This thread is about CHILD abuse in twi...the children mentioned here really had no choice in what happened and your observations are inapropriate here.
Absolutely!
In a direct reply to specific things that have been said here, I directed a simple question to the posters of those specific things.
Neither have bothered to even attempt an answer, but have, instead, continued an attempt to deceive people into blaming children for what happened to them at the hands of twi.
That simple question is: "What is wrong with child abuse in the first place?"
The answer to this question seems obvious, doesn't it? Why won't they answer it, then?
Because they know that in the honest answering of the question, they will have no place to hide themselves and who/what they are/have become.
So I'm going to answer the question...because it's important to know the depth of harm done when a child is abused.
Before I get into what I'm going to say, I'm providing some links to internet pages with more information. If you are at all interested in this subject, these links will provide you with enough information to get more information. If all you want to do is make stupid and abusive arguments to support your mentality, then nothing I do or say can help you. So here are the links...some of them are to .pdf files, so you will need to be able to read .pdf documents...have at it:
There are hundreds, if not thousands, of pages of information on the internet concerning this subject....and I cannot and will not post all of the results here.
If you want to do your own search and want to know how I did mine, I did 3 searches on Yahoo. The first search was for "Effects of Child Abuse". The second search was for "Biochemical Effects of Child Abuse". The third search was for "Developmental Effects of Child Abuse". I put each phrase in " " marks to narrow the results.
Now to my post...
It is generally agreed among professionals that child abuse in and of itself need not affect a person's whole life for as long that person lives.
But mind you, this is a loose generalization with many qualifiers that need to be remembered.
Generally, there are five major areas considered when determining how an abused child will fare as an adult.
First, how long the abuse continued in a child's life.
Second, how the abuse was perceived by authority figures in the child's life.
Third, what and how many types of abuse the child suffered.
Fourth, the child's perception of what happened.
And fifth, the child's perception of him/herself.
Long term effects of child abuse are myriad.
For many years the long term mental effects of child abuse have been known.
More recently, however, it has been proven that an abused child's brain does not develop normally, and that the biochemical exchanges in the body do not function properly. The more the abuse is chronic, compounded, minimalized and ignored, the more damage is done to the child's developing brain, hormonal systems and other biochemical processes.
In other words, child abuse inflicts not only mental damage to a child, but also inflicts brain damage and stunts development. The longer a child is abused, the worse the damage.....in severe cases, the damage is done to the point it is irreversible.
What has all of this got to do with "Child Abuse in TWI"?
Oh, my friends, it is so plain to see that it is often missed.
TWI, as with all cults/gangs, found its most sumptuous prey in the disillusioned, disheartened, disenfranchised, disowned, disdained...folks looking for answers to their problems...who responded to a hug, a smile, attention, a promise of POWER for ABUNDANT living from....ta da!...a "father in the word".
Who the hell would need such things except those who didn't have any of them in the first place? --> -->
So now it's been found out that twi housed more than its fair share of pedophiles, other sex offenders, child abusers, thieves, etc...and that twi as an organization winked at those in leadership positions who were perpetrating such things...and turned a blind eye, a deaf ear and a hardened heart against those who let loose the warning sirens and blew the whistles to the proper authorities.
Yeah...we should have known...but I, for one, came to twi a broken teenager with nowhere else to go except back to a home where I grew up raped and beaten bloody...and twi, with feigned words, made merchandise of me and my family.
having been sexually abused as a child, i can't for the life of me believe "dr. wierwille" would listen to my heartache and counsel me about why he should have sex with me....
I just remembered that when we were foster parents it seemed that the abusive parents of these children always blamed the children. The father of a 13-year-old girl, whose mother was the queen of enablement (for him) and bought this child lingerie straight out of Frederick's, justified his actions with statements such as "I could tell she wanted me to by the way she wiggled when she walked up the stairs." "It's my responsibility as a loving father to make sure my daughter's first sexual experience is with a kind, gentle man who loves her and wants the best for her." "She led me on. She tempted me."
Am I the only one who sees a pattern here. The girl was sexually abused by her father, who blamed HER?
