Something my hubs and I use in our marriage is Dr Phil's famous Relationship Question: Do you want to be right or do you want to see this marriage (or whatever relationship) work?
I had never thought to apply it to GSC. Good thinking there! :)-->
As for none of us being waysurvivor's therapist...right on! I don't think many of us would legitimately qualify to be anybody's therapist...but hey...most of us are pretty darned good support group folks. :)--> Me? I've just walked in waysurvivor's shoes, so to speak, enough to know that, as Mo has explained, the mind treats all memories as "real". Therapy is often just figuring out what each memory represents.
For example...
And this is probably too much detail for the taste of some...
And this is probably triggering for others...
But I have thought to share this from the moment I saw waysurivivor's posts...
Because it exemplifies so perfectly what waysurvivor is dealing with...
So I hope this has been enough of a warning for those who don't want to read details or be triggered to stop reading this post...
My husband loves fried eggplant. I remember that while growing up many meals included fried eggplant. I also remember how my mother cooked it...peeling it, soaking it in salt water overnight, flouring it...everything. So I cooked pretty good fried eggplant for my husband whenever he requested it.
But from the time I met him (age 18) until I was 30 years old, I couldn't buy eggplant. I couldn't touch eggplant unless it was already peeled and sliced. I refused to eat eggplant. I always told him, "If anything in this world looks and feels like semen, eggplant is it."
What???????????
Pretty insane, huh?
But when I was 30yo I went to a therapist whose expertise was in cult exiting. (She grew up with Jim Jones and helped in the aftermath of that situation. She was great!!!!!!!)
About 4 sessions in, she asked me to participated in group therapy for sexual abuse survivors. I was confused. I had no memories of sexual abuse. At first I refused. What was she trying to do to me, anyway???? I thought her totally incompetent.
Then between that session and our next session, this whole eggplant thing came up. This time, however, I had a retching and vomitting reaction, a severe panic attack, and became suicidal.
My husband contacted my therapist. She said to bring me to her office immediately.
She got me into a group session that started less than 30 minutes later. (I agreed then because she gave me the choice of either that group session or the hospital.)
I've always been at home in small groups, so it was somehow calming to just sit there and listen to everybody.
Then one woman's story hit too close to home. I freaked out totally. I ran out of the building screaming, "I want my mommy! I want my mommy!" In the middle of the parking lot I curled into a tight little ball, rocked myself, crying/screaming "I want my mommy! I want my mommy!"
Memories were flooding my brain.
I did not remember most of this. I was told about what I was doing and saying. Later in therapy sessions, I figured out what I was thinking/feeling.
Long story short, one of the memories was of being 4yo, on my knees, between my dad's legs, looking up at his scrotum...and thinking to myself, "Why does Daddy have an eggplant between his legs?"
Yes, memories are a funny thing. I tend to have more body memories than flashbacks. When I had previously talked about feeling like hands were touching me all over and I couldn't get away, that was an example of one of the body memories I have, one of the more mild ones. Now, since I have not done so before and have not felt like doing it until now, I would like to apologize for posting my story in the graphic tone that others took offense to. With my previous support group experiences, if something could be triggering, we would post *******Warning, may trigger*******. However, since this was a forum on child abuse, and my entire support forums have all been about child abuse or rape before (and other subjects are talked about), I did not think there was a need to post that information. Rather, I incorrectly assumed that people here would know that the things in this forum could be triggering. With my limited experience with the Way, I just thought everyone would have known that child abuse in the Way was attrocious. Now I see that not all forms of it were as extreme as mine, so I apologize for offending anyone, and I will make sure to post warnings if I do continue to post in this forum.
GSers have had many conversations about how to handle abuse issues. Should there be a forum just for abuse conversations? Should it be public or password protected? Should there be separate rules and moderators?
Nothing was ever really decided...because things tended to work themselves out. The PTs are great tools for discussing such issues!
But every now and again somebody such as yourself comes along and shakes up the status quo.
You are seeing how GSC handles that. :)--> We do work it out, imo.
Every now and again someone (like me, maybe? tee hee) poses the question about twi being primarily a sex group.
Uh oh! Watch out then!
But, in all honesty, it's good to push those comfort limits every now and again. How else are we going to learn and grow?
And, really, nobody is forced to read anybody else's posts. Warning or no warning, a thread with "Child Abuse" in the title is to be expected to be disturbing at best...immobilizing at worst.
