I apologized and said I wasn't trying to antagonize you. Why wouldn't you believe that I mean it. Why WOULD I antagonize you? What would I do THAT for?
For the record, I never said you were a liar. I said it was graphic and over the top and the graphic nature of the post wasn't necessary. I'm trying to eat dinner and read some posts. If you say "I was gang raped" that's HORRIBLE ENOUGH. I didn't need to know about the flavor of semen. Disagree with me if you want, but don't take it for being mean or calling you a liar, which I believe you just called me. Why is it ok for you to call me a liar? Why is it ok for you to be mean to me?
Oh man I got sucked back into this post. I mean it, I have said all I can say. I told you that I would be willing to speak to you, as a fellow survivor. I meant it. read my first post again:
"Your account has far too much graphic information.
If you want to discuss this, email me. It would do you more good to talk to a fellow survivor rather than make this entire board physically ill. We've all been thru too much without spelling out the twisted details.
I appreciate your sharing, don't get me wrong..."
I never called you twisted. I said the details of a gang rape are twisted and we didn't need to know every little detail. Gang rape is a very twisted thing.
Read it again, stop thinking I attacked you and am not sincere. Good luck, keep working hard and you'll come out ok in the end. I had a really hard time post way , had PTSD, suicide, flashbacks, behavioral issues. It hit me hard. I know about being a survivor.
quote: Lindyhopper, I can't understand how you can say that you don't doubt something happened, that it sounds like a classic case, and then say that my story is an "elaborate and creative lie." What kind of person can be so contradictory?
I don't know, a moment of weekness, I suppose. I thought about what I wrote last night during the day today and I felt terrible about. You have my most sincere apologies. One for calling you a liar and two for being the one that started all this. Although around here, being that your story was what it was, I don't doubt that someone else would have been right behind me to try to discredit it.
As I thought it over today, I felt bad knowing that even if the parts of your story that seemed uncredible, it shouldn't have mattered to me. Whether you were telling the truth, telling partial truth and partial exagerated memories, or whether it was a complete fabrication, the possibility of me calling a true victim a liar totally outweights the possibility of your story being untrue, whether you were an exwayfer or not. SO, again I am sorry.
If you were 7 in 82, then we would be the same age. If you were there on a weekend in 84, maybe we crossed paths.
I would like to know more about the parts of your story that I thought were questionable, not to try to qualify your story, but because if true they are some of the most outrageous things I have heard about the way or its members and I would be very interested in knowing a little more. Like being put in a box with spiders, the men chasing you in black robes. Other things that I thought were a little contrary to my memory were you having your own room and there being a TV room. But at the age of seven I realise that both of our memories could be off. Well, I guess I should speak for myself.
Your interest, in creative writing, also thru me for a loop, this being your first post and it sounding so contrary to my experience. But my first post was a long descriptive one as well. So wht can I say. I fell for the "my experience being more true" trap.
Agian, regardless of whether you were in twi or not or whether your story is true or not, I am sorry for assuming.
waysurvivor says to me "You are a disgusting pig who has no place being here"...
Looks like we got off on the wrong foot? If all that stuff really happened, then I was certainly being insensitive. To be honest, it never entered my mind that it was true...the story was the most extreme case that I had ever heard taking place in twi and the black robes and the dunkings and boxes with spiders...well, in spite of coolwater's helpful psycoanalysis, it still seems pretty bizare to me. If I upset you, it was not my intention and I apologize for that. My earlier post was written to someone who I thought was pulling a prank.
I am genuinely sorry for what you are dealing with. But I don't understand a few things. -->
quote:I was raped at Camp Gunnison when I was seven, possibly until I was twelve. My father was a member, but he and my mother were divorced. She told him not to take us there, but he did.
You said raped at Camp Gunnison when you were seven possibly until you were twelve. Is this saying you were raped at CG over that period of time? Or it began at seven and continued until you were twelve in some other location? You see later on you stated...
quote:Well, it happened over one weekend. It's a bit hard to stop when it happens like that, and it's hard to stop when it's being made a secret.
