That's so sad, Potato. I stopped going to fellowship shortly before Drty Dzn did. He told me some things that were happening, and once he said, "I'm suppose to make you come to fellowship, as head of the house." He rolled his eyes, and we chuckled, and the subject was dropped. I wonder if he was told to beat me into submission, or if it was implied, or what. I'll ask him this evening.
My daughter once said she felt degraded to be hit with the wooden spoon. She said since spoons were used for cooking, she felt like nothing more than a bowl of oatmeal.
When my son was around four, he was playing with another older boy, around 8 years old, from fellowship, while his mother and I talked. I don't remember what happened, but my son made the other boy angry, so the boy hit my son with a small elastic cord. Just once. My son came screaming to me, and when I asked what happened, the older boy told me. I said to the boy, "If he ever makes you angry again, tell me instead of hitting him." That should have been the end of it. But the boy's mother took the cord, and whipped her son with it several times, and demanded he apologise. He did, but you should have seen the look of rage on his face. It was horrible. The saddest thing is the boy's mother wasn't some monster. She was a good woman who was just trying to do the right thing.
I don't think anyone ever said it was the official policy of TWI for parents to beat the he11 out of their children for the slightest infraction of the rules and regs that owned their lives. No one is going to teach that in a TWI class or state that on a STS tape. It would make them liable for abuse that happened as a result of their teaching. However, the statement I made about the wooden spoons at RC in 1993 is true. I got in trouble many times for not having a spoon in my purse or my pocket.
And when we left, we went to a city north of Seattle to be in the fellowship of a couple we had known off and on for years, who had four children who listened attentively, remembered accurately, and obeyed without question, the first time every time, just like we were supposed to be teaching our son. We thought they could help us. They beat the .... out of the children for the slightest reason. The dad liked to have the two older boys bend over in front of him and then kick them in the buttocks sending them flying across the room. The mom, thought by many to be the living epitomization of Prov. 31:10-31, beat the crap out of a two year old who wouldn't eat freshly steamed spinach.
A WOW couple from our twig in NC were told of their 4-5 year old daughter to use a spoon and if that doesn't work, use a belt, and if that doesn't work, use a 2 x 4. They used Ritalin instead and the girl was just fine. Oh, who said that? M*****l F**t, the trunk/WOW coordinator at that time. (They were in Lima, OH). Did he put it in writing? Of course not.
The Washington guy suggested to us we take our son, about 12 at the time, up into the North Cascades and take turns hitting him with a 2 x 4 until he knew that if he did not LRO (listen remember obey) he would be taken back up there and just die. The Man of God for that city for that day and for that time and for that hour, deeply regretted to us that he could not order the men of God of that city to take our son out and stone him with stones that he die.
So, no, it was not taught from the seat of all authority and power, the MOGFODAT, for official consumption, but it was taught that children were obey the first time every time, quickly and efficiently, no questions asked. And parents were to do WHATEVER it took to make them obey. That often included vicious corporal punishment.
And my hat's off to you who faced off with these folks. We were already in trouble for getting tossed from the WC and my diabetes. But we didn't use the 2 x 4. We didn't use corporal punishment all that much. Of course, he was bigger than I was at age 12, so he just knocked me on my anatomy and went his merry way.
That is chilling WG. Truly horribly chilling to have a minister, a spiritual advisor requiring this of parents.
Thank God you didn`t listen. I wonder how many did. Poor kiddoes.
You know, Howard, I agree, VPW perhaps never taught publicly to beat your children.
He was however heard repeatedly to recomend the *Hunt close* book for training children.
He said that is you could train a dog....yadda yadda...made great sense to me at the time, but then I wasn`t a parent.
I have read a record where VP was seen visciously beating one of his dogs...the dog was cowering and crying pitiously, and yet the beating continued....
He was quoted to have said something along the lines again that the dog would never disobey again.....
He advocated training the kids like dogs...it isn`t hard to understand why with examples such as those ...thar punishment was to be meted out untill the kiddo was whimpering and cowering but obedient.
I don't know about earlier decades, but in the nineties, Leaders were more than spiritual advisors. Obedience to leaders was the KEY to prosperingin the Prevailing Household. They stood in the gap and whatnot. Obeying them was obeying God, this was how God set it up, ranking authority up to the MOG. So your Household Fellowship Coord, if so inclined, could move right on in to your life and become the new Head of Your household--with the blessing of his higher leadership. Child rearing, marriage, sex life, finances--he could have a nose in all of that.
