like much of TWI it may very well depend on when you were in and where you were in.
I heard the public teachings, which were similar to what you shared. I also know when I approached leadership because my ex-husband was leaving bruises on my child, I was told "sometimes that is what it takes to get a child's attention".
The one time smack to get attention could become a whole series of get attention smacks, especially with a toddler having a tantrum type situation.
Never did see a 2 yr old halt a tantrum with one smack and a some words. My HFC was quite proud of 'outlasting' someone's toddler, smacking and talking until the child was exhausted and quit the tantrum.
I never let them have access to my kids, even though they offered to babysit. No way.
A couple we knew who were WOW's in Lima, OH had problems with their child, who was later diagnosed with ADHD. The then trunk coordinator told them: 'Use the spoon. If the spoon doesn't work, use a belt. If the belt doesn't work, use a 2 x 4!"
I wonder how he disciplined his own kids..... :unsure:
Exactly, Bramble! I was my experience with my oldest son that a smack on the butt or the thigh would NOT halt a tantrum but only cause it to get worse! Generally, with him, the best way to halt a tantrum was to hold him tight so he couldn't hurt himself, me, or anyone else, tell him I love him, and wait for it to pass.
Ever try to argue with an adult when their emotions are already really high and they are not being particularly reasonable? It doesn't work. So what makes us think that hitting a child who's emotions are already high and who is not being particularly reasonable is going to make them suddently become more reasonable.
Besides, kids are rarely reasonable anyway. lol lol
I was also counseled by same coord that I could teach my kids to stop crying or whining by use of the magic sppon. Yup, I WANTED silent little robots who held everything bottled up inside. I've seen them in Way circles, too. All big eyed and solemn, not bold, clinging behind a parent.
My oldest was absolutely perfect in school--behavior, grades, everything. Then kid missed a couple of days and was behind on math, kept getting answers wrong. Began having stomach aches at math time every day. Child was 8! That was a big wake up call to us.
We were told in Family Corps that little children are very susceptible to devil spirit possession, and they must not be allowed to cry and get out of control of their emotions. Therefore, even when a child was crying because they just received a painful and severe thrashing, they were not permitted more than one or two squawks. Then, we were to put our hand firmly over their mouth and tell them "Be quiet. Get control of yourself!" and not allow them to cry, or they would get possessed!
Two things amaze me about this: (1) it was said in the first place, and (2) I was stupid enough to stick around after I heard it.
I really, really hated FWC. It was the most miserable 3 months of my life. Those poor kids! (By the way, I flatly refused to carry a spoon and I really did not want other people beating on my kid, though I think he got walloped on a frequent basis anyway.)
Moynihan brags about flicking his kid on the ear when he was growing up. He proudly tells the story of Brian getting his hair cut when he was a toddler. When it was through, Moynihan told Brian to say, "Thank you" to the lady (another WC person).
Brian refused. Moynihan "flicked" him on the ear and told him to say "thank you". The poor WC girl had to stand there and couldn't leave until Brian "obeyed" his daddy.
They ended up standing there for nearly an hour with Brian getting his ear flicked over and over and over again until he finally said "thank you". Made the WC girl behind on her schedule and late for something (which she probably got reamed for).
I don't have kids and I don't pretend to know how to handle them in every situation, but this seems a little outrageous and unnecessary to me. I think with kids, like with life, you have to pick your battles. But in TWI we had to "win" all the time, even if that meant it was at the expense of the children's well-being. :(
I really don't understand the instant response thing about training dogs. To me, one of the great pleasures of having a dog is walking with him and watching him respond to the things that I can't hear or smell. That sorta implies that the dog can think for himself.
Amen, Jim! BUT, naturally, there are some things you want an instance response for - like agility, rally, flyball, obedience, etc. and just plain good doggie manners, but I suspect that's not what you're talking about. Vixen and I are like a team. We go hiking through the woods quite a bit. She'll go ahead of me checking things out, smelling stuff hear and there, but will only go so far before circling back to see where I am and make eye contact with me. I'll tell her "good girl" and she'll take off again. If she finds a hole she wants to investigate, she'll stand at the entrance and wait for me to nod to her before she'll go in and I never trained or asked her to do that. We do that the whole time we're out and I think when the next Master Earthdog Trial comes up she's gonna kick bu++.
I've never, ever, ever hit Vixen, EVER. It's not necessary with positive reinforcement. But with dog training, the dog is always right - it's the human who's got the communication problem. If she messed on the carpet as a puppy, it was my fault for not watching her and paying attention. If she chewed a shoe it was my fault for leaving it where she could get it and/or for not having her bones out.