To excuse, to point the finger at the abused, is to condone, even maybe to approve.
This is mental sickness. I don't want to think about it any more.
it seems quite plain to me what is wrong with child abuse .
child abuse at the hand of another person on my child would result in that person going to jail. if you chose to shame yourself CW that is your business..
what is wrong with child abuse? that is a simple answer of hurting an innocent or defenseless smaller person . Adults who fail to protect children from such crimes I think should feel shame and guilt those feeling may motivate them to look at what their job as a parent is and how important it is to you and God. To compromise such a noble calling because a "leader" told you to or your to young to make good choices for a defenseless child maybe the problem is more than twi.
maybe. I am not making excuses for any abuse because I do not believe Twi was a ring that supplied molesters its prey. I just do not believe it. I think childen may have been hurt by the many number of neglectful parents in twi that were unable to take care of themself much less keep their children safe. twi came first and foremost to many by choice and like I said the cost was high for those unwilling to get a grip for whatever reason, some without question begged twi for their very life answers and got burned and harmed their children because of it. If you chose to feel guilt that is your issue. do not try to blame me now.
I think a little shame and guilt may motivate change for a safer more positive life style that will not allow you or those you care about to not get hurt. . Or stand on this forum with your group of
pals and get more accusing and tell some more tales no one can prove as truth or not and have it all planned out on just what the other guy did wrong and call it a party.
I know people and children got abused while involved in twi,,, who is to blame is not as simple as saying it was a ring that was condoned by twi . I was in twi I never condoned it it was about people pleasing and keeping your friends beyond your better judgement even the welfare of your own children sometimes. sad . very sad . now the more you twist what I say try to have me thrown out and accuse me of stuff I never said , call me names just proves my point of the whole group mentality thinking that warps sound thinking. as long as you all agree your safe because your saying what one another wants to hear is a very dangerous place to be amoung groups as large as twi. but somhow it still works for ya! lol
it seems quite plain to me what is wrong with child abuse .
child abuse at the hand of another person on my child would result in that person going to jail. if you chose to shame yourself CW that is your business..
what is wrong with child abuse? that is a simple answer of hurting an innocent or defenseless smaller person . Adults who fail to protect children from such crimes I think should feel shame and guilt those feeling may motivate them to look at what their job as a parent is and how important it is to you and God. To compromise such a noble calling because a "leader" told you to or your to young to make good choices for a defenseless child maybe the problem is more than twi.
maybe. I am not making excuses for any abuse because I do not believe Twi was a ring that supplied molesters its prey. I just do not believe it. I think childen may have been hurt by the many number of neglectful parents in twi that were unable to take care of themself much less keep their children safe. twi came first and foremost to many by choice and like I said the cost was high for those unwilling to get a grip for whatever reason, some without question begged twi for their very life answers and got burned and harmed their children because of it. If you chose to feel guilt that is your issue. do not try to blame me now.
I think a little shame and guilt may motivate change for a safer more positive life style that will not allow you or those you care about to not get hurt. . Or stand on this forum with your group of
pals and get more accusing and tell some more tales no one can prove as truth or not and have it all planned out on just what the other guy did wrong and call it a party.
I know people and children got abused while involved in twi,,, who is to blame is not as simple as saying it was a ring that was condoned by twi . I was in twi I never condoned it it was about people pleasing and keeping your friends beyond your better judgement even the welfare of your own children sometimes. sad . very sad . now the more you twist what I say try to have me thrown out and accuse me of stuff I never said , call me names just proves my point of the whole group mentality thinking that warps sound thinking. as long as you all agree your safe because your saying what one another wants to hear is a very dangerous place to be amoung groups as large as twi. but somhow it still works for ya! lol
These words...familiar...and recognizable...
Near exactly the same words of the twi leadership in AK...Gar* Ki*g...Ri*h U*k*h*rt...S*e*v* *i**e*...*o* and *a**y *a*e...S*e*e *r*s**o*g...
Now I know...now it all makes sense...