Your only recourse was if you had a high ranking friend or relative who could knock down your overbearing leader. Or you could leave the One True Household Remnant of God Almighty and turn your back On Him...
Bramble, I definitely remember, having received the SNS tapes for a while even back in Ohio, the tape where LCM portentously announced:
"It is impossible to obey God without first obeying your leadership!"
If I didn't know before he was extremely wrong, and totally insane, I sure did then. I wrote and canceled our subscription to tapes and the magazine the next day. (Couldn't bear to call the jerks).
What was it Peter and the other apostles said? "We ought to obey God rather than men."
A WOW couple from our twig in NC were told of their 4-5 year old daughter to use a spoon and if that doesn't work, use a belt, and if that doesn't work, use a 2 x 4. They used Ritalin instead and the girl was just fine. Oh, who said that? M*****l F**t, the trunk/WOW coordinator at that time. (They were in Lima, OH). Did he put it in writing? Of course not.
wow WG, that is absolutely sickening. M F@rt should be in jail... or better yet, all the children he advised be beaten with 2x4s should get to beat him with same until he repents.
I was rough on my kids sometimes because I thought I was doing the right thing, because that's what the FCs said to do because my kids were too energetic. my son had a lot of pent up anger as well, and was well on his way to becoming a bully just like his dad.
"It is impossible to obey God without first obeying your leadership!"
I remember that statement very well. that was the beginning of the almost-ending of my life by slow corruption and theft of my soul by the wicked. I was terrified to go against leaders or my ex-husband.
I look at couples who survived together because they kept leadership out of their marriages and eventually left twi together and it gives me great hope that true love between husband and wife can exist. I'm very happy for the couples that got out before twi destroyed their marriages so I can believe I have something to look forward to.
This is off topic but the *It is impossible to obey God without first obeying leadership* and a *suggestion was tantamount to an order* were also the lines used to hound women into unwanted abortions as well.
It was a cruel lie to manipulate people into doing that which went against their nature. Whether beating children, or aborting them.
It also gave bullies full reign to inflict their cruel abuse on all without having to face any consequences for their inexcusable behavior.
I think that this was one of the most visciously evil of doctrines that opened the door to exploitation on so many many levels.
In many ways it was just as hard on the corps adults. We maybe didn't get the physical abuse but mental abuse can be just as bad. How about this. one time I had two Way Corps yell at me for three hours at in front of my house with my wife and kids watching because I told them I didn't understand everything about LCMs bonehead decision to drop all the "old" VWP Corps in our area. Those b'''''s can rot in hell.
I was rough on my kids sometimes because I thought I was doing the right thing, because that's what the FCs said to do because my kids were too energetic. my son had a lot of pent up anger as well, and was well on his way to becoming a bully just like his dad.
"It is impossible to obey God without first obeying your leadership!"
I remember that statement very well. that was the beginning of the almost-ending of my life by slow corruption and theft of my soul by the wicked. I was terrified to go against leaders or my ex-husband.
Man this stuff gets me.
I think back to our days in residence and remember the clear stress my parents were under. I think it was a rough time for them. Other parents were loosing it on me and other kids. Others, while not hitting kids, lost it screaming and yelling at kids..out of control. Don't get me wrong the place wasn't a constant beating or anything. My point is, as Polar Bear stated, that it was clearly a stressful time for adults. That in turn had an effect on the children.
As a parent now, I know how a stressful day affects your dealings with your children. Of course, I also know that stress isn't unique to TWI. Anyone who has gone back to college after having a child knows that it is not easy. The difference is the indoctrination. Being told to "train" your kid the way you do a dog" and "spare the rod.." yadda yadda from your "overseers" while under the stress of an intense lifestyle is a combination for those with marginal control to go off the deep end.
Believe me I know. I am a mellow person, very easy going. My kids can push my buttons though. As any parent knows, it's the hardest job you'll ever have as well as the most rewarding. We need as much help as we can get.
I was lucky to have desent parents. Although, what ticks me off is how one of the major areas that TWI still has a foot in my life is in parenting. Well, in my head concerning parenting. I'm a stay at home dad, the furthest thing from a twi parent. But, the anger that I saw towards children and those that hit and hurt me as a child have a lasting impact. I was well versed in twi doctrine in relation to child rearing through experience and teaching during my young adult years. So good and bad many things have stuck.