Thus you may see my confusion on that point.
quote:They tried to intimidate me by pretending that they were going to run me over. They've taken my stuff, and because I tend to lose things, I would, at first, think it was just me...until my things were returned to me only days later, neatly lined up under a car seat in a newly cleaned car that had previously been devoid of any possessions.
If they wanted you to stop doing something I think they would do it differently. And this may be a good time to tell you that you now have a file started at HQ. Any details you have stated are in fact being chased down for authenticity. Not to scare you but to inform you that you are not in play-land here. For your protection and consideration only, not to induce fear in you.
quote:Sometimes, people just need to talk, they need to say the things that happened. That is what support sites are for, so it would be good if you tried to be more like one. I needed support. Instead, I was victimized. I hope you all feel real good about yourselves.
Why did you not say this coming in? You have been registered for nearly 2 years. I'm going to assume that you have read us to some degree because you know of the abuse stories we have spoken of here. So did you not consider it may be a good thing to just start by saying hi? You would have seen how most go about joining in here. Leading me to another aspect of this. Have you then not also observed when "those who would desire to make us appear as fools" came cruising through? You would have seen it if reading us between your registration and present date.
quote:Your proof, for all who didn't believe and attacked me, is in Temple.
There is no problem in believing Temple. Nor would there be one in you if perhaps you had started this out a bit differently. Something for your consideration. And regardless of my questions of you, I am sorry for any pain you endured. That is genuine on my part.
As a new discoverer of this thread, let me say how sorry I am to all you who suffered as a parent or child.
Color me gullible because I believe you. Well, "believe" is a bit strong. How about this: I don't disbelieve you.
1. I had personal knowledge of group sex in Der Veg. not a big leap from that to the other
2. Herr Doktor, following the legacy of predators everywhere, used porn on his subjects, even publicly.
3. Porn is clearly a gateway (for those so afflicted) to pedophelia.
4. A culture that rewarded domineering bullies.
I'm wondering if the black robes memory came from a Way "inner-sanctum" initiation ceremony. Anybody every go through that? I did. Wierwille conducted it as the grand wizard. Yes, that's what he called himself. Various unidentified Corps in the black hooded robes assisted. The proceedings were ostensibly tongue-in-cheek.
Waysurvivor, please check with Steve and Patty Faye Roberts, Knoxville, Tenn...They are in the white pages...I'm sure that they would be more than happy to tell you that I am no longer associated with the way cult and that I left on my own accord.
I, too am new to this particular thread. I spent several hours this morning looking through it.
While I was never a part of any "initiation" ceremony (tongue in cheek or otherwise) that Evan described, had I personally known what was going on, I would have never put up with it.
And I know several men who if they had known of a father sexually abusing his child, would personally have escorted him out behind the barn and beaten him within an inch of his life before handing him over to the authorities.
TWI was an interesting mix. Depending on where your assignment was and who your leadership was, there are a variety of contradictory experiences, all of them VALID.
There is a lot of mention of leadership physically and/or sexually abusing children in their fellowship.
I am here to tell you that it also happened the other way around.
When I first moved to NW Indiana, and I did not know anyone there, I had to leave my daughter (age 3 at the time) with a believer I had never met. The next time I needed a babysitter and I was going to leave her at this woman's house, my daughter was reluctant for me to leave. She had never behaved that way before, and I was concerned. But I "trusted" the believer. How wrong I was.
When my husband brought my daughter home from the babysitter, and I questioned my little girl about how the evening went, she began crying and told me about how the woman sat and watched while her 5 year old son pushed her around all night and eventually knocked her into a table and hurt her head. When I brushed back her hair and looked, her ear was caked, CAKED with BLOOD which had also run down her neck.
I called the woman and let her know what I found, and she offered no explanation for why she allowed this to happen. She "had no idea" my daughter was hurt. She admitted she watched her son push her around, and offered no explanation for why she did not intervene. She did not even bother to check my daughter's head for injuries, or to even tell my husband that an incident had occurred when he picked her up. I let the woman have it.
I never took my daughter over there again, and she never came to my fellowship, either! She would NOT HAVE BEEN WELCOME.