Thanks, mj, for clearing all your words up for me.
mj, cool waters never said the entire organization was a pedophile ring. she talked about alaska and more places in the US where this sicko ran children's fellowship and she also mentioned he had been in prison for this very crime
okay you don't believe her. i do.
don't have time to address your points but in my opinion some are good and some are way too black & white
the part about pals and partying was, to me, really unfair and unkind
Like I said before, mj just lets loose with diarrhea all over the screen. I don't think there's ever been a cogent thought in that remarkably empty head.
this is not about cool waters and what she said or I said.
I read the thread to be honest I rarely look at who writes what .
This thread has said twi condoned or looked the other way when child abuse was complained about.
ok who would care what any group said if your child was in jepardy ? hmm? the point made here maybe by rascal is that twi condoned and harbored folks they openly knew where child molesters even after they got arested the story just get thicker and thicker with no proof. that they knew some had molested and kept in the ranks of leadership as if they ok his behaviour, or wanted to protect their pals.
the fact somone was arrested is no big surprise someone was arrested where I lived as well. and he was kicked out.
I do not believe it was twi job to protect your children from who you chose to leave them with, I do believe children got abused I saw it often parents to stressed out to deal with life on normal terms . I know that people with sexual issues towards children do hang out with those who are otherwise distracted and unable to protect or confront them. this is no big shock or shouldnt be to anyone with kids.
What I do not believe is that leaders condoned it or encouraged it or even tolerated it or organized it as a agenda of the organization. I also believe the parents themselves have the responsibility to keep their children safe from any kind of harm , and if they failed to be able to do so becuase what a leader said was more important it is a very much more serious problem than blaming a group for incidents of child abuse within it.
I saw folks protecting and atacking others for their friends they liked and hung out with sure you can see that happening right here on this thread. and that is the reason some got away with some crimes it was/is to tough to stand up to if ya care about belonging more than your common sense or wisdom or the safety of your family.
Mj...it is hard to remain civil when addressing your foolish assumptions about who we are or why we did what we did.....
These people were very good at teaching us to ignore those internal alarms systems......it was always an issue of trusting God...not listening to satan by heading those alarm bells.....ensuring staying meek by implicit obediance to leadership...fail to do any of these things resulted in being stiff necked... dissapointing God and severing that spiritual connection....
It was always either do as we were taught or fail God...and even if they were wrong...God would protect you and cover for their error because of your heart and commitment.... So yeah...it was bull **** ...we see that now...but at the time I absolutely believed that God required these things of me...and no, contrary to what you posted... I was not protected nor were the children from pain....though we did as ordered and trusted God that it would all be ok.
The only thing being attacked on this thread is the ignorance of your assumptions and the conclusions that you have drawn concerning our lives in twi.
{{{{{mj}}}}} All it took was for you to keep posting...keep "talking"....until I understood you. Now that I understand you, no big deal...to each his/her own.
{{{{{ExC}}}}}...yeah....I have black and white thinking about this issue...and I'm not sure I'm ready to blur any of those lines into gray areas...or if I ever will...because, imo, there has to be a point where wrong is wrong and right is right.
*********************
Hindsight is 20/20.
Every answer to every problem is easy to see when it's not your problem.
Maybe you didn't read the posts closely. I will try to give you the Reader's Digest version of what CW was saying. She can correct me if I misstate a fact.
She said a believer was caught sexually molesting children at a children's fellowship. When leadership found out about it, did they kick him out, like they did to others for much lesser offences? Did they separate him from working with children, and get him extensive counseling? No, they moved him to Alaska without telling the Alaskan believers about his history.
He ran children's fellowships in Alaska, and molested again. The parents didn't know -- the children were coerced into keeping it a secret. Eventually, someone did tell, and the guy was arrested and jailed. Did TWI M&A him? No, in fact they tried to stop people from blowing the whistle on him. When he got out they welcomed him back to fellowship in Ohio, without telling anyone about his background. One family there left TWI because they recognized him.
When the parents found out, they got their children away from this guy. Some even left TWI or were kicked out over it. Instead of thanking the whistleblowers, TWI leaders reviled them and covered for the perpetrator.