I have heard the "train your child" line in very recent years, since I've left. I see the paralelles. Sure, I discipline my boys when needed (not through hitting though, I flick occasionally my 3 year old to get his attention) and yes I reward them when they are good too. You do the same with an animal, but I refuse to call what I do "training." I teach my boys. I raise them. Most importantly I take care of them. They are not dogs, and I don't want them to react to me the way a dog would it's master. Whether we intend to or not, we teach our kids how to be humans, a dog won't do that. You hit your child and you teach him to hit. You loose your temper with your kid and you teach them how to deal with tough situations. It is very apparent to me when my boys are playing with other kids, which children get hit and which ones don't, which are disciplined at all and which ones are not.
Rambling a little here, but what I was getting at is that even though I do my best to raise my kids the best I can, there is twi in me somewhere. Urges to loose it, wanting to smack the crap out of them, but controling myself. Like I said, I know it is a hard job and that all parents probably feel like that at times, but I don't think wanting to hit a kid is natural, it is learned. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so. This is why abuse is a cycle that takes a strong will to break. In my case, I have a fairly mild history in this regard, it is still there though.
If you factor in that parents were told that the children were a direct reflection of their spirituality.
That if their children misbehaved in some manner, the parents themselves and most particularly the father were branded as spiritually weak in some area.
An unruly kid could destroy any respect or credibility one might have. An unruly child could forever brand you as *spiritually suspicious*
Parents of unruly children could be declared posessed and thrown out of the ministry, be seperated from God`s ability to protect them.
Parents were even told that the whole family could die if they left the protection of the house hold.
That was the reason that parents, as unwilling as they were felt st times compelled to allow/inflict the abuse.
It wasn`t because they liked it, but because it was presented as the only alternative to death and destruction not only for the child themselves but the entire families.
That is why you hear of such extreme circumstances of parents throwing teens out on the streets.
*It is impossible to obey God without first obeying leadership* and a *suggestion was tantamount to an order* were also the lines used to hound women into unwanted abortions as well.
And little wonder: Both of those cute harmless little sayings came from the Original MOGFART™ hisself.
The way I am reading HCW's post is not that he condones abuse.
There are crazy people everywhere. There are crazy abusive Lutherans or Catholics. So, because a person with abusive tendencies became a leader and dragged his personal "abuse problems" along with him -- we should be able to pick through the PERSON who went crazy and the organization. This is a fair and good point.
HE is saying he worked there and did not see a policy.
BUT yes, they had many unwritten policies -- like friggin adultery or servicing a MOG being okay. So I get Minicorps as well.
And because they drilled us with obeying leadership and following their examples -- an abusive crazy foot would be mimicked and followed as "living policy" because all the "other" teachings supported following the leader -- be he a maniac or not
"There was never anything about TWI, the organization or corporation which sanctioned child abuse"
Well of course there wasn't! Can you name any group of any kind that would openly have a "pro abuse" policy?
But the fact is, adults, including non parents, had spoons and used them at their discretion. Kids were paranoid about making stakes in the presence of certain adults because they were ABUSERS. Greg B was an ABUSER. Many people were but they could cover their own arses by quoting scripture and policy.
There may not have been a policy to abuse, but what do you call a thousand armed adults (including non parents) with permission to wack people's kids with a spoon?
It's un sanctioned abuse , disguised as biblical discipline.
I find it interesting VP saw children as no more than an animal - a dog.
A man who has no mercy on his beast has no heart - proverbs (paraphased becasue I don't have my bible with me).
VP had no heart. Seeing people as things to be used, equating children with animals, women are only good for sex (deep misogony) and then to be discarded after he vanquishes them and goes off on the hunt after the next conquest, what you see is a sociopathic personality.
The fact VP had no problem beating animals, advising the same for kids - shows a sick dominant will - a huge ego, that his will must be obeyed no matter what.
Agreed Sunesis. Was it him or LCM in the corpes who were reported to have taught that in an invasion/end of the world situation...
That if it came down to you or your children dying, to sacrafice them because you held the word and the word must live on.
You could always make more kids later...but somebody had to be alive to teach the word....
That to me is an indication of the lack of value placed on kiddoes.... (read sick)
I know that kids were viewed as a hinderance to moving the word. They were also conduits for allowing devel spirits into a family if not carefully monitered.
"A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel."
(NASB)
"A righteous man has regard for the life of his animal, but even the compassion of the wicked is cruel."
(NIV)
"A righteous man cares for the needs of his animal, but the kindest acts of the wicked are cruel."
(The Message)
"Good people are good to their animals; the "good-hearted" bad people kick and abuse them."
(NLT)
"The godly care for their animals, but the wicked are always cruel."
VP had no heart. Seeing people as things to be used, equating children with animals, women are only good for sex (deep misogyny) and then to be discarded after he vanquishes them and goes off on the hunt after the next conquest, what you see is a sociopathic personality.