So, hang around, speak your mind, consider the rules and the feelings of others, enjoy the company of the rest of us...and give us the chance to enjoy your company.
Most of us get through another day with the help of each other. You're probably not much different. :)-->
I try to take it one day at a time. Some days are better than others. All in all, I have better days than I used to have. You all should have seen me seven years ago. I hated all men except for my dad (stepfather) and my grandpa. Whenever I helped a customer (male) or checked them out through the checkouts at work, I'd wonder if they were a child abuser. I'd have panic attacks every day, and screaming matches with my mother was a normal thing. I'm going through a rough patch right now, because I just moved out on my own again, and I'm trying to make it. It is hard to do when your brain doesn't develop normally. For the most part though, I'm happier than I used to be. The Lexapro does wonders. :)-->
waysurvivor...sounds to me like you had it worse than most folks did in their twi experience... As you overcome your difficulties, you will become stronger with each victory...this is a good place to come for encouragement and friends who understand.
Sometimes there is a lot of disagreement on certain issues and some folks (myself included), can be downright ornery...but that's because we are all individuals here with different ideas and opinions...a refreshing contrast to when we were all brainwashed in the cult...so, kick your shoes off and relax with the rest of us. ;)-->
"Initiation into the Inner Sanctum of The Way". That was the name of the event. It was an early summer school stay for me...perhaps '71, maybe '73 or 4.
It was done between the pond & the road, same area as the ROA '71 site. a campfire was blazing.
The Evan:
I was there that night ... it was at the end of the Advanced Class 1973 ... and it was just as spooky and surreal as you describe. I let the stuff slip that they put in my hands because I had NO intention of putting an unknown substance in my mouth. I was technically not a child at the time, though ... I was 18 years and 2 months old ...
It was Indian Horseradish. Burned like a son of a gun.
And was all in fun. Not a serious ceremony at all. My husband was there, too, summer school 1972. He told me abuot it years ago. Never thought for a minute it was serious at all. And he's a smart guy, so please don't jump on this and impugn his integrity. I can see where it might have been scary to some folks.
Evan...this stuff is great! I thought that I had heard most of the war stories but the inner sactum thing is a new one for me! ...and wierwille called himself the "grand wizard"? Holy crap, I think I just wet myself laughing! :D--> :D--> :D--> Might any pictures exist? What a hoot!
The first time I saw "clergy robes" was at the dedication of the Rome City campus...I believe it was about 1976...My WOW family was allowed to attend from Chicago...(they were trying to find warm bodies to have a "crowd" for Veepee)...So anyway, I'm standing out in the crowd, waiting for the trustees to walk out...and suddenly here they come...all dressed in robes! I was shocked, it was totally unexpected, I didn't know that twi folks wore robes, nobody told me...I honestly thought it was a joke, a skit or something...I burst out laughing!!! Realizing that I was the only one laughing, I "stiffled" myself quickly...it only lasted a fraction of a second, a few people noticed and I recall feeling embarrased...and now you're telling me about the grand wizard and his hooded robe! ROFLMAO
Oh yeah...and about the 6th corps folks who were doing the wild mambo...we want NAMES!!! ;)-->
Hairy, what can I say? DocVoc loved pomp & circumstance. And, obviously he loved to play dress up. I mean, why else would he wear powder blue ruffled cuff tux shirts, homemade funkiness with fringe on it, etc?
As long as the ABS came rolling in and classes full of new "waybots" were running, do you really feel that leadership really gave a .... about what was being done to children?
Not when THE teacher told folks in the corpes that in the event of a usa take over ..... that it was ok to allow our kids to be sacrificed or destroyed....just protect and save yourself at all cost because *you carry the word* you can always produce more children after the danger has passed.
Destroying an unborn child was honorable because a pregnancy was considered an interferance with your duty to God.
So no oen, in answere to your retorical question....no I do not think that leadership gave a sh-t about children.
quote:Destroying an unborn child was honorable because a pregnancy was considered an interferance with your duty to God.
If the Way Corps volunteer considered it as interference with their duty and commitment, they willingly signed the consent form, for what they thought was a greater purpose. Some considered it interference; some didn't. But it was always the individual's decision to make. Unless there were abortions at gunpoint?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we know your position on this, om, that there was absolute complete freedom of choice for the women involved, and that any of them that say that they felt coerced should be rebuked harshly. How dare they consider themselves to be victims of heartless leader.... and heartless policies!!!