My daughter was also sexually abused by the child of someone in our fellowship. Unlike the previous incident, I left my daughter with a non-Corps woman who I trusted more than anyone else in my branch. I had known her for at least two or more years, and allowed her to babysit my daughter overnight, only because I considered her a trusted friend. This woman had two children, a boy and a girl, several years older than my 6 year old.
The next morning after my daughter came home, she had a hickey on her neck! When I asked her how she got it, she was upset and embarassed, and told me that this woman's daughter had done it playing "vampire." I also learned that in that household this woman allowed her children to watch R rated movies that were inappropriate for her own age children, let alone my child.
I had considered this woman a trusted friend of mine, but I found out that even after knowing her for several years, there were still things I didn't know about how she ran her household and oversaw her children.
And as a good question-asking intrusive Way Corps overseer, I thought I knew.
So then this woman learned from me a few things she didn't know about her own kids.
I got in her face and I kicked her @$$.
Hard.
And she learned a few things. She was humiliated, sorry, and honestly made some changes in her life, and tried to make some changes with her kids.
I talked with her kids about it, too. They apologized, and everything seemd to be ok after that, but later on, her boy got in trouble several times. The Mom truly made valiant efforts at correcting behaviors, but I think the horse was out of the barn for her kids.
We continued our friendship, but I never trusted her with my daughter again.
Now more than a decade down the line, recently I ran across a photo of this woman's daughter, and I mentioned how I missed her mom. Then my daughter stood up and told me how she hated that girl. She was finally old enough to tell me that this girl had actually sexually abused her that night.
I had actually forgotten the incident till she brought it up when we were looking at the picture. And I learned far more than I knew even then about what actually occurred that night.
And I want to kick the woman's @$$ all over again,
But she IS STILL IN TWI AND SO ARE HER CHILDREN.
So, it isn't just "leadership" doing the abusing. This is a two way street and they also learn it other places than from "leadership" who did it to them.
As for TWI "condoning" beating your child senseless, of course they did not "condone" it. They condemned it loudly from the podium.
However, it doesn't take a genius to note that many many times, what TWI condemned outwardly on one hand was actually practiced privately with impunity by the other.
And yes, I remember a Rock of Ages in the 90's where Donna Dearest came before the entire ministry to "set the record straight" about how to "properly" use the "rod of correction."
But there is a strange disconnect regarding the time frame. With reports and examples common among the ministry as early as the 70's that the rod was chronically being misused, why the twenty-year wait?
In 1976 or 1977 in Altamonte Springs, FL, I witnessed Bob Moynihan smack a three year old girl on the legs for a good 45 minutes, simply because she had not said hello to me when I said hello to her.
I told Moynihan it didn't bother me-- she is just a kid-- I'm not upset she didn't speak to me. Apparently she had an "attitude" problem according to Bob, and he made me stand there while he smacked her little legs for I know at least 45 minutes until she broke down in tears and said hello to me.
THIS is the EXAMPLE that the STILL oh-so-revered REVEREND MOYNIHAN set for me as an interim Corps person as to how you handle SOMEONE ELSE'S obstinate child. You make the entire world stand still for an hour while you smack the little legs of a child and bully them into obedience for your own ego.
THIS is the man they eventually put in charge of Rome City for years.
And yes, when visiting Rome City, I remember being told proudly by the in-residence Indiana Corps (my in-laws in fact) that they were actually told to correct one another's kids even in the presence of their own parents if the parents did not do it first. That was circa late 80's I believe. Even then I thought that was weird and excessive.
The straw that broke the camel's back for my participation in TWI was when Josephine Wallace countermanded my instructions to my daughter right in front of me.
Who the hell, and I don't care WHAT "program" you are in, has the right to usurp my own authority over my child? It is for that reason I finally left this wretched cult.
I don't doubt your memories of your experiences at Gunnison, but I do doubt their veracity. You seem to have a lot of REALLY serious issues with your time in WayWorld - as all of us can certainly understand, but, regardless of what actually happened to you there, I concur with the other posters who've suggested that seeking out a professional counselor would be far more helpful (and needful) than posting here at GS.
I find your story very reminiscent to the McMartin Preschool scandal of a few years back.