The fact VP had no problem beating animals, advising the same for kids - shows a sick dominant will - a huge ego, that his will must be obeyed no matter what.
Nicely put.
Agreed Sunesis. Was it him or LCM in the corpes who were reported to have taught that in an invasion/end of the world situation...
That if it came down to you or your children dying, to sacrafice them because you held the word and the word must live on.
You could always make more kids later...but somebody had to be alive to teach the word....
That to me is an indication of the lack of value placed on kiddoes.... (read sick)
I know that kids were viewed as a hinderance to moving the word. They were also conduits for allowing devel spirits into a family if not carefully monitered.
If it was from EITHER, it was from BOTH.
If it was from lcm, he was taught it by vpw. He certainly didn't get it growing up as a Baptist.
And he had no imagination for himself until he ascended the throne.
If it was from vpw, then he taught it to lcm, who passed it along.
Hey, since the CORPS were DISPOSABLE to vpw-which he taught to lcm-
of course KIDS were disposable too-after all, they took work to maintain/raise.
There were lots of unwritten "policies" while one was in TWI. This is just one more of 'em. And, again, like everything else TWI-related, the severity of the problem depended on the area and leadership one was exposed to.
And, by the way, my Vixen has several AKC competition titles (two hunting titles) and I've not once ever, EVER laid a hand on her nor yelled at her. We are partners and she gets ONLY positive reinforcement and lots of it.
We lived in SC when we adopted our son, who was 8 at the time. We then lived in NC for three years, then to FWC for three months, and then on to the fiasco in WA. While in WA, we were soundly reproved by our illustrious BC for having adopted, because LCM had stated that "if you could not conceive children of your own, you should focus your energies in other directions". I never heard him say that. I also knew of a FWC grad couple who adopted a baby girl, with help from B*** Gr****. We were told that our son, who admittedly had a lot of problems, still does, was "a mad dog, and you don't keep a mad dog in your house, you get rid of it, put it down." The guy who kicked his boys told us that if any one of his four children intefered in the slightest with his relationship with God he would happily kick that kid down the driveway into the street, walk back into his house and never look back, and forget that child ever existed.
Gee, you know what? My son is a still a mess, but I STILL love hiim. And, funnier thing yet, my relationship with God is just fine, in fact much better since I no longer have blithering idiots like V*** R around to give me bad, wicked, hard-hearted advice. TWI in the 90's busily drove a wedge between God and His people every chance they got. My only regret is that we didn't leave long before we actually did.
I would think a lot of children raised in this TWI atmosphere would have major issues with trust. If you can't trust mommie and daddy to love you and protect you no matter what, who's left? God? Oh heck no, He doesn't love you unless TWI says He can!
WG, just a few years ago the Moynihans told a couple here in FL that they would NOT help, support or otherwise tolerate them if they adopted an "older" child. They fell in love with a 6 year old little girl (I think she was 6) and asked for Moynihan's blessing on the adoption. Basically Bob told them TWI would turn their back on them if they went through with the adoption.
He said that older children who are up for adoption are most likely devil spirit possessed given the background and history they typically come from. The couple adopted the little girl and she's the absolute apple of their eye and they've had no problems whatsoever that I know of.
I don't know how TWI children can possibly grow up with healthy self-esteem and mental stability knowing that the love of their parents is based on their performance and behavior. :unsure: It's really sad to think about.
I know that I've screwed up royally and even hurt my parents terribly (while I was in TWI especially), but I've never once doubted how much they love me and what lengths they would go to in order to protect, care for and to keep me in their lives. TWI kids, for the most part don't have that luxury. If their own "earthly" parents are that demanding, how much more demanding must they think God is? :blink:
so basicaly twi has litterally put the fear of the lord in them gosh if mommy and daddy beat us like this what will god do? poor kids it is abuse of the worst kind. i spit on twi"s policies
When I was in Texas I was talking to Tonto and I made a statement to the effect of " It's not that I disagree with everything that TWI taught , it is just the price I had to pay for the knowledge was way way too high"
The price I paid was three severely abused children whose adult lives are a wreak, and the realization that no matter what I do or say I can never restore that which is irretrievably broken, or ever realistically have any kind of a none adversarial relationship with any of them
Is a good portion of that my fault--you bet
But I have to ask myself - "if not for TWI and the environment and teachings of same--would things have ever gotten to the extremes that they did?"
And the answer is NO-- I Know what kind of person I was before TWI and I know the kind of person I became after I left TWI--I re found the self that was before TWI.
