I just started reading this thread today.4/2/04 WWWOOOOOWWWW. My love and support goes out to the families that were so effected by this level of deciet not to mention criminal coverup. For all those that have spoken their truth, thank you for your courage. I know how painful at times it has been.
Weither the BOT new or not,(I believe they did) they are liabe and ultimatly responcible for the continued abuse that incured. Much like the catholic church it is a prevlent tactic to denie and bury harmful factual truth.
OM after viewing your responce to what has been posted here, I gather that you are in your 50's and possibly from a german background. I know the generation that was born of the 1940's-1950's came from the experiance of harsh and silent upbring. That was acceptable behavior and treatment for raising children. I am a product of that generation.
There has been a huge up swing of folk in our generation to be on psycotic meds, have black and white thinking and into addictions.
VPW was German and had a charisma that was captivating. He employed alot of his upbring into his teachings. You could probly trace back most of his family teachings to his Idelic Patriarcle Germatic influences. Children should be seen not heard. There is a book out on this that discribes this mind set and its origins. Not to mention the lasting effects on folks like us. At present I do not remember it. I will post it on this thread.
Om... I also gather that your particapation with children is very limlited or that your hiding a possible character flaw that is harmful. You speaking your truth with no reference point other your interpretation of the Bible. There is something bigger behind the scenes here that your not saying. So with that I suspect...... That something has happened to you and you minimize the events or somthing happened to someone eles and your part ownership of it. Well that is my spin.
WC, you have been incredably tolerant on this thread and think you for you imput. You have a right to be strong in your opinion, if down right angry. You too Templelady. Lindy thanks.
The book I mentioned in the previous post is by Alf or Olf Miller, "For your on good". Shellon you made a good point that weither it is as "harmless" as calling a child stupid or "Beating" the tar out of them....Abuse is abuse". It never is acceptable and never will be no matter how gentle it may appear. {{{{{{{{PERIOD}}}}}}}}}
I was raped at Camp Gunnison when I was seven, possibly until I was twelve. My father was a member, but he and my mother were divorced. She told him not to take us there, but he did. My memories of what happened are sketchy, yet clear as far as body memories, tastes, etc. All I know is that I was somehow "chosen" because I had the palest hair. A woman told me how beautiful my hair was. We were watching television in the TV room. I was so tired, so my dad took me back to my room and left me alone, only he didn't leave for long. He came back with a man. I've blocked out what happened after that. One very visious memory I have had is of being forced onto my knees. I always remember darkness and cold concrete. I was in a room full of men. I guess you can imagine what happened next. Camp Gunnison did its best to ruin my life. I've never been able to have a normal relationship. In fact, I've had one that plummeted and died quickly. I wake up with the taste of semen in my mouth, and yet, I never knew that I knew the taste, until I saw my own description of the taste in a post written by a fellow survivor. The words were the same. I remember being told to "Quit my crying." I have flashbacks of body feelings, being touched all over and not being able to get away. My life is so changed that I have a hard time seeing men in a good light. I have a few male friends, but they instantly become rapists in my eyes when they start getting crude. I see them as victimizers of women. The thing is, I don't think that my victimization is over. They drugged me when I was there, and years later, when I dared to write about my story and publish it, I got phone calls every hour on the hour listed as "unavailable." An ex-way member who dared to talk to me was beaten up. They tried to intimidate me by pretending that they were going to run me over. They've taken my stuff, and because I tend to lose things, I would, at first, think it was just me...until my things were returned to me only days later, neatly lined up under a car seat in a newly cleaned car that had previously been devoid of any possessions. The symptoms of my abuse tend to indicate adult rape as well as child rape. Is that possible? Has anyone been drugged and raped unknowingly only to find out about it later? Can they get into your house and be so subtle as to taking things and returning them that you think you are crazy? I was at Camp Gunnison in 1982. Was anyone there at that time? Was anyone forced into a box and locked in with spiders or threatened with such, chased by men in black robes as a tool of intimidation? How about dunkings in water?
I remember being sore after visitations with my father. I have very vivid dreams that put me back there.
Because of their abuse, I will have to be on antidepressants for the rest of my life, I maintain an unhealthy weight so that I will not be attractive to men, I have panic attacks when I feel that people are too close or when they touch me. I can hardly take care of myself or pay my bills. My surrounds are practical squalor.