Sounds to me like the parents acted like parents. Sounds to me like TWI did not act like a Christian organization. Why not? because TWI put the wishes of the adults above the needs of the children. It was men first, women second, and children third. Because that's how Wierwille wanted it.
Just a couple of things for clarification's sake...
Until WayDale, I never knew that one of the perps had a before and after AK history of pedophilia in twi. Others have provided this information.
There were at least 3 perps in AK...a BC who coordinated a children's fellowships in the area, an assitant BC who co-cooridinated that same children's fellowship, and a "babe in the word" who attended twig at the BC's home.
All 3 were tried, convicted and imprisoned.
The "babe in the word" was a state licensed daycare provider who was highly recommended as a daycare provider by several of the non-twi ministers and congregants in Anchorage.
It was not only twi children.
TWI housed and generally took care of the BC's wife while the BC was in prison.
I have actual direct knowledge only of how/where the "babe in the word" was caught.
The State of Alaska took custody of some of the children.
Mj, your posts make me sick..sex abusers will never admit they did anything wrong and this is something that has to brought to their attention when they are finally caught.
Now if one is a sexual abuser himself/herself and allows this behavior to continue, after being incarcerated, these allowed actions pretty much speaks for leadership in TWI and their belief of what sexual abuse is.
Child abuse, Mj, is not only another putting a hand on your child. Moreover, Oldies and Mj, a child is not held responsible for his/her actions when it comes to a predator. Sending that person to jail is a temporary fix...not a permanent one.
Children are speaking out more and telling their parents about these people. I, for one, cannot be at my child's side minute by minute but I do trust those that I leave them with. Who knows, they may come forth and tell me something when they are older. Confronting a abuser is never too late and should be done.
Oldies and Mj, your posts are 98% heartless and tweak with TWI verbal abuse. Your answers tend to make me wonder about your stand on abuse issues and neither one of you should ever be allowed to serve on such a case.
One more thing Mj, you said it happened in your area and they put him out of TWI...why wasn't he prosecuted instead of being let loose to abuse another child? Why did you not stand up for the child? These actions tell alot about TWI and you...
Oh, but women that have sex with ministers are accountable for their actions, too! They could have said no! They could have left! They could have told someone that this was going on! How dare they call themselves victims!!!
Oh, wait, I'm not oldiesman. Please disregard the preceding. Especially since it has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic at hand. It is a distraction and derail to get a one-track opinion across, which of course is what om specializes in.
Okay, now I'm going to pretend I'm mj and dirty the screen with babbling and nonsense.
"It was not TWI's job to protect your children from whom you chose to leave them with?"
Oh for god's sake! Get real! TWI was recommending these people to keep the kids!
If a secular day care center hires a worker who sexually abuse children, and then maybe when the worker is caught out, just sends that worker across town to work at another day care center, is that okay, too?
I really think, mj, that you should consider leaving this thread, and maybe GSC altogether, until you can think more clearly, and thus express yourself more logically.
Mj, In the surrounding counties, we have had 2 children die because of child abuse. Two social workers were fired due to lack of response when the abuse was reported. Are you one of the social workers who was fired?
"Oh for god's sake! Get real! TWI was recommending these people to keep the kids!"
Good point WG. I remember leaving my very young son (he was over 1, but less than 2) with someone in TWI who used a wooden spoon on him for blowing raspberries! I was sooo mad when I found out, I vowed never to leave him with her again.
A year and a half or so later, my sister had a baby, I was her coach. We had made arrangements for a very good friend of mine to watch my two boys while I was with my sister (God forbid their father should do it!). A month before the baby was born, this friend left TWI and I was forbidden by TWI and my husband, to leave my children with her. The only person available to watch the kids while my sister had her baby was this very same girl! I did leave my children with her and it turned out okay, but I sure didn't have any peace of mind while I was assisting in the birth of my nephew.
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Catcup
I, too am new to this particular thread. I spent several hours this morning looking through it. While I was never a part of any "initiation" ceremony (tongue in cheek or otherwise) that Evan describ
CoolWaters
Absolutely!
In a direct reply to specific things that have been said here, I directed a simple question to the posters of those specific things.