TWI was a Physical and Mental Torture chamber that turned parents from their children instead of towards them. That in itself should be warning enough For the Bible says "turn the hearts of the fathers toward their children" What TWI taught was in direct contradiction to this--and apparently things haven;t changed all that much
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Catcup
I, too am new to this particular thread. I spent several hours this morning looking through it. While I was never a part of any "initiation" ceremony (tongue in cheek or otherwise) that Evan describ
VeganXTC
That's so sad, Potato. I stopped going to fellowship shortly before Drty Dzn did. He told me some things that were happening, and once he said, "I'm suppose to make you come to fellowship, as head of the house." He rolled his eyes, and we chuckled, and the subject was dropped. I wonder if he was told to beat me into submission, or if it was implied, or what. I'll ask him this evening.
My daughter once said she felt degraded to be hit with the wooden spoon. She said since spoons were used for cooking, she felt like nothing more than a bowl of oatmeal.
When my son was around four, he was playing with another older boy, around 8 years old, from fellowship, while his mother and I talked. I don't remember what happened, but my son made the other boy angry, so the boy hit my son with a small elastic cord. Just once. My son came screaming to me, and when I asked what happened, the older boy told me. I said to the boy, "If he ever makes you angry again, tell me instead of hitting him." That should have been the end of it. But the boy's mother took the cord, and whipped her son with it several times, and demanded he apologise. He did, but you should have seen the look of rage on his face. It was horrible. The saddest thing is the boy's mother wasn't some monster. She was a good woman who was just trying to do the right thing.
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Watered Garden
I don't think anyone ever said it was the official policy of TWI for parents to beat the he11 out of their children for the slightest infraction of the rules and regs that owned their lives. No one is going to teach that in a TWI class or state that on a STS tape. It would make them liable for abuse that happened as a result of their teaching. However, the statement I made about the wooden spoons at RC in 1993 is true. I got in trouble many times for not having a spoon in my purse or my pocket.
And when we left, we went to a city north of Seattle to be in the fellowship of a couple we had known off and on for years, who had four children who listened attentively, remembered accurately, and obeyed without question, the first time every time, just like we were supposed to be teaching our son. We thought they could help us. They beat the .... out of the children for the slightest reason. The dad liked to have the two older boys bend over in front of him and then kick them in the buttocks sending them flying across the room. The mom, thought by many to be the living epitomization of Prov. 31:10-31, beat the crap out of a two year old who wouldn't eat freshly steamed spinach.
A WOW couple from our twig in NC were told of their 4-5 year old daughter to use a spoon and if that doesn't work, use a belt, and if that doesn't work, use a 2 x 4. They used Ritalin instead and the girl was just fine. Oh, who said that? M*****l F**t, the trunk/WOW coordinator at that time. (They were in Lima, OH). Did he put it in writing? Of course not.
The Washington guy suggested to us we take our son, about 12 at the time, up into the North Cascades and take turns hitting him with a 2 x 4 until he knew that if he did not LRO (listen remember obey) he would be taken back up there and just die. The Man of God for that city for that day and for that time and for that hour, deeply regretted to us that he could not order the men of God of that city to take our son out and stone him with stones that he die.
So, no, it was not taught from the seat of all authority and power, the MOGFODAT, for official consumption, but it was taught that children were obey the first time every time, quickly and efficiently, no questions asked. And parents were to do WHATEVER it took to make them obey. That often included vicious corporal punishment.
And my hat's off to you who faced off with these folks. We were already in trouble for getting tossed from the WC and my diabetes. But we didn't use the 2 x 4. We didn't use corporal punishment all that much. Of course, he was bigger than I was at age 12, so he just knocked me on my anatomy and went his merry way.
WG
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rascal
That is chilling WG. Truly horribly chilling to have a minister, a spiritual advisor requiring this of parents.
Thank God you didn`t listen. I wonder how many did. Poor kiddoes.
You know, Howard, I agree, VPW perhaps never taught publicly to beat your children.
He was however heard repeatedly to recomend the *Hunt close* book for training children.
He said that is you could train a dog....yadda yadda...made great sense to me at the time, but then I wasn`t a parent.
I have read a record where VP was seen visciously beating one of his dogs...the dog was cowering and crying pitiously, and yet the beating continued....
He was quoted to have said something along the lines again that the dog would never disobey again.....
He advocated training the kids like dogs...it isn`t hard to understand why with examples such as those ...thar punishment was to be meted out untill the kiddo was whimpering and cowering but obedient.
I think that it is all just plain sick now.