Oh, but that's right, the topic at hand is NOT about whether the women felt like victims or not. The topic at hand is Child Abuse in TWIt, and the subtopic is that leader.... really didn't care about the children all that much. NO ONE was saying that the women were victims.
You've got a piano, but it only has one key. It must be a KMart piano, definitely KMart.
quote:Destroying an unborn child was honorable because a pregnancy was considered an interferance with your duty to God.
If the Way Corps volunteer considered it as interference with their duty and commitment, they willingly signed the consent form, for what they thought was a greater purpose. Some considered it interference; some didn't. But it was always the individual's decision to make. Unless there were abortions at gunpoint?
OM,
You know, I could get mad at you for such stupidity...but that's just it...you know you're being stupid and you keep doing it...what's there to get mad at?
If it wouldn't be considered flaming or something else against the rules here, I'd collect all your posts, along with the posts of some others with your mentality, put them together in an e-book, post a sticky post on this "About The Way" forum, say "For those of you who think The Way International is so terrific, take a look at the collected thoughts of some of its most loyal supporters", and then post a link to the e-book.
If, after reading the e-book, anybody would consider twi anything but a destructive cult, I'd send them your email address so you all could start an offshoot of your own.
quote:Yeah, yeah, yeah, we know your position on this, om, that there was absolute complete freedom of choice for the women involved, and that any of them that say that they felt coerced should be rebuked harshly. How dare they consider themselves to be victims of heartless leader.... and heartless policies!!!
I don't know about getting rebuked harshly, but I do think that communicating about individual personal responsibility would be in order. ...
Heartless policies? I actually think the policy of allowing the woman to make a choice was in the woman's best interest! Maybe TWI should have hellishly demanded that the women continued their pregnancies and forced them to be parents?
oldies, if some agreed to abortion because it was honorable and interfered with their duty to God, then what were the reasons of those who did not believe it was for interference and a duty to God.
Your statement tends to have me believe that you know the reason/reasons as fact. If not, then you should not make such statements..
I think that was up to the individuals involved. Some thought that having a child at that time was more important than keeping or making Corps commitments. It was all up to the individual.
To have been allowed to have had these children and still remained within the will of God and in good standing in the household would have been nice.
To have not had to chose between the life of our child or the resultant spiritual and eventual physical death of ourselves was not much of a choice to have been allowed.
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Catcup
I, too am new to this particular thread. I spent several hours this morning looking through it. While I was never a part of any "initiation" ceremony (tongue in cheek or otherwise) that Evan describ
CoolWaters
{{{{{Lindy}}}}}
Something my hubs and I use in our marriage is Dr Phil's famous Relationship Question: Do you want to be right or do you want to see this marriage (or whatever relationship) work?
I had never thought to apply it to GSC. Good thinking there!
:)-->
As for none of us being waysurvivor's therapist...right on! I don't think many of us would legitimately qualify to be anybody's therapist...but hey...most of us are pretty darned good support group folks.
:)--> Me? I've just walked in waysurvivor's shoes, so to speak, enough to know that, as Mo has explained, the mind treats all memories as "real". Therapy is often just figuring out what each memory represents.
For example...
And this is probably too much detail for the taste of some...
And this is probably triggering for others...
But I have thought to share this from the moment I saw waysurivivor's posts...
Because it exemplifies so perfectly what waysurvivor is dealing with...
So I hope this has been enough of a warning for those who don't want to read details or be triggered to stop reading this post...
My husband loves fried eggplant. I remember that while growing up many meals included fried eggplant. I also remember how my mother cooked it...peeling it, soaking it in salt water overnight, flouring it...everything. So I cooked pretty good fried eggplant for my husband whenever he requested it.
But from the time I met him (age 18) until I was 30 years old, I couldn't buy eggplant. I couldn't touch eggplant unless it was already peeled and sliced. I refused to eat eggplant. I always told him, "If anything in this world looks and feels like semen, eggplant is it."
What???????????
Pretty insane, huh?
But when I was 30yo I went to a therapist whose expertise was in cult exiting. (She grew up with Jim Jones and helped in the aftermath of that situation. She was great!!!!!!!)
About 4 sessions in, she asked me to participated in group therapy for sexual abuse survivors. I was confused. I had no memories of sexual abuse. At first I refused. What was she trying to do to me, anyway???? I thought her totally incompetent.
Then between that session and our next session, this whole eggplant thing came up. This time, however, I had a retching and vomitting reaction, a severe panic attack, and became suicidal.