And yet I'm a Christian with such faith in the Lord. I know that he keeps me strong, and I feel like telling the Way to bring it on! They turned my father into a monster who could stand there and coldly watch his child being raped. I was only seven years old. There are cult books that list the Way as a cult that practices in wife-swapping and child rape, so if there is anyone out there that simply thinks badly of the Way because of a new branch or something but still thinks they are basically good, think about this story. There is an underlying faction that a lot of people don't see of the Way, but you better bet your children probably do.
And the repercussions go on into the next generation. One of my sons is a parent, the state watched him extra closely in regards to his daughter because the abused so often abuse. In his case that isn't true, but he still has been put through the wringer a couple of times by zealous Social workers who fear he might.
Whatever happened to you, and I don't doubt that something did, you have posted one of the most elaborate and creative lies on this board that I have ever read. Congratulations. How's bout putting that creativity to some good use. This board is trying to do good by telling the truth. Things that are clearly untrue, don't help us.
But I am sorry if something happened to you when you were young. Sounds like a classic case. To the T. If for some crazy reason I am wrong, which seems very unlikely, please forgive me. But this story doesn't match our bunch. A box with spiders? Men in black robes? Dunkings in water? TV room? Sounds spooky. I was one of those way kids and I was at Gunnison for a time around 84'. Things like this didn't happen. Nice try though, thank you for playing.
I was abused in TWI, sexually, physically and emotionally so I hate to doubt anyone but true 'survivors' (and I have met MANY) don't generally write details to this degree.
So if this is true or not please try to understand the boundaries of taste, what's important and what people are willing to read. Your account has far too much graphic information.
If you want to discuss this, email me. It would do you more good to talk to a fellow survivor rather than make this entire board physically ill. We've all been thru too much without spelling out the twisted details.
I appreciate your sharing, don't get me wrong...
But having said that, this type of assault in TWI is news to me. The abuse that lead to sexual attacks was usually more psychological than seeming like a Hollywood snuff film. And I know many survivors of TWI abuse.
Well, there was that one weekend when we all put on black robes...but that was because we were dunking witches that day.
Waysurvivor...You probably should check yourself into a mental institution...either that or find one of those sex web sites that will let you post your creative but lurid stories.
Waysurvivor, I can't help but believe that you are adding some sick spice to the forums today.
If this be the case, you really need some professional help far beyound this earth could possibly give. You write very satanic and with a disturbed and perverted mind.
If this is the path you have chosen in your creative writing then please allow the world to know your name in order that our children will be protected from you.
I can't believe that all of you could be so horribly mean! You call yourselves survivors? You know NOTHING about surviving. Snuff films? I've never even SEEN one. You don't think that terrorization is psychological? You don't think survivors know details? How about when you are locked into a memory which such detail that all you can do is puke? And if you have problems reading this, you shouldn't be reading Child Abuse in TWI. What the heck is wrong with you people! I thought this was a forum for survivors. Obviously, I was wrong. You think what I posted was sick? Why, because it was the truth? Of course it's sick!!!! Try living with the consequences day in and day out! Are you still so much in denial? You are the kinds of people who think that this stuff doesn't happen in your neck of the woods, right while it's happening under your noses!
And yes, I'm in therapy. I've been in therapy for years, and you people need to be in therapy. You people are probably the type of people who are stalking me, the ones who beat up a nice woman just for talking to me.
You think this kind of stuff doesn't happen in TWI? Wake up! Just the stuff you see on these boards from other "isolated" incidences should be enough to convince you. I'm horribly insulted and hurt. How could you possibly be so deranged as to think I would make something like this up? Child abuse is no joke. Sexual abuse happens! Wake up to the fact. And yes, perhaps I belong elsewhere, a place where people know how to recognize the truth, know the signs of a survivor, and realize that secrets are the foundation of TWI.
You people are the ones who are sick! That you could dare to right something so hurtful and twisted to someone who was only seeking help. I just wanted some help, but I now know that this is just some twisted sight where people come to hurt others.
In general, we have learned to be very, very skeptical here at GS. Folks have bull....ted us before. We had a whacko a few years back who faked his own death, and then posed as his own sister. Other hoaxes abound.
So, if we don't buy into your very unbelieveable story, that's part of why.
Two of the posters who responded after you posted where youngsters, and at Corps locations (one specifically said Gunnison) when you where.
Okay, fellow GSers, she said that she was at Gunnison when she was seven with her divorced father. If her Dad was in the Corps, he would have been a graduated Corps, since Family Corps started out at Rome City. 5th Family Corps or earlier. Although he maybe was't in the Corps. Either way, it should be easy to remember a single/divorced guy with a daughter on staff. Any memories anyone?
Let's slow up a bit on the accusations of Lying Okay!??!