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Bramble
I don't know about earlier decades, but in the nineties, Leaders were more than spiritual advisors. Obedience to leaders was the KEY to prosperingin the Prevailing Household. They stood in the gap and whatnot. Obeying them was obeying God, this was how God set it up, ranking authority up to the MOG. So your Household Fellowship Coord, if so inclined, could move right on in to your life and become the new Head of Your household--with the blessing of his higher leadership. Child rearing, marriage, sex life, finances--he could have a nose in all of that.
Your only recourse was if you had a high ranking friend or relative who could knock down your overbearing leader. Or you could leave the One True Household Remnant of God Almighty and turn your back On Him...
Obey obey obey, gag.
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Suda
Also heard from LC and others, if you can train a dog, you can train a wife. That was always sickening to me.
Suda
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Watered Garden
Bramble, I definitely remember, having received the SNS tapes for a while even back in Ohio, the tape where LCM portentously announced:
"It is impossible to obey God without first obeying your leadership!"
If I didn't know before he was extremely wrong, and totally insane, I sure did then. I wrote and canceled our subscription to tapes and the magazine the next day. (Couldn't bear to call the jerks).
What was it Peter and the other apostles said? "We ought to obey God rather than men."
Of course LCM'd been wrong before......
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potato
wow WG, that is absolutely sickening. M F@rt should be in jail... or better yet, all the children he advised be beaten with 2x4s should get to beat him with same until he repents.
I was rough on my kids sometimes because I thought I was doing the right thing, because that's what the FCs said to do because my kids were too energetic. my son had a lot of pent up anger as well, and was well on his way to becoming a bully just like his dad.
"It is impossible to obey God without first obeying your leadership!"
I remember that statement very well. that was the beginning of the almost-ending of my life by slow corruption and theft of my soul by the wicked. I was terrified to go against leaders or my ex-husband.
I look at couples who survived together because they kept leadership out of their marriages and eventually left twi together and it gives me great hope that true love between husband and wife can exist. I'm very happy for the couples that got out before twi destroyed their marriages so I can believe I have something to look forward to.
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rascal
This is off topic but the *It is impossible to obey God without first obeying leadership* and a *suggestion was tantamount to an order* were also the lines used to hound women into unwanted abortions as well.
It was a cruel lie to manipulate people into doing that which went against their nature. Whether beating children, or aborting them.
It also gave bullies full reign to inflict their cruel abuse on all without having to face any consequences for their inexcusable behavior.
I think that this was one of the most visciously evil of doctrines that opened the door to exploitation on so many many levels.
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rascal
I started a new topic so as to not derail this important one.
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lindyhopper
Man this stuff gets me.
I think back to our days in residence and remember the clear stress my parents were under. I think it was a rough time for them. Other parents were loosing it on me and other kids. Others, while not hitting kids, lost it screaming and yelling at kids..out of control. Don't get me wrong the place wasn't a constant beating or anything. My point is, as Polar Bear stated, that it was clearly a stressful time for adults. That in turn had an effect on the children.
As a parent now, I know how a stressful day affects your dealings with your children. Of course, I also know that stress isn't unique to TWI. Anyone who has gone back to college after having a child knows that it is not easy. The difference is the indoctrination. Being told to "train" your kid the way you do a dog" and "spare the rod.." yadda yadda from your "overseers" while under the stress of an intense lifestyle is a combination for those with marginal control to go off the deep end.
Believe me I know. I am a mellow person, very easy going. My kids can push my buttons though. As any parent knows, it's the hardest job you'll ever have as well as the most rewarding. We need as much help as we can get.
I was lucky to have desent parents. Although, what ticks me off is how one of the major areas that TWI still has a foot in my life is in parenting. Well, in my head concerning parenting. I'm a stay at home dad, the furthest thing from a twi parent.
But, the anger that I saw towards children and those that hit and hurt me as a child have a lasting impact. I was well versed in twi doctrine in relation to child rearing through experience and teaching during my young adult years. So good and bad many things have stuck.
I have heard the "train your child" line in very recent years, since I've left. I see the paralelles. Sure, I discipline my boys when needed (not through hitting though, I flick occasionally my 3 year old to get his attention) and yes I reward them when they are good too. You do the same with an animal, but I refuse to call what I do "training." I teach my boys. I raise them. Most importantly I take care of them. They are not dogs, and I don't want them to react to me the way a dog would it's master. Whether we intend to or not, we teach our kids how to be humans, a dog won't do that. You hit your child and you teach him to hit. You loose your temper with your kid and you teach them how to deal with tough situations. It is very apparent to me when my boys are playing with other kids, which children get hit and which ones don't, which are disciplined at all and which ones are not.