My husband contacted my therapist. She said to bring me to her office immediately.
She got me into a group session that started less than 30 minutes later. (I agreed then because she gave me the choice of either that group session or the hospital.)
I've always been at home in small groups, so it was somehow calming to just sit there and listen to everybody.
Then one woman's story hit too close to home. I freaked out totally. I ran out of the building screaming, "I want my mommy! I want my mommy!" In the middle of the parking lot I curled into a tight little ball, rocked myself, crying/screaming "I want my mommy! I want my mommy!"
Memories were flooding my brain.
I did not remember most of this. I was told about what I was doing and saying. Later in therapy sessions, I figured out what I was thinking/feeling.
Long story short, one of the memories was of being 4yo, on my knees, between my dad's legs, looking up at his scrotum...and thinking to myself, "Why does Daddy have an eggplant between his legs?"
See how memories work?
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waysurvivor
Yes, memories are a funny thing. I tend to have more body memories than flashbacks. When I had previously talked about feeling like hands were touching me all over and I couldn't get away, that was an example of one of the body memories I have, one of the more mild ones. Now, since I have not done so before and have not felt like doing it until now, I would like to apologize for posting my story in the graphic tone that others took offense to. With my previous support group experiences, if something could be triggering, we would post *******Warning, may trigger*******. However, since this was a forum on child abuse, and my entire support forums have all been about child abuse or rape before (and other subjects are talked about), I did not think there was a need to post that information. Rather, I incorrectly assumed that people here would know that the things in this forum could be triggering. With my limited experience with the Way, I just thought everyone would have known that child abuse in the Way was attrocious. Now I see that not all forms of it were as extreme as mine, so I apologize for offending anyone, and I will make sure to post warnings if I do continue to post in this forum.
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CoolWaters
waysurvivor,
Live and learn, huh?
GSers have had many conversations about how to handle abuse issues. Should there be a forum just for abuse conversations? Should it be public or password protected? Should there be separate rules and moderators?
Nothing was ever really decided...because things tended to work themselves out. The PTs are great tools for discussing such issues!
But every now and again somebody such as yourself comes along and shakes up the status quo.
You are seeing how GSC handles that.
:)--> We do work it out, imo.
Every now and again someone (like me, maybe? tee hee) poses the question about twi being primarily a sex group.
Uh oh! Watch out then!
But, in all honesty, it's good to push those comfort limits every now and again. How else are we going to learn and grow?
And, really, nobody is forced to read anybody else's posts. Warning or no warning, a thread with "Child Abuse" in the title is to be expected to be disturbing at best...immobilizing at worst.
So, hang around, speak your mind, consider the rules and the feelings of others, enjoy the company of the rest of us...and give us the chance to enjoy your company.
Most of us get through another day with the help of each other. You're probably not much different.
:)-->
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excathedra
just so sad you had to go through such bad things dearest cw and ws
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waysurvivor
I try to take it one day at a time. Some days are better than others. All in all, I have better days than I used to have. You all should have seen me seven years ago. I hated all men except for my dad (stepfather) and my grandpa. Whenever I helped a customer (male) or checked them out through the checkouts at work, I'd wonder if they were a child abuser. I'd have panic attacks every day, and screaming matches with my mother was a normal thing. I'm going through a rough patch right now, because I just moved out on my own again, and I'm trying to make it. It is hard to do when your brain doesn't develop normally. For the most part though, I'm happier than I used to be. The Lexapro does wonders.
:)-->
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excathedra
hoping your rough patch smooths out for you (((((((ws)))))))
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GrouchoMarxJr
waysurvivor...sounds to me like you had it worse than most folks did in their twi experience... As you overcome your difficulties, you will become stronger with each victory...this is a good place to come for encouragement and friends who understand.
Sometimes there is a lot of disagreement on certain issues and some folks (myself included), can be downright ornery...but that's because we are all individuals here with different ideas and opinions...a refreshing contrast to when we were all brainwashed in the cult...so, kick your shoes off and relax with the rest of us.
;)-->
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ToadFriend
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excathedra
are you serious evan and toad ? this was not silly "fun" ??? tell me, i just don't get it....
by the way, i don't mean this disrespectfully AT ALL !!!!
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TheEvan
I took it as silly fun, excie, but it was prsented in a fairly serious "macabre theater" style.
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WhiteDove
They used to close the early Advaced classes like this but I thought they canned it by the early 70's Didn't they also use Indian Arrowroot.