Neither have bothered to even attempt an answer, but have, instead, continued an attempt to deceive people into blaming children for what happened to them at the hands of twi.
That simple question is: "What is wrong with child abuse in the first place?"
The answer to this question seems obvious, doesn't it? Why won't they answer it, then?
Because they know that in the honest answering of the question, they will have no place to hide themselves and who/what they are/have become.
So I'm going to answer the question...because it's important to know the depth of harm done when a child is abused.
Before I get into what I'm going to say, I'm providing some links to internet pages with more information. If you are at all interested in this subject, these links will provide you with enough information to get more information. If all you want to do is make stupid and abusive arguments to support your mentality, then nothing I do or say can help you. So here are the links...some of them are to .pdf files, so you will need to be able to read .pdf documents...have at it:
There are hundreds, if not thousands, of pages of information on the internet concerning this subject....and I cannot and will not post all of the results here.
If you want to do your own search and want to know how I did mine, I did 3 searches on Yahoo. The first search was for "Effects of Child Abuse". The second search was for "Biochemical Effects of Child Abuse". The third search was for "Developmental Effects of Child Abuse". I put each phrase in " " marks to narrow the results.
Now to my post...
It is generally agreed among professionals that child abuse in and of itself need not affect a person's whole life for as long that person lives.
But mind you, this is a loose generalization with many qualifiers that need to be remembered.
Generally, there are five major areas considered when determining how an abused child will fare as an adult.
First, how long the abuse continued in a child's life.
Second, how the abuse was perceived by authority figures in the child's life.
Third, what and how many types of abuse the child suffered.
Fourth, the child's perception of what happened.
And fifth, the child's perception of him/herself.
Long term effects of child abuse are myriad.
For many years the long term mental effects of child abuse have been known.
More recently, however, it has been proven that an abused child's brain does not develop normally, and that the biochemical exchanges in the body do not function properly. The more the abuse is chronic, compounded, minimalized and ignored, the more damage is done to the child's developing brain, hormonal systems and other biochemical processes.
In other words, child abuse inflicts not only mental damage to a child, but also inflicts brain damage and stunts development. The longer a child is abused, the worse the damage.....in severe cases, the damage is done to the point it is irreversible.
What has all of this got to do with "Child Abuse in TWI"?
Oh, my friends, it is so plain to see that it is often missed.
TWI, as with all cults/gangs, found its most sumptuous prey in the disillusioned, disheartened, disenfranchised, disowned, disdained...folks looking for answers to their problems...who responded to a hug, a smile, attention, a promise of POWER for ABUNDANT living from....ta da!...a "father in the word".
Who the hell would need such things except those who didn't have any of them in the first place?
--> 
-->
So now it's been found out that twi housed more than its fair share of pedophiles, other sex offenders, child abusers, thieves, etc...and that twi as an organization winked at those in leadership positions who were perpetrating such things...and turned a blind eye, a deaf ear and a hardened heart against those who let loose the warning sirens and blew the whistles to the proper authorities.
Yeah...we should have known...but I, for one, came to twi a broken teenager with nowhere else to go except back to a home where I grew up raped and beaten bloody...and twi, with feigned words, made merchandise of me and my family.
Yeah...I was stupid. Shame on me.
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excathedra
having been sexually abused as a child, i can't for the life of me believe "dr. wierwille" would listen to my heartache and counsel me about why he should have sex with me....
(not too many years between the two)
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shazdancer
Thank you, CW. I've never heard it said better.
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Watered Garden
I just remembered that when we were foster parents it seemed that the abusive parents of these children always blamed the children. The father of a 13-year-old girl, whose mother was the queen of enablement (for him) and bought this child lingerie straight out of Frederick's, justified his actions with statements such as "I could tell she wanted me to by the way she wiggled when she walked up the stairs." "It's my responsibility as a loving father to make sure my daughter's first sexual experience is with a kind, gentle man who loves her and wants the best for her." "She led me on. She tempted me."
Am I the only one who sees a pattern here. The girl was sexually abused by her father, who blamed HER?