Waysurvivor has some serious issues and I would like to throw a few points out for consideration.
1--being group raped in TWI happened (happened to my kids)
2 being forced into silence to keep secrets especially in a small child causes the child to try to block out, causes nightmares where things become exaggerated, causes fantasies where things come out differently and in children, where the line between fantasy and reality is thin to begin with, these things become False Memories.
A lot of research has been done on this kind of thing in the last few years once a memory is in your brain the brain treats it as true.
3 Not all therapists are good- leading questions, suggestive comments etc expecially in formative years can again lead to false memories.
So before we jump on the bandwagon and sat all this couldn't possibly have happened let us stop and reflect
a seven year old, raped while Daddy stood by coupled with the scenarios I have laid out--even if what she remembers is false-- to her it is true because she remembers it that way.
Scary stuff
ANd scince says you can't will false memories away or erase them
so at least let us accept the fact that while everything she says may not be true it is very true to her. And I for one, am willing to accept that this spiraling nightmare occurred because she was in fact raped at 7
He had two daughters, and as far as I know, he only took us there for a weekend. I happen to know that there are sick people who get their jollies by posting lies and leading people to believe them, but you need to realize that just because this has happened, it doesn't give you license to blantantly accuse a person of lying. Most of the people who come here are looking for help. To be called twisted and sick was so hurtful that I couldn't stop crying at work. I had to leave work because I couldn't stand being around the customers when I couldn't stop crying.
And to say that child abuse did occur in the Way and then turn around and say that my story is unbelievable? What gives you the right? What if I say that I believe you are still a member of TWI, a person who is out to make those who survived seem uncredible so that they won't be believed. If you had read anything on survivors, you would know the signs to look for, so you would not be so easily duped. How anyone could think that I'm a liar, especially after I've said what is going on with me now, is so unbelievably incredible that I have to wonder how you all think you can contribute to a "survivor" site. I'm sorry if I'm offending anyone, as I'm sure I am, but it boggles the mind.
How many other people have you alienated who were just looking for help? I'm not a suicidal person, generally, but after reading your vicious attacks on my character, I just felt like dying. Maybe you all need to be more careful in what you say. If you think someone is lying, don't respond. Is it worth the chance that you are putting a person through more victimization?
Sadie, I'm inclined to believe that you are still a member of TWI.
Georgio Jessio, I suppose that all survivors are the same, right? We all talk about things in exactly the same manner? And I suppose you have known them through every phase that they have gone through. I don't normally go into detail, as it is disturbing for me. The reason I did was to try to connect with others who had perhaps had the exact same things happen to them. Now I don't know how to take your second reply to me. Should I believe you that you aren't trying to antagonize me?
How does it feel to not be believed?
Lindyhopper, I can't understand how you can say that you don't doubt something happened, that it sounds like a classic case, and then say that my story is an "elaborate and creative lie." What kind of person can be so contradictory?
Uncle Harry, your post was in no way funny, was traumatizing (as the others were), and disgusting. Find a sex site to post my stories? Do you think I want disgusting perves getting off on what happened to me? What the hell is wrong with you. You are a disgusting pig who has no place being here.
WordWolf, oh, I see a lot of survivors here, all right. I see REAL survivors, and then I see ones who do their best to emulate the abusive people they claim to speak out against.
Sometimes, people just need to talk, they need to say the things that happened. That is what support sites are for, so it would be good if you tried to be more like one. I needed support. Instead, I was victimized. I hope you all feel real good about yourselves.
Just because I'm a creative writer doesn't mean I write lies for jollies. I'm a Christian. I do my best not to lie, and as a survivor, any person who would write such lies needs to be in jail.
I know what happened. I just wanted to know if it was something that normally happened in TWI or if it was a small faction that decided to do this for kicks. Thanks so much for your generous help. I feel sorry for your children. I hope nothing happens to them, because if they come to you for help, you'll probably just tell them that they are lying.
Thanks for your support Temple, though I feel I need to point out that these memories surfaced long before I ever sought therapy, and other people have had these memories who were involved in other cults, so unless our minds were somehow telepathically linked, I dont' see how they couldn't be true unless they really happen.
Your proof, for all who didn't believe and attacked me, is in Temple.
FYI, false memories do not include body memories, some of which I so "sickly" described. Perhaps this is also why I went into such "detail," a detail which was not very detailed, actually.
quote:I know what happened. I just wanted to know if it was something that normally happened in TWI or if it was a small faction that decided to do this for kicks.