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Watered Garden
Regarding the "Initiation" thing:
It was Indian Horseradish. Burned like a son of a gun.
And was all in fun. Not a serious ceremony at all. My husband was there, too, summer school 1972. He told me abuot it years ago. Never thought for a minute it was serious at all. And he's a smart guy, so please don't jump on this and impugn his integrity. I can see where it might have been scary to some folks.
WG
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TheEvan
WG, people attended ceremonies on different years. obviously they differed from year to year...
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GrouchoMarxJr
Evan...this stuff is great! I thought that I had heard most of the war stories but the inner sactum thing is a new one for me!
...and wierwille called himself the "grand wizard"? Holy crap, I think I just wet myself laughing! 
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D--> Might any pictures exist? What a hoot!
The first time I saw "clergy robes" was at the dedication of the Rome City campus...I believe it was about 1976...My WOW family was allowed to attend from Chicago...(they were trying to find warm bodies to have a "crowd" for Veepee)...So anyway, I'm standing out in the crowd, waiting for the trustees to walk out...and suddenly here they come...all dressed in robes! I was shocked, it was totally unexpected, I didn't know that twi folks wore robes, nobody told me...I honestly thought it was a joke, a skit or something...I burst out laughing!!! Realizing that I was the only one laughing, I "stiffled" myself quickly...it only lasted a fraction of a second, a few people noticed and I recall feeling embarrased...and now you're telling me about the grand wizard and his hooded robe! ROFLMAO
Oh yeah...and about the 6th corps folks who were doing the wild mambo...we want NAMES!!!
;)-->
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TheEvan
Hairy, what can I say? DocVoc loved pomp & circumstance. And, obviously he loved to play dress up. I mean, why else would he wear powder blue ruffled cuff tux shirts, homemade funkiness with fringe on it, etc?
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oenophile
As long as the ABS came rolling in and classes full of new "waybots" were running, do you really feel that leadership really gave a .... about what was being done to children?
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rascal
Not when THE teacher told folks in the corpes that in the event of a usa take over ..... that it was ok to allow our kids to be sacrificed or destroyed....just protect and save yourself at all cost because *you carry the word* you can always produce more children after the danger has passed.
Destroying an unborn child was honorable because a pregnancy was considered an interferance with your duty to God.
So no oen, in answere to your retorical question....no I do not think that leadership gave a sh-t about children.
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oldiesman
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Steve!
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we know your position on this, om, that there was absolute complete freedom of choice for the women involved, and that any of them that say that they felt coerced should be rebuked harshly. How dare they consider themselves to be victims of heartless leader.... and heartless policies!!!
Oh, but that's right, the topic at hand is NOT about whether the women felt like victims or not. The topic at hand is Child Abuse in TWIt, and the subtopic is that leader.... really didn't care about the children all that much. NO ONE was saying that the women were victims.
You've got a piano, but it only has one key. It must be a KMart piano, definitely KMart.
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CoolWaters
OM,
You know, I could get mad at you for such stupidity...but that's just it...you know you're being stupid and you keep doing it...what's there to get mad at?
If it wouldn't be considered flaming or something else against the rules here, I'd collect all your posts, along with the posts of some others with your mentality, put them together in an e-book, post a sticky post on this "About The Way" forum, say "For those of you who think The Way International is so terrific, take a look at the collected thoughts of some of its most loyal supporters", and then post a link to the e-book.
If, after reading the e-book, anybody would consider twi anything but a destructive cult, I'd send them your email address so you all could start an offshoot of your own.
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oldiesman
Heartless policies? I actually think the policy of allowing the woman to make a choice was in the woman's best interest! Maybe TWI should have hellishly demanded that the women continued their pregnancies and forced them to be parents?
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sadie
oldies, if some agreed to abortion because it was honorable and interfered with their duty to God, then what were the reasons of those who did not believe it was for interference and a duty to God.
Your statement tends to have me believe that you know the reason/reasons as fact. If not, then you should not make such statements..
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oldiesman
I think that was up to the individuals involved. Some thought that having a child at that time was more important than keeping or making Corps commitments. It was all up to the individual.
That's why I keep saying:
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rascal
To have been allowed to have had these children and still remained within the will of God and in good standing in the household would have been nice.
To have not had to chose between the life of our child or the resultant spiritual and eventual physical death of ourselves was not much of a choice to have been allowed.
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