To excuse, to point the finger at the abused, is to condone, even maybe to approve.
This is mental sickness. I don't want to think about it any more.
I'm going to get a glass of wine, and go to bed.
WG
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mj412
I do not understand the question.
it seems quite plain to me what is wrong with child abuse .
child abuse at the hand of another person on my child would result in that person going to jail. if you chose to shame yourself CW that is your business..
what is wrong with child abuse? that is a simple answer of hurting an innocent or defenseless smaller person . Adults who fail to protect children from such crimes I think should feel shame and guilt those feeling may motivate them to look at what their job as a parent is and how important it is to you and God. To compromise such a noble calling because a "leader" told you to or your to young to make good choices for a defenseless child maybe the problem is more than twi.
maybe. I am not making excuses for any abuse because I do not believe Twi was a ring that supplied molesters its prey. I just do not believe it. I think childen may have been hurt by the many number of neglectful parents in twi that were unable to take care of themself much less keep their children safe. twi came first and foremost to many by choice and like I said the cost was high for those unwilling to get a grip for whatever reason, some without question begged twi for their very life answers and got burned and harmed their children because of it. If you chose to feel guilt that is your issue. do not try to blame me now.
I think a little shame and guilt may motivate change for a safer more positive life style that will not allow you or those you care about to not get hurt. . Or stand on this forum with your group of
pals and get more accusing and tell some more tales no one can prove as truth or not and have it all planned out on just what the other guy did wrong and call it a party.
I know people and children got abused while involved in twi,,, who is to blame is not as simple as saying it was a ring that was condoned by twi . I was in twi I never condoned it it was about people pleasing and keeping your friends beyond your better judgement even the welfare of your own children sometimes. sad . very sad . now the more you twist what I say try to have me thrown out and accuse me of stuff I never said , call me names just proves my point of the whole group mentality thinking that warps sound thinking. as long as you all agree your safe because your saying what one another wants to hear is a very dangerous place to be amoung groups as large as twi. but somhow it still works for ya! lol
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CoolWaters
These words...familiar...and recognizable...
Near exactly the same words of the twi leadership in AK...Gar* Ki*g...Ri*h U*k*h*rt...S*e*v* *i**e*...*o* and *a**y *a*e...S*e*e *r*s**o*g...
Now I know...now it all makes sense...
Thanks, mj, for clearing all your words up for me.
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WordWolf
MJ,
I'm reasonably certain that nobody here is saying the following:
"I bear zero responsibility for my actions when in twi, and I bear
zero responsibility for deficiences in my child/children's
upbringing while in twi, and I bear zero responsibility for their
exposure to those who would verbally or physically abuse them,
and I bear zero responsibility for carrying out instructions on how
to raise children that were damaging to them while in twi."
NOBODY is saying that, but I get from you that you're saying that
speaking against evils of twi in this category is to abrogate one's
own responsibility.
From a legal standpoint, all twi members who had achieved their
majority (18 or older), bear responsibility for their actions, and
are responsible for their children.
I don't see anyone arguing against that.
=======
Look-
every day, there are new people online.
Every day, someone is tricked into giving out their passwords.
Every day, someone is tricked by some new scam online.
Every day, e-mail inboxes are flooded with warnings about imaginary
problems, forwarded by well-meaning people.
We're talking about some people who lose a few seconds of their time,
and some who lose thousands of dollars.
On top of their monetary loss, some people speak out against internet
scams.
Would you tell them that they should not blame the people who
intentionally scammed them-that it was their own fault?
Well, they DID choose to act, but that makes the scammer no less a
criminal.
=================
I frequently liken the GSC to an Alcoholics Anonymous-type of board.
Both boards deal with ruined lives. Both boards deal in recovery.
Both boards sometimes deal with harsh events.
I think you would NOT go to an AA board and post
"You all CHOSE to buy alcohol. Get over yourselves and get on with
your lives."
However, that's approximately what you did here.
Something to think about, I suggest.