Rambling a little here, but what I was getting at is that even though I do my best to raise my kids the best I can, there is twi in me somewhere. Urges to loose it, wanting to smack the crap out of them, but controling myself. Like I said, I know it is a hard job and that all parents probably feel like that at times, but I don't think wanting to hit a kid is natural, it is learned. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so. This is why abuse is a cycle that takes a strong will to break. In my case, I have a fairly mild history in this regard, it is still there though.
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rascal
Amen Lindy.
If you factor in that parents were told that the children were a direct reflection of their spirituality.
That if their children misbehaved in some manner, the parents themselves and most particularly the father were branded as spiritually weak in some area.
An unruly kid could destroy any respect or credibility one might have. An unruly child could forever brand you as *spiritually suspicious*
Parents of unruly children could be declared posessed and thrown out of the ministry, be seperated from God`s ability to protect them.
Parents were even told that the whole family could die if they left the protection of the house hold.
That was the reason that parents, as unwilling as they were felt st times compelled to allow/inflict the abuse.
It wasn`t because they liked it, but because it was presented as the only alternative to death and destruction not only for the child themselves but the entire families.
That is why you hear of such extreme circumstances of parents throwing teens out on the streets.
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TheEvan
And little wonder: Both of those cute harmless little sayings came from the Original MOGFART™ hisself.
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Dot Matrix
The way I am reading HCW's post is not that he condones abuse.
There are crazy people everywhere. There are crazy abusive Lutherans or Catholics. So, because a person with abusive tendencies became a leader and dragged his personal "abuse problems" along with him -- we should be able to pick through the PERSON who went crazy and the organization. This is a fair and good point.
HE is saying he worked there and did not see a policy.
BUT yes, they had many unwritten policies -- like friggin adultery or servicing a MOG being okay. So I get Minicorps as well.
And because they drilled us with obeying leadership and following their examples -- an abusive crazy foot would be mimicked and followed as "living policy" because all the "other" teachings supported following the leader -- be he a maniac or not
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Georgio Jessio
"There was never anything about TWI, the organization or corporation which sanctioned child abuse"
Well of course there wasn't! Can you name any group of any kind that would openly have a "pro abuse" policy?
But the fact is, adults, including non parents, had spoons and used them at their discretion. Kids were paranoid about making stakes in the presence of certain adults because they were ABUSERS. Greg B was an ABUSER. Many people were but they could cover their own arses by quoting scripture and policy.
There may not have been a policy to abuse, but what do you call a thousand armed adults (including non parents) with permission to wack people's kids with a spoon?
It's un sanctioned abuse , disguised as biblical discipline.
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Sunesis
I find it interesting VP saw children as no more than an animal - a dog.
A man who has no mercy on his beast has no heart - proverbs (paraphased becasue I don't have my bible with me).
VP had no heart. Seeing people as things to be used, equating children with animals, women are only good for sex (deep misogony) and then to be discarded after he vanquishes them and goes off on the hunt after the next conquest, what you see is a sociopathic personality.
The fact VP had no problem beating animals, advising the same for kids - shows a sick dominant will - a huge ego, that his will must be obeyed no matter what.
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rascal
Agreed Sunesis. Was it him or LCM in the corpes who were reported to have taught that in an invasion/end of the world situation...
That if it came down to you or your children dying, to sacrafice them because you held the word and the word must live on.
You could always make more kids later...but somebody had to be alive to teach the word....
That to me is an indication of the lack of value placed on kiddoes.... (read sick)
I know that kids were viewed as a hinderance to moving the word. They were also conduits for allowing devel spirits into a family if not carefully monitered.
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WordWolf
One visit to http://www.biblegateway.com later, I found this:
(KJV) Proverbs 12:10.
"A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel."
(NASB)
"A righteous man has regard for the life of his animal, but even the compassion of the wicked is cruel."
(NIV)
"A righteous man cares for the needs of his animal, but the kindest acts of the wicked are cruel."
(The Message)
"Good people are good to their animals; the "good-hearted" bad people kick and abuse them."
(NLT)
"The godly care for their animals, but the wicked are always cruel."
Nicely put.
If it was from EITHER, it was from BOTH.
If it was from lcm, he was taught it by vpw. He certainly didn't get it growing up as a Baptist.
And he had no imagination for himself until he ascended the throne.
If it was from vpw, then he taught it to lcm, who passed it along.