What actually went on there is still pretty vague. Memory - especially a child's - can be like that. It's impossible for those of us not directly connected to your story to be able to sort out the actual events from traumatic delusions. I wonder if you can.
Anyway, my sympathies. I hope you find the help you seek.
I cannot imagine how intimidating and confusing it must have been to be a child at the Rome City campus. I am sorry for all that you went through there. You did not deserve one bit of it, and none of it was your fault.
Make up your mind that you will not carry on that legacy, but be a part of the solution in your own family.
One more RC incident...
When my daughter was just around 18 months old, our family visited Rome City for a Sunday night service. I had never left my girl with a babysitter of any sort at that time besides family, and I wanted to ease her into the idea of being left at the Children's fellowship.
So, I took her to the Children's fellowship area early and wanted to take her in the room myself, and show her around, describe what the fellowship would be like, and introduce her to the people that would be in charge of her. I knew if I did that, she would then be comfortable and enjoy herself.
Instead, I was stopped at the door, and told they would take my child right there and I was not allowed inside. I told the woman that my daughter had never been left with a babysitter before and had never attended a children's fellowship, and that she would be more comfortable if I introduced her to it first.
No dice. They took her right from me then and there, turned me away at the door, and insisted she would be ok.
HA!
They got what they deserved.
When the service was over, someone was sent to fetch me right from my seat. I was taken outside, where the woman who had so rudely snatched her from me was frantic, harried, and pushing my screaming crying baby in a baby swing.
Evidently, my kittencup was unconsolable after I was sent away, and screamed and cried the entire time, making such a disturbance they had to take her outside.
Well, no $hit. I tried to tell them what I needed to do for her to make her comfortable. The poor kid thought she had been kidnapped. They took her straight from my arms and sent me away while she was in tears.
"Make up your mind that you will not carry on that legacy, but be a part of the solution in your own family."
That's the plan especially since my wife is pregnant with our first child! I definetly plan to use wooden spoons for cooking only. And if anyone strikes my child they'll regret it.
1. It was widespread in our corps, catcup. The ones I became aware of involved mostly the marrieds...wife swappage, group parties, pretty heady stuff. (he-he)
If it was widespread in our corps, there's no way it wasn't happening all over. later I heard shadowy rumblings about 'mass flesh injections' and such when I was on staff. Interesting terminology. BTW, our doctrine and Wierwille is what provided an atmosphere that allowed these things to flourish.
2. Once I was hit on (as a married man, mind you) by two married women. When I say 'hit on', I mean thrown against the wall of the farmhouse (where I was innocently dropping off some papers) and literally attacked with their hands. I literally had to run! Isolated incident? I think not. if there was a culture of morality & purity at hq, such would be unthinkable. There had to be a reasonable expectation of success, based on past history, for such to happen so casually...
The junior corps teens were at it too. There were never enough "rovers" to watch us all. It was basicly summer camp every night. You can't put that many teens together in close quarters, unsupervised, without something happening. I'm surprised there weren't (more?) teen pregnancies. This sometomes went on in or near the presence of adults.
weird.
oh and my wife is due on the ides of March. Beware!
This issue is a very hot button with me. I don't know you at all...I see you've been registered since October 10, 2002...and the only posts of yours that I can find are from today on this thread.
I'm curious, but why would that be regarded unusual? I suspect many sign up on this forum and don't jump in right away. I mean, I can only imagine that had I (and others) undergone the weird, bizarre experience described (at the age of 7 or 12 - whichever it was) that it would not be the kind of experience one would feel immediately comfortable or compelled to express in an open forum.
Yeah, her experience sounds surrealistic, but
given the other shenanigans going on in the Way, that may have sounded too weird to be true...it was a pretty screwed-up group....nothing would surprise me anymore.
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Catcup
I, too am new to this particular thread. I spent several hours this morning looking through it. While I was never a part of any "initiation" ceremony (tongue in cheek or otherwise) that Evan describ
Georgio Jessio
I apologized and said I wasn't trying to antagonize you. Why wouldn't you believe that I mean it. Why WOULD I antagonize you? What would I do THAT for?