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excathedra
mj, cool waters never said the entire organization was a pedophile ring. she talked about alaska and more places in the US where this sicko ran children's fellowship and she also mentioned he had been in prison for this very crime
okay you don't believe her. i do.
don't have time to address your points but in my opinion some are good and some are way too black & white
the part about pals and partying was, to me, really unfair and unkind
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Steve!
Like I said before, mj just lets loose with diarrhea all over the screen. I don't think there's ever been a cogent thought in that remarkably empty head.
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mj412
this is not about cool waters and what she said or I said.
I read the thread to be honest I rarely look at who writes what .
This thread has said twi condoned or looked the other way when child abuse was complained about.
ok who would care what any group said if your child was in jepardy ? hmm? the point made here maybe by rascal is that twi condoned and harbored folks they openly knew where child molesters even after they got arested the story just get thicker and thicker with no proof. that they knew some had molested and kept in the ranks of leadership as if they ok his behaviour, or wanted to protect their pals.
the fact somone was arrested is no big surprise someone was arrested where I lived as well. and he was kicked out.
I do not believe it was twi job to protect your children from who you chose to leave them with, I do believe children got abused I saw it often parents to stressed out to deal with life on normal terms . I know that people with sexual issues towards children do hang out with those who are otherwise distracted and unable to protect or confront them. this is no big shock or shouldnt be to anyone with kids.
What I do not believe is that leaders condoned it or encouraged it or even tolerated it or organized it as a agenda of the organization. I also believe the parents themselves have the responsibility to keep their children safe from any kind of harm , and if they failed to be able to do so becuase what a leader said was more important it is a very much more serious problem than blaming a group for incidents of child abuse within it.
I saw folks protecting and atacking others for their friends they liked and hung out with sure you can see that happening right here on this thread. and that is the reason some got away with some crimes it was/is to tough to stand up to if ya care about belonging more than your common sense or wisdom or the safety of your family.
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rascal
Mj...it is hard to remain civil when addressing your foolish assumptions about who we are or why we did what we did.....
These people were very good at teaching us to ignore those internal alarms systems......it was always an issue of trusting God...not listening to satan by heading those alarm bells.....ensuring staying meek by implicit obediance to leadership...fail to do any of these things resulted in being stiff necked... dissapointing God and severing that spiritual connection....
It was always either do as we were taught or fail God...and even if they were wrong...God would protect you and cover for their error because of your heart and commitment.... So yeah...it was bull **** ...we see that now...but at the time I absolutely believed that God required these things of me...and no, contrary to what you posted... I was not protected nor were the children from pain....though we did as ordered and trusted God that it would all be ok.
The only thing being attacked on this thread is the ignorance of your assumptions and the conclusions that you have drawn concerning our lives in twi.
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CoolWaters
{{{{{mj}}}}} All it took was for you to keep posting...keep "talking"....until I understood you. Now that I understand you, no big deal...to each his/her own.
{{{{{ExC}}}}}...yeah....I have black and white thinking about this issue...and I'm not sure I'm ready to blur any of those lines into gray areas...or if I ever will...because, imo, there has to be a point where wrong is wrong and right is right.
*********************
Hindsight is 20/20.
Every answer to every problem is easy to see when it's not your problem.
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oldiesman
I go shopping at Walmart.
;)-->
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shazdancer
mj,
Maybe you didn't read the posts closely. I will try to give you the Reader's Digest version of what CW was saying. She can correct me if I misstate a fact.
She said a believer was caught sexually molesting children at a children's fellowship. When leadership found out about it, did they kick him out, like they did to others for much lesser offences? Did they separate him from working with children, and get him extensive counseling? No, they moved him to Alaska without telling the Alaskan believers about his history.
He ran children's fellowships in Alaska, and molested again. The parents didn't know -- the children were coerced into keeping it a secret. Eventually, someone did tell, and the guy was arrested and jailed. Did TWI M&A him? No, in fact they tried to stop people from blowing the whistle on him. When he got out they welcomed him back to fellowship in Ohio, without telling anyone about his background. One family there left TWI because they recognized him.
When the parents found out, they got their children away from this guy. Some even left TWI or were kicked out over it. Instead of thanking the whistleblowers, TWI leaders reviled them and covered for the perpetrator.