Hey, since the CORPS were DISPOSABLE to vpw-which he taught to lcm-
of course KIDS were disposable too-after all, they took work to maintain/raise.
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Belle
There were lots of unwritten "policies" while one was in TWI. This is just one more of 'em. And, again, like everything else TWI-related, the severity of the problem depended on the area and leadership one was exposed to.
And, by the way, my Vixen has several AKC competition titles (two hunting titles) and I've not once ever, EVER laid a hand on her nor yelled at her. We are partners and she gets ONLY positive reinforcement and lots of it.
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Watered Garden
We lived in SC when we adopted our son, who was 8 at the time. We then lived in NC for three years, then to FWC for three months, and then on to the fiasco in WA. While in WA, we were soundly reproved by our illustrious BC for having adopted, because LCM had stated that "if you could not conceive children of your own, you should focus your energies in other directions". I never heard him say that. I also knew of a FWC grad couple who adopted a baby girl, with help from B*** Gr****. We were told that our son, who admittedly had a lot of problems, still does, was "a mad dog, and you don't keep a mad dog in your house, you get rid of it, put it down." The guy who kicked his boys told us that if any one of his four children intefered in the slightest with his relationship with God he would happily kick that kid down the driveway into the street, walk back into his house and never look back, and forget that child ever existed.
Gee, you know what? My son is a still a mess, but I STILL love hiim. And, funnier thing yet, my relationship with God is just fine, in fact much better since I no longer have blithering idiots like V*** R around to give me bad, wicked, hard-hearted advice. TWI in the 90's busily drove a wedge between God and His people every chance they got. My only regret is that we didn't leave long before we actually did.
I would think a lot of children raised in this TWI atmosphere would have major issues with trust. If you can't trust mommie and daddy to love you and protect you no matter what, who's left? God? Oh heck no, He doesn't love you unless TWI says He can!
Jeez!
WG
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Belle
WG, just a few years ago the Moynihans told a couple here in FL that they would NOT help, support or otherwise tolerate them if they adopted an "older" child. They fell in love with a 6 year old little girl (I think she was 6) and asked for Moynihan's blessing on the adoption. Basically Bob told them TWI would turn their back on them if they went through with the adoption.
He said that older children who are up for adoption are most likely devil spirit possessed given the background and history they typically come from.
The couple adopted the little girl and she's the absolute apple of their eye and they've had no problems whatsoever that I know of.
I don't know how TWI children can possibly grow up with healthy self-esteem and mental stability knowing that the love of their parents is based on their performance and behavior. :unsure: It's really sad to think about.
I know that I've screwed up royally and even hurt my parents terribly (while I was in TWI especially), but I've never once doubted how much they love me and what lengths they would go to in order to protect, care for and to keep me in their lives. TWI kids, for the most part don't have that luxury. If their own "earthly" parents are that demanding, how much more demanding must they think God is? :blink:
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rascal
I think that is the most tragic cost of all Belle.
Not only have their perceptions of love of family been warped, but their ability to trust of understand the love of God.
I fail to see anything even remotely Godly about this.
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coolchef
so basicaly twi has litterally put the fear of the lord in them gosh if mommy and daddy beat us like this what will god do? poor kids it is abuse of the worst kind. i spit on twi"s policies
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Dot Matrix
the Moynih@ns were two of the biggest azzes I ever met. Their leadership made my stay at Rome City a horrible unloving nightmare.
Belle - did they adopt her anyway?
What an unloving twosome. Can you see Jesus saying "turn your back on this little one for she is not worthy of my love?"
What would Jesus do?
Well, if that was a WAY family then maybe the little girl lucked out by not being subject to the the Moynih@ns as spiritual leaders
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templelady
When I was in Texas I was talking to Tonto and I made a statement to the effect of " It's not that I disagree with everything that TWI taught , it is just the price I had to pay for the knowledge was way way too high"
The price I paid was three severely abused children whose adult lives are a wreak, and the realization that no matter what I do or say I can never restore that which is irretrievably broken, or ever realistically have any kind of a none adversarial relationship with any of them
Is a good portion of that my fault--you bet
But I have to ask myself - "if not for TWI and the environment and teachings of same--would things have ever gotten to the extremes that they did?"
And the answer is NO-- I Know what kind of person I was before TWI and I know the kind of person I became after I left TWI--I re found the self that was before TWI.
TWI was a Physical and Mental Torture chamber that turned parents from their children instead of towards them. That in itself should be warning enough For the Bible says "turn the hearts of the fathers toward their children" What TWI taught was in direct contradiction to this--and apparently things haven;t changed all that much
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