No. It did not "normally" happen. In fact, had any of the people that I knew in TWI been made aware about such an incident, they would have resolved it immediately. With force. In such a way that the perp would not be able to repeat the crime.
I must also add information about how young children--and most people in general--"remember" traumatic activities.
waysurvivor spoke about "forced into a box and locked in with spiders or threatened with such". She also spoke of "being touched all over and not being able to get away".
To my experienced knowledge, I would surmise that being forced into a locked box of spiders is how a 7yo mind made sense of "being touched all over and not being able to get away".
waysurvivor also said, "They drugged me when I was there..." She is not the first person here to make such a statement.
waysurvivor said, "They tried to intimidate me by pretending that they were going to run me over." Both my husband and I have been stalked by twi leadership...and have received phone calls that threatened death while a black car sat in front of our apartment building. This was done after we had gone to HQ about the pedophilia being practiced on children by a BC who ran a Children's Fellowship so he could get new victims and/or do his thing. (His thing at Children's Fellowship, I have since found out, was to make child porn movies of the children who attended the fellowship.)
waysurvivor asked about being "chased by men in black robes as a tool of intimidation".
Again, this may not be an actual memory, but the only way a 7yo mind could make sense of what happened. Especially a 7yo who was around men who wore black robes and scared her. It may be that the voices around her reminded her of those men she had seen wearing black robes.
waysurvivor asked, "How about dunkings in water?"
A forced bath afterwards? A "golden shower"? Again, another way for a 7yo mind to cope.
The mind can work with only what it knows and comprehends. The mind is designed to make sense of everything. If it cannot make sense of something because it has no data to build upon, it will use the data it has. A 7yo mind will create men in black robes if that is the data it has that can be associated with the voices/faces/smells of people in a group hurting that 7yo.
The mind is also designed to protect itself. If the incoming data is too horrific, the mind will put that data in a less horrific setting. It is far less horrific for a 7yo to think she is locked in a box of spiders than to think that she is being brutally raped by her father's friends while her father watches.
The very most important thing waysurvivor said concerning this whole issue is:
"There are cult books that list the Way as a cult that practices in wife-swapping and child rape, so if there is anyone out there that simply thinks badly of the Way because of a new branch or something but still thinks they are basically good, think about this story. There is an underlying faction that a lot of people don't see of the Way, but you better bet your children probably do."
There are many participants on this board who need to grasp this reality.
All this said, it matters not if waysurvivor is a "troll" or some such unwanted participant here.
What waysurvivor has said has already been said and documented.
Doubt waysurvivor's legitimacy as a poster if you must, but it is a poor statement to doubt her story...because it's no different than the stories told here many, many times by many, many different folks. Myself included.
No. It did not "normally" happen. In fact, had any of the people that I knew in TWI been made aware about such an incident, they would have resolved it immediately. With force. In such a way that the perp would not be able to repeat the crime.
That's why your story seems so incredible.
Jim,
You registered at GSC on June 17, 2002. You have posted 497 times.
This thread was started on February 12, 2004.
I'd like to ask you to go back and read this thread from beginning to end.
Why?
Because I would like to know if, after reading this thread from beginning to end, you'd still force yourself to believe what you just posted.
I've read the thread. I know the people that I associated with. I stand by my post.
I did not say it could not have happened. I did not say that there were not child abusers in TWI. What I did say is that the people that *I* knew would never have done *or* tolerated such an act. Is that so unbelievable?
It's what you said after you talked about those you personally knew...
You know, this statement you made: "That's why your story seems so incredible."
If it were acceptable to name names of all the people who knew exactly what was going on in Alaska...because I told them repeatedly and with documentation...and purposefully hid the truth and protected the perpetrators, I'm sure you'd be shocked beyond any other shock you've known....because many of those people are considered by many here to be "upstanding christians and fine, responsible people who would never tolerate such things".
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Catcup
I, too am new to this particular thread. I spent several hours this morning looking through it. While I was never a part of any "initiation" ceremony (tongue in cheek or otherwise) that Evan describ
imbus
I just started reading this thread today.4/2/04 WWWOOOOOWWWW. My love and support goes out to the families that were so effected by this level of deciet not to mention criminal coverup. For all those that have spoken their truth, thank you for your courage. I know how painful at times it has been.
Weither the BOT new or not,(I believe they did) they are liabe and ultimatly responcible for the continued abuse that incured. Much like the catholic church it is a prevlent tactic to denie and bury harmful factual truth.
OM after viewing your responce to what has been posted here, I gather that you are in your 50's and possibly from a german background. I know the generation that was born of the 1940's-1950's came from the experiance of harsh and silent upbring. That was acceptable behavior and treatment for raising children. I am a product of that generation.
