when these flashbacks come up WITH the body memories, they are considered by experts to be true. Also, I've been talking to my mother lately, and seeing as how my father all but admitted that these events did happen (he said the "WEll, if it happened, I don't remember bit that all pedophiles seem to say), I'm inclined to believe that they are true, especially since they are my memories and my feelings.
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lindyhopper
After seeing the errors I made and apologised, I hoped that perhaps it would wear off on some of you.
It doesn't appear that it has in some cases. So I would like to ask those of you who are still doubting challenging and disbelieving a question or two.
Is being right so important that it is worth hurting someone? Someone who has already been abused? In the years after my experience of sexual abuse, I repressed those memories to the point that it almost felt like it wasn't real. It wasn't untill I was presured by my leadership that I finally told someone. Not the best case senario. Abuse takes on many forms and damages in many ways, but first and foremost it damages you in your head. Memories are a funny thing. But denying someones memories whether they are factual or otherwise can be a damaging thing in and of itself. Is that really what you want to do? Or do you just want to think you are right? In the end does it really matter? What would we have to loose if waysurvivor was a lurking lawyer? If you do have something to loose I would suggest keeping quite, but I doubt that most of us do.
None of us know waysurvivor personally (that we know of). None of us are her therapist. I doubt that any of us are anyone's therapist (hopefully not). So, I don't feel that it is our place to question an unknown person's memories of abuse. I may be wrong. CW probably has much more experience in this than I do, but that is my opinion, and I hope we stop all this.
From what others say, about the black robes, ws saying she stayed in a room w/ her father and sibling, all the other accounts of abuse we've read over the years, we should not be suprised at this point.
All this doubting and denial sounds like someone who's name begins with an "O" and ends with a "ldiesman". You wouldn't want that would you.
;)-->
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jackmm
Waysurvivor,
Please explain what a body memory is. I haven't heard that term before.
Jack
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shazdancer
Body memory is a physical reaction to certain stimuli, like sights, sounds, or smells, based on previous experience with those stimuli, even if the conscious mind does not remember. If the experience was a frightening one, the person might suddenly start to hyperventilate, feel afraid, even vomit, even though there is no reason to feel afraid at that moment. The person may or may not realize what is setting the reaction off.
One example: You smell something pungent, and feel strangely peaceful and cozy. Only later do you realize that what you smelled was mothballs, and your favorite grandmother used to keep her sweaters in a box full of them.
Another example: A co-worker walks by, and you start to feel very angry at him, even though he didn't do anything. He just smells like hate to you. But what he really smells like is cologne, the same brand of cologne worn by the man who sexually assaulted you years ago. You didn't even remember he wore cologne until that moment.
Hope that helps,
Shaz
(edited to fix the spelling of conScious. I hate it when I misspell!)
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oldiesman
Lindy:
Cheap shot, especially since this is the first I've posted on this thread.Oops correction, this is the first I've posted since Waysurvivor came on board ...
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jackmm
Shaz,
Thanks.
Jack
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