For the record, I never said you were a liar. I said it was graphic and over the top and the graphic nature of the post wasn't necessary. I'm trying to eat dinner and read some posts. If you say "I was gang raped" that's HORRIBLE ENOUGH. I didn't need to know about the flavor of semen. Disagree with me if you want, but don't take it for being mean or calling you a liar, which I believe you just called me. Why is it ok for you to call me a liar? Why is it ok for you to be mean to me?
Oh man I got sucked back into this post. I mean it, I have said all I can say. I told you that I would be willing to speak to you, as a fellow survivor. I meant it. read my first post again:
"Your account has far too much graphic information.
If you want to discuss this, email me. It would do you more good to talk to a fellow survivor rather than make this entire board physically ill. We've all been thru too much without spelling out the twisted details.
I appreciate your sharing, don't get me wrong..."
I never called you twisted. I said the details of a gang rape are twisted and we didn't need to know every little detail. Gang rape is a very twisted thing.
Read it again, stop thinking I attacked you and am not sincere. Good luck, keep working hard and you'll come out ok in the end. I had a really hard time post way , had PTSD, suicide, flashbacks, behavioral issues. It hit me hard. I know about being a survivor.
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lindyhopper
Waysurvivor,
I don't know, a moment of weekness, I suppose. I thought about what I wrote last night during the day today and I felt terrible about. You have my most sincere apologies. One for calling you a liar and two for being the one that started all this. Although around here, being that your story was what it was, I don't doubt that someone else would have been right behind me to try to discredit it.
As I thought it over today, I felt bad knowing that even if the parts of your story that seemed uncredible, it shouldn't have mattered to me. Whether you were telling the truth, telling partial truth and partial exagerated memories, or whether it was a complete fabrication, the possibility of me calling a true victim a liar totally outweights the possibility of your story being untrue, whether you were an exwayfer or not. SO, again I am sorry.
If you were 7 in 82, then we would be the same age. If you were there on a weekend in 84, maybe we crossed paths.
I would like to know more about the parts of your story that I thought were questionable, not to try to qualify your story, but because if true they are some of the most outrageous things I have heard about the way or its members and I would be very interested in knowing a little more. Like being put in a box with spiders, the men chasing you in black robes. Other things that I thought were a little contrary to my memory were you having your own room and there being a TV room. But at the age of seven I realise that both of our memories could be off. Well, I guess I should speak for myself.
Your interest, in creative writing, also thru me for a loop, this being your first post and it sounding so contrary to my experience. But my first post was a long descriptive one as well. So wht can I say. I fell for the "my experience being more true" trap.
Agian, regardless of whether you were in twi or not or whether your story is true or not, I am sorry for assuming.
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CoolWaters
Kewl post, lindyhopper.
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GrouchoMarxJr
waysurvivor says to me "You are a disgusting pig who has no place being here"...
Looks like we got off on the wrong foot? If all that stuff really happened, then I was certainly being insensitive. To be honest, it never entered my mind that it was true...the story was the most extreme case that I had ever heard taking place in twi and the black robes and the dunkings and boxes with spiders...well, in spite of coolwater's helpful psycoanalysis, it still seems pretty bizare to me. If I upset you, it was not my intention and I apologize for that. My earlier post was written to someone who I thought was pulling a prank.
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houseisarockin
I am genuinely sorry for what you are dealing with. But I don't understand a few things.
-->
You said raped at Camp Gunnison when you were seven possibly until you were twelve. Is this saying you were raped at CG over that period of time? Or it began at seven and continued until you were twelve in some other location? You see later on you stated...
Thus you may see my confusion on that point.
If they wanted you to stop doing something I think they would do it differently. And this may be a good time to tell you that you now have a file started at HQ. Any details you have stated are in fact being chased down for authenticity. Not to scare you but to inform you that you are not in play-land here. For your protection and consideration only, not to induce fear in you.
Why did you not say this coming in? You have been registered for nearly 2 years. I'm going to assume that you have read us to some degree because you know of the abuse stories we have spoken of here. So did you not consider it may be a good thing to just start by saying hi? You would have seen how most go about joining in here. Leading me to another aspect of this. Have you then not also observed when "those who would desire to make us appear as fools" came cruising through? You would have seen it if reading us between your registration and present date.