There has been a huge up swing of folk in our generation to be on psycotic meds, have black and white thinking and into addictions.
VPW was German and had a charisma that was captivating. He employed alot of his upbring into his teachings. You could probly trace back most of his family teachings to his Idelic Patriarcle Germatic influences. Children should be seen not heard. There is a book out on this that discribes this mind set and its origins. Not to mention the lasting effects on folks like us. At present I do not remember it. I will post it on this thread.
Om... I also gather that your particapation with children is very limlited or that your hiding a possible character flaw that is harmful. You speaking your truth with no reference point other your interpretation of the Bible. There is something bigger behind the scenes here that your not saying. So with that I suspect...... That something has happened to you and you minimize the events or somthing happened to someone eles and your part ownership of it. Well that is my spin.
WC, you have been incredably tolerant on this thread and think you for you imput. You have a right to be strong in your opinion, if down right angry. You too Templelady. Lindy thanks.
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imbus
The book I mentioned in the previous post is by Alf or Olf Miller, "For your on good". Shellon you made a good point that weither it is as "harmless" as calling a child stupid or "Beating" the tar out of them....Abuse is abuse". It never is acceptable and never will be no matter how gentle it may appear. {{{{{{{{PERIOD}}}}}}}}}
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waysurvivor
I was raped at Camp Gunnison when I was seven, possibly until I was twelve. My father was a member, but he and my mother were divorced. She told him not to take us there, but he did. My memories of what happened are sketchy, yet clear as far as body memories, tastes, etc. All I know is that I was somehow "chosen" because I had the palest hair. A woman told me how beautiful my hair was. We were watching television in the TV room. I was so tired, so my dad took me back to my room and left me alone, only he didn't leave for long. He came back with a man. I've blocked out what happened after that. One very visious memory I have had is of being forced onto my knees. I always remember darkness and cold concrete. I was in a room full of men. I guess you can imagine what happened next. Camp Gunnison did its best to ruin my life. I've never been able to have a normal relationship. In fact, I've had one that plummeted and died quickly. I wake up with the taste of semen in my mouth, and yet, I never knew that I knew the taste, until I saw my own description of the taste in a post written by a fellow survivor. The words were the same. I remember being told to "Quit my crying." I have flashbacks of body feelings, being touched all over and not being able to get away. My life is so changed that I have a hard time seeing men in a good light. I have a few male friends, but they instantly become rapists in my eyes when they start getting crude. I see them as victimizers of women. The thing is, I don't think that my victimization is over. They drugged me when I was there, and years later, when I dared to write about my story and publish it, I got phone calls every hour on the hour listed as "unavailable." An ex-way member who dared to talk to me was beaten up. They tried to intimidate me by pretending that they were going to run me over. They've taken my stuff, and because I tend to lose things, I would, at first, think it was just me...until my things were returned to me only days later, neatly lined up under a car seat in a newly cleaned car that had previously been devoid of any possessions. The symptoms of my abuse tend to indicate adult rape as well as child rape. Is that possible? Has anyone been drugged and raped unknowingly only to find out about it later? Can they get into your house and be so subtle as to taking things and returning them that you think you are crazy? I was at Camp Gunnison in 1982. Was anyone there at that time? Was anyone forced into a box and locked in with spiders or threatened with such, chased by men in black robes as a tool of intimidation? How about dunkings in water?
I remember being sore after visitations with my father. I have very vivid dreams that put me back there.
Because of their abuse, I will have to be on antidepressants for the rest of my life, I maintain an unhealthy weight so that I will not be attractive to men, I have panic attacks when I feel that people are too close or when they touch me. I can hardly take care of myself or pay my bills. My surrounds are practical squalor.
And yet I'm a Christian with such faith in the Lord. I know that he keeps me strong, and I feel like telling the Way to bring it on! They turned my father into a monster who could stand there and coldly watch his child being raped. I was only seven years old. There are cult books that list the Way as a cult that practices in wife-swapping and child rape, so if there is anyone out there that simply thinks badly of the Way because of a new branch or something but still thinks they are basically good, think about this story. There is an underlying faction that a lot of people don't see of the Way, but you better bet your children probably do.
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templelady
And the repercussions go on into the next generation. One of my sons is a parent, the state watched him extra closely in regards to his daughter because the abused so often abuse. In his case that isn't true, but he still has been put through the wringer a couple of times by zealous Social workers who fear he might.