Sounds to me like the parents acted like parents. Sounds to me like TWI did not act like a Christian organization. Why not? because TWI put the wishes of the adults above the needs of the children. It was men first, women second, and children third. Because that's how Wierwille wanted it.
Shaz
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CoolWaters
Danged good job there, Shaz! TYVM!
:)-->
Just a couple of things for clarification's sake...
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sadie
Mj, your posts make me sick..sex abusers will never admit they did anything wrong and this is something that has to brought to their attention when they are finally caught.
Now if one is a sexual abuser himself/herself and allows this behavior to continue, after being incarcerated, these allowed actions pretty much speaks for leadership in TWI and their belief of what sexual abuse is.
Child abuse, Mj, is not only another putting a hand on your child. Moreover, Oldies and Mj, a child is not held responsible for his/her actions when it comes to a predator. Sending that person to jail is a temporary fix...not a permanent one.
Children are speaking out more and telling their parents about these people. I, for one, cannot be at my child's side minute by minute but I do trust those that I leave them with. Who knows, they may come forth and tell me something when they are older. Confronting a abuser is never too late and should be done.
Oldies and Mj, your posts are 98% heartless and tweak with TWI verbal abuse. Your answers tend to make me wonder about your stand on abuse issues and neither one of you should ever be allowed to serve on such a case.
One more thing Mj, you said it happened in your area and they put him out of TWI...why wasn't he prosecuted instead of being let loose to abuse another child? Why did you not stand up for the child? These actions tell alot about TWI and you...
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Steve!
Oh, but women that have sex with ministers are accountable for their actions, too! They could have said no! They could have left! They could have told someone that this was going on! How dare they call themselves victims!!!
Oh, wait, I'm not oldiesman. Please disregard the preceding. Especially since it has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic at hand. It is a distraction and derail to get a one-track opinion across, which of course is what om specializes in.
Okay, now I'm going to pretend I'm mj and dirty the screen with babbling and nonsense.
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Watered Garden
"It was not TWI's job to protect your children from whom you chose to leave them with?"
Oh for god's sake! Get real! TWI was recommending these people to keep the kids!
If a secular day care center hires a worker who sexually abuse children, and then maybe when the worker is caught out, just sends that worker across town to work at another day care center, is that okay, too?
I really think, mj, that you should consider leaving this thread, and maybe GSC altogether, until you can think more clearly, and thus express yourself more logically.
People are definitely losing patience with you.
WG
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Shellon
MJ, were you once, or are you still now, certified, licensed or at least employed in a Social Work field?
I have forgotten, but thought you said so a few years ago.
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sadie
Mj, In the surrounding counties, we have had 2 children die because of child abuse. Two social workers were fired due to lack of response when the abuse was reported. Are you one of the social workers who was fired?
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oldiesman
Why do you disparage mj simply because she is sharing her opinion?
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Shellon
Sadie, I understand your ire, but I am not saying MJ is a social worker.
I'm asking her, because I can't remember what she told me, it was quite a while ago.
Working in Social Services isn't an accusation of guilt, I'm just curious.
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Abigail
"Oh for god's sake! Get real! TWI was recommending these people to keep the kids!"
Good point WG. I remember leaving my very young son (he was over 1, but less than 2) with someone in TWI who used a wooden spoon on him for blowing raspberries! I was sooo mad when I found out, I vowed never to leave him with her again.
A year and a half or so later, my sister had a baby, I was her coach. We had made arrangements for a very good friend of mine to watch my two boys while I was with my sister (God forbid their father should do it!). A month before the baby was born, this friend left TWI and I was forbidden by TWI and my husband, to leave my children with her. The only person available to watch the kids while my sister had her baby was this very same girl! I did leave my children with her and it turned out okay, but I sure didn't have any peace of mind while I was assisting in the birth of my nephew.
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excathedra
it would be great if we were all perfect as parents (and anything else for that matter)
it would be great if mine had been....
listen, my mom would have died before she "let me" get molested
same way i feel about my son
ahhhhhhhh too much to talk about too personal
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