There is no problem in believing Temple. Nor would there be one in you if perhaps you had started this out a bit differently. Something for your consideration. And regardless of my questions of you, I am sorry for any pain you endured. That is genuine on my part.
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TheEvan
Wow.
As a new discoverer of this thread, let me say how sorry I am to all you who suffered as a parent or child.
Color me gullible because I believe you. Well, "believe" is a bit strong. How about this: I don't disbelieve you.
1. I had personal knowledge of group sex in Der Veg. not a big leap from that to the other
2. Herr Doktor, following the legacy of predators everywhere, used porn on his subjects, even publicly.
3. Porn is clearly a gateway (for those so afflicted) to pedophelia.
4. A culture that rewarded domineering bullies.
I'm wondering if the black robes memory came from a Way "inner-sanctum" initiation ceremony. Anybody every go through that? I did. Wierwille conducted it as the grand wizard. Yes, that's what he called himself. Various unidentified Corps in the black hooded robes assisted. The proceedings were ostensibly tongue-in-cheek.
But now I wonder....
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Catcup
Ev--
Do tell more.....
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sadie
Waysurvivor, please check with Steve and Patty Faye Roberts, Knoxville, Tenn...They are in the white pages...I'm sure that they would be more than happy to tell you that I am no longer associated with the way cult and that I left on my own accord.
Maybe this will change your way of believing...
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sadie
Waysurvior, I'm sorry but my name is not really Sadie it is Marguerite. They will know me by that name only....
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Catcup
I, too am new to this particular thread. I spent several hours this morning looking through it.
While I was never a part of any "initiation" ceremony (tongue in cheek or otherwise) that Evan described, had I personally known what was going on, I would have never put up with it.
And I know several men who if they had known of a father sexually abusing his child, would personally have escorted him out behind the barn and beaten him within an inch of his life before handing him over to the authorities.
TWI was an interesting mix. Depending on where your assignment was and who your leadership was, there are a variety of contradictory experiences, all of them VALID.
There is a lot of mention of leadership physically and/or sexually abusing children in their fellowship.
I am here to tell you that it also happened the other way around.
When I first moved to NW Indiana, and I did not know anyone there, I had to leave my daughter (age 3 at the time) with a believer I had never met. The next time I needed a babysitter and I was going to leave her at this woman's house, my daughter was reluctant for me to leave. She had never behaved that way before, and I was concerned. But I "trusted" the believer. How wrong I was.
When my husband brought my daughter home from the babysitter, and I questioned my little girl about how the evening went, she began crying and told me about how the woman sat and watched while her 5 year old son pushed her around all night and eventually knocked her into a table and hurt her head. When I brushed back her hair and looked, her ear was caked, CAKED with BLOOD which had also run down her neck.
I called the woman and let her know what I found, and she offered no explanation for why she allowed this to happen. She "had no idea" my daughter was hurt. She admitted she watched her son push her around, and offered no explanation for why she did not intervene. She did not even bother to check my daughter's head for injuries, or to even tell my husband that an incident had occurred when he picked her up. I let the woman have it.
I never took my daughter over there again, and she never came to my fellowship, either! She would NOT HAVE BEEN WELCOME.
My daughter was also sexually abused by the child of someone in our fellowship. Unlike the previous incident, I left my daughter with a non-Corps woman who I trusted more than anyone else in my branch. I had known her for at least two or more years, and allowed her to babysit my daughter overnight, only because I considered her a trusted friend. This woman had two children, a boy and a girl, several years older than my 6 year old.
The next morning after my daughter came home, she had a hickey on her neck! When I asked her how she got it, she was upset and embarassed, and told me that this woman's daughter had done it playing "vampire." I also learned that in that household this woman allowed her children to watch R rated movies that were inappropriate for her own age children, let alone my child.
I had considered this woman a trusted friend of mine, but I found out that even after knowing her for several years, there were still things I didn't know about how she ran her household and oversaw her children.
And as a good question-asking intrusive Way Corps overseer, I thought I knew.
So then this woman learned from me a few things she didn't know about her own kids.
I got in her face and I kicked her @$$.
Hard.