Such is the legacy of TWI
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lindyhopper
Waysurvivor,
Whatever happened to you, and I don't doubt that something did, you have posted one of the most elaborate and creative lies on this board that I have ever read. Congratulations. How's bout putting that creativity to some good use. This board is trying to do good by telling the truth. Things that are clearly untrue, don't help us.
But I am sorry if something happened to you when you were young. Sounds like a classic case. To the T. If for some crazy reason I am wrong, which seems very unlikely, please forgive me. But this story doesn't match our bunch. A box with spiders? Men in black robes? Dunkings in water? TV room? Sounds spooky. I was one of those way kids and I was at Gunnison for a time around 84'. Things like this didn't happen. Nice try though, thank you for playing.
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lindyhopper
Waysurvivor,
Just saw your profile. Creative writing is one of your intersts. Go figure.
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Georgio Jessio
I was abused in TWI, sexually, physically and emotionally so I hate to doubt anyone but true 'survivors' (and I have met MANY) don't generally write details to this degree.
So if this is true or not please try to understand the boundaries of taste, what's important and what people are willing to read. Your account has far too much graphic information.
If you want to discuss this, email me. It would do you more good to talk to a fellow survivor rather than make this entire board physically ill. We've all been thru too much without spelling out the twisted details.
I appreciate your sharing, don't get me wrong...
But having said that, this type of assault in TWI is news to me. The abuse that lead to sexual attacks was usually more psychological than seeming like a Hollywood snuff film. And I know many survivors of TWI abuse.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Well, there was that one weekend when we all put on black robes...but that was because we were dunking witches that day.
Waysurvivor...You probably should check yourself into a mental institution...either that or find one of those sex web sites that will let you post your creative but lurid stories.
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WordWolf
waysurvivor,
I hope you're seeing a mental health professional.
If most of what you're saying is true, you need to be seeing one
for the next decade, at least.
If most of what you're saying is NOT true, you need to be seeing
one for the next decade, at least.
Unless you're deliberately lying,
which is more than wrong,
and does a disservice to all the REAL survivors here.
So, in conclusion,
if you're not getting professional help, get some.
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sadie
Waysurvivor, I can't help but believe that you are adding some sick spice to the forums today.
If this be the case, you really need some professional help far beyound this earth could possibly give. You write very satanic and with a disturbed and perverted mind.
If this is the path you have chosen in your creative writing then please allow the world to know your name in order that our children will be protected from you.
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waysurvivor
I can't believe that all of you could be so horribly mean! You call yourselves survivors? You know NOTHING about surviving. Snuff films? I've never even SEEN one. You don't think that terrorization is psychological? You don't think survivors know details? How about when you are locked into a memory which such detail that all you can do is puke? And if you have problems reading this, you shouldn't be reading Child Abuse in TWI. What the heck is wrong with you people! I thought this was a forum for survivors. Obviously, I was wrong. You think what I posted was sick? Why, because it was the truth? Of course it's sick!!!! Try living with the consequences day in and day out! Are you still so much in denial? You are the kinds of people who think that this stuff doesn't happen in your neck of the woods, right while it's happening under your noses!
And yes, I'm in therapy. I've been in therapy for years, and you people need to be in therapy. You people are probably the type of people who are stalking me, the ones who beat up a nice woman just for talking to me.
You think this kind of stuff doesn't happen in TWI? Wake up! Just the stuff you see on these boards from other "isolated" incidences should be enough to convince you. I'm horribly insulted and hurt. How could you possibly be so deranged as to think I would make something like this up? Child abuse is no joke. Sexual abuse happens! Wake up to the fact. And yes, perhaps I belong elsewhere, a place where people know how to recognize the truth, know the signs of a survivor, and realize that secrets are the foundation of TWI.
You people are the ones who are sick! That you could dare to right something so hurtful and twisted to someone who was only seeking help. I just wanted some help, but I now know that this is just some twisted sight where people come to hurt others.
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Oakspear
waysurvivor:
In general, we have learned to be very, very skeptical here at GS. Folks have bull....ted us before. We had a whacko a few years back who faked his own death, and then posed as his own sister. Other hoaxes abound.
So, if we don't buy into your very unbelieveable story, that's part of why.
Two of the posters who responded after you posted where youngsters, and at Corps locations (one specifically said Gunnison) when you where.
Okay, fellow GSers, she said that she was at Gunnison when she was seven with her divorced father. If her Dad was in the Corps, he would have been a graduated Corps, since Family Corps started out at Rome City. 5th Family Corps or earlier. Although he maybe was't in the Corps. Either way, it should be easy to remember a single/divorced guy with a daughter on staff. Any memories anyone?