It also takes a great deal of time, patience and repetition. The more time you spend with your dog if you use positive training, the better you two will know each other and respect each other's limitations. There are a lot of things Vixen and I can now communicate with just eye contact or the slightest movement. I would suspect that the time, patience, repetition and positive reinforcement would work with children, but as someone mentioned before - you don't teach children to blindly obey, you want them to grow up to be rational, logical, thinking and mature adults.
VP gave such a demonstration to the 6th Corps. Showed how he trained his dog to obey immediately on the first command and said most people's dogs are better trained than their children. Suggested the same principles in raising kids. Tell them once and if they disobey, smack 'em with a wooden spoon.
I'll never forget the strange display down in Florida in the home of Bxx and Dxxxxx Mxxxxxxx when their limb secretary's little daughter failed to acknowledge my greeting when I said hello to her.
Literally no one was allowed to move until this child said hello to me. I had to stay there and watch while
Bxx knelt in front of this kid and smacked her bottom until she finally said hello. We were there at least 45 minutes, no exaggeration. He would tell her to say hello, she would refuse, and he would smack her. Repeated God knows how many times.
Tedious. Succeeded in getting the child to say hello, but more importantly, it did NOT change the child's attitude.
In raising children, we are after their hearts, not just the outward expressions.
Typical for TWI to have it so backward.
Treat the kid like a dog, get someone who will bite the hand that feeds it, IMHO.
Exactly what I was going to say!
A couple we knew who were WOW's in Lima, OH had problems with their child, who was later diagnosed with ADHD.
The then trunk coordinator told them: 'Use the spoon. If the spoon doesn't work, use a belt. If the belt doesn't work, use a 2 x 4!"
I wonder how he disciplined his own kids..... :unsure:
This dog book helps make things make a little more sense.
I brought this up, and people have heard of the book. Their first instinct is to defend Wierwille, of course. "He learned from others, yes we know blah blah blah . . ." :blink:
And here I was just thinking about religious groups who are trained like dogs this last weekend too, I'm serious.
I know a group of people (some of who are much younger) who know no other way to relate to authority figures other than responding to few sound bites that the leadership uses to very effectively lead them around by the nose.
I think that for people who know no other way of dealing with authority figures than responding to certain techniques with all the thinking of Pavlovs trained dogs they are bound to be ignorantly led around by whoever knows how to obtain firstly, their affection, then secondly, their unthinking obedience.
And most unfortunately to me, these trained individuals know no other way to percieve the events of the last few years other than following core beliefs that were deliberately planted in them by their trainers....(grumble, mumble, maybe even cuss a bit on my part.)
In my case, it seems that they have virtually no conception of basic honesty issues, and they have a very hard time dealing with simply directness.
And it seems that they cannot deal with people without automatically going along with the deliberate doubts thaty were skillfully implanted in them by their puppetmasters. They quickly are suckered into shutting out anyone who obviously goes against the grain of these things. And even if they don't realize it, they automatically discount anyone who questions those who they have given the power over their lives to be in effect, THEIR DOGTRAINERS.
My perception is that anyone who habitually leads people about like a TWI of RRF leader is revealed by their commands and the skill whereby they effectively control peoples' perception of reality by the way they lead people about exactly like a dog trainer leads about his dogs.
Fortunately for us; dogs do not have the ability to question whether or not they should allow people to lead them about in such a fashion, but we do.
And even leaders who seem to satisfy our needs and make us feel content are not immune to anyone eventually learning to decide not to allow themselves to be led about in such a fashion. But in my experience it is difficult to learn to think again for one's self. But the harm that will eventually and inevitably be done to those being led about exactly as a dog-in-training is much higher! It is worth the fight to first recognize the signs and then change.
It doesn't really apply to kids, but I do love to watch Cesar Milan The Dog Whisperer. Some of his techniques are really cool. The funny part in this discussion is that he never does anything remotely similar to the beating of children with a wooden spoon when training dogs. So VPW's techniques are treating children more cruelly than dogs.
I'm sure VPW wanted to train kids up with a pack mentality, though. Follow the pack leader unquestioning.
I think just for fun and kicks we ought to come up with claims like the old "green card" for PFAL, except containing reality as opposed to hype. We could call it the "red card", after soccer.
Benefits on the "red card":
1) Builds obedience by treating your kids worse than an animal
2) Improves denial by hardening your conscience against scripture and common sense
3) Trains you how to control others
4) Learn to treat women like objects
5) Learn how to research the Bible to make it say whatever the BOD's current policy is.
6) Builds slavery by being under a landlord all your life.
7) Teaches you to opportunistically seek the death of wealthy relatives.
8) Improves teamwork by killing any sense of individualism.
I tried to read this - couldn't make it through the second page. So sad. Especially since I am a mom now. I am so so thankful we got out before she was born. I can't even imagine...
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VP gave such a demonstration to the 6th Corps. Showed how he trained his dog to obey immediately on the first command and said most people's dogs are better trained than their children. Suggested th
Abigail
Lorna,
like much of TWI it may very well depend on when you were in and where you were in.
I heard the public teachings, which were similar to what you shared. I also know when I approached leadership because my ex-husband was leaving bruises on my child, I was told "sometimes that is what it takes to get a child's attention".
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Bramble
The one time smack to get attention could become a whole series of get attention smacks, especially with a toddler having a tantrum type situation.
Never did see a 2 yr old halt a tantrum with one smack and a some words. My HFC was quite proud of 'outlasting' someone's toddler, smacking and talking until the child was exhausted and quit the tantrum.
I never let them have access to my kids, even though they offered to babysit. No way.
And he is still a HFC today!
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Watered Garden
Exactly what I was going to say!
A couple we knew who were WOW's in Lima, OH had problems with their child, who was later diagnosed with ADHD. The then trunk coordinator told them: 'Use the spoon. If the spoon doesn't work, use a belt. If the belt doesn't work, use a 2 x 4!"
I wonder how he disciplined his own kids..... :unsure:
WG
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Abigail
Exactly, Bramble! I was my experience with my oldest son that a smack on the butt or the thigh would NOT halt a tantrum but only cause it to get worse! Generally, with him, the best way to halt a tantrum was to hold him tight so he couldn't hurt himself, me, or anyone else, tell him I love him, and wait for it to pass.
Ever try to argue with an adult when their emotions are already really high and they are not being particularly reasonable? It doesn't work. So what makes us think that hitting a child who's emotions are already high and who is not being particularly reasonable is going to make them suddently become more reasonable.
Besides, kids are rarely reasonable anyway. lol lol
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Bramble
I was also counseled by same coord that I could teach my kids to stop crying or whining by use of the magic sppon. Yup, I WANTED silent little robots who held everything bottled up inside. I've seen them in Way circles, too. All big eyed and solemn, not bold, clinging behind a parent.
My oldest was absolutely perfect in school--behavior, grades, everything. Then kid missed a couple of days and was behind on math, kept getting answers wrong. Began having stomach aches at math time every day. Child was 8! That was a big wake up call to us.
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Watered Garden
We were told in Family Corps that little children are very susceptible to devil spirit possession, and they must not be allowed to cry and get out of control of their emotions. Therefore, even when a child was crying because they just received a painful and severe thrashing, they were not permitted more than one or two squawks. Then, we were to put our hand firmly over their mouth and tell them "Be quiet. Get control of yourself!" and not allow them to cry, or they would get possessed!
Two things amaze me about this: (1) it was said in the first place, and (2) I was stupid enough to stick around after I heard it.
I really, really hated FWC. It was the most miserable 3 months of my life. Those poor kids! (By the way, I flatly refused to carry a spoon and I really did not want other people beating on my kid, though I think he got walloped on a frequent basis anyway.)
WG
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Belle
Moynihan brags about flicking his kid on the ear when he was growing up. He proudly tells the story of Brian getting his hair cut when he was a toddler. When it was through, Moynihan told Brian to say, "Thank you" to the lady (another WC person).
Brian refused. Moynihan "flicked" him on the ear and told him to say "thank you". The poor WC girl had to stand there and couldn't leave until Brian "obeyed" his daddy.
They ended up standing there for nearly an hour with Brian getting his ear flicked over and over and over again until he finally said "thank you".
Made the WC girl behind on her schedule and late for something (which she probably got reamed for).
I don't have kids and I don't pretend to know how to handle them in every situation, but this seems a little outrageous and unnecessary to me. I think with kids, like with life, you have to pick your battles. But in TWI we had to "win" all the time, even if that meant it was at the expense of the children's well-being. :(
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Belle
Amen, Jim! BUT, naturally, there are some things you want an instance response for - like agility, rally, flyball, obedience, etc. and just plain good doggie manners, but I suspect that's not what you're talking about. Vixen and I are like a team. We go hiking through the woods quite a bit. She'll go ahead of me checking things out, smelling stuff hear and there, but will only go so far before circling back to see where I am and make eye contact with me. I'll tell her "good girl" and she'll take off again. If she finds a hole she wants to investigate, she'll stand at the entrance and wait for me to nod to her before she'll go in and I never trained or asked her to do that. We do that the whole time we're out and I think when the next Master Earthdog Trial comes up she's gonna kick bu++.
I've never, ever, ever hit Vixen, EVER. It's not necessary with positive reinforcement. But with dog training, the dog is always right - it's the human who's got the communication problem. If she messed on the carpet as a puppy, it was my fault for not watching her and paying attention. If she chewed a shoe it was my fault for leaving it where she could get it and/or for not having her bones out.
It also takes a great deal of time, patience and repetition. The more time you spend with your dog if you use positive training, the better you two will know each other and respect each other's limitations. There are a lot of things Vixen and I can now communicate with just eye contact or the slightest movement. I would suspect that the time, patience, repetition and positive reinforcement would work with children, but as someone mentioned before - you don't teach children to blindly obey, you want them to grow up to be rational, logical, thinking and mature adults.
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WordWolf
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WordWolf
Felt discussing dogs at HQ meant this should be bumped up...
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WordWolf
Someone mentioned this again...
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waysider
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Bolshevik
Wayfer child raising techniques come from a book on raising hunting dogs?
I'm sorry, but that's just hilarious.
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leafytwiglet
WordWolf THank you I hadn't gotten a chance to hunt it down yet!
Gakkkkk! Pardon the unintended PUN!
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Bolshevik
This dog book helps make things make a little more sense.
I brought this up, and people have heard of the book. Their first instinct is to defend Wierwille, of course. "He learned from others, yes we know blah blah blah . . ." :blink:
jees!!! this isn't a discussion on plagiarism . .
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Bolshevik
Cognitive Dissonant!!!
Damn, I forgot to say that . . .
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leafytwiglet
Bumping this up to the top again.
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JeffSjo
And here I was just thinking about religious groups who are trained like dogs this last weekend too, I'm serious.
I know a group of people (some of who are much younger) who know no other way to relate to authority figures other than responding to few sound bites that the leadership uses to very effectively lead them around by the nose.
I think that for people who know no other way of dealing with authority figures than responding to certain techniques with all the thinking of Pavlovs trained dogs they are bound to be ignorantly led around by whoever knows how to obtain firstly, their affection, then secondly, their unthinking obedience.
And most unfortunately to me, these trained individuals know no other way to percieve the events of the last few years other than following core beliefs that were deliberately planted in them by their trainers....(grumble, mumble, maybe even cuss a bit on my part.)
In my case, it seems that they have virtually no conception of basic honesty issues, and they have a very hard time dealing with simply directness.
And it seems that they cannot deal with people without automatically going along with the deliberate doubts thaty were skillfully implanted in them by their puppetmasters. They quickly are suckered into shutting out anyone who obviously goes against the grain of these things. And even if they don't realize it, they automatically discount anyone who questions those who they have given the power over their lives to be in effect, THEIR DOGTRAINERS.
My perception is that anyone who habitually leads people about like a TWI of RRF leader is revealed by their commands and the skill whereby they effectively control peoples' perception of reality by the way they lead people about exactly like a dog trainer leads about his dogs.
Fortunately for us; dogs do not have the ability to question whether or not they should allow people to lead them about in such a fashion, but we do.
And even leaders who seem to satisfy our needs and make us feel content are not immune to anyone eventually learning to decide not to allow themselves to be led about in such a fashion. But in my experience it is difficult to learn to think again for one's self. But the harm that will eventually and inevitably be done to those being led about exactly as a dog-in-training is much higher! It is worth the fight to first recognize the signs and then change.
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TrustAndObey
Seems the world isn't far behind with the same thought..
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/22/fashion/22dog.html
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chockfull
It doesn't really apply to kids, but I do love to watch Cesar Milan The Dog Whisperer. Some of his techniques are really cool. The funny part in this discussion is that he never does anything remotely similar to the beating of children with a wooden spoon when training dogs. So VPW's techniques are treating children more cruelly than dogs.
I'm sure VPW wanted to train kids up with a pack mentality, though. Follow the pack leader unquestioning.
I think just for fun and kicks we ought to come up with claims like the old "green card" for PFAL, except containing reality as opposed to hype. We could call it the "red card", after soccer.
Benefits on the "red card":
1) Builds obedience by treating your kids worse than an animal
2) Improves denial by hardening your conscience against scripture and common sense
3) Trains you how to control others
4) Learn to treat women like objects
5) Learn how to research the Bible to make it say whatever the BOD's current policy is.
6) Builds slavery by being under a landlord all your life.
7) Teaches you to opportunistically seek the death of wealthy relatives.
8) Improves teamwork by killing any sense of individualism.
There's a start.
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WordWolf
The book came up again...
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excathedra
yeah sorry, it was me :) it's nice to see all old posters but sad because i miss them
i think the end of the S-T-O-RRRRRR-Y is wierwille was a frocking dog lol
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JavaJane
I tried to read this - couldn't make it through the second page. So sad. Especially since I am a mom now. I am so so thankful we got out before she was born. I can't even imagine...
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outandabout
I got out before my daughter was born too. I was seven months pregnant.
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