And she learned a few things. She was humiliated, sorry, and honestly made some changes in her life, and tried to make some changes with her kids.
I talked with her kids about it, too. They apologized, and everything seemd to be ok after that, but later on, her boy got in trouble several times. The Mom truly made valiant efforts at correcting behaviors, but I think the horse was out of the barn for her kids.
We continued our friendship, but I never trusted her with my daughter again.
Now more than a decade down the line, recently I ran across a photo of this woman's daughter, and I mentioned how I missed her mom. Then my daughter stood up and told me how she hated that girl. She was finally old enough to tell me that this girl had actually sexually abused her that night.
I had actually forgotten the incident till she brought it up when we were looking at the picture. And I learned far more than I knew even then about what actually occurred that night.
And I want to kick the woman's @$$ all over again,
But she IS STILL IN TWI AND SO ARE HER CHILDREN.
So, it isn't just "leadership" doing the abusing. This is a two way street and they also learn it other places than from "leadership" who did it to them.
As for TWI "condoning" beating your child senseless, of course they did not "condone" it. They condemned it loudly from the podium.
However, it doesn't take a genius to note that many many times, what TWI condemned outwardly on one hand was actually practiced privately with impunity by the other.
And yes, I remember a Rock of Ages in the 90's where Donna Dearest came before the entire ministry to "set the record straight" about how to "properly" use the "rod of correction."
But there is a strange disconnect regarding the time frame. With reports and examples common among the ministry as early as the 70's that the rod was chronically being misused, why the twenty-year wait?
In 1976 or 1977 in Altamonte Springs, FL, I witnessed Bob Moynihan smack a three year old girl on the legs for a good 45 minutes, simply because she had not said hello to me when I said hello to her.
I told Moynihan it didn't bother me-- she is just a kid-- I'm not upset she didn't speak to me. Apparently she had an "attitude" problem according to Bob, and he made me stand there while he smacked her little legs for I know at least 45 minutes until she broke down in tears and said hello to me.
THIS is the EXAMPLE that the STILL oh-so-revered REVEREND MOYNIHAN set for me as an interim Corps person as to how you handle SOMEONE ELSE'S obstinate child. You make the entire world stand still for an hour while you smack the little legs of a child and bully them into obedience for your own ego.
THIS is the man they eventually put in charge of Rome City for years.
And yes, when visiting Rome City, I remember being told proudly by the in-residence Indiana Corps (my in-laws in fact) that they were actually told to correct one another's kids even in the presence of their own parents if the parents did not do it first. That was circa late 80's I believe. Even then I thought that was weird and excessive.
The straw that broke the camel's back for my participation in TWI was when Josephine Wallace countermanded my instructions to my daughter right in front of me.
Who the hell, and I don't care WHAT "program" you are in, has the right to usurp my own authority over my child? It is for that reason I finally left this wretched cult.
And, yes,
BELIEVE THE CHILDREN!
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Catcup
I hate to put my own daughter's personal stuff up here, but you need to know it's not just the leadership that was offensive in this way.
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George Aar
Waysurvivor,
I don't doubt your memories of your experiences at Gunnison, but I do doubt their veracity. You seem to have a lot of REALLY serious issues with your time in WayWorld - as all of us can certainly understand, but, regardless of what actually happened to you there, I concur with the other posters who've suggested that seeking out a professional counselor would be far more helpful (and needful) than posting here at GS.
I find your story very reminiscent to the McMartin Preschool scandal of a few years back.
What actually went on there is still pretty vague. Memory - especially a child's - can be like that. It's impossible for those of us not directly connected to your story to be able to sort out the actual events from traumatic delusions. I wonder if you can.
Anyway, my sympathies. I hope you find the help you seek.
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Georgio Jessio
"they were actually told to correct one another's kids even in the presence of their own parents if the parents did not do it first. "
Yes! That was one of the worst parts of being there. I had 3,000 parents. And my mother had to watch other people hit me. Twisted stuff.
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Catcup
Georgio
I cannot imagine how intimidating and confusing it must have been to be a child at the Rome City campus. I am sorry for all that you went through there. You did not deserve one bit of it, and none of it was your fault.