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Georgio Jessio
waysurvivor, you misunderstood my reply. I know all about abuse, I know that horrible things happened. i was there.
But your posts could be toned down a bit. Both of your posts are over the top.
I was not being mean.
"You call yourselves survivors? You know NOTHING about surviving."
You know nothing about me.
I am not trying to antagonize you. Sorry I offended you. That's all I'm saying about this. Stay in therapy, good luck.
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templelady
Let's slow up a bit on the accusations of Lying Okay!??!
Waysurvivor has some serious issues and I would like to throw a few points out for consideration.
1--being group raped in TWI happened (happened to my kids)
2 being forced into silence to keep secrets especially in a small child causes the child to try to block out, causes nightmares where things become exaggerated, causes fantasies where things come out differently and in children, where the line between fantasy and reality is thin to begin with, these things become False Memories.
A lot of research has been done on this kind of thing in the last few years once a memory is in your brain the brain treats it as true.
3 Not all therapists are good- leading questions, suggestive comments etc expecially in formative years can again lead to false memories.
So before we jump on the bandwagon and sat all this couldn't possibly have happened let us stop and reflect
a seven year old, raped while Daddy stood by coupled with the scenarios I have laid out--even if what she remembers is false-- to her it is true because she remembers it that way.
Scary stuff
ANd scince says you can't will false memories away or erase them
so at least let us accept the fact that while everything she says may not be true it is very true to her. And I for one, am willing to accept that this spiraling nightmare occurred because she was in fact raped at 7
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waysurvivor
He had two daughters, and as far as I know, he only took us there for a weekend. I happen to know that there are sick people who get their jollies by posting lies and leading people to believe them, but you need to realize that just because this has happened, it doesn't give you license to blantantly accuse a person of lying. Most of the people who come here are looking for help. To be called twisted and sick was so hurtful that I couldn't stop crying at work. I had to leave work because I couldn't stand being around the customers when I couldn't stop crying.
And to say that child abuse did occur in the Way and then turn around and say that my story is unbelievable? What gives you the right? What if I say that I believe you are still a member of TWI, a person who is out to make those who survived seem uncredible so that they won't be believed. If you had read anything on survivors, you would know the signs to look for, so you would not be so easily duped. How anyone could think that I'm a liar, especially after I've said what is going on with me now, is so unbelievably incredible that I have to wonder how you all think you can contribute to a "survivor" site. I'm sorry if I'm offending anyone, as I'm sure I am, but it boggles the mind.
How many other people have you alienated who were just looking for help? I'm not a suicidal person, generally, but after reading your vicious attacks on my character, I just felt like dying. Maybe you all need to be more careful in what you say. If you think someone is lying, don't respond. Is it worth the chance that you are putting a person through more victimization?
Sadie, I'm inclined to believe that you are still a member of TWI.
Georgio Jessio, I suppose that all survivors are the same, right? We all talk about things in exactly the same manner? And I suppose you have known them through every phase that they have gone through. I don't normally go into detail, as it is disturbing for me. The reason I did was to try to connect with others who had perhaps had the exact same things happen to them. Now I don't know how to take your second reply to me. Should I believe you that you aren't trying to antagonize me?
How does it feel to not be believed?
Lindyhopper, I can't understand how you can say that you don't doubt something happened, that it sounds like a classic case, and then say that my story is an "elaborate and creative lie." What kind of person can be so contradictory?
Uncle Harry, your post was in no way funny, was traumatizing (as the others were), and disgusting. Find a sex site to post my stories? Do you think I want disgusting perves getting off on what happened to me? What the hell is wrong with you. You are a disgusting pig who has no place being here.
WordWolf, oh, I see a lot of survivors here, all right. I see REAL survivors, and then I see ones who do their best to emulate the abusive people they claim to speak out against.
Sometimes, people just need to talk, they need to say the things that happened. That is what support sites are for, so it would be good if you tried to be more like one. I needed support. Instead, I was victimized. I hope you all feel real good about yourselves.
Just because I'm a creative writer doesn't mean I write lies for jollies. I'm a Christian. I do my best not to lie, and as a survivor, any person who would write such lies needs to be in jail.
I know what happened. I just wanted to know if it was something that normally happened in TWI or if it was a small faction that decided to do this for kicks. Thanks so much for your generous help. I feel sorry for your children. I hope nothing happens to them, because if they come to you for help, you'll probably just tell them that they are lying.
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waysurvivor
Thanks for your support Temple, though I feel I need to point out that these memories surfaced long before I ever sought therapy, and other people have had these memories who were involved in other cults, so unless our minds were somehow telepathically linked, I dont' see how they couldn't be true unless they really happen.
Your proof, for all who didn't believe and attacked me, is in Temple.
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waysurvivor
FYI, false memories do not include body memories, some of which I so "sickly" described. Perhaps this is also why I went into such "detail," a detail which was not very detailed, actually.
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Jim
No. It did not "normally" happen. In fact, had any of the people that I knew in TWI been made aware about such an incident, they would have resolved it immediately. With force. In such a way that the perp would not be able to repeat the crime.
That's why your story seems so incredible.
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waysurvivor
Well, it happened over one weekend. It's a bit hard to stop when it happens like that, and it's hard to stop when it's being made a secret.
"Shhh, don't tell," ring a bell?
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CoolWaters
I must echo Temple Lady here.
I must also add information about how young children--and most people in general--"remember" traumatic activities.
waysurvivor spoke about "forced into a box and locked in with spiders or threatened with such". She also spoke of "being touched all over and not being able to get away".
To my experienced knowledge, I would surmise that being forced into a locked box of spiders is how a 7yo mind made sense of "being touched all over and not being able to get away".
waysurvivor also said, "They drugged me when I was there..." She is not the first person here to make such a statement.
waysurvivor said, "They tried to intimidate me by pretending that they were going to run me over." Both my husband and I have been stalked by twi leadership...and have received phone calls that threatened death while a black car sat in front of our apartment building. This was done after we had gone to HQ about the pedophilia being practiced on children by a BC who ran a Children's Fellowship so he could get new victims and/or do his thing. (His thing at Children's Fellowship, I have since found out, was to make child porn movies of the children who attended the fellowship.)
waysurvivor asked about being "chased by men in black robes as a tool of intimidation".
Again, this may not be an actual memory, but the only way a 7yo mind could make sense of what happened. Especially a 7yo who was around men who wore black robes and scared her. It may be that the voices around her reminded her of those men she had seen wearing black robes.
waysurvivor asked, "How about dunkings in water?"
A forced bath afterwards? A "golden shower"? Again, another way for a 7yo mind to cope.
The mind can work with only what it knows and comprehends. The mind is designed to make sense of everything. If it cannot make sense of something because it has no data to build upon, it will use the data it has. A 7yo mind will create men in black robes if that is the data it has that can be associated with the voices/faces/smells of people in a group hurting that 7yo.
The mind is also designed to protect itself. If the incoming data is too horrific, the mind will put that data in a less horrific setting. It is far less horrific for a 7yo to think she is locked in a box of spiders than to think that she is being brutally raped by her father's friends while her father watches.
The very most important thing waysurvivor said concerning this whole issue is:
"There are cult books that list the Way as a cult that practices in wife-swapping and child rape, so if there is anyone out there that simply thinks badly of the Way because of a new branch or something but still thinks they are basically good, think about this story. There is an underlying faction that a lot of people don't see of the Way, but you better bet your children probably do."
There are many participants on this board who need to grasp this reality.
All this said, it matters not if waysurvivor is a "troll" or some such unwanted participant here.
What waysurvivor has said has already been said and documented.
Doubt waysurvivor's legitimacy as a poster if you must, but it is a poor statement to doubt her story...because it's no different than the stories told here many, many times by many, many different folks. Myself included.
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CoolWaters
Jim,
You registered at GSC on June 17, 2002. You have posted 497 times.
This thread was started on February 12, 2004.
I'd like to ask you to go back and read this thread from beginning to end.
Why?
Because I would like to know if, after reading this thread from beginning to end, you'd still force yourself to believe what you just posted.
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waysurvivor
Thank you CoolWaters. God bless you! Thank you, thank you, thank you!
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Jim
Cool,
I've read the thread. I know the people that I associated with. I stand by my post.
I did not say it could not have happened. I did not say that there were not child abusers in TWI. What I did say is that the people that *I* knew would never have done *or* tolerated such an act. Is that so unbelievable?
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CoolWaters
Jim,
It's what you said after you talked about those you personally knew...
You know, this statement you made: "That's why your story seems so incredible."
If it were acceptable to name names of all the people who knew exactly what was going on in Alaska...because I told them repeatedly and with documentation...and purposefully hid the truth and protected the perpetrators, I'm sure you'd be shocked beyond any other shock you've known....because many of those people are considered by many here to be "upstanding christians and fine, responsible people who would never tolerate such things".
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