Make up your mind that you will not carry on that legacy, but be a part of the solution in your own family.
One more RC incident...
When my daughter was just around 18 months old, our family visited Rome City for a Sunday night service. I had never left my girl with a babysitter of any sort at that time besides family, and I wanted to ease her into the idea of being left at the Children's fellowship.
So, I took her to the Children's fellowship area early and wanted to take her in the room myself, and show her around, describe what the fellowship would be like, and introduce her to the people that would be in charge of her. I knew if I did that, she would then be comfortable and enjoy herself.
Instead, I was stopped at the door, and told they would take my child right there and I was not allowed inside. I told the woman that my daughter had never been left with a babysitter before and had never attended a children's fellowship, and that she would be more comfortable if I introduced her to it first.
No dice. They took her right from me then and there, turned me away at the door, and insisted she would be ok.
HA!
They got what they deserved.
When the service was over, someone was sent to fetch me right from my seat. I was taken outside, where the woman who had so rudely snatched her from me was frantic, harried, and pushing my screaming crying baby in a baby swing.
Evidently, my kittencup was unconsolable after I was sent away, and screamed and cried the entire time, making such a disturbance they had to take her outside.
Well, no $hit. I tried to tell them what I needed to do for her to make her comfortable. The poor kid thought she had been kidnapped. They took her straight from my arms and sent me away while she was in tears.
What idiots they were at Rome City.
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Georgio Jessio
"Make up your mind that you will not carry on that legacy, but be a part of the solution in your own family."
That's the plan especially since my wife is pregnant with our first child! I definetly plan to use wooden spoons for cooking only. And if anyone strikes my child they'll regret it.
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Catcup
Congratulations Georgio!
God bless, keep, and guide you and your family.
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TheEvan
Do tell what, catcup? The inner sanctum initiation or the group sex?
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Catcup
Each and both, of course!
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Georgio Jessio
Thanks guys. I am excited and terrified.
I'll save the initiation and group sex for Saturday nights at the pub.
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excathedra
i think every new parent is excited and terrified
i have a feeling you will be GREAT
when are y'all due ? much luck and love
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TheEvan
Dang, well the group sex first....of course.
1. It was widespread in our corps, catcup. The ones I became aware of involved mostly the marrieds...wife swappage, group parties, pretty heady stuff. (he-he)
If it was widespread in our corps, there's no way it wasn't happening all over. later I heard shadowy rumblings about 'mass flesh injections' and such when I was on staff. Interesting terminology. BTW, our doctrine and Wierwille is what provided an atmosphere that allowed these things to flourish.
2. Once I was hit on (as a married man, mind you) by two married women. When I say 'hit on', I mean thrown against the wall of the farmhouse (where I was innocently dropping off some papers) and literally attacked with their hands. I literally had to run! Isolated incident? I think not. if there was a culture of morality & purity at hq, such would be unthinkable. There had to be a reasonable expectation of success, based on past history, for such to happen so casually...
I won't bore you with more.
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Georgio Jessio
The junior corps teens were at it too. There were never enough "rovers" to watch us all. It was basicly summer camp every night. You can't put that many teens together in close quarters, unsupervised, without something happening. I'm surprised there weren't (more?) teen pregnancies. This sometomes went on in or near the presence of adults.
weird.
oh and my wife is due on the ides of March. Beware!
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TheInvisibleDan
I'm curious, but why would that be regarded unusual? I suspect many sign up on this forum and don't jump in right away. I mean, I can only imagine that had I (and others) undergone the weird, bizarre experience described (at the age of 7 or 12 - whichever it was) that it would not be the kind of experience one would feel immediately comfortable or compelled to express in an open forum.
Yeah, her experience sounds surrealistic, but
given the other shenanigans going on in the Way, that may have sounded too weird to be true...it was a pretty screwed-up group....nothing would surprise me anymore.
Danny
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CoolWaters
Danny,
My next 2 sentences after the ones you have quoted are, "It does lend a sense of scam to your posts. That's not what matters to me, though."
What you quoted was a "reason" somebody gave me a long time ago for not believing my story.
I was merely trying to explain to waysurvivor one possible reason some folks were reacting to her as if she